Sorry, Teoh, but I can not agree. You cite Tomb Raider - well, TR consisted of jumping- and lever puzzles, as well, yet, POP does not require you to time your jumps to the pixel, making for a by far more smooth experience right there. Additionally, the 'trial and error' moment is being quite nicely implemented via the rewind functionality, taking a lot of frustration from my shoulders and keeping the fourth wall - and thus also the atmosphere - unharmed. Many of the later puzzles are quite good (I'm thinking of the Halls of Learning here), and the fact that you don't need twenty keys to control your character isn't exactely something despiseable in my opinion.
Both Tomb Raider and Sands of Time attempt to bring a much older style of gameplay - that of the good old jump&run - into the third dimension. Despising the one because the older of the two failed in this isn't exactely doing it justice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, Teoh, but I can not agree. You cite Tomb Raider - well, TR consisted of jumping- and lever puzzles, as well, yet, POP does not require you to time your jumps to the pixel, making for a by far more smooth experience right there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both feature a near identical style of gameplay, you cite POP's simpler jumping system as an improvement that benefits the game by making it less frustrating.
Here's the problem: Simplification is the very last thing i would ever suggest as an 'improvement' to Tomb Raider. The lack of control and simplification of jumping and movement in Tomb Raider is what makes it so dull to play in the first place. POP takes it to the next level by removing even any small slither of timing that may have been required by TR. Any jump in the game is performed perfectly every time by simply pressing 2 keys in combination. Don't worry about timing, don't worry about precise control, you may as well just be selecting the move you wish to perform from as a menu as this is effectively what the control system limits you to. And so every jumping puzzle in the game is purely a question of figuring out which move you need to perform - Usually by trial and error with use of the rewind feature. You praise this for being less frustrating, i condemn it for being simplistic and shallow.
You liken the genre to the classic 2d platformer - what POP lacks is exactly what made those platformers great. They may only be 2d, they may only require 1 jump button, left, right and down, but sonic and mario gave you control, and they forced you to excersise it. You have absolute control over your speed, your height, your movement through the air. I'm sure you've seen a few of the speed run videos showing player's demonstrating extreme skill in mario and similar games - you will NEVER see a similar video for Tomb Raider, POP or the majority of games released in the last 4 years, because these games dumb down all execution and control of the game to the point where anyone of any ability immediately has as much control over the game as they will ever have, with no room for advancement or refinement of skills. POP leaves me cold, because even only a few minutes into the game i could see that the control system and the fighting system have no depth, none whatsoever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the fact that you don't need twenty keys to control your character isn't exactely something despiseable in my opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the number of keys, not at all - It's what you do with them that counts ;)
There are no comparisons to be drawn between POP and mario, they are entirely different genres, although the inadequate genre labels we have at the moment will not reflect this. Their differences have nothing to do with the number of dimensions they use or the year of their release - the difference is what they require of the player.
Mario is not a puzzle game, it is a game of control and execution, as practically every platformer of the era was.
POP is a <b>pure</b> puzzle game, because it simplifies control and execution to the point where they are no longer a part of the challenge. POP sees accurate control and execution as an unwanted burden of the interface, something to be minimised and reduced so that the player can focus on their real 'game' which consists entirely of weak trial and error puzzles. If POP is attempting to be a platformer, then it is ignoring the fact that the greatest examples of the genre are built entirely around the 'burden' they have tried to remove.
Oh my, we're down to our old argument. I do not <i>care</i> how difficult it is to master a jump, or whether a speed run based on a series of exploits - that's what most of them are, after all - is possible, I care for the feeling I loved when doing a flawless round through a Mario level, that pure drive going through you. Many of PoPs levels do that for me, thanks to perfectly laid out pacing, good graphics and ambience, non-restrictive controls (I <i>love</i> running along a wall towards an enemy and chopping him down with my feet still not touching the ground), and great level design. Is PoP difficult? No. Is it simple? Possibly, although I'd advise you to play further, later stages are just not half as simplified as you make the game out to be. The only question important to me is whether it's fun - and I can answer that with a heartily "yes".
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
HANDSPRING!
I love jumping over people, so here was my strategy:
Take out each of the other zombies before going after the king (this sin't THAT hard)
Now, you will auto target him. Do a quick strafe (left or right, what ever is comfterable I use left) Then run at him and jump, this will make you vault over him. when you are in the air spam attack and you should hit him atleast once. Now repeat this.
The strafe is there so that he wont block as often. The jump is there b/c he can't attack when you do this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
he is actualy a piece of caek (or pai if you prefer) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh my, we're down to our old argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, yea i was getting flashbacks to a certain thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do not <i>care</i> how difficult it is to master a jump, or whether a speed run based on a series of exploits - that's what most of them are, after all - is possible, I care for the feeling I loved when doing a flawless round through a Mario level, that pure drive going through you. Many of PoPs levels do that for me, thanks to perfectly laid out pacing, good graphics and ambience, non-restrictive controls (I <i>love</i> running along a wall towards an enemy and chopping him down with my feet still not touching the ground), and great level design. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ignoring that little 'exploit' dig that you threw in there, what we have here is a difference in how each of us views the game, and what exactly we get out of it. I personally feel that your non-restrictive controls are extremely restrictive, and i would guess our different opinions come what we see and experience as we play the game:
From your perspective, you're a prince in an ancient palace, running across a wall swinging a sword.
From my perspective, i just pressed forwards and the action key (roughly together with no particular thought to timing or control) in order to perform a move that the current scene strictly requires me to perform.
Now if you can get caught up in the whole persian adventure thing and enjoy the game regardless of the fact that it offers basically no scope for expression and can barely be called interactive then more power to you, you'll be able to enjoy the current games market alot more than i will.
But i can't do that, because the whole storyline / immersion / wonderful visuals thing misses me completely. Thats not what i get out of a game at all, i find myself pretty much incapable of getting involved with computer game characters and a story line (can you blame me? I mean honestly look at POP and then watch a standard un-exceptional hollywood movie that most people would be expected to take mild interest in). To give you an example of what i get out of a game, what i constitute as 'fun' i'm going to bring up Quake 3, as we all know everyone loves examples using the quake series...
Q3 is a deathmatch game, it stresses alot of different attributes, one of which is movement ability, 1 subset of those movement abilities could be the circle strafe jump start, which would be a technique used to cover a large distance (or generate a large amount of speed) from a standing position in a single jump. To improve your circle strafe jump you would practice jumping increasingly large gaps in a single hop, pushing your accel ability further as you practiced to clear each jump. Training, and accomplishing this 1 type of jump, out of a subset of movement ability which is itself a subset of the different abilities tested by Q3, feels more rewarding to me than the entirity of POP that i have played so far (Which i'm guessing is just over half of it). Pulling off one of these jumps doesn't look impressive, certainly wouldn't capture the attention of an onlooker who didn't understand the game, doesn't involve princes, swords or acrobatics in exceedingly baggy trousers - but the satisfaction of landing that difficult jump trumps everything POP has had to offer me.
You realise - that if you look a bit deeper than the impressive backflips and all the wallrunning, everything you are or ever will do in POP is exactly what the game designer has pre-scripted for you to do in order to pass the section. The bounce off that pillar, the swing from the pole, its all pre-determined as the single solution to the puzzle infront of you, and simplified to enable everyone who may possibly spend money on the game to be able to perform it, flawlessly, with no effort. There is never anything more or anything less. No scope, whatsoever, to improve, improvise and develop your own ability and style at the game, no space for interpretation, no depth. Quake 3 is the sea of limitless potential, and POP is the choose your own adventure storybook, with 3 possible endings and progress determined by dice.
I dislike it for the above reasons, you like it presumably because it gives you an engrossing adventure or scenario. These are 2 opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the consumption of computer games. My end of the spectrum sees the game as a sport - not necessarily taken seriously, most likely comparable to a recreational sport, but still consumed in the same way as football and the like. Your end of the spectrum sees the game as an extension of media film and books, with an interactive element. I'll refrain from ranting about why my opinion is better than your opinion :)
Oh, and this isnt about plain difficulty levels, its about potential. You could easily ramp up the difficulty of POP 100 fold without making it any more entertaining for me - since i don't pay any attention to plot or storyline, completing a game is never my goal. Infact the majority of games i play are of the type that you don't exactly "complete". Competition is the aim, even if its only competition with myself to break a high score / beat a time record / accelerate an extra 10ups in that 2nd hop. POP povides zero scope for competition because it has no depth of play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so what games DO you like, TeoH?
i can't think of a single one that fits your taste. do you make your own? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, surely it should be clear from my previous post that i at least take a liking to the original mario games? Although honestly platformers have never been one of my favorite genres, you probably can't think of a game i'd enjoy because you're looking at the playstation top 20 chart for inspiration. I play games from a wide selection of genres, the linking factor being that all of them work competitively, and all of them offer plenty of scope for a player to improve at the game.
Clearly, i play the quake series. From the beatemup corner i'm quite partial to a bit of street fighter and VF2. i'll pick up a racing game roughly every 5 years which is the industries average turnover rate for good racing games: See Mariokart, (SNES) Sega rally, etc. Good sports games are even rarer, which is dissapointing from a genre which shouldn't really provide anything but ideal competitive titles, but sensible soccer springs to mind (Amiga = win). The classic style of scrolling blaster is a gud'un for score attacks, Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are the only recent titles i can think of that do it justice. GG treasure. In the same vein, and sort of outside the normal categories, i really like Nights for the sega saturn, which had a really sweet highscore/multiplier system.
Stuff like that, bare in mind that any game i shelf within a year of purchase i will normally classify as weak. To back that up i still frequently play SNES mariokart on zsnes :D
Pretty much it sounds llike that you dont like platform games am I correct? And also that you prefer more shoot 'em up, sports, racing series.
Still, really no need to get some damn complicated while talking about a game. I mean, it is -just- a game and apparently it's one that you don't like. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Myself, the game is alright. It's fun, I do enjoy doing some random jumps in combat, but it does get dull. I have more fun running and jumping to get somewhere instead of fighting.
Congrats, TeoH, you've lost all shreds of imagination!
I like PoP because the controls are smooth. You may like the tedium that comes with say, Tomb Raider, but I personally like flawlessy running along a wall, onto a pole and then jumping onto another one without so much as a breath.
Fun indeed. But I'm still hooked on KOTOR <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
There's a demo out... hmm. I'll download it but I don't think it'll work on my aged graphics card. Wasn't there someone a while ago who said it didn't work on their GeForce 4?
<!--QuoteBegin--Gadzuko+Jan 21 2004, 04:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Jan 21 2004, 04:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's a demo out... hmm. I'll download it but I don't think it'll work on my aged graphics card. Wasn't there someone a while ago who said it didn't work on their GeForce 4? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It needs a dx8.1 compatable hardware accelerator, which basically means anything GF3 class and above. Incidentally, that doesn't include the GF4MX as the GF4MX is effectively a rebranded GF2MX, and doesn't support the necessary features. If you have a vanilla GF4, or anything GF3 class and above barring the GF4MX, you should be fine.
Some people have reported round-about ways of getting it to work sometimes on an MX, but i wouldn't recommend shelling out for it when your videocard isnt officially supported.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like PoP because the controls are smooth. You may like the tedium that comes with say, Tomb Raider <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pretty much it sounds llike that you dont like platform games am I correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--DOOManiac+Jan 21 2004, 02:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Jan 21 2004, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd actually recommend BF1942, but I haven't played POP yet. Not that I think POP is bad, its just that BF1942 is friggin AWESOME.
And yeah you can play DC w/o any expansion packs. Don't know why you'd want to though, cause DC sax and EOD pwns it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you nubbin! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
(your not but i always wanted to call somebody that)
i think ill get bf1942... i need a new game for my radeon... they gave me angesl of darkness... wth is that ****.. lara croft is a moron.
this isnt my sort of game... too many damn puzzles.. i just want to kill things <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
but im stuck already.. it says right click to run up the wall.. then press jump to bounc from either wall... im doingt hat and the most i get is one bounce across then he falls... he do i need to press a direction key and bounce? cos i tried that too <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Prince of Persia is one of the funnest games I've played in a while. So much style, great story, precise controls (that I haven't seen in the 3d generation since Mario 64) and camera... I'd say it's more akin to the old school 2d action games than any 3d game thus far that I've played. I never got frustrated at the controls (and my gamecube pad is thankful for that!) and what you call shallow, I call doing what I damn well wanted. The camera was where I wanted (something you rarely see in 3d games) and it targeted who I wanted to fight. The moves are fricking cool too. (Living in the dorm, you get an audience from time to time so that counts some too.) The going back in time thing is super handy too. It won't always save you, but it let me just run and jump and try every stupid move I could without batting an eye. None of this walk up to the edge, sway the camera around... scope it out... think about it for a minute... nope, just run up and jump. Didn't make it? Okay try that again. The fighting is cool too. When you get to fight against some of the tougher enemies farther on (some won't let you do the flip over, slash from behind trick) you have to change your style. I found every fight, I was trying to make it look cooler than before, with parries, flips, off the wall's, slow motions, etc etc. One area, there is a big cliff (just before the zoo I think) where you can fight enemies nice and safe... I just ran over to the cliff and fought them over there instead (one flip over an enemies back sent me over the cliff though which was funny as hell) ... it's just friggin cool doing stuff like that. You play around with the game, you find it doesn't limit you as much as you first think. You can fight each fight the same boring way if you want to, but you can do different stuff if you want.
I give PoP a big two thumbs up because I had fun all the way through.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gadzuko+Jan 21 2004, 04:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Jan 21 2004, 04:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's a demo out... hmm. I'll download it but I don't think it'll work on my aged graphics card. Wasn't there someone a while ago who said it didn't work on their GeForce 4? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> try the demo, thats what its there for <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the game runs at about 23 fps in 1024 res settings maxed (sans shadows) on my gf3ti200.
so I'm the only one that didn't like the combat from PoP. I just don't like the fact you got one key to do 4 different actions, depending on length of push, direction, proximity of enemy, status of enemy (on ground/stone/still alive/slo mo/mega freeze) etc etc. But overall the game is good, even though some parts are really annoying (one solution, you turn around it but can't figure it out before you just happen to see the right switch or something) Good thing the visions are there to help. They explain enough but not too much to spoil everything.
well i now have both <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Jan 21 2004, 03:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Jan 21 2004, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good thing the visions are there to help. They explain enough but not too much to spoil everything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hehe... yeah I don't recommend doing what they do all the time. I must've jumped off one cliff a dozen times (expecting a sekrat!) until I figured it out that some visions are there to mess with your mind!
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin--BigDXLT+Jan 23 2004, 09:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigDXLT @ Jan 23 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Jan 21 2004, 03:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Jan 21 2004, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good thing the visions are there to help. They explain enough but not too much to spoil everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hehe... yeah I don't recommend doing what they do all the time. I must've jumped off one cliff a dozen times (expecting a sekrat!) until I figured it out that some visions are there to mess with your mind! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> especially the ones where you fall to your doom <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i hated the ending <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> biggest letdown since Star wars episode 1.
Comments
Both Tomb Raider and Sands of Time attempt to bring a much older style of gameplay - that of the good old jump&run - into the third dimension. Despising the one because the older of the two failed in this isn't exactely doing it justice.
Sorry, Teoh, but I can not agree. You cite Tomb Raider - well, TR consisted of jumping- and lever puzzles, as well, yet, POP does not require you to time your jumps to the pixel, making for a by far more smooth experience right there.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both feature a near identical style of gameplay, you cite POP's simpler jumping system as an improvement that benefits the game by making it less frustrating.
Here's the problem: Simplification is the very last thing i would ever suggest as an 'improvement' to Tomb Raider. The lack of control and simplification of jumping and movement in Tomb Raider is what makes it so dull to play in the first place. POP takes it to the next level by removing even any small slither of timing that may have been required by TR. Any jump in the game is performed perfectly every time by simply pressing 2 keys in combination. Don't worry about timing, don't worry about precise control, you may as well just be selecting the move you wish to perform from as a menu as this is effectively what the control system limits you to. And so every jumping puzzle in the game is purely a question of figuring out which move you need to perform - Usually by trial and error with use of the rewind feature. You praise this for being less frustrating, i condemn it for being simplistic and shallow.
You liken the genre to the classic 2d platformer - what POP lacks is exactly what made those platformers great. They may only be 2d, they may only require 1 jump button, left, right and down, but sonic and mario gave you control, and they forced you to excersise it. You have absolute control over your speed, your height, your movement through the air. I'm sure you've seen a few of the speed run videos showing player's demonstrating extreme skill in mario and similar games - you will NEVER see a similar video for Tomb Raider, POP or the majority of games released in the last 4 years, because these games dumb down all execution and control of the game to the point where anyone of any ability immediately has as much control over the game as they will ever have, with no room for advancement or refinement of skills. POP leaves me cold, because even only a few minutes into the game i could see that the control system and the fighting system have no depth, none whatsoever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
the fact that you don't need twenty keys to control your character isn't exactely something despiseable in my opinion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the number of keys, not at all - It's what you do with them that counts ;)
There are no comparisons to be drawn between POP and mario, they are entirely different genres, although the inadequate genre labels we have at the moment will not reflect this. Their differences have nothing to do with the number of dimensions they use or the year of their release - the difference is what they require of the player.
Mario is not a puzzle game, it is a game of control and execution, as practically every platformer of the era was.
POP is a <b>pure</b> puzzle game, because it simplifies control and execution to the point where they are no longer a part of the challenge. POP sees accurate control and execution as an unwanted burden of the interface, something to be minimised and reduced so that the player can focus on their real 'game' which consists entirely of weak trial and error puzzles. If POP is attempting to be a platformer, then it is ignoring the fact that the greatest examples of the genre are built entirely around the 'burden' they have tried to remove.
I do not <i>care</i> how difficult it is to master a jump, or whether a speed run based on a series of exploits - that's what most of them are, after all - is possible, I care for the feeling I loved when doing a flawless round through a Mario level, that pure drive going through you. Many of PoPs levels do that for me, thanks to perfectly laid out pacing, good graphics and ambience, non-restrictive controls (I <i>love</i> running along a wall towards an enemy and chopping him down with my feet still not touching the ground), and great level design.
Is PoP difficult? No. Is it simple? Possibly, although I'd advise you to play further, later stages are just not half as simplified as you make the game out to be.
The only question important to me is whether it's fun - and I can answer that with a heartily "yes".
so what games DO you like, TeoH?
i can't think of a single one that fits your taste. do you make your own?
<a href='http://www.3dgamers.com/games/princepersia4/' target='_blank'>3D Gamers</a>
<a href='http://www.fileshack.com/file.x?fid=4446' target='_blank'>Fileshack</a>
<a href='http://www.gamershell.com/news_DemoBPrinceofPersiaSands.shtml' target='_blank'>Gamer's Hell</a>
<a href='http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=15603' target='_blank'>Worthplaying</a>
BF1942 or pop? and if i get bf1942... do i need that road to rome shite to play desert combat?
And yeah you can play DC w/o any expansion packs. Don't know why you'd want to though, cause DC sax and EOD pwns it ;)
Where you fight all the sand zombies, and the sand zombie king (main character's father, etc. etc.). I CAN'T WIN! D:
Hints? Plzkthx.
I love jumping over people, so here was my strategy:
Take out each of the other zombies before going after the king (this sin't THAT hard)
Now, you will auto target him.
Do a quick strafe (left or right, what ever is comfterable I use left)
Then run at him and jump, this will make you vault over him.
when you are in the air spam attack and you should hit him atleast once.
Now repeat this.
The strafe is there so that he wont block as often.
The jump is there b/c he can't attack when you do this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
he is actualy a piece of caek (or pai if you prefer) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh my, we're down to our old argument.
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heh, yea i was getting flashbacks to a certain thread.
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I do not <i>care</i> how difficult it is to master a jump, or whether a speed run based on a series of exploits - that's what most of them are, after all - is possible, I care for the feeling I loved when doing a flawless round through a Mario level, that pure drive going through you. Many of PoPs levels do that for me, thanks to perfectly laid out pacing, good graphics and ambience, non-restrictive controls (I <i>love</i> running along a wall towards an enemy and chopping him down with my feet still not touching the ground), and great level design.
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Ignoring that little 'exploit' dig that you threw in there, what we have here is a difference in how each of us views the game, and what exactly we get out of it. I personally feel that your non-restrictive controls are extremely restrictive, and i would guess our different opinions come what we see and experience as we play the game:
From your perspective, you're a prince in an ancient palace, running across a wall swinging a sword.
From my perspective, i just pressed forwards and the action key (roughly together with no particular thought to timing or control) in order to perform a move that the current scene strictly requires me to perform.
Now if you can get caught up in the whole persian adventure thing and enjoy the game regardless of the fact that it offers basically no scope for expression and can barely be called interactive then more power to you, you'll be able to enjoy the current games market alot more than i will.
But i can't do that, because the whole storyline / immersion / wonderful visuals thing misses me completely. Thats not what i get out of a game at all, i find myself pretty much incapable of getting involved with computer game characters and a story line (can you blame me? I mean honestly look at POP and then watch a standard un-exceptional hollywood movie that most people would be expected to take mild interest in). To give you an example of what i get out of a game, what i constitute as 'fun' i'm going to bring up Quake 3, as we all know everyone loves examples using the quake series...
Q3 is a deathmatch game, it stresses alot of different attributes, one of which is movement ability, 1 subset of those movement abilities could be the circle strafe jump start, which would be a technique used to cover a large distance (or generate a large amount of speed) from a standing position in a single jump. To improve your circle strafe jump you would practice jumping increasingly large gaps in a single hop, pushing your accel ability further as you practiced to clear each jump. Training, and accomplishing this 1 type of jump, out of a subset of movement ability which is itself a subset of the different abilities tested by Q3, feels more rewarding to me than the entirity of POP that i have played so far (Which i'm guessing is just over half of it). Pulling off one of these jumps doesn't look impressive, certainly wouldn't capture the attention of an onlooker who didn't understand the game, doesn't involve princes, swords or acrobatics in exceedingly baggy trousers - but the satisfaction of landing that difficult jump trumps everything POP has had to offer me.
You realise - that if you look a bit deeper than the impressive backflips and all the wallrunning, everything you are or ever will do in POP is exactly what the game designer has pre-scripted for you to do in order to pass the section. The bounce off that pillar, the swing from the pole, its all pre-determined as the single solution to the puzzle infront of you, and simplified to enable everyone who may possibly spend money on the game to be able to perform it, flawlessly, with no effort. There is never anything more or anything less. No scope, whatsoever, to improve, improvise and develop your own ability and style at the game, no space for interpretation, no depth. Quake 3 is the sea of limitless potential, and POP is the choose your own adventure storybook, with 3 possible endings and progress determined by dice.
I dislike it for the above reasons, you like it presumably because it gives you an engrossing adventure or scenario. These are 2 opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the consumption of computer games. My end of the spectrum sees the game as a sport - not necessarily taken seriously, most likely comparable to a recreational sport, but still consumed in the same way as football and the like. Your end of the spectrum sees the game as an extension of media film and books, with an interactive element. I'll refrain from ranting about why my opinion is better than your opinion :)
Oh, and this isnt about plain difficulty levels, its about potential. You could easily ramp up the difficulty of POP 100 fold without making it any more entertaining for me - since i don't pay any attention to plot or storyline, completing a game is never my goal. Infact the majority of games i play are of the type that you don't exactly "complete". Competition is the aim, even if its only competition with myself to break a high score / beat a time record / accelerate an extra 10ups in that 2nd hop. POP povides zero scope for competition because it has no depth of play.
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so what games DO you like, TeoH?
i can't think of a single one that fits your taste. do you make your own?
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heh, surely it should be clear from my previous post that i at least take a liking to the original mario games? Although honestly platformers have never been one of my favorite genres, you probably can't think of a game i'd enjoy because you're looking at the playstation top 20 chart for inspiration. I play games from a wide selection of genres, the linking factor being that all of them work competitively, and all of them offer plenty of scope for a player to improve at the game.
Clearly, i play the quake series.
From the beatemup corner i'm quite partial to a bit of street fighter and VF2.
i'll pick up a racing game roughly every 5 years which is the industries average turnover rate for good racing games: See Mariokart, (SNES) Sega rally, etc.
Good sports games are even rarer, which is dissapointing from a genre which shouldn't really provide anything but ideal competitive titles, but sensible soccer springs to mind (Amiga = win).
The classic style of scrolling blaster is a gud'un for score attacks, Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are the only recent titles i can think of that do it justice. GG treasure.
In the same vein, and sort of outside the normal categories, i really like Nights for the sega saturn, which had a really sweet highscore/multiplier system.
Stuff like that, bare in mind that any game i shelf within a year of purchase i will normally classify as weak. To back that up i still frequently play SNES mariokart on zsnes :D
Pretty much it sounds llike that you dont like platform games am I correct? And also that you prefer more shoot 'em up, sports, racing series.
Still, really no need to get some damn complicated while talking about a game. I mean, it is -just- a game and apparently it's one that you don't like. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Myself, the game is alright. It's fun, I do enjoy doing some random jumps in combat, but it does get dull. I have more fun running and jumping to get somewhere instead of fighting.
I like PoP because the controls are smooth. You may like the tedium that comes with say, Tomb Raider, but I personally like flawlessy running along a wall, onto a pole and then jumping onto another one without so much as a breath.
It needs a dx8.1 compatable hardware accelerator, which basically means anything GF3 class and above. Incidentally, that doesn't include the GF4MX as the GF4MX is effectively a rebranded GF2MX, and doesn't support the necessary features. If you have a vanilla GF4, or anything GF3 class and above barring the GF4MX, you should be fine.
Some people have reported round-about ways of getting it to work sometimes on an MX, but i wouldn't recommend shelling out for it when your videocard isnt officially supported.
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I like PoP because the controls are smooth. You may like the tedium that comes with say, Tomb Raider
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Pretty much it sounds llike that you dont like platform games am I correct?
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*waves open palm across head*
*Whooooooshhh*
And yeah you can play DC w/o any expansion packs. Don't know why you'd want to though, cause DC sax and EOD pwns it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you nubbin! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
(your not but i always wanted to call somebody that)
i think ill get bf1942... i need a new game for my radeon... they gave me angesl of darkness... wth is that ****.. lara croft is a moron.
but im stuck already.. it says right click to run up the wall.. then press jump to bounc from either wall... im doingt hat and the most i get is one bounce across then he falls... he do i need to press a direction key and bounce? cos i tried that too <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The puzles have 1 corect answer each. I don't like that.
The COMBAT is fun (but only assuming you eventualy get new things you can do)
Yes, Running on a wall, jumping off landing on the pillar is cool.
However the factor that THAT is EXACTLY what you have to do is kinda silly
So the puzzles consist of:
Hmm, I think this should do it:
try try try DIE
"No, No, No, No, Thats not how it went" *reload*
try try try OH THATS what I was suposed to do!
And the combat isn't all that hard (infact its down right simple) (Note I only got a little past the part where you get the freeze every one power)
I give PoP a big two thumbs up because I had fun all the way through.
try the demo, thats what its there for <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the game runs at about 23 fps in 1024 res settings maxed (sans shadows) on my gf3ti200.
But overall the game is good, even though some parts are really annoying (one solution, you turn around it but can't figure it out before you just happen to see the right switch or something)
Good thing the visions are there to help. They explain enough but not too much to spoil everything.
i just beat it.
even the ENDING is awesome.
and it <i>IS</i> awesome.
"you presume too much!" [chuckle]
Hehe... yeah I don't recommend doing what they do all the time. I must've jumped off one cliff a dozen times (expecting a sekrat!) until I figured it out that some visions are there to mess with your mind!
Hehe... yeah I don't recommend doing what they do all the time. I must've jumped off one cliff a dozen times (expecting a sekrat!) until I figured it out that some visions are there to mess with your mind! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
especially the ones where you fall to your doom <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->