Balance: Purpose Of Third Hive Weapons
Hadaka
Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25826Members
Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25826Members
<div class="IPBDescription">eg. what they *should* do</div> This is just a personal idea on how Natural Selection works - you might disagree with my assumptions and so you would disagree with the conclusions I come to, as well. But I believe to have a good point here.
<u>Third hive weapons for aliens - eg. level 4 weapons - what should they do?</u>
<b>Point 1:</b> Third hive weapons are end-game weapons.
As a general rule, if aliens can get and hold three hives, they have pretty much won the game. Ofcourse this is as much dependant on the corresponding amount of resnodes controlled as the third hive. And there are plenty of exceptions to this rule. This is also how it should be - if the aliens can control most of the map and most of the resources, they should be able to win the game.
<b>Point 2:</b> Third hive weapons are team weapons.
Getting a third hive shouldn't mean that aliens become one-man killing machines instantly. But a concentrated force of properly upgraded aliens should be able to get through just about anywhere. This accentuates the fact that if aliens have three hives, but are scattered all around the map, they will still be vulnerable, but if they have control of the whole map and are just outside the marine base, they should be strong.
<b>Point 3:</b> Third hive weapons should help the team to end the game.
When the aliens have their three hives, and most resnodes, and are outside the marine base - those weapons should help them make the last crunch in cracking the marine resistance. Ofcourse winning the game should also be possible with just two hives, for example if the marines managed to relocate to the third one, but that's a separate problem to solve. Atleast in this situation, ending the game shouldn't require overt efforts from the alien team.
So, in this light, I will make a quick review of the weapons that are currently available, their strengths and weaknesses - this is entirely subjective and just my own opinion.
<b>Xenocide (Skulk):</b> Fits the bill marvelously. Not too useful when used alone against armor upgraded marines in light armor or heavy armors, but splendid for weakening the group. A xenociding skulk can seriously hinder base defence for the marines by making significant damage and at the same time disorienting the marines with the splashes and knocks.
<b>Web (Gorge):</b> Very good as well, in my opinion. A gorge is doing a support role near the base in any case - and webbing the hallways makes sure there are no escapees from the base. A more offensive gorge can manage to do it so that it actually hinders the marines in the base as well, and makes it easier for other aliens to finish the marines off.
<b>Primal Scream (Lerk):</b> Rather good. A late game lerk is doing mostly a support role with umbra and primal scream, which again can make a big difference in the effectiveness of alien attacks. Way underused in my opinion, but perhaps there are other reasons. As it is right now though, it gets so little usage that either people need to learn to use it, or something should be done to it.
<b>Acid Rocket (Fade):</b> Not that good at all. In the times of 2.0, a fade with adrenaline, and a couple movement chambers next to him, and perhaps even a lerk primal screaming and umbraing, could manage to do massive acid rocket spam to the base. But even that was rather rare sight. So, marginally useful for it's purpose, but not quite what it should be - especially with 3.0b2 and the damage reduction.
<b>Charge (Onos):</b> I am really bad to evaluate this, since I very rarely use it myself. But what I have deduced and seen seems to indicate that it's not really good at all for pressing offense, for various reasons. And it certainly doesn't seem to be strong on the points I listed earlier. So, I will say that charge is unsuitable for the purposes I have listed here.
<u>So, what's the problem then?</u>
Right now it seems that aliens have a comparatively hard time finishing the marines off in their base, even when controlling all the other resnodes on the map. Atleast much harder than it is for marines to do the same. Lately I've seen way too many games where marines have base-camped with one resnode for an extended period of time and then managed to break out with HAs and turn the tide again - just because aliens seemed unable to actually finish the game. Same thing happened in 2.0 at times, where a good marine team granadespamming and keeping the neighbourhood sieged could hold the base almost indefinitely. Ofcourse this is largely due to aliens not pressing their offense when they have the chance, but slacking off when the game looks clear already - but it seems unreasonable to expect prime performance at the end of the game from aliens, but not marines.
<u>What should be done? How to fix it?</u>
Well, I'm not hundred percent sure that there is anything to really fix here. The games aren't that imbalanced or anything. But I do think some of the third hive weapons don't really fit in there, and something should be done about them - and fixing them should not really affect balance much, since in most cases the result should already be clear at that point. So it's pretty much up to the devs to decide if there's anything worthwhile here.
But I think this thread is a good place to post your own ideas about what should be done. The changes should be such though that they can still be implemented within the time schedule of 3.0 - so entirely new weapons and graphics are probably not feasible.
The key point in the changes would be to allow aliens either to keep everybody dead in the marine base, or destroy structures more effectively. Right now the only good structure destroyer is an offensive gorge - and there's precious few of those that manage to survive in a marine base. Everybody else has to stay put to get the damage in and no alien yet is tough enough to survive concentrated fire like that. So, I'd also lean on the structure destroying side more.
One idea would be to up the damage to structures done by xenocides, but that would make skulks even more important than what they are right now, and I am not sure if that's a good thing. Personally, I'd like to see fade and onos get some changes to their weapons. I am not entirely sure what those changes should be though.
Again, thanks for listening.
<u>Third hive weapons for aliens - eg. level 4 weapons - what should they do?</u>
<b>Point 1:</b> Third hive weapons are end-game weapons.
As a general rule, if aliens can get and hold three hives, they have pretty much won the game. Ofcourse this is as much dependant on the corresponding amount of resnodes controlled as the third hive. And there are plenty of exceptions to this rule. This is also how it should be - if the aliens can control most of the map and most of the resources, they should be able to win the game.
<b>Point 2:</b> Third hive weapons are team weapons.
Getting a third hive shouldn't mean that aliens become one-man killing machines instantly. But a concentrated force of properly upgraded aliens should be able to get through just about anywhere. This accentuates the fact that if aliens have three hives, but are scattered all around the map, they will still be vulnerable, but if they have control of the whole map and are just outside the marine base, they should be strong.
<b>Point 3:</b> Third hive weapons should help the team to end the game.
When the aliens have their three hives, and most resnodes, and are outside the marine base - those weapons should help them make the last crunch in cracking the marine resistance. Ofcourse winning the game should also be possible with just two hives, for example if the marines managed to relocate to the third one, but that's a separate problem to solve. Atleast in this situation, ending the game shouldn't require overt efforts from the alien team.
So, in this light, I will make a quick review of the weapons that are currently available, their strengths and weaknesses - this is entirely subjective and just my own opinion.
<b>Xenocide (Skulk):</b> Fits the bill marvelously. Not too useful when used alone against armor upgraded marines in light armor or heavy armors, but splendid for weakening the group. A xenociding skulk can seriously hinder base defence for the marines by making significant damage and at the same time disorienting the marines with the splashes and knocks.
<b>Web (Gorge):</b> Very good as well, in my opinion. A gorge is doing a support role near the base in any case - and webbing the hallways makes sure there are no escapees from the base. A more offensive gorge can manage to do it so that it actually hinders the marines in the base as well, and makes it easier for other aliens to finish the marines off.
<b>Primal Scream (Lerk):</b> Rather good. A late game lerk is doing mostly a support role with umbra and primal scream, which again can make a big difference in the effectiveness of alien attacks. Way underused in my opinion, but perhaps there are other reasons. As it is right now though, it gets so little usage that either people need to learn to use it, or something should be done to it.
<b>Acid Rocket (Fade):</b> Not that good at all. In the times of 2.0, a fade with adrenaline, and a couple movement chambers next to him, and perhaps even a lerk primal screaming and umbraing, could manage to do massive acid rocket spam to the base. But even that was rather rare sight. So, marginally useful for it's purpose, but not quite what it should be - especially with 3.0b2 and the damage reduction.
<b>Charge (Onos):</b> I am really bad to evaluate this, since I very rarely use it myself. But what I have deduced and seen seems to indicate that it's not really good at all for pressing offense, for various reasons. And it certainly doesn't seem to be strong on the points I listed earlier. So, I will say that charge is unsuitable for the purposes I have listed here.
<u>So, what's the problem then?</u>
Right now it seems that aliens have a comparatively hard time finishing the marines off in their base, even when controlling all the other resnodes on the map. Atleast much harder than it is for marines to do the same. Lately I've seen way too many games where marines have base-camped with one resnode for an extended period of time and then managed to break out with HAs and turn the tide again - just because aliens seemed unable to actually finish the game. Same thing happened in 2.0 at times, where a good marine team granadespamming and keeping the neighbourhood sieged could hold the base almost indefinitely. Ofcourse this is largely due to aliens not pressing their offense when they have the chance, but slacking off when the game looks clear already - but it seems unreasonable to expect prime performance at the end of the game from aliens, but not marines.
<u>What should be done? How to fix it?</u>
Well, I'm not hundred percent sure that there is anything to really fix here. The games aren't that imbalanced or anything. But I do think some of the third hive weapons don't really fit in there, and something should be done about them - and fixing them should not really affect balance much, since in most cases the result should already be clear at that point. So it's pretty much up to the devs to decide if there's anything worthwhile here.
But I think this thread is a good place to post your own ideas about what should be done. The changes should be such though that they can still be implemented within the time schedule of 3.0 - so entirely new weapons and graphics are probably not feasible.
The key point in the changes would be to allow aliens either to keep everybody dead in the marine base, or destroy structures more effectively. Right now the only good structure destroyer is an offensive gorge - and there's precious few of those that manage to survive in a marine base. Everybody else has to stay put to get the damage in and no alien yet is tough enough to survive concentrated fire like that. So, I'd also lean on the structure destroying side more.
One idea would be to up the damage to structures done by xenocides, but that would make skulks even more important than what they are right now, and I am not sure if that's a good thing. Personally, I'd like to see fade and onos get some changes to their weapons. I am not entirely sure what those changes should be though.
Again, thanks for listening.
Comments
One of the reasons charge isn't good is the difficulty of actually hitting anything. By the end of the game the lag is always up, if you get 8 marines in 1 room spamming bullets that can add even more lag. It is next to impossible to actually stay connected with any target while you are charging, you slip around or through and do like 7 damage. In 2.0 charge was great for drive-by-devouring at ultra high speeds to avoid hmg rapage, but with the reduced range of devour in 3.0 that doesnt work as well anymore.
Make Onos charge move buildings out the way. I mean, pathetic tripod turret Vs HUGE charging Onos? Should insta-gib buildings like in 1.04 or move them asside and get to the peskyshotgunner cowering behind it.
Upping xeno damage might not be a bad idea. It won't kill an a3 marine at close range. It should. I'd like to see acid rockets go back to the real bile bombs of ye olde days. Those were base busters.
Extend the duration of primal scream, not a bad idea. At the moment it only speeds up attack, correct? Make it regen nearby aliens as well. Make it fill energy bars. Make it worth the third hive!
Quit nerfing the number of webs. It's a 4th hive ability. Limit it to a certain number per area, not a total per map. One newbie can decide to web the hive on the other side of the map and ruin it for everyone else.
And charge... I don't know if charge CAN be fixed. Unless it starts intagibbing everything in its path, it's just not worthy of the BEST ability on the STRONGEST alien. Not by a long shot, not at all. It's insulting, really!
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> When charging a Marine, it should do a certain amount of damage and toss the Marine in a random direction up and away from the Onos. The damage would be similar to a gore, it would be fixed and not determined by how long you touch them. This would make charge ACTUALLY LIKE CHARGE. Imagine plowing through a hallway filled with HA, knocking them around like bowling pins. I like it!
When charging a structure, the structure should either take massive damage and blow up (like a turret) or if it's a larger structure (basically everything except the Obs and turrets) the Onos should do massive damage and bounce off it. This way the Onos could plow through a base like a pinball, bouncing off structures and sending defending Marines flying.
An idea for acid rocket:
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> Either make it like a bazooka, with a slower firing rate (maybe 1/sec or so) and higher damage (like 75 with a wide splash range) or a rapid fire low damage weapon like it currently is, except tweaked. Perhaps make the acid do corrosive damage (so that it would "stick" and continue doing slight damage to the target every second for a few seconds). Either way, it needs to be more useful.
In regard to the acid rocket, I am of the opinion that it should have high damage, a high energy cost, and a low rate of fire, rather than what it has now, which is the opposite. This change would mean that a Fade would no longer have to concentrate on acid-spamming, and could instead use the acid rocket in conjunction with other abilities.
- Primal Scream, way too short of a duration, make it like 5 seconds please
- Acid Rocket, make it fire as fast as it did in 2.01 but make it deal 60 damage instead of 50, and it will be a true force to reckon with
- Charge, way too weak, make it deal 1000 damage a second and it will be good again
acid rocket needs to be tweaked into a bazooka like weapon, firing a large 'sack' of acid that explodes in a wide area, not as big as bile bomb, and still a projectile. coating the marines in 'acid' instead of 'green kool-aid' <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> and charge? lets see..... right now it does about as much damage as a kitten rubbing againts your leg. i beleive everyones fantasy involves turrets flying through the air and marines screaming as they fall to the ground after the onos knocks 'em over like bowling pins.
an official request to Flayra and the Dev team.
*** Please, for the love of gorges! empower higher-hive lifeforms! ***
<i>im going to make that my new signature i think.</i>
Though I entirely agree that 3rd hive weapons should be game-endlngly powerful, as long as Classic and Combat use the same variables, it can't be done. Why? Because in Combat, 3rd hive abilities can be grabbed much sooner than in a Classic game, and if they're made stronger it would lead to imbalance in Combat. Thus why 3rd hive abilities keep getting nerfed; the maximum amount of webs in an area was decreased, web can now be welded off, acid rocket is a sad shadow of it's 1.04 glory and charge? Seriously does anyone use this except for getting from point A to point B a little faster?
Don't expect 3rd hive weapons to be buffed as long as Classic and Combat use the same ruleset.
Though I entirely agree that 3rd hive weapons should be game-endlngly powerful, as long as Classic and Combat use the same variables, it can't be done. Why? Because in Combat, 3rd hive abilities can be grabbed much sooner than in a Classic game, and if they're made stronger it would lead to imbalance in Combat. Thus why 3rd hive abilities keep getting nerfed; the maximum amount of webs in an area was decreased, web can now be welded off, acid rocket is a sad shadow of it's 1.04 glory and charge? Seriously does anyone use this except for getting from point A to point B a little faster?
Don't expect 3rd hive weapons to be buffed as long as Classic and Combat use the same ruleset. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No not really Ryo.
To get the 4th level ability as a lerk in combat, you need what... to be lv. 5. Fade you gotta be lv. 6, and onos lv. 8, which is just absurd in actuality by how many level ups it takes.
Although xenocide comes at lv. 3, which is very fast, it involves killing yourself, which is a huge penalty so I don't see a problem with xenocide as it is right now.
Not to mention that if 3rd hive abilities were made good again, then we'd also probably see a lot less stalemates.
To get the 4th level ability as a lerk in combat, you need what... to be lv. 5. Fade you gotta be lv. 6, and onos lv. 8, which is just absurd in actuality by how many level ups it takes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lvl 4 - 6 is mid-game; 3rd hive in Classic is end-game. Granted it takes a while for to get charge, so it really should be buffed, but we're running into the same problem, which is:
If you make the 3rd hive weapons in Classic game-enders, they'll dominate Combat too hard. Say you give Acid Rocket it's old 1.04 stats; as soon as a lvl 5 Fade showed up in Classic it's virtually GG. Buff web, and every 3rd level gorge will render entire sections of the map death-traps. Note that this is good for Classic, but bad for Combat, where two lvl 10 players are supposed to be roughly equal, and indeed if both sides are of equal levels the balance is supposed to be maintained.
That's the problem with putting abilities that are supposed to be inherintly unbalanced into a game-mode that's supposed to maintain constant balance; it doesn't work. 3rd hive aliens nowdays are feared because they have 3 spawn points and 3 chambers. The only decent 3rd hive ability is xeno, though as any poor skulk can discover, even it lacks in killing power when directed against bunkered-in marines.
You can easilly say... make it so you need 2 upgrades to get weapon 2 and 3 upgrades to get weapon 3 like in classic. That would mean that 3rd hive weapons wouldn't be any more unbalanced than a grenade launcher in combat.
FIX CLASSIC FLAYARA - COMBAT CAN LOOK AFTER ITSELF. (just change costs / prequiests accordingly)
(edit)
And web max limits? this is absurd! just make webs decay over time and you have no problem. Its not like welders and GLs can't remove all the webs with ease anyway. Web should ALWAYS work when you use it, if it removes the first web placed or not doesn't matter but blocking anynew webs is just silly and retarted and ruins the feel of thegame. Your a gorge with level 4 weapons, but youcan't useit as another gorge webbed up a hiveacross the map while you are facing an HA marine with a HMG?
To get the 4th level ability as a lerk in combat, you need what... to be lv. 5. Fade you gotta be lv. 6, and onos lv. 8, which is just absurd in actuality by how many level ups it takes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lvl 4 - 6 is mid-game; 3rd hive in Classic is end-game. Granted it takes a while for to get charge, so it really should be buffed, but we're running into the same problem, which is:
If you make the 3rd hive weapons in Classic game-enders, they'll dominate Combat too hard. Say you give Acid Rocket it's old 1.04 stats; as soon as a lvl 5 Fade showed up in Classic it's virtually GG. Buff web, and every 3rd level gorge will render entire sections of the map death-traps. Note that this is good for Classic, but bad for Combat, where two lvl 10 players are supposed to be roughly equal, and indeed if both sides are of equal levels the balance is supposed to be maintained.
That's the problem with putting abilities that are supposed to be inherintly unbalanced into a game-mode that's supposed to maintain constant balance; it doesn't work. 3rd hive aliens nowdays are feared because they have 3 spawn points and 3 chambers. The only decent 3rd hive ability is xeno, though as any poor skulk can discover, even it lacks in killing power when directed against bunkered-in marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong again -
Going for abilties at lv. 4 - 7 is mid game, yes, but to do this you forgo other upgrades, such as **regen**, **adren**, **celerity**, etc. etc.
So you are actually very weak if you just rush the 3rd hive abilities.
I'd say Flayra has made a nice dynamic in this aspect, and it's safe for him to make 3rd hive abilities stronger without the fear of overpowering aliens in combat.
I didn't fail to adress anything.
#1. In classic, the goal is not to make 3 hives an auto GG for the aliens. It's to give them extreamlly powerful abilities, but not to make it frustratingly impossible for marines to deal with.
#2. In combat, the goal is not to make the 3 hive abilities an auto GG for the aliens. However, 3 hive abilites should be powerful nonetheless, to the point where it could be exceedingly difficult to combat back as marines. However, this is countered by the fact that when you take more hive abilities you trading it off for more upgrades, such as silence, regen (a biggy), celerity (a biggy), adren (usually a biggy), focus (usually a biggy), carapace, etc. etc.
End-game in classic invariably involves destroying lots of structures (usually sentry turrets).
There are no large structure clusters in Combat.
Solution: Add additional anti-structure capabilities to acid rocket and charge.
I am starting to see a contrast between the Marine ability, when they are ahead in Combat, to rush into a Hive room and completely ignore the Aliens to shoot at the Hive vs the Alien need to slaughter all Marines at Marine start before beginning to munch on the CC. This might help address that a bit.
IF in Combat a Fade gets a beefed up acid rocket as soon as possible, he'll be extraordinarily easy to kill, especially considering that by level 6 I generally have at least level 2 shotty.
And level 8? I usually have HA/JP and a level 2 shotty by then. I'll take on an onos with no upgrades any day of the week.
As it stands, in Combat I <i>NEVER, EVER</i> get my third hive ability. If I have to choose between another upgrade and Primal Scream as my Lerk, I will invariably get another upgrade. Make Primal Scream decent, and I might seriously consider it.
I beg Flayra to make the alien end game a force to be reckoned with again, and make combat have separate rules since it is effecting NS: Classic so much in such a negative way.
I love these idea's:
1) Onos charge doing more dmg and knocking marines out of the way (HA or LA), and having the Onos bounce of large structures while doing mass dmg. As it is a group of LA will make a big circle around you when you rush their base (if they are smart) and pump you full of LMG bullets. By the time you gore/devour one and manage to get out of this circle orgy, you are dead.
2) Longer primal scream is a great idea. Double it's effect timer from what it is now is fine with me.
3) Only make it a certain amount of webs in a 20ft area or something, not the whole map. You can only web up one hive now, and the rest of the map is screwed. Marines should have a hard time moving around with 3 hives and good gorges.
4) AR, make it fire like 3.0b1, but make it do 60dmg per direct hit and it's old splash damage. It takes almost 10 minutes of constant fire to bring down A MARINE RES TOWER!!!
There is no post to it, but I've talked to Flay in person and he wishes that the game remains relatively unchanged to make it more intuitive. No, I do not talk with Flay often, I've seen the man twice maybe on some servers but I managed to ask him the same question when I could.
1- letting newbs practise how to be a fade / use a GL so they don't waste them in NS
2 - lettings servers build up players as NS is rubbish with less than 8.
It gets repetative and boring really quickly, please don't spoil NS in favour of its training mode's balance!
AR needs a boost in damage and be able to do more structure damage.
Charge needs to be more effective, and more structure damage.
Primal Scream needs to last longer.
Web/Xeno are fine.
The point is there, its that structures need to die a little easier under 3rd hive conditions. Again, its not GG with 3rd hive, but it is the end of the middle.
A 3/3 marine team with upgrades should be <b>EQUAL</b> to a 3rd hive alien team with equal res. A 2/2 Should be a little below.
A 2/2 Should be slightly above 2 hives, a 1/1 should be slight below. Mixing the levels there should prove equal to 2nd hive maybe.
Make those nice little general concensus improvements and boom...good times with alien endgame.
EDIT: Note that the 10 per area limit is probably OK -- it's the 30 per entire map that is extremely low.