Whats Wrong With Ns
panda_de_malheureux
Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24775Members
Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24775Members
<div class="IPBDescription">my 2 cents</div> If you don't want to read another 'omg i got killed' thread don't read this.
-The pattern in choosing a team.
---People choose teams based on who is on it and who was on the other team last game (since people tend to play aliens, rines, aliens etc). This goes for good players, clanners, admins, and noobies especially. With people already knowing which team is going to win its not hard to imagine that a lot of people will want to be on the winning team, and so we see the 3 rines, 1 alien, 11 rr-rine-portal situations. If people are so good shouldn't they play on the losing team for a challenge? No, they will want to play with good people because this is a team game. No one wants to hang with the noobie losers, not even noobies. The only solution to this it seems is to force everyone to go random, but this will then make the ready rooms obsolete, and that's not going to happen it seems. So there is no solution, the truth isn't out there.
-Melee vs Ranged attack
---Lets take a look at a, you may say source of ns, starcraft. The zergling is superior to the terran soldier (without upgrades). On the transition from AI to real people the devs thought: well lets make it slower since we don't want to make the rines sick of tracking a silly little zerg, and give it more hp/armour since you get two out of an egg in starcraft, and also make the rine weapons much better since they don't reload their guns to make up for it. Where they went wrong:
1) The skulk is too slow [it walks almost as slow as the marine for gods sake]
2) The marine weapons use ammo too quickly.
3) The zergs in starcraft had a lot of ranged attackers, not only melee ones. The hydralisk or fade had mad acid spit which should be almost impossible to miss with, compared to the 'winning the lottery' acid rocket.
4) Kickback, devs shouldn't drink that heavily when coding.
---Seeing as on average a marine can kill a skulk in about 2 seconds, this would mean that the skulk has less than that to get to the marine and bite him. Either lower the rate of fire of the weapons or make the aliens faster.
-Prostitutes
---The <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> is much more fun than the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> , and the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> is hell boring, let alone egging. So why do people ****, because it's fun and you live longer. Yes we all want to share the fun, but how do you achieve this? At certain times, don't know when, a player should be able to choose what to evolve to. A player with 10 score should have the option available to go fade for instance, not when they have the resources to do it. When the player chooses his upgrade, the hive will start creating one 'fade' for them. The player gets a process bar just like when they are egging except they can still play. When their body is ready they can suicide to spawn as the fade or run into the hive for a switch, letting a player in the spawn queue take their old body with upgrades. This new system will give people the incentive to kill, much like the hive should have it.
-The Alien Resource System
---Coupled with the above (experience = upgrade availability) suggestion, a new resource system will need to be in place, the same as the marine one. Only the player can only upgrade their alien if they have the experience to, so noobies will have the incentive to gorge and build things in good places to get score, and to be able to onos. Why not?, they earned it because they spent their time building, or killing buildings, or killing spacemarines.
-Gameplay
---There aren't enough tactics, mainly because there aren't enough options. More technologies, marine and alien. More complexity please, ns is like playing naughts and crosses with zerglings and spacemarines.
-Strategies
---Ok say we don't get new technologies, in that case there should at least be a counter to each strategy.
Strategy: IP rush
Counter: aliens to get res quickly and fade, or oc up hive to buy time.
Success Rate: 80%
Works Because: Ranged attack is currently too good, hives too defenceless.
Strategy: Shotgun rush
Counter: alien ambush, can work better with sc in good spot or ocs at hive.
Success Rate: 80%
Works Because: Shotgun availability makes the marines too good at the start.
Strategy: HA / JP rush
Counter: quick oni or fades.
Success Rate: 60%
Works Because: Aliens are still mostly useless skulks.
Strategy: Skulk rush
Counter: marines that can aim.
Success Rate: 80%
Works Because: Not counting this one because it depends on the team too much.
Strategy: Fatty rush
Counter: dont know of one yet, maybe sg rush and run around the other way and get hive.
Success Rate: 95%
Works Because: The ability to heal others and attack at the same time is too good.
Strategy: Fade rush
Counter: good shotgunners.
Success Rate: 70%
Works Because: Half the fades can distract the marines while the other half take out their res towers, they have to run out of shotguns sometime.
As you can see most of the counters are good teamwork, good communication, and guess what, these don't exist in public servers. None of these counters are an upgrade or technology, which they should be.
-The Hive
---It's a defenceless, large sack of ****. It doesn't do anything except provide upgrades and spawn aliens. In return you build numerous amounts of defenses, by the hive or at certain locations, to protect the hive. The hive is a person in a wheelchair holding your pepsi while people are throwing rocks at it, and you're trying to catch them to save your pepsi. You would think that this advanced and intelligent race that can upgrade themselves in a matter of minutes can upgrade the hive to make it not so ****, but you would be wrong. Im not suggesting how to make the hive better but just do, for the sake of humanity, or kharanity.
That's all I have, if you see something wrong or wish to rabble please do, i don't mind editing this post.
-The pattern in choosing a team.
---People choose teams based on who is on it and who was on the other team last game (since people tend to play aliens, rines, aliens etc). This goes for good players, clanners, admins, and noobies especially. With people already knowing which team is going to win its not hard to imagine that a lot of people will want to be on the winning team, and so we see the 3 rines, 1 alien, 11 rr-rine-portal situations. If people are so good shouldn't they play on the losing team for a challenge? No, they will want to play with good people because this is a team game. No one wants to hang with the noobie losers, not even noobies. The only solution to this it seems is to force everyone to go random, but this will then make the ready rooms obsolete, and that's not going to happen it seems. So there is no solution, the truth isn't out there.
-Melee vs Ranged attack
---Lets take a look at a, you may say source of ns, starcraft. The zergling is superior to the terran soldier (without upgrades). On the transition from AI to real people the devs thought: well lets make it slower since we don't want to make the rines sick of tracking a silly little zerg, and give it more hp/armour since you get two out of an egg in starcraft, and also make the rine weapons much better since they don't reload their guns to make up for it. Where they went wrong:
1) The skulk is too slow [it walks almost as slow as the marine for gods sake]
2) The marine weapons use ammo too quickly.
3) The zergs in starcraft had a lot of ranged attackers, not only melee ones. The hydralisk or fade had mad acid spit which should be almost impossible to miss with, compared to the 'winning the lottery' acid rocket.
4) Kickback, devs shouldn't drink that heavily when coding.
---Seeing as on average a marine can kill a skulk in about 2 seconds, this would mean that the skulk has less than that to get to the marine and bite him. Either lower the rate of fire of the weapons or make the aliens faster.
-Prostitutes
---The <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> is much more fun than the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> , and the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> is hell boring, let alone egging. So why do people ****, because it's fun and you live longer. Yes we all want to share the fun, but how do you achieve this? At certain times, don't know when, a player should be able to choose what to evolve to. A player with 10 score should have the option available to go fade for instance, not when they have the resources to do it. When the player chooses his upgrade, the hive will start creating one 'fade' for them. The player gets a process bar just like when they are egging except they can still play. When their body is ready they can suicide to spawn as the fade or run into the hive for a switch, letting a player in the spawn queue take their old body with upgrades. This new system will give people the incentive to kill, much like the hive should have it.
-The Alien Resource System
---Coupled with the above (experience = upgrade availability) suggestion, a new resource system will need to be in place, the same as the marine one. Only the player can only upgrade their alien if they have the experience to, so noobies will have the incentive to gorge and build things in good places to get score, and to be able to onos. Why not?, they earned it because they spent their time building, or killing buildings, or killing spacemarines.
-Gameplay
---There aren't enough tactics, mainly because there aren't enough options. More technologies, marine and alien. More complexity please, ns is like playing naughts and crosses with zerglings and spacemarines.
-Strategies
---Ok say we don't get new technologies, in that case there should at least be a counter to each strategy.
Strategy: IP rush
Counter: aliens to get res quickly and fade, or oc up hive to buy time.
Success Rate: 80%
Works Because: Ranged attack is currently too good, hives too defenceless.
Strategy: Shotgun rush
Counter: alien ambush, can work better with sc in good spot or ocs at hive.
Success Rate: 80%
Works Because: Shotgun availability makes the marines too good at the start.
Strategy: HA / JP rush
Counter: quick oni or fades.
Success Rate: 60%
Works Because: Aliens are still mostly useless skulks.
Strategy: Skulk rush
Counter: marines that can aim.
Success Rate: 80%
Works Because: Not counting this one because it depends on the team too much.
Strategy: Fatty rush
Counter: dont know of one yet, maybe sg rush and run around the other way and get hive.
Success Rate: 95%
Works Because: The ability to heal others and attack at the same time is too good.
Strategy: Fade rush
Counter: good shotgunners.
Success Rate: 70%
Works Because: Half the fades can distract the marines while the other half take out their res towers, they have to run out of shotguns sometime.
As you can see most of the counters are good teamwork, good communication, and guess what, these don't exist in public servers. None of these counters are an upgrade or technology, which they should be.
-The Hive
---It's a defenceless, large sack of ****. It doesn't do anything except provide upgrades and spawn aliens. In return you build numerous amounts of defenses, by the hive or at certain locations, to protect the hive. The hive is a person in a wheelchair holding your pepsi while people are throwing rocks at it, and you're trying to catch them to save your pepsi. You would think that this advanced and intelligent race that can upgrade themselves in a matter of minutes can upgrade the hive to make it not so ****, but you would be wrong. Im not suggesting how to make the hive better but just do, for the sake of humanity, or kharanity.
That's all I have, if you see something wrong or wish to rabble please do, i don't mind editing this post.
Comments
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Real men go random team <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol... i usually join the team with less, or in a tie, i go random... (unless the server rules state that crap about mainres getting the extra man)
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Thanks! Always great to realise just how good the current version of NS is.
In a more constructive format: agree on the stacked teams bit, skulk vs marine is fine as it is at the start (hint to version91x: don't charge them head-on) but could use some improvement later on in the game, the res system is just fine IMO, your listed strategies are too limited and the percentages usually much too high and finally I love the hive the way it is (sure, you might be able to upgrade it to defend itself, but can just as well place chambers around them to accomplish the same).
-I like the "progress bar" method of evolving idea. You should be able to cancel though, at the cost of some of your res (maybe half?). This would mean that if you hadn't actually made any progress towards the evolution and you cancel, you wouldn't lose any res. Yay!
-I disagree when you say skulks are too slow.
-I agree the aliens need more ranged attacks. Yes I know, they're meant to be melee, but still. Something more powerful than spikes but not as powerfull as acid rocket perhaps. A 6th lifeform based on ranged attacks would be interesting....
-I agree that the hive should have some form of defence.
The main thing I see "wrong" with NS is that aliens have no effective siege weapons aside from onos. Marines have sieges and grenade launchers, what do aliens have? Bilebomb? Don't make me laugh. The fact that you have to be a gorge to use it instantly cripples it's usefulness for base-busting (although it is handy for rt hunting) since if the aliens are doing well enough to be attacking the marine base, the marines PROBABLY have hmgs, shotties, turrets, and/or gls, all of which are not fun to face if you happen to be a gorge.
My solution? Give the fade his bilebomb back. He can actually take enough damage to get a few bilebombs off. Give the gorge web at 2 hives in bilebomb's place so that webs actually DO something, and give the gorge primal scream instead of the lerk. The gorge is a supporting alien after all. The lerk? Bite, spores, umbra, spikes, but make spikes better to compensate for being a 3-hive ability.
You may think primal scream on a gorge is silly, but ask yourself: Is it more silly than a lerk with primal scream?
It depends on the server, though I agree stacking happens often. It's not a NS problem but community one. Solutions: Change server or install auto-random plugin
-Melee vs Ranged attack
NS isn't based on starcraft.
1. You're not supposed to run up to a marine down a long hall but skulk (move in a stealthy manner) him and get advantage of your close combat skills (which is where the problem is actually if you ask me) Solutions: don't change speed, change style of play.
2. I don't get it, do you mean he empties his clip too fast? I agree he shoots down the skulk too fast, even in close combat. If you mean 300 LMG bullets are gone fast, then no. They have plenty ammo. I don't really know the exact amount of hits you need to kill a skulk, but you should get an average of 2 skulks per lmg clip. That's 12 skulks. That means there's 12 skulks against you without you dying once. Multiply this by the number of people on your team and you got a problem with aliens.
3. The zergs aren't the kharaa.
4. what?
Overall: I agree that a skulk is often killed too close in a combat situation, even close combat. That's because you can still deliver damage in close combat whereas the skulk needs at least a half second (often more) to close the distance before the first of at least 3 bites (considering armor)
-Prostitutes
-the onos isn't more fun than the skulk: that's a question of opinion. I prefer skulk. Gorges aren't boring. Hives, DCs, RTs and thus all the economy are thanks to that fatty. Sure he doesn't fight, but there's more to the game than that. Why don't you try to help advance by healing skulks who skirmish here and there?
For your idea, I don't really know but if you want a mostly combat experience, go play NS:C
-The Alien Resource System
It's being done. It's not at all like your idea. you're basically encourageing res **** for experienced people and gorging for the new players.
-Gameplay
It's HL. NS is close enough to the limit to not go beyond. I agree that sometimes strats aren't diverse enough, but it's a game that's supposed to be accessible and fun, not a full strategy game where your mind is ready to explode. Adding more diversity is quite nice though, if it's possible.
-Strategies
I won't check on that one... I don't know where you're getting your numbers.
-The Hive
no, the hive makes you spawn, gives you a chamber, an additional weapon and heals. Its location is often favorable for alien combat, especially with the hive regen. Some exceptions I agree, but you shouldn't allow full control of a hive by a marine team. Something I would like to see, however, is hives that are influenced by the chambers somehow, like growing a carapace, working faster or developing scent of fear near the hive.
A normal game of NS is almost always exactly the same. The only differences are what team has better players, and everything... There are no real different strategies. You either do a shotgun/IP/mine rush at the begining, or you just upgrade and get an HA train/JP rush started.
There is way too little to do, and for 99% of the game you are a light marine with an lmg, or a skulk.
The one thing that saves it is the challenge that comes from the difference in weapons.
Alien needs to ambush or just manage to get really close and kill really fast, while rines need to keep their distance, dodge, and aim.
I think the most fun thing I've ever done in NS was a Skulk bite vs Rine knife. (with me as the rine with lvl3 armor and a jp)
It's all about moving to make them miss you, while still being able to spin and hit them as they pass. So much fun...
The reason CS has all those mods is because of two things. They have a much larger user base, and because people got broed of the same old, same old, and felt the need to change the game to keep their intrest higher.
I have no Idea what could be done to NS to make it less linear, but something should be done.
The game is too focused on resources.
yup
or i just join the most likely to lose
i think your playing on the wrong server
fade is not hard to hit with your acid rockets
2nd. this is not starcraft
you named some counters of these tactics...........and the counter attack
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see waths wrong with beeing a lmg marine or a skulk. but if you are a skulk 99% of the game maybe you should stop saiving for onos and go gorge and help the team.
ps. I think the sneaky skulk is more fun to play than the big clumsy onos
your'e welcome.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree when you say skulks are too slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im comparing this to starcraft, the zerglings are way faster and take more bites to kill, imo this would be better than the current.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is it more silly than a lerk with primal scream?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure is <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> trying to balance NS by lessening it's need for teamwork pretty much kills the heart of an RTS/FPS, imho<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well i would like to see the heart of starcraft, the counter to everything, the paper-scissors-rock scenario brought into ns, teamplay is still a big part of all this because you can only be one alien at a time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont see waths wrong with beeing a lmg marine or a skulk. but if you are a skulk 99% of the game maybe you should stop saiving for onos and go gorge and help the team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
starcraft with zerglings vs rines vs whatever the protoss basic guy is, cs with ak vs colt, dod with kar vs rine rifle, yeh it gets boring.
as for the server, i play around the world
Stop comparing with starcraft! And if you do decide to stay in your perspective, the point IS that marine != skulk, and thus less ranged attacks and thus ambush.
(basic protoss = zealot)
2) A: The Skulk is not too slow at all... it is at least 2x as fast as a Marine, if not more. I think you need to play the game more before making such comments.
B: Then tap the fire button. Boom, they magically fire slower.
C: I suggest you play some Quake3, TFC, or any other FPS with a rocket launcher. What do the good players do? They dont try to hit the player directly, because you dont have a good chance of doing so - the projecticle is too slow (this is why heal spray > spit for killing marines, but thats a whole different story). Anyway, experienced players jump and aim at the ground by the marine, or aim for things nearby him.
D: Skulks are meant to ambush and surprise, not charge head on like idiots. They dont have the HP and armor for that. If you wanna charge head on, youll get your chance as an Onos. If you need to close the distance fast, leap is a good attack at the cost of some energy and control in the air.
3) I disagree 1000%. If the res flow is fast enough, I Gorge and stay one the entire game, because building is fun. Being a skulk is fun to, dropping down from the ceiling and ambushing marines.
As far as the evolving thing, I disagree. Advanced lifeforms have counters, yes, but the ultimate counter is to kill the egg. And the marines are lacking on counters. As far as cancelling evolutions, that doesnt even really make sense. Im assuming in that egg the alien is changing its form, so cancelling a skulk-lerk evolution halfway would make you pop out as a sort of skulk-lerkling, which would be weird. (OMG IT HOVARS WITHOUT FLAPPING <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
4) I honestly do not understand your logic at all, so im not gonna touch this.
5) I agree with you there. More tech options would be nice, but the game plays fine with what we have so far. Lets get NS 3.0 out the door before adding new stuff, eh?
6) Everything with you is rush rush rush. That may work for starcraft, but it doesnt work at all for NS unless you have a coordinated team versus and uncoordinated one. Why dont I just explain the effective counters to all your rushes?
IP Rush - Skulks AMBUSHING, an early Lerk to spore
Shotgun Rush - Skulks ambushing may get a few, but Lerks completely pwn LA shotties.
HA / JP Rush - How is this a rush? Both together? Thatll require a lot of time and res, by which time even a bad alien team will have advanced lifeforms. Lerks take care of the JPs, Onii stomping the HAs while the rest of the team chews them to pieces.
Skulk Rush - If marines cant aim, then theyll lose. Im not denying that. But the nature of marine start is an open area (see lost and eclipse) so marines can exploit their range advantage, which as you said earlier, is too good because skulks are slow. A pack or two of mines does wonders as well.
Fatty Rush - Shotguns and medpacks. Gorgies cant heal shotty wounds that quickly, and cant do damage fast enough medpacks cant counter. Expensive for both teams, but marines come out a bit ahead. Again, mines do wonders.
Fade Rush - Again, how is this a rush? And no, they dont have to run out of shotguns sometime - there as a potentially infinite amount of res to gain.
And all your success rates are very high.
Your trying to make a NS a complete RTS experience... its not. Theres half FPS in there as well. Since you seem so fond of starcraft, by all means, play it. But NS is completely different than starcraft, so trying to make similiar comparisons with the different mechanics of each game is silly.
I really don't see the use of that. He stated his points, we stated ours. We didn't just kindly ask him to SUYF and live with it, we just said that what he believes is right, we believe is wrong.
---Lets take a look at a, you may say source of ns, starcraft. The zergling is superior to the terran soldier (without upgrades). On the transition from AI to real people the devs thought: well lets make it slower since we don't want to make the rines sick of tracking a silly little zerg, and give it more hp/armour since you get two out of an egg in starcraft, and also make the rine weapons much better since they don't reload their guns to make up for it. Where they went wrong:
1) The skulk is too slow [it walks almost as slow as the marine for gods sake]
2) The marine weapons use ammo too quickly.
3) The zergs in starcraft had a lot of ranged attackers, not only melee ones. The hydralisk or fade had mad acid spit which should be almost impossible to miss with, compared to the 'winning the lottery' acid rocket.
4) Kickback, devs shouldn't drink that heavily when coding.
---Seeing as on average a marine can kill a skulk in about 2 seconds, this would mean that the skulk has less than that to get to the marine and bite him. Either lower the rate of fire of the weapons or make the aliens faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is flawed and before anyone else attacks it, I'd like to make a more effective note of this:
Okay, in starcraft, one zergling attacking one marine will die. Two zerglings will kill the marine.
However, starcraft did not have ambushes, surprise attacks from behind. So it can be argued that the wall walking 'sneakiness' of skulks compensates for their weak armor.
However, then the developers decide marines need MOTION TRACKING! A map-wide ability to see every aliens movement! This effectively NEGATES their <b>only advantage</b> of speed, stealth, and sneak attacks. THAT is the flaw.
As for Weggy, marines are NOT short of counters AT ALL. Aliens have less then 5 <b>hard</b> counters. Cloaking vs Motion Tracking, Stomp vs HA, carapace, and Bilebomb vs cramped bases. Marines have the following hard counters:
Passive Scan and Active Scan Observatories, Motion Tracking, HMGs, Siege, Grenade Launchers, Weapon/Armor upgrades, Welders. There is NOTHING the alien team can bring to bear against the marines that has no counter. The same can not be said for aliens at ALL.
Servers with 32 people are just stupid it **** up game play royally and I think alot of you guys who want to *fix* these problems come from unbalanced nub servers probably with stupid **** mods.
I swear I played on Voogru yesterday and it **** with my rate and made my choke go to hell WTH is that.
Anyway most people are nubs and always will be this isn't a bad thing maybe your busy maybe you don't like the game that much maybe your just an idiot however there are people who know this game much better then you trying to fix it so shush eh.
And stop saying the game has to be like starcraft my god.....
Servers with 32 people are just stupid it **** up game play royally and I think alot of you guys who want to *fix* these problems come from unbalanced nub servers probably with stupid **** mods.
I swear I played on Voogru yesterday and it **** with my rate and made my choke go to hell WTH is that.
Anyway most people are nubs and always will be this isn't a bad thing maybe your busy maybe you don't like the game that much maybe your just an idiot however there are people who know this game much better then you trying to fix it so shush eh.
And stop saying the game has to be like starcraft my god..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah and a vet comes, as per custom, to nicely 'explain things' because, god damn, you can only TRUELY known game balance if you're in the veteran program. It doesn't matter if your main server is regulation 7v7. It doesn't matter if your server is 90% of the time full of very skilled regulars. It doesn't even matter that one of the veteran clans actually <b>consists of those regulars</b>. If you don't have the veteran icon, then you're a <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->stupid... nub.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Thanks for that insightful, productive note Squishy. For a veteran you sure are smart! No wonder I can't get in a clan! I mean, every server MUST have lerklift and handheld siege plugins, right? It's part of being a pub! It's impossible to have a pub with less then 32 players! I've never noticed that before! WOW!
Say Squish, wait a second! Somethings wrong! The marine counters cost resources, you say? Hmm... let me take a look at this... it seems here that for every tick of resources, the commander gets resources per res node, and it only goes to one person. But... for aliens, you have to take that number and divide it by 7. So that means that for every 100 resources the aliens make off one node, the commander could have 700! And... hey here's another nugget of information... almost all marine counters cost resources <b>once</b>. Gee... I mean it's really balanced with 7 people can cash in on weapon, armor, motion tracking upgrades all at once for the ENTIRE GAME just by spending a meager amount of resources on it once.
Man why didn't I see that before! God, getting that onos with all upgrades at two hives is SO much cheaper then weapons 3 which can send the onos running for his life in just a couple seconds of sustained fire! Especially since if the onos dies, he has to wait forever regestating, where if an HA dies he instantly is back in action!
And gee, that motion tracking... yeah, I mean it makes PERFECT SENSE balance-wise. I mean here you give the aliens sneaky skills... you give them wall walking, vents, even weapons to help spring ambushes, and god, and you base their ENTIRE BALANCE around the use of those skills... then gee, who would ever think it's unbalanced that you give the other team a map-wide upgrade that lasts the entire game that effectively ELIMINATES that advantage, PERMANENTLY. <b>And for even MORE balanced fun...</b> you give the aliens an ability to COUNTER Motion Tracking with cloaking... but here's the kicker. You ready? This is so funny, it HAD to be an intentional joke.
Okay sit down, here, this is real funny. You give the aliens cloaking to counter motion tracking... but... hee hee... but... you give the observatory an ability to counter cloaking for free! HHahahahahahahahah!!!! That's like... heh... getting in a knife fight with a guy, then giving him a broadsword to fight you with, but only if you get a shotgun!
Servers with 32 people are just stupid it **** up game play royally and I think alot of you guys who want to *fix* these problems come from unbalanced nub servers probably with stupid **** mods.
I swear I played on Voogru yesterday and it **** with my rate and made my choke go to hell WTH is that.
Anyway most people are nubs and always will be this isn't a bad thing maybe your busy maybe you don't like the game that much maybe your just an idiot however there are people who know this game much better then you trying to fix it so shush eh.
And stop saying the game has to be like starcraft my god..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah and a vet comes, as per custom, to nicely 'explain things' because, god damn, you can only TRUELY known game balance if you're in the veteran program. It doesn't matter if your main server is regulation 7v7. It doesn't matter if your server is 90% of the time full of very skilled regulars. It doesn't even matter that one of the veteran clans actually <b>consists of those regulars</b>. If you don't have the veteran icon, then you're a <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->stupid... nub.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Thanks for that insightful, productive note Squishy. For a veteran you sure are smart! No wonder I can't get in a clan! I mean, every server MUST have lerklift and handheld siege plugins, right? It's part of being a pub! It's impossible to have a pub with less then 32 players! I've never noticed that before! WOW!
Say Squish, go swallow a bullet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now now ladies, can't we all get along?
Damn straight
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True now, but will lerks own without spikes in 3.0?
btw whoever said ns is not like starcraft you obviosuly are playing the wrong game, this is ns, not cs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) I honestly do not understand your logic at all, so im not gonna touch this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My logic is simple, the better the player the more he can achieve for the team, and so the more upgrades are available to them (because the hive likes them the most). The noobies will not go onos because they arent skilled enough as skulk, lerk and fade. Logical enough?
As for the ambushing theories, if you haven't noticed a skilled sidejumping marine can move almost as fast as a skulk (to survive long enough to reload a clip). The jumping off the ceiling ideas are stupid because any nub can look up and shoot a skulk falling. The only ambush in ns is when the marine is preoccupied shooting something else, but this means that the marine is aware of enemy activity so this makes an ambush a frontal attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Those counters cost res, an aliens goal is res control. In 2.01 with broken fades aliens have a slight advantage in this game 6-7 ppl which is the most balanced setup. then 8 players marines marines have a slight advantage and the more people you get the more marine favored it is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this was addressed to the originator of the post who was indicating that marines were way overpowered which leads me to believe he is A) a nub or B) plays on a large server possible 32v32
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Servers with 32 people are just stupid it **** up game play royally and I think alot of you guys who want to *fix* these problems come from unbalanced nub servers probably with stupid **** mods.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence that. Me having a general rant about A) Giant servers with **** mods for instance well I won't name names..... Anyway most people who see these balance issues are doing something wrong because many of them don't exist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I swear I played on Voogru yesterday and it **** with my rate and made my choke go to hell WTH is that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A rant of mine I dislike Voogru server did I mention that? Anyway I fail to see what this has to do with you to provoke your ire. Misguided ire.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And stop saying the game has to be like starcraft my god.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok self explanatory yes?
Now this is the part I believe you took exception to
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway most people are nubs and always will be this isn't a bad thing maybe your busy maybe you don't like the game that much maybe your just an idiot however there are people who know this game much better then you trying to fix it so shush eh.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My being better then you has nothing to do with being a vet it has to do with me being better then you at this game Now I don't pretend this makes me superior in anyway in real life or even morally superior in this game however what I say is true although I admit rude.
When you inevitably reply please explain to me why I shouldn't believe that the majority of pubbers are nubs? Its not because their pubbers its because I have played against them and they arn't good and don't know what their doing. The same with many many new vet clans their nubs to even though their vets.
However if Ham or eR or Envy or dn` (or some others) got on your server they would easily have more kills then any other 2 people at any given time and thats their worst players. Napalm and Chicken would most likely have more then any other 4. At the same time they know the balance issues better then most people the maps better and everything else to do with ns.
Now for your post
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah and a vet comes, as per custom, to nicely 'explain things' because, god damn, you can only TRUELY known game balance if you're in the veteran program. It doesn't matter if your main server is regulation 7v7. It doesn't matter if your server is 90% of the time full of very skilled regulars. It doesn't even matter that one of the veteran clans actually consists of those regulars. If you don't have the veteran icon, then you're a <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not sure how vet got a bad connoition on it but come on man what is that. Im not saying these things as a vet because theres no difference between a vet and a pubber if I see you as a nub then i'll call you a nub. Rennex and Meb your nubs. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> See now Shampoo would be a better player then you or most people regardless of the fact that he's a vet or not. You could take his icon and he would still own people.
As for regulation 7v7 actually its 6v6 but close enough so doesn't matter. Now full of skilled players? People have said this before and i'll say it again for them Pub style gameplay and Clan style is very different. Now in a pub if you com like you would in a clan even if your really good you will still lose because the clan method requires very practiced cohesion.
This isn't to say pub players cannot be good. An old SiD member the ripper was an average pubber but became insanely good after scrimming and practacing with the clan for a month. It just means you haven't practiced like you would need to. Now you may argue this point but have you played in a very competitive match? Now ive pubbed and done that so who's in a better position to judge?
Ok having a vet clan on your server means nothing one way or the other. And honestly like ive said before there are many vet nubs now. And get off the omg your a vet your evil thing once again it means nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for that insightful, productive note Squishy. For a veteran you sure are smart! No wonder I can't get in a clan! I mean, every server MUST have lerklift and handheld siege plugins, right? It's part of being a pub! It's impossible to have a pub with less then 32 players! I've never noticed that before! WOW!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get off the vet thing please it gets old. So you've been trying to get in a clan and can't? Honest advice generally its aim that needs to be practiced. I never said all Pubs are 32 players or that all servers had retarded mods I said that many people were regulars on these type of servers and then suggested balance fixes. You would be just a much a nub if you were a vet and did that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Say Squish, wait a second! Somethings wrong! The marine counters cost resources, you say? Hmm... let me take a look at this... it seems here that for every tick of resources, the commander gets resources per res node, and it only goes to one person. But... for aliens, you have to take that number and divide it by 7. So that means that for every 100 resources the aliens make off one node, the commander could have 700! And... hey here's another nugget of information... almost all marine counters cost resources once. Gee... I mean it's really balanced with 7 people can cash in on weapon, armor, motion tracking upgrades all at once for the ENTIRE GAME just by spending a meager amount of resources on it once.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok one, thank you for the explanation but I've already got the general idea. Two are you trying to say you think rines are overpowered? I didn't think so but I read through it a second time and it seems like you are although some of the sarcasm is hard to get through.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Man why didn't I see that before! God, getting that onos with all upgrades at two hives is SO much cheaper then weapons 3 which can send the onos running for his life in just a couple seconds of sustained fire! Especially since if the onos dies, he has to wait forever regestating, where if an HA dies he instantly is back in action!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point about the res thing and res control... The marine should never get that stuff and even if they do an onos with stomp is a very adequate counter to HA if you play it properly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And gee, that motion tracking... yeah, I mean it makes PERFECT SENSE balance-wise. I mean here you give the aliens sneaky skills... you give them wall walking, vents, even weapons to help spring ambushes, and god, and you base their ENTIRE BALANCE around the use of those skills... then gee, who would ever think it's unbalanced that you give the other team a map-wide upgrade that lasts the entire game that effectively ELIMINATES that advantage, PERMANENTLY. And for even MORE balanced fun... you give the aliens an ability to COUNTER Motion Tracking with cloaking... but here's the kicker. You ready? This is so funny, it HAD to be an to be an intentional joke.
Okay sit down, here, this is real funny. You give the aliens cloaking to counter motion tracking... but... hee hee... but... you give the observatory an ability to counter cloaking for free! HHahahahahahahahah!!!! That's like... heh... getting in a knife fight with a guy, then giving him a broadsword to fight you with, but only if you get a shotgun! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok I have tried to keep this kind and gentle because some of the other forums people have asked but man ................
Look at the results from the average pub win for both sides. Aliens win as much if not more then they lose. Now for matchs and scrims aliens win probably 60 percent of games sooooo the aliens arn't to bad off?
Lets go through your balance issues step by step
Infact lets not tell ya what Your 7 regular pubbers vs my 6 omg get this vets! but heres the twist We will let you have MT and an obs then start the game from there with you guys in base and 100 res.
Then when you lose You'll see balance isn't an issue your strategy/skills are.
Im kinda interested to see what your reply is but really im not expecting one.
Thanks for wasting my freaking time showing you why your an idiot when everyone good could already see. But really I wanted you to be able to tell.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True now, but will lerks own without spikes in 3.0?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because they have spores. Spores are more effective than spikes when dealing with a group anyway.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True now, but will lerks own without spikes in 3.0?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because they have spores. Spores are more effective than spikes when dealing with a group anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the ultimate in AOE pwnage is Healspray... I saw two gorges kill 5 3/3 LA marines with shotguns with concentrated healspray (The hive, DCs, and MC helped). Plus the fact that healspray hurts you very inconspiculously (like spores)... heh.
@ Squishy - Most of what you said can be regarded true, however, just some issues (They sorta tie into each other so read them all first)
- While aliens may win more, there's other, more refined way to balance it. I don't believe I specifically said the marines were totally overpowered. Generally, they're far from it. However, the issue I have is that NS's balance is so <b>rediculously NOT FUN</b> it's a joke. If I'm losing to marines, it'd be nice to have fun still ambushing out of vents. Except I can't. If I budge an inch, this big blue 'KILL ME' icon shows up on my position for the next 10 seconds. All those issues about losing as aliens isn't fun is 100% the fault of the rediculous marine tech. Nearly every single feature of the alien tech tree has some hard counter. This means that losing as an alien is an exercise in futility, and thusly not-fun.
- I know there's a difference between skilled PUBBERS and skilled CLANNERS. However, note that I said skilled REGULARS. We all know each other. We all work together. If it weren't for the fact that some stupid cascade of noobs has overwhelmed the server in the past week, up until then every game was as white knuckle of clan demos I've seen. There's this guy that commands - I know every one of his strategies inside and out, and he knows me. He starts up the base, I'll help build a bit, then I run off and kill gorges / cap nodes, what have you. Quite a significant difference between cohesion that I know what needs to be done, and we both automatically know it's the right thing, and a regular guy who follows orders.
- That said, my first point and my second, whenever he commands marines usually win. With him commanding on 12 different days, 12 differnet times, with random teams of makeup of regulars, even with me on aliens, he pushes marines to victory 90% of the time, and as long as his first steps go without a hitch, it's guarenteed.
- Now, with those points out of the way, back to number one: When you're losing as a marine, comebacks are possible. VERY possible. I know firsthand what an HMG can do to an onos: I've successfully soloed them 20 feet away with artful manuvering and sheer luck. I can give you a testimonal from [NCR] that would include the words: "I enjoy watching him kill onos." With that comeback chance and PERMENANT, INSTANT UPGRADES, it's undoubtably true that marine endgame is overpowered. You see, when aliens are at their endgame, and marines are at theirs, there's a pretty high chance of marines pushing on. There's a horribly slim chance of the aliens winning. Part of that problem is the fact that alien tech is so damn FLAWED. You have to wait 100 res to go onos, and for some rediculous reason, the onos is able to be downed by 2 smurfs with LMGs. Sorry, that's WRONG. I've never seen a skulk kill an HA without there being 7 other skulks swarming as well. I've seen an onos get killed by a light marine with a level 2 10 res shotgun.
Do I need to continue? I don't think the flaw is in marines are completely overpowered... in some respects, yes they are. However, their early-game is a struggle, their midgame is even match, and their endgame is vastly overpowered. TECHNICALLY it evens out. But it still stands that their late tech is UNBALANCED: It doesn't work with, it doesn't FIT with the comparative alien game. What tech the marines do have is:
A) Not fun.
B) Not fair.
C) Not balanced.
1) Remove Motion Tracking. 100% gone. This is without a doubt the most not-fun ability ever. It makes skulks worthless. It ruins all chances of an ambush. Undoubtably the number 1 joykill. The only possible way I could see it balanced is if it only worked in a small area around the observatory. Furthermore, the motion blip should dissapear the EXACT second the critter stops moving, not point him out as a big bullseye for the next 12 minutes for stupid **** marines that are too dumb to look around.
2) Remove the Siege Cannon. If the marines can't crack a superior alien's hive defensive screen, they do not deserve ANY chance whatsoever to kill the hive. In fact, give the aliens a siege cannon. After all, they don't have electricity, bonsai bases, turrets, and mines with which to turtle down.
3) Require seperate upgrades for HA armor. Self explanatory. HA shouldn't be called heavy armor, it should be called 'I Win' armor. The marines armor level transgressions go from: "Little bit armor - Better armor - Good armor - freaking tank armor'. That's WAY too big a gap to bridge.
4) Maybe even require heavy armor, jetpacks, and guns to be 'built'. A short timer before it can be dropped. Once the alien offensive falls, it will NOT be coming back for quite a while. When the marine offensive falls, it can instantly spring back in full force. Aliens on attack is like having 7 people on attack. Marines on attack is like having 28, just in waves of 7.
Basically, marines should never have a chance, ever, to recover from a loss with a simple phasegate and spam of equipment. If they are, then they shouldn't have a chance to compensate for superior alien tactics with crap upgrades like motion tracking. If the aliens are successfully ambushing marines, they deserve to win, and marines deserve to lose, not suddenly say 'Oh gee that's not fair' and counter it. Finally, if the marines can't crack a hive using skill, it should never EVER be an option to let them shoot it through walls with a whopping 'expensive' 15 res siege cannon. That's just terrible game design.
This thread is about what's wrong with NS. That's how I see it. I don't agree with version91.x or whatever his name is completely but that's my opinion.
And squish, as for the whole vet thing, the old vets set a GREAT sterling reputation of being elitist, self-centered ****, generally famous with their visits to threads about balance and screaming that because they're in a clan and the complainer isn't, it meant he was a stupid-****-headed counter-strike pub not even worthy to wipe their ****. I don't expect, nor have I ever been shown any reason to, change that opinion.
I know I sorta bounce around points here, but to sum up:
1) Marines are underpowered at Game Phase 1.
2) Marines are spot-on at Game Phase 2. They could stand to have more expensive level 3 weapon/armor upgrades to keep them from showing up at about 5 minutes...
3) Marine end game is ****. It's overpowered, it's stupid, it compensates unfairly for superior tactics and skill on the alien team. They might as well give them an aimbot upgrade. It would be no different.
... how so? How can it possibly be even close to marine speed? You have trouble catching up with a marine walking backwards?
<b>2) The marine weapons use ammo too quickly.</b>
... uhm. No? It's rare to use an entire clip to kill a skulk... if you can aim.
The zergs in starcraft faced marines that had perfect aim, and did a set amount of damage per shot. NS is completely different. That is not what the NS devs thought.
<b>3) The zergs in starcraft had a lot of ranged attackers, not only melee ones. The hydralisk or fade had mad acid spit which should be almost impossible to miss with, compared to the 'winning the lottery' acid rocket.</b>
Don't tell me... the acid rocket sucks because you can not aim it? Last I checked a hydralisk couldn't stand a chance against more then 2 marines...
<b>-Prostitutes</b>
Actually not a bad idea, except it just makes people want to kill more, and the game's about teamwork, not fragfestting.
<b>-Gameplay</b>
There are plenty of possibilities... you refuse to try them. Examples:
Have you ever relocated to a strategic area with no resource node, i.e. system waypointing in veil?
Have you ever lerk rushed a marine team by going lerk in the vent by the marine base?
Have you ever jet pack rushed?
Have you ever neglected home resources and attacked enemy res towers ASAP?
try it...
<b>Strategy: IP rush</b>
You mean your team can't hear an ip being built and rush it immediately, while spawning in quite quickly, right next to the new ips?
<b>Strategy: Shotgun rush</b>
Once again... this works a lot because people are too stupid to come to base. Counter: 1 sc. GG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Works Because: Aliens are still mostly useless skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they can have enough HA to defeat a team of skulks and the hive, and you can't muster up enough resources to get an onos or two (often one isn't enough), and most importantly, you don't have a second hive, then the game is theirs, fair and square.
<b>Strategy: Skulk rush</b>
and skulks that can skulk...
<b>Strategy: Fatty rush</b>
shotties + mines at base = gg.
<b>Strategy: Fade rush</b>
true, not even clannies have a good counter to this lol.
Hive: So is the command center...
in conclusion: Just because you can't play skulk or marine well, doesn't mean others can't.
P.S. Teflon is a tard, ignore him. All the flaming in the world won't convince him that he isn't the messiah of all non-veterans, and that he will not be revolutionizing the NS community as we know it.
Actually not a bad idea, except it just makes people want to kill more, and the game's about teamwork, not fragfestting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens - Fragfest
Marines - Teamwork.
Please keep your facts strait.
and yes, if the aliens are supposed to be all sneaky then why do the marines have something that completely counter the entire alien theme? (was it a cruel joke against the alien players in a pre-1.0 release beta that was never fixed? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> )