Skulk Bite Range

ZiGGY · February 2004

Based on this thread:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61075' target='_blank'>1.</a>

Does anyone feel the new biterange is "unnatural" and regardless of balance and whatever seems to give you a headache whenever it happens? I for one do get a bit of a mindstrain when Im bit from a skulk who is 1.5-2.5times his own size distance away. This places (almost) out of the natural (non mouse adjusted) forward shotgun range, this is, I gather, its most likely intention however I cant help but not like it. It makes dodging skulks almost totally impossible now, again possibly the intention, but crouch-strafe and circle-strafe-bite jumps no longer seem to help. Does anyone else find the current adjustments unsettling?

Forlorn · February 2004

Okay, it's nothing strange, it's just how the movement code was tweaked.

Here is the explanation I made a long time ago in the vet forums, as I adressed Fa1lure:
This is how the movement prediction code always worked in 1.04:

Low Pinger sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> --------------- <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' />

High Pinger sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' />

Server sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> ----------------- <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' />

Result: High pinger is frustrated as alien, low pinger wonders why the skulk sucks so badly.

Also, if the high pinger is the marine and the low pinger is the skulk, then:

High pinger sees (250++): <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> ----------- <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' />

Low pinger (60++) sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' />

Server sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' />

Result: High pinger, once again, dies to the low ping alien, however, the high pinger will at least hit him because weapon predicion code is top notch. The high pinger will see a skulk bite him from 2 feet away in his screen, or see the skulk make a sudden jump right into his face. Fa1lure, this is probably what you see. Remember, weapon prediction code works for ALL hitscan weapons. This would be all marine weapons except for the GL, and no alien weapons except for parasite, spikes, healspray, and paralyize (old onos attack). The high pinger, if he acts fast enough, and if the low pinger sucks, can win in these situations. Lagging as a marine isn't NEARLY as bad as a lagging alien.

Also, keep in mind that as alien, changing to certain attacks like leap, blink, are ping dependant, making the aliens even MORE ping dependant.

In 2.xx, the movement code was tweaked a little, but from my experience it's basically what was there in 1.xx, but it's still easier to kill a marine as a high pinging skulk in 2.xx over 1.xx because marine hitboxes are perfect in 2.xx whereas they were terribly borked in 1.xx.

Now, lets go to the special case of 3.xx:

Max and Flay have probably known about the lack of any movement prediction code that rendered high pinging aliens harmless in 1.xx and 2.xx. Obviously anyone who's competed overseas in 1.xx and 2.xx will know exactly what I'm talking about, having the home team advantage is quite enourmous, esp when on aliens. In addition, any 56K'ers (if they still are around) probably hate the fact that they are crap as most alien classes. So I guess Max and Flay decided to do something about it, and so Flay gave Max the task of changing the movement prediciton code so that high pingers can at least hit their targets.

And the results for 3.xx with the new movement prediction code:

High pinger sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' />

Low pinger sees: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> ------------------ <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' />

Server sees that the low pinger is far away, but the server also now checks the high pinger's story, that he connected with the marine at a certain location. To make sure this location isn't fabricated, he checks with the low pinger - and the server sees that the low pinger was indeed at that spot at one point.

So the result for the high pinger: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> And he makes contact!

So the result for the low pinger: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> ---------------- <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> And he makes contact!

Result in human terms: High pinger is glad that his bites connect. Low pinger is like, "WTH!!!!!!!!11", but I assure you, this is NOT a bug, it is a feature, designed to help high pingers by utilizing movement prediction code. Also, it's not like the high pinger has the advantage over the low pinger... the low pinger still has several advantages:

- If the weapon prediction code tells the server he killed the player before the player could move to the contact spot, then that player will be killed. Low pingers will still send this info to the server faster and kill the high pinger before the high pinger can send that he made contact. The low pinger still is faster to kill with overall.

Now, what is weird about this new movement code for low pingers:

<b>You don't know exactly where they are. </b>You can't really time your jumps around a skulk who has a high ping, because the skulk could be nearly half a second difference than yourself, so you actually have to make the move almost a good second before the high pinger can make his move. It takes a little practice to get used to but I'm sure that almost all decent players will learn to work the new movement code in due time, just expected to get owned a few times you didn't think you would be owned at.

This system isn't unfair, it is a great thing which levels the playing field for all pings.

One last point to cover:

Lets say we have a low pinging skulk vs. a high pinging marine in 3.xx:

The results are the same as in 1.xx and 2.xx. Since all the ping is with the marines, it's more about weapon prediction code than it is movement prediction code.

It should be pretty odd for most seasoned FPS players, as I'm fairly sure no one has seen the likes of this new movement prediction code before, not one other HL mode has this to my knowledge and I've never seen in on any other game.

So to Fa1lure: the problem is your high ping most likely.

To all of us lower pingers though, the new skulks biting you from one mile away is due to the new movement prediction code, which is great, it definatly makes playing overseas less of a chore.

Also, a little education on the ex_ commands:

None of them are abusive in the sense they were put into the engine designed to give unfair advantages.

However, each and every ex_ command should be tweaked with a mathamatical formula, and not the number guess of a human being which can alter the numbers to an unfair advantage on their machine.

ZiGGY · February 2004

so how on earth am I supposed to kill a skulk with 1 shot from a shotgun with my sub 10 national ping?

Forlorn · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Feb 2 2004, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> so how on earth am I supposed to kill a skulk with 1 shot from a shotgun with my sub 10 national ping?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
by shooting him

Immacolata · February 2004

Nice explanation Forlorn! It should be FAQified.

ZiGGY · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 4 2004, 04:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Feb 2 2004, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> so how on earth am I supposed to kill a skulk with 1 shot from a shotgun with my sub 10 national ping? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
by shooting him  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
hes out of range when he bites me

ZiGGY · February 2004

I should also mention the skulk isnt dodging or bhing in anyway hes just running at me in a straight line, but hes out of shotgun range, any other form of shot manipulation also results in his focus bite getting in before i get in range.

Immacolata · February 2004

Pistol him a few times to soften him up, then finish him off with a load of buckshot. Works when they try to toy with you, doesn't work when you're ambushed <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

ZiGGY · February 2004

this threads going a bti off topic. It just feels really weird when a skulk can bite me from so far away, which is the point of the thread the aesthetics. Ill just stick to the lmg and mow em all down but does this mean I now have to compensate from a random alien attack range (from observation by many many independent players) from normal to almost 3 times its normal? I dont like the sound of that personally.

Forlorn · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Feb 3 2004, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> this threads going a bti off topic. It just feels really weird when a skulk can bite me from so far away, which is the point of the thread the aesthetics. Ill just stick to the lmg and mow em all down but does this mean I now have to compensate from a random alien attack range (from observation by many many independent players) from normal to almost 3 times its normal? I dont like the sound of that personally.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Don't you get what I posted Ziggy?

The reason you see skulks bite you one mile away is because of the new movement prediction code.

Immacolata · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 4 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Don't you get what I posted Ziggy?

The reason you see skulks bite you one mile away is because of the new movement prediction code.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
He is in denial!

ZiGGY · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 4 2004, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Feb 3 2004, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> this threads going a bti off topic. It just feels really weird when a skulk can bite me from so far away, which is the point of the thread the aesthetics. Ill just stick to the lmg and mow em all down but does this mean I now have to compensate from a random alien attack range (from observation by many many independent players) from normal to almost 3 times its normal? I dont like the sound of that personally. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Don't you get what I posted Ziggy?

The reason you see skulks bite you one mile away is because of the new movement prediction code.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
And... that range is ping dependent, which we can treat as a random variable...

Immacolata · February 2004

As I understand it, the range is only random from your POV. If the alien hits, it hits.

ZiGGY · February 2004

I read: Due to the aliens being allowed to lag behind whilst moving results in them appearing out of range whilst biting. this lag is ping dependent until combat, this results in a random bite range but no erroneous hitbox resulting in skulks having a random bite range from a marine perspective, again dependent on his/her ping.

Forlorn · February 2004

When you are in game, it won't look like he bites you in front of you, it should look like the blood marks are from a previous spot you were away from.

d0omie · February 2004

this mean vs shotties you WANT to have a high ping? then you can close the gap and bite him while he sees you as being out of shotgun range?

Forlorn · February 2004

Don't think that having a high ping is nessesarly great, you see them bounce around due to ping issues, also the person with a lower ping will send their info to the server faster and thus kill the other player quicker.

Yes, remember, if your client sends the information containing the fact you dealt enough damage to the server before their client can, YOU WIN.

Low pingers still have an advatage, but not nearly as much as before now that the movement prediction code has been dealt with.

However, like I said before, it can be rather disorienting to see a skulk bite you one mile away, because you can't nessesarly predict where they are 104 miliseconds into the future. My only suggestion to you is to keep moving, so it's easier to dodge.

wRaven · February 2004

It's annoying eaither way.

ZiGGY · February 2004

no it doesnt mean its balanced at all, the fact that people try to nurture people who have pings higher than reaction times is a joke in itself but ultimately we will see someone find a way to simulate the symptoms of being a hpb allowing him his extended range whenever he wants. And all in the name of balance for an obsolete medium of communication hooray for the ingenuity.

Diablo_fx · February 2004

Geez just lock, delete and never show anyone this again <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' />

Cxwf · February 2004

One point that most people don't seem to be getting: If a high-ping-skulk charges a low-ping marine down a hallway, the skulk still has to get just as close to the marine as he always did, he's just seeing the marine a 1/2 second (or whatever) in the past. This means the only time the range should look increased is when you are moving backwards, as your past self will then be in front of you. If you move sideways or forwards his range should stay the same or even shrink.

Varsity · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 6 2004, 04:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> One point that most people don't seem to be getting: If a high-ping-skulk charges a low-ping marine down a hallway, the skulk still has to get just as close to the marine as he always did, he's just seeing the marine a 1/2 second (or whatever) in the past. This means the only time the range should look increased is when you are moving backwards, as your past self will then be in front of you. If you move sideways or forwards his range should stay the same or even shrink.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Figures. I'll have to remeber that. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

Skulk Bite Range

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