How Can You Effectively Use Charge?

General_JahGeneral_Jah Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7557Members
I've been playing NS a lot lately with 3.0 coming out, mainly in combat to test out the new abilities of the different aliens/marine combos, and it seems to me that the Onos is really weak or I'm not able to effectively use his abilities. Charge is one of those skills that I just can't seem to get to work. I've charge right into marines and for 320/dam per hit it doesn't seem to do jack. I've also charged right into the command center and not seen any damage worthwhile occur. Is there some art to using charge that I'm missing or is it just a real worthless skill that doesn't work? Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks
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Comments

  • MintmanMintman Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
    The charge as it stands is complete pap. It needs to have like 5x the amount of damage it does now.

    Oh yeah, it's not you it's just that charge is pap.
  • XCanXCan Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
    Actually, I do think charge got beefed up some however not near how it was in 1.04. Next time try standing on top of a marine building and initiate charge, the thing is you need to keep yourself pressed onto the things you attack.
  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
    Charge went from 80 to 300 damage per second from 2.01 to 3.0betas, or numbers that are close anyhoo.

    To use it correctly: 1) search, as there have been many topics about this before
    2) Hold down the forward key as you press against something, or stand on top of it. Otherwise pretty much no damage
    3) Ducking (while still holding forward) slows you down, making it easier to connect with your charge instead of blowing past your prey. Obviously, only go slow when you've caught them!
  • WirheWirhe Join Date: 2003-06-22 Member: 17610Members
    IMO, charge is pretty much poo at the moment. Just yesterday I tried charging against 3 marines, all in a nice line, in a narrow corridor. Yes, the might onos roars like a bull'o'doom and sprints forward a ton of pure muscle. What happens? The "mighty" three hive onos crashes against the first marine like he would crash against a wall; and very much to a similar effect. Meaning: a few cracks and snaps, but not much else.

    C'mon, 3 hive onos with all upgrades? Can't get past one, louzy marine? Next, one sneaks behind the onos, and by the time the first marine is dead (~2 seconds), all the marines have emptied their clips. Now, how much damage lv.3 LMG did, full clip? Throw in a few shotguns.

    That's what happened to me: onos got toasted because he stopped dead to his tracks for 2 seconds, not causing any visible damage at all. Needless to say; "never again charge."

    Guess that is the same reason no one else uses it; gore is so much easier to use and more reliable. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I never saw a reliable charge after 1.04
  • General_JahGeneral_Jah Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7557Members
    Thanks for the input guys. Would be nice if some of the playtesters whos opinion actually matters might relay to the powers that be a few tweaks to charge might be necessary <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • BasinxBasinx Join Date: 2004-01-16 Member: 25370Members
    Ya i've never killed anything with charge
  • Florp_IncarnateFlorp_Incarnate Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3045Members
    I have found that it does a good amount of damage against buildings, moreso than gorge. However, in order to use it efficiently you really have to get yourself perpendicular to a flat side of the hitbox so that you don't just push right past the building. If you are rushing into hostile territory, you probably don't have time to orient yourself with a particular building's hitbox... it is safer just to gore it a few times and run.

    I think that charge is the single ability in ns that needs to be either completely replaced or rethought in implimentation.

    [OldF] Florp Incarnate
  • NupiNupi Join Date: 2002-12-16 Member: 10898Members
    edited February 2004
    I have managed to get 3 kills .. with charge. heh :o . But the truth is that i haven't used it much. Anyway here's how it happened.

    I chased this one lmg guy, and decided to charge. ROAR! I didn't actually run at him directly (facing my aim on him), and i didn't seem to quite touch him as he fell before i ran over his corpse perhaps the distance was similar to bite/gore/devour distance. Ahem, and i took down one HA guy with charge pretty much the same way. If i remember correctly, i think i aimed at his legs.

    HitBox collide is only needed so you don't have to charge directly at your target since onos is big/wide, you can try to get past him but still hitting him from the sides. Next time when i'm playing combat perhaps its time to practice the art of charging <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.

    edit: In LAN game vs bots (or humans) charge works nicely, i think it might be happening too fast for the Internet Server to register or something strange, maybe you have to duck while charging (& moving forward) = slower movement but same damage.. mmmm.. onos time! (i hope..)
  • MintmanMintman Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
    The only use for charge is to move faster or to cause embarassment for the marine. It's nearly easier to kill someone with parasite than it is to charge them.
  • Doobie_DanDoobie_Dan Join Date: 2003-10-23 Member: 21892Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+Feb 2 2004, 03:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Feb 2 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Charge went from 80 to 300 damage per second from 2.01 to 3.0betas, or numbers that are close anyhoo. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    240/sec to 320/sec if I recall correctly. Similar boosting to leap, which seems to have the exact same issues with not causing damage in the first place. To be honest though, in 6 months of playing NS 2.01, I saw ONE leap kill and ONE charge kill, and I've seen about 3 leaps and at least 8 charge kills since the public beta (mostly due to people not having to be as careful in combat, experimenting more). I remember in 2.01 I bit a marine once then got three leaps point blank against him, and still didn't kill him. So they're both quirky.

    Just gore while you charge - even if it worked properly there's no reason you shouldn't. The extra speed is nice for a run-through-the-base. What I would like to see is to have charge have a heavy blowback like xenocide, so charging through a line of marines would fling them off to the sides, without necessarily killing them. Basically kind of a "get the hell out of my way, I got a TF to kill." It seems realistic, why should marines be able to form a human wall to stop an onos?
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-XCan+Feb 2 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Feb 2 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I do think charge got beefed up some however not near how it was in 1.04. Next time try standing on top of a marine building and initiate charge, the thing is you need to keep yourself pressed onto the things you attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    back in 1.04 all all you have to do is stand on a structure and look down, then charge and go O_O as the structure takes massive damage, I think that trick still works, charge applies damage per touch
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    I once thought that charge damage should be either the movespeed or a multipul of the movespeed. Say the onos with cerelity goes 300 max speed (which it most likely doesn't, but this is just an example). he runs into a group of marines in the same situation as listed above... he hits the first marine, 300 damage is instantly done to the marine and the onos move speed is reduced to 0 (for how long can be tested) he then continues towards the next marine building up speed. now for this to effectively work, you would need some type of counter for the movespeed on the onos Hud. Another thing you could consider is change how the onos picks up speed. Right now i believe it takes literally seconds to reach full speed... now something as big as an onos would seem to me something that would take some distance to pick up speed. This can be changed to balance the "ultimate" ability for the onos.

    I like Charge the ability, it really fits the onos... but right now it sucks. Please realise that damage over time abilities suck unless you can shoot them (spores) and run away letting the damage soak into the rines.
  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Feb 4 2004, 02:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Feb 4 2004, 02:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+Feb 2 2004, 03:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Feb 2 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Charge went from 80 to 300 damage per second from 2.01 to 3.0betas, or numbers that are close anyhoo. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    240/sec to 320/sec if I recall correctly. Similar boosting to leap, which seems to have the exact same issues with not causing damage in the first place. To be honest though, in 6 months of playing NS 2.01, I saw ONE leap kill and ONE charge kill, and I've seen about 3 leaps and at least 8 charge kills since the public beta (mostly due to people not having to be as careful in combat, experimenting more). I remember in 2.01 I bit a marine once then got three leaps point blank against him, and still didn't kill him. So they're both quirky. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No no, I'm pretty sure about the 2.01 damages (40 for leap 80 for charges). Leap got a fairly small increase, but charge at least tripled in damage for 3.0.

    In the 2.0 release, charge and leap had just been fixed to not rely on framrate anymore, so weren't anywhere close to balanced.
  • NightCrawlerzNightCrawlerz Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
    You cant eefectivly use either leap or charge.

    leap and charge share the same code, just differnt damage numbers.

    leap and charge do damage per TOUCH not per second. Once you understand that it does damage per touch NOT persecond youll realise that a single leap has a potential to deal 80 damage BUt realisticly does like 8 10 damage touches within a second. Both charge and leap are coded this way.

    Back in 1.04 leap was fine... perfectly fine. At 60-70 fps the damage was enough to make in viable agiast both LA and HA marines, but not so much that marines had no chance. The damage didnt need to be raped to all hell like flayra did to it. Having it set to kill a lvl 3 armor LA marine in 1 second is perfectly acceptable. Leap is very hard to aim when trying to deal damage to a strafing marine. I dont know what flay was thining, but he probobly was getting a bunch of ***** letters from "vetrens" saying that poeple liek me were obliterating HA and LA marines with 2 - 1 leaps respectivly. How is leaping into the face of a LA marine that was camping in the corner and killign him in 1 second unbalanced? in 1.04 you could also kill Noob HA marines in 2 seconds with 2 leaps. How you ask? Well heres the situation.

    im sitting on the ceiling in sewer hive. A single HA HMG marine walks in moves into a corner and crouches. So i leap off the ceiling onto his head. First leap #1 second- he doesnt move but looks franticly back and forth. Second leap #2 second- still sits there crouchign while wondering were the hell i am. Then he dies.... so instead of moving around to avoid taking damage, he sits their and after he dies he shouts ABUSE ABUSE ABUSE ABUSE ABUSE!!! I killed an HA marine who stood still in a corner camping... weres the justice, were?
  • LednehLedneh Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 19016Members, Constellation
    I feel I should let it be known that I really, REALLY like the make-charge-do-something-like-"Get the hell outta my way, I got a TF to murder" idea. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • NightCrawlerzNightCrawlerz Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
    lol yeah that is a good idea for charge... thats if anyone gets around to improving it.

    sigh.... id hate for ns to go the way of cs.. 100's of guns but only 4 are effective.
    thats what im seeing right now. The primary attacks and secondary attacks are thought out... but past that the abilitys for each class seems to trail off into a acid induced balance trip. I mean how could almost 1000 pts NOT see that charge and leap didnt do jack squat? i noticed it within the first 4 minutes of the first game i played..... you only have to use both abilitys once to understand that your not going to get kills from them... i jsut dont understand.
  • BugBrainBugBrain Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16279Members
    I do agree that they could use more damage or something, but they are not there entirely for kills. The are both movement abilities that have thier uses. Leaping skulks are quite difficult to hit. Leap around, waste the rines ammo, close in for the kill. Or leap right at em for a surprise attack (not a good idea against shotties, though). Combine with a focus bite, you can do massive damage. I've killed one or two slightly injured heavies this way in CO. Leap+xeno is obvious. Leap is definety not worthless, but I think it does deserve a buff.

    Charge gives the onos a quick way outta trouble. Someone once described it as the onos panic button. Useful, yet not three hive material. I too like the blowback idea for charge. Very realistic.
  • NightCrawlerzNightCrawlerz Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
    edited February 2004
    see the thing is that flayra purposefully removed quick switching for aleins, But some how in steam i dont think he can block it now. Flayra doesnt want you leap biting or blink swiping... In several versions he tried to remove the ability to quick switch. It seems that steam does indeed>flayra.

    Edit ::the delay between switching was indeed unitentional NOT a script preventions thing. Mods have no problem with leap biting and is a viable part of the game
  • BugBrainBugBrain Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16279Members
    Oh, so fastwitch leap/bite blink/swipe is <i>unintentional</i>? I always thought it was legit. Is this due to script abuse?
  • NightCrawlerzNightCrawlerz Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
    edited February 2004
    it was removed in the won version of 2.0 and 2.1 because of the rampant script abuse. The 2.1 steam beta and 3.0 steam beta have quick switch renabled and unless told otherwise i dont think flay can disable it in steam.

    Edit ::the delay between switching was indeed unitentional NOT a script preventions thing. Mods have no problem with leap biting and is a viable part of the game
  • eagleceaglec Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
    I think we should face facts, if the aliens have a 3 hive onos or perhaps more than one then the game should be entering the endgame stage. Most likely marines are penned up in base at this stage and thus charge *should* be a game ender.

    The Knockback is a good idea, and if introduced the per touche damage should be ramped up to kill a lvl0 LA marine in 1 touch. Yes this would make charge a very powerful weapon BUT as a 3rd hive ability on the powerful alien class in the game it should be.

    I tried charge again yesterday, repeatedly charging into a base full of LA marines and redeeming before making a single kill, in the end I went in with good old fashioned 1 hive gore and ripped the base apart. This is just wrong. It might even be worth swapping gore and charge round so charge is a 1 hive ability, meaning the onos is only really any use as a base crusher until hive 3.

    In my view three things need to be addresses for the aliens as a matter of urgency

    Blink - atmosphere
    Ranged attacks - needs a spike replacement/alternate
    Charge - currently useless.
  • NightCrawlerzNightCrawlerz Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
    Dont forget about leap!

    * fix leap damage so that 1 leap can do more than enough damage to kill an LA marine.

    * make 4 touches of charge be enough to kill an LA marine (because i think theres 4 touches possible in a second)
  • KoniaXKoniaX Join Date: 2003-02-16 Member: 13641Members, Constellation
    IMO, the onos charge is worthless. Once I get 3 hives, i dont use the charge, i only wait for the 3rd chamber to be put up. CHARGE SUX
  • Malakai1Malakai1 Join Date: 2003-09-14 Member: 20845Members
    Charge is good for getting away, but it should be enough to demolish a marine team.

    We're talking 80 res for the 2nd and 3rd hives, plus 75 res for the Onos itself. 155 res is a hella lot for a fairly useless ability.
  • eagleceaglec Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-NightCrawler.+Feb 5 2004, 04:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Feb 5 2004, 04:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dont forget about leap!

    * fix leap damage so that 1 leap can do more than enough damage to kill an LA marine.

    * make 4 touches of charge be enough to kill an LA marine (because i think theres 4 touches possible in a second) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I wasn't forgetting leap... but I have seen leap used with focus bite and I'd say thats pretty damn powerful....
  • SpyderShadowSpyderShadow Join Date: 2004-02-06 Member: 26140Members
    best is when lerks spore the whole area and you charge right in <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • ElestiaElestia Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1130Members
    I miss 1.04 charge.. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • KotchKotch Join Date: 2003-09-23 Member: 21141Members
    edited February 2004
    My favorite use of charge is to charge in, devour a Heavy, and charge out. They don't know what hit them. lol And, OMG, if you put 3 movements in the marine base and have adrenaline, you can charge forever. I must have killed 20 marines in their base on a NS map yesterday. The damage is almost right. Just a little more damage, and it should be fine. Much better than it was before.
  • Doobie_DanDoobie_Dan Join Date: 2003-10-23 Member: 21892Members, Constellation
    edited February 2004
    Hehe, if you have 3 movement chambers IN the marine base, I think it's safe to say that you've already won, and you're just going through a 3-course dinner of beacon meals. (Smash base, kill marines, HONK HONK HONK yay here comes dessert!) I love the 3.0 beacon by the way. Fun to repeatedly do it after you've already won and there's a gorge hiding in the vent (do not try this unless you want to be ejected).

    On topic, this idea for charge seems to be getting support everywhere, and other people have suggested it too. It doesn't even have to do much damage to marines, just maybe 20-50 but knock them 10 feet away, then when you touch a building it does 400-500 damage and the charge ends. What do we have to do to get this suggested? (Lord knows the I&S forums are worthless...)
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