Fbi & Secret Service Make Hl2 Related Raids!

Thansal · January 2004

oh right, problems with Hacks existing:

If valve were to release the game and all of these hacks were to exist.

They would Probably take a SERIOUS shot in sales.
Look, If I knew that I was gona be dealing with every little snot nosed punk who isn't good enugh for his own tastes having the friken power of god over me in game I AINT GONA PLAY!

AllUrHiveRblong2us · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jan 20 2004, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> what you don't seem to get is the simple fact that if all information was free then intelegent people would be dirt poor and the rich would just get richer. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Forgive my saying this, but that statement made me want to strangle someone with the shear amount of "incorrect" contained within it. I can't even BEGIN to start telling you how terrible the logic behind that is.

Because noone at Valve IS "The rich" or anything. No, of course not.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>emember if you wana make arguments you gota stay in the real world (YES I WOULD LIKE A UTOPIAN SOCIETY, and it will never ever hapen b/c people are gready)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Everything I say is meant for the real world, because I believe that this society could be a utopian one, if people just tried to make it one. People are not inherently evil, evil is a learned behaviour just like good is.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So here is the deal:
WHY should some one give any one something for information when they can just take it for free.
So the person coming up with plans that can be duplicated (inventors, composers, programers, CGartists etc) will never see any return on their work.
Some one Who can PRODUCE the thing described by the invetor (just ussing it to cover all of them) can make stupid amounts of $$ (If I can complie and destribute the code, Build the device from the plans, performe the song etc) I am the only who has something that has any value in the end.

So now comes the problem that with out motivation and/or suport the inventors can't/wont invent (If I aint getting something in return for my hours/days/years of work I aint gona do it) (or IF I was in it for the sake of art there is the problem that I can't dedicate my time to doing it, instead I have to go make assembles something)

Now you should see the problem.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
According to your logic there should be no mods, no custom models, no custom maps, no nothing that is free in the realm of software. Have you checked this thing called the "internet" recently? It's full of stuff that people give up for free, with no expectation of fiskal rewards. Check out the custom models at this very site. Do you see anyone charging? How many high-quality mods can you pick up right now with no charge to you? A lot I bet. You htink there aren't peopel who just do things because they love to do them? You ever gone to see a local band? Many of these bands don't make much off of playing at all. After you factor in transportation, upkeep on istruments, and any other costs that come from playing, they probly won't make much money at all. How about someone who makes music and distributes it over the internet? Such a thing is not alien to out society, do they only do this because they expect someone to magically come along and pay them? If things were how you say they are, I would never be able to donload anything off of a P2P program, because everyone would just leech, but that's not the case. There are peopel who do things because they genuinely love to do them, with very little hope of seeing any return on their investment of time and effort. Their are artists who genuinely love their art, inventors who genuinely love to invent, producers who genuinely love to produce. This is all the motivation anyone should need, human being are not naturally greedy.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They would Probably take a SERIOUS shot in sales.
Look, If I knew that I was gona be dealing with every little snot nosed punk who isn't good enugh for his own tastes having the friken power of god over me in game I AINT GONA PLAY</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Maybe YOU won't, but peopel have dealt with cheats in online games for as long as there have been online games, some peopel understand that, and they will play the game nonethless because they will most likely find it funn when there aren't hackers around...................and then there are some people who play CS, so the market hasn't been ENTIRELY destroyed.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Therefore there's absolutely no shred of actual 'good' that comes from this silly lil escapade of stealing HL2's code. If there's no good that means it was entirely bad. The End =P</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If someone read the source and learned something from it, there is good. If someone took the source and compiled it and had fun playing around with this new (if uncompleted) game, there is good. Do not overlook such little things as this, they are often the most important.

Geminosity · January 2004

while I half agree that people will do things they truely love at their own cost, lets not pretend that these 'free works' can't also be used as references when applying for a job in the same field. Musicians who spread tunes about for free can point potential employers at them if they're popular and mod makers often end up using a successful mod in their programming CV =3

<b>edit:</b> can? can't!

Zig · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AYHRB2U @ 2 posts up)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>According to your logic there should be no mods, no custom models, no custom maps, no nothing that is free in the realm of software. Have you checked this thing called the "internet" recently? It's full of stuff that people give up for free, with no expectation of fiskal rewards. Check out the custom models at this very site. Do you see anyone charging? How many high-quality mods can you pick up right now with no charge to you? A lot I bet. You htink there aren't peopel who just do things because they love to do them? You ever gone to see a local band? Many of these bands don't make much off of playing at all. After you factor in transportation, upkeep on istruments, and any other costs that come from playing, they probly won't make much money at all. How about someone who makes music and distributes it over the internet? Such a thing is not alien to out society, do they only do this because they expect someone to magically come along and pay them? If things were how you say they are, I would never be able to donload anything off of a P2P program, because everyone would just leech, but that's not the case. There are peopel who do things because they genuinely love to do them, with very little hope of seeing any return on their investment of time and effort. Their are artists who genuinely love their art, inventors who genuinely love to invent, producers who genuinely love to produce. This is all the motivation anyone should need, human being are not naturally greedy.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

^point^

Thansal · January 2004

gona quote my self again:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>or IF I was in it for the sake of art there is the problem that I can't dedicate my time to doing it, instead I have to go make assembles something</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

YES, people do some amazing things for free. HOWEVER, most of those people also get paid to do similar things.

As I understand Flay spent 2 years living on savings made from working as a programer to make NS.
Davinchi sold his paintings so he could buy art suplies (and feed himself).

So yes, there would be free things, however I doubt that they would be as good as the freethings we currently get.
NS Wouldn't exist with out HL.
Wolfenstein: ET (free mod of RtCW that you don't need RtCW for) wouldn't exist with out Wolfenstein.

ALSO, this breeds slackers. Why should I code this when I can jsut take it from anyone else. With out the motivation to invent we live in mediocrity.

Drug companies wouldn't pump stupid amounts of $$ in to cures if they knew that as soon as their guys create it EVERY one can produce it.
There would be no drive for xxx company to improve the field if they know that as soon as they create the next best thing every one else will be selling it also.

Look, if you believe that a utopian society is possible you are dilusional.
No people are not inherintly Evil, But they are NOT inherently altruistic either.
They ARE inherently selfish (this is genetics here, they do what it takes to keep themself and their offspring alive)

People have tried to create utopian societies, they have all fallen appart (I am not even talking about the big ones, I am just talking aboust simple comunes. They eventualy fall apart b/c people are not designed to live like that)

SoulSkorpion · January 2004

Hoo boy. There's a lot to catch up on..
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
If Valve has to reiwrite that section of the code, wouldn't they have had to eventually anyways?If that part is vulnerable now, and it would continue to be unless they changed it, which is what they are doing. All of the things that were released by the hacker was nothing the public wasn't going to get it's grabby little hands on in a while anyways, in which case the cheaters would have gone out and found a way, that's an inevitability, and frankly one that I have no moral qualm with either. I know several peopel who made little hacks for HL and stuff for their own personal use, just for the fun of it. Not for the purposes of cheating, but just to prove that they could and to have fun in the act of making the cheats. All a cheat is a new bit of data introduced to the public. How people use it is not the cheat-maker's fault.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Once again, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Valve have to rewrite their code because the hacker now has full access to the engine source code. That means they can see, laid out before them, how the game is put together and therefore the ease with which they can exploit it is increased tremendously. The public were NOT going to get their hands on the engine source, they were going to be recieving the compiled game and probably the source to the game code in an SDK. And if you don't know what the difference is (and it's abundantly obvious that you don't) then you're in <b>NO</b> position to be commenting on the value of software.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What did they spend 3 years working on? I'll tell you: they spent 3 years working in Half Life 2, a ga,e that at least can be considered lots of skilled code and well-made visual media, and at most art. In the case of the former it is merely information or "data" as you insist on calling it, and it is something that should be viewable by all, it belongs to society to better it and provide it with more knowledge. In the best case this game can be considered high art, in which case it belongs to society, because all art is in some way influenced by society and as such, should be used by said society as it sees fit.
I don't sound like too much of a commie, do I?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes, you do. But that's besides the point.

Unlike other forms of "information", software is not recieved in the form it is written in. Software is a machine, created from a set of instructions. It's not a novel. Yes, it's possible to learn a lot from studying the source code of a game - you can do that from the SDK without needing the engine code. Yes, there are programmers who believe that software's source should be free and openly available. Myself, I believe in using a skilled trade to paying the bills.

What frustrates me is your blind idealism when you have no understanding of the concepts you think would be better changed. I'm getting the distinct impression of "Hey, man! Peace and love and cat ears! Give me free software and stuff because hey, everything should be free! Why? Because I don't have any money, and paying for things sucks!"

Finally...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>According to your logic there should be no mods, no custom models, no custom maps, no nothing that is free in the realm of software...

*snip*

... Their are artists who genuinely love their art, inventors who genuinely love to invent, producers who genuinely love to produce. This is all the motivation anyone should need, human being are not naturally greedy.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
There's a difference between coding something for free and not being allowed to profit from your code. Yes, you could build someone a house for free out of your own pocket. But in a world where people do that, why <i>shouldn't</i> professional builders profit from making houses?

AllUrHiveRblong2us · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jan 20 2004, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> YES, people do some amazing things for free. HOWEVER, most of those people also get paid to do similar things.

As I understand Flay spent 2 years living on savings made from working as a programer to make NS.
Davinchi sold his paintings so he could buy art suplies (and feed himself).

So yes, there would be free things, however I doubt that they would be as good as the freethings we currently get.
NS Wouldn't exist with out HL.
Wolfenstein: ET (free mod of RtCW that you don't need RtCW for) wouldn't exist with out Wolfenstein.

ALSO, this breeds slackers. Why should I code this when I can jsut take it from anyone else. With out the motivation to invent we live in mediocrity.

Drug companies wouldn't pump stupid amounts of $$ in to cures if they knew that as soon as their guys create it EVERY one can produce it.
There would be no drive for xxx company to improve the field if they know that as soon as they create the next best thing every one else will be selling it also.

Look, if you believe that a utopian society is possible you are dilusional.
No people are not inherintly Evil, But they are NOT inherently altruistic either.
They ARE inherently selfish (this is genetics here, they do what it takes to keep themself and their offspring alive)

People have tried to create utopian societies, they have all fallen appart (I am not even talking about the big ones, I am just talking aboust simple comunes. They eventualy fall apart b/c people are not designed to live like that) </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes, Da Vinci sold his paintings to live, but that's what I'm suggesting that all of society do, except you cut out the middleman of money, in favor of a direct exchange with society, as long as you produce what you are good at and love to do, the rest of society will produce what it is good at and loves to do, and they will have noone else to give these things than to each other.
I'm not suggesting that society feed and clothe every old slacker who sits in his house and smokes all day, I'm suggesting that peopel legitimately strive to help each other as contributing members to society as a whole, and not as slaves to their own self-interest.
And as for the inherent selfishness of man, so what? All one has to do is to change the mindset of society to one where people see helping everyoen else as helping themselves as well. Stranger things have hapened to the public mindset.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There's a difference between coding something for free and not being allowed to profit from your code. Yes, you could build someone a house for free out of your own pocket. But in a world where people do that, why shouldn't professional builders profit from making houses?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Ok, I'm not gonna argue technical stuff with you, cuz basically all I know about it already is what I've said, and frankly, that's not really important to me. If a game is like a machine, as you say, then would you consider it illegal to look at said machine?
Anyways, back to the quote I'm responding to. The question is not "why shouldn't a builder profit?" but "Why should a builder (who makes a house, which is necessary to your survival) profit more than a farmer (who feeds you, which is equally important) or profit less than a doctor (who gives you medicine to keep you healthy, an equally necessary service)?" As one who plans to go into the construction trade himself (I should be starting an apprenticeship this summer), I do not see why I should make more than a farmer, or less than a doctor. This is not a question of profit, but of equality.

SoulSkorpion · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 21 2004, 10:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Ok, I'm not gonna argue technical stuff with you, cuz basically all I know about it already is what I've said, and frankly, that's not really important to me. If a game is like a machine, as you say, then would you consider it illegal to look at said machine?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Because it's more a case of buying the machine verses being given detailed blueprints for it. Unfortunately, it's not possible to reveal the code to a game without giving the game away for free, because you can take that code and turn it into the game. They do, however, release the source code to the game (as in, the monsters and weapons and items) in the SDK to allow people to make mods, rather than the engine (as in the code that handles the geometry and physics of the world, the lighting, the actual creating of the game rather than the rules of the game). The Half-Life SDK is free to download, and does show how the Half-Life game works. It's also useless unless you already have the hl.exe file, which contains the Half-Life engine.

And as the rest of the discussion is more directly about Communism itself I'm going to withdraw, seeing as I've acomplished what I came to do...

AllUrHiveRblong2us · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jan 20 2004, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because it's more a case of buying the machine verses being given detailed blueprints for it. Unfortunately, it's not possible to reveal the code to a game without giving the game away for free, because you can take that code and turn it into the game. They do, however, release the source code to the game (as in, the monsters and weapons and items) in the SDK to allow people to make mods, rather than the engine (as in the code that handles the geometry and physics of the world, the lighting, the actual creating of the game rather than the rules of the game). The Half-Life SDK is free to download, and does show how the Half-Life game works. It's also useless unless you already have the hl.exe file, which contains the Half-Life engine.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Still, I fail to see your point. Now forgive me if I say something really stupid, but couldn't somebody find a way to decompile it if they REALLY want to? This is what I assumed all along, actually, that people would just get their hands on the source for the engine and any other important bits by decompiling the danged thing when they got their hands on it after release. Unless they can't do that which I figured someone would have found out how to do that by now.....

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And as the rest of the discussion is more directly about Communism itself I'm going to withdraw, seeing as I've acomplished what I came to do...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Which is to point out that I am not a man of technicalities, and to make what apears to be a slightly mocking comment towards my head adornments?

Wheeee · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jan 19 2004, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I say take his good hand. His haxing days will be <i>over</i> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> ! </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
(resists making a sexual joke based on stereotypical hax0r behavior with their "good hands")

Errr...
Anyway, on to AllUrHive,
Let's assume this hypothetical situation:
You have spent your last 5 years writing a book. This book is what you are counting on to continue paying for your living expenses: food, clothing, gas and maintenance for your car (or maintenance for your bicycle, as it may be).
Say this book is hotly anticipated by EVERYONE.
Now, should I, who have no relation to you, be able to break into your house, photograph the pages of your book, with side notes and scratch-outs, and then post it all over the internet for the world to see?
Why is this not wrong? There is a tangible loss to you; since some people who now know the general storyline will never buy it? I'm sure you will rewrite the book saying to yourself "I cannot claim that this person was wrong because I didn't lose anything...I still have the book"

*edit* oh, and by the way: your argument about money being tangible whereas code is a series of letters and numbers and symbols: have you ever had a bank account? oops. Your bank account information is also a series of letters, numbers, and symbols, most likely kept within a database.
By releasing your bank account information, you don't lose anything...no, you still have the bank account information yourself.

SoulSkorpion · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 21 2004, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jan 20 2004, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because it's more a case of buying the machine verses being given detailed blueprints for it. Unfortunately, it's not possible to reveal the code to a game without giving the game away for free, because you can take that code and turn it into the game. They do, however, release the source code to the game (as in, the monsters and weapons and items) in the SDK to allow people to make mods, rather than the engine (as in the code that handles the geometry and physics of the world, the lighting, the actual creating of the game rather than the rules of the game). The Half-Life SDK is free to download, and does show how the Half-Life game works. It's also useless unless you already have the hl.exe file, which contains the Half-Life engine.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Still, I fail to see your point. Now forgive me if I say something really stupid, but couldn't somebody find a way to decompile it if they REALLY want to? This is what I assumed all along, actually, that people would just get their hands on the source for the engine and any other important bits by decompiling the danged thing when they got their hands on it after release. Unless they can't do that which I figured someone would have found out how to do that by now.....  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
No, it's not all that stupid a question, but it is very nearly impossible to decompile C++, which HL2 is written in. To manage it, to be able to write hacks for it, is several orders of magnitude more difficult than writing hacks in the first place.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And as the rest of the discussion is more directly about Communism itself I'm going to withdraw, seeing as I've acomplished what I came to do...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Which is to point out that I am not a man of technicalities, and to make what apears to be a slightly mocking comment towards my head adornments?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Heh, touche. Well, what I hoped to do was establish that a computer game is something more substantial than simply a bunch of words, or at the very least to steer the topic away from that. *shrug*.

BigD · January 2004

Edit: Crapzola. Rant ahead.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 20 2004, 08:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jan 20 2004, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because it's more a case of buying the machine verses being given detailed blueprints for it. Unfortunately, it's not possible to reveal the code to a game without giving the game away for free, because you can take that code and turn it into the game. They do, however, release the source code to the game (as in, the monsters and weapons and items) in the SDK to allow people to make mods, rather than the engine (as in the code that handles the geometry and physics of the world, the lighting, the actual creating of the game rather than the rules of the game). The Half-Life SDK is free to download, and does show how the Half-Life game works. It's also useless unless you already have the hl.exe file, which contains the Half-Life engine.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Still, I fail to see your point. Now forgive me if I say something really stupid, but couldn't somebody find a way to decompile it if they REALLY want to? This is what I assumed all along, actually, that people would just get their hands on the source for the engine and any other important bits by decompiling the danged thing when they got their hands on it after release. Unless they can't do that which I figured someone would have found out how to do that by now.....

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And as the rest of the discussion is more directly about Communism itself I'm going to withdraw, seeing as I've acomplished what I came to do...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Which is to point out that I am not a man of technicalities, and to make what apears to be a slightly mocking comment towards my head adornments? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
In all seriousness, I think I see what's happening here. Hive, you don't have a real knowledge of what happens at the code level. Decompiling can give you some code, but not all. It can give you an idea of what's going on, perhaps algorithms and such, but the details are still missing. With the proper level of encryption, it can be all but impossible to decypher. With modern game engines amounting to MILLIONS of lines of code, it is becoming even more difficult to hack into games. There is simply too much. Too many variables. Too many variants in the algorithms. I would expect hacking to reduce in the next couple of generations simply because hackers are too lazy at best. Look at the gamecube. Sure, some things have been done... but by making it that much harder, Nintendo has suffered far less than consoles such as the PS and PS2. Emulators for the n64 were and still are sketchy at best, and it's likely we won't see an emulator for the gamecube, unless some dedicated person takes on that chore. Now, on the other hand, Halflife 2. If the source code wasn't released, it would likely be in the same boat. It would be quite a while before it was hacked into I'm sure. Now instead, every hacker has a perfect roadmap and they know exactly what does what. This has massive effects on valve that you don't seem to comprehend. For one thing, valve has a tarnished reputation. Companies that wanted to get on with STEAM are going to be scared away now that valve has "security problems". Companies that worked with valve such as Havoc (whose physics engine is used in HL2) ought to be a bit cheezed that their hard work is out and about now. Valve will have to do a lot of **** kissing to get in bed with them again now.

Another thing you don't understand is that information IS passed around quite a bit in the industry. There are awesome books like the "Game Programming Gems" series, Game Developer magazines, and so on. Industry professionals have spread TONNES of information out to the world. All sorts of tricks and tips. Any professional in the industry will tell you they don't need to look at that HL2 source code. They can read about it. This is not what scares Valve. Valve knows competitors like Ubisoft and EA won't steal anything from it. They have nothing to gain. It's little hack companies and individual, who are too LAZY to do their own work or research and don't care about RESPECT that annoy valve. I bet you dollars to donuts some jerkoff is going to take some of valves code and use it themselves without giving valve an OUNCE of credit. That's just gutless. And it will happen.
You want an example of this kind of gutless crap? I direct you towards a little mod called Halflife Rally. Back a couple of years ago, a fella went and joined this mod. After no time at all, he quit/was fired and started his own mod called HL street racing using code he ripped from the Rally team. Luckily, someone that found out about this that was working with the guy on Streetrace, decided he didn't want to be associated with this crap. In the end, the immature jackass closed shop. If you call that guy a hero, you have a serious problem because that's corruption (which is ironically what helped the fall of communism in the soviet union IIRC).

Edit: I ain't no english teacher. Grammer/spelling is awful... yeesh...

Gwahir · January 2004

Hive, I really don't know if you read too much Karl Marx or Bellamy.
anyway...
Your claim: People are not inherently evil
You admit: People are inherently selfish
You seem to believe: selfishness is really really bad and should be avoided at the cost of all cheese, wine, and ns. Thus selfishness is evil.

contradiction: people are both not inherently evil and inherently evil.

AllUrHiveRblong2us · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jan 20 2004, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hive, I really don't know if you read too much Karl Marx or Bellamy.
anyway...
Your claim: People are not inherently evil
You admit: People are inherently selfish
You seem to believe: selfishness is really really bad and should be avoided at the cost of all cheese, wine, and ns. Thus selfishness is evil.

contradiction: people are both not inherently evil and inherently evil. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I was trying to argue within the realm that was established by Thansal. If I couldn't change how he viewed people I could still argue my point. [edit] yeah, it was the Marx (you're talkin to a guy who reads the collected works of Marx and Engels for fun)

And with that, I'm done for the night, probly done with this whole thing. It's starting to get boring and annoying, and since the only arguments I havn't gotten to are Wheeeee's (which doesn't really raise any new points if you ask me) and BigD (who only raises technical issues which is besides the point), I think this would be a good place to declare some kind of closure (or at least my intent to go to sleep).

Smoke_Nova · January 2004

Hives, the issue is not that Valve still has the original source but rather that this guy took a duplicate of that source and put it out for EVERYONE to get if they wanted it. Small-time developers, using a "hacked" version of said source, could create games along the lines of HL2 for a lot less effort. Thus, the market becomes saturated and HL2 is seen as a "rip-off" by the nublets.

Thievery of intellectual property is still thievery.

BigD · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 20 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And with that, I'm done for the night, probly done with this whole thing. It's starting to get boring and annoying, and since the only arguments I havn't gotten to are Wheeeee's (which doesn't really raise any new points if you ask me) and BigD (who only raises technical issues which is besides the point), I think this would be a good place to declare some kind of closure (or at least my intent to go to sleep). </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Beside the point? Or beat by the points I made? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> Eitherway, this is going toward some political/religious/moral debate thing anyway (IOW, way offtopic) and I do agree on the sleep bit. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Though in my case replace "go to sleep" with "go get ownd in NS"...

Edit: Just realized why he didn't REALLY didn't address my points... He read my sig! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

UZi · January 2004

"Hmmm lets see here, child porn, bomb making instructions, cure for AIDS, SWEET JESUS ALMIGHTY PIRATED SOFTWARE!!!"

CplDavis · January 2004

lol imagine the guy sitting in his desk chair when all of a sudden he hears rotor blades.

Suddenly from his roof

"GO RECON!
LETS GO!

Crash! FBI Swat team busts through his skylight windows dressed as HL marines.

The little hacker goes "OMG" and sprints out of his chair.
he runs though his kitchen in hopes of escaping out the back door when suddenly a Secret Service black ops agent dressed all in black pops out of her hiding place in the fridge and spin kicks him.

heehee VALVE sponsered federal agent teams. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Fbi & Secret Service Make Hl2 Related Raids!

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