The Man Who Tried To Blow Up Hitler...

MulletMullet Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15910Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Fark pwnage</div> I got this off of fark..... <a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=573&e=1&u=/nm/20040209/od_nm/people_hitler_plotter_dc' target='_blank'>Clicky!</a>

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hitler's Would-Be Killer Dreams of Dead Friends 
Mon Feb 9, 8:56 AM ET  Add Oddly Enough - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Kerstin Gehmlich

PARIS (Reuters) - Philipp von Boeselager's sleep is troubled by furtive chats with conspirators, concealed bombs and a desperate horseback ride from the battlefield on the day he and his friends tried to kill Hitler.

 

In his dreams, the 86-year old baron talks to friends and co-plotters -- high-ranking German military officials -- who tried to blow up Adolf Hitler with a bomb on July 20, 1944 and who were killed or committed suicide when the attempt failed.


"If you are the only one among some 100 who is still alive, that makes you think. I feel they are watching me and I have a certain responsibility toward them," Boeselager told Reuters in Paris, where he received the prestigious Legion of Honor medal.


"I call on young people to get politically involved, to feel responsible for their country. If that's not happening and if someone like (Nazi propaganda minister Joseph) Goebbels appeared today -- as millions are unemployed -- I would be very scared."


In postwar Germany, the July 20 attack has become a famous symbol for German resistance to the Nazi regime, discussed in school lessons and honored in museums.


Army officer Boeselager was only 25 when he was asked to join a secret team of officers who planned to kill the dictator -- and who were ready to sacrifice their own lives.


"We were convinced that even if July 20 had been successful, we would have been hanged because the mass of Germans believed Hitler. They would have said: 'If Hitler was still alive, we would have won the war'," he said.


Boeselager, an elegant man dressed in a dark suit who wears his hair carefully combed back, said the wish to halt the Nazis mattered more to the men than the danger of death.


"Each day Hitler ruled, thousands died unnecessarily -- soldiers, because of his stupid leadership decisions. And later, I learned of concentration camps, where Jews, Poles, Russians -- human beings -- were being killed.


"It was clear that these orders came from the top: I realized I lived in a criminal state. It was horrible. We wanted to end the war and free the concentration camps."


BOMBS PACKED IN LEATHER SUITCASE


Boeselager and his brother Georg belonged to a group of plotters around Colonel Henning von Tresckow on the Eastern Front, who used his access to senior officers to try to recruit them for his idea. Several planned attacks failed before 1944.


Boeselager, who worked in an explosives team, was charged with organizing a bomb for July 20: "One day, my brother called and said: 'They want explosives' -- I knew exactly what for."


In his brown leather suitcase, Boeselager smuggled several British bombs -- "I realized English ones were the best" -- to General Hellmuth Stieff at Army High Command.


"Getting out of the plane, I was limping, because I had been injured in the leg. Several young soldiers came up to me, offering to carry my suitcase. But I refused. I thought they would notice at once that the suitcase was far too heavy."


As Stieff was in a meeting when Boeselager arrived, he went to a cinema to wait: "They were showing a comedy but I didn't pay attention. I was worried someone would trip over my suitcase."


CARRYING CYANIDE

 



On July 20, 1944, Hitler met officials at his so-called Wolf's Lair headquarters in today's Poland, a secluded area in the woods, tightly watched and protected by thousands of mines, but to which one leading conspirator had access.

Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, a tall German aristocrat who deeply opposed the Nazis' treatment of Jews, planted one of Boeselager's bombs in a briefcase under a table close to Hitler.

The bomb exploded after Stauffenberg had left the room, killing four men -- but Hitler survived almost unscathed.

"Stauffenberg was the wrong man for this, but no one else had the guts," Boeselager said, noting that previous injuries including the loss of an eye, a hand and two more fingers would have handicapped Stauffenberg in the assassination bid.

Lacking time, Stauffenberg had only used one bomb instead of two as originally planned. An open window or a heavy table shielding Hitler could also have saved the dictator's life.

Hitler immediately launched a merciless hunt for the plotters.

In the days after the attack, the Nazis killed Stieff, Stauffenberg and many accomplices. Relatives of the plotters were arrested and Tresckow, like many others, committed suicide.

Historians say thousands were killed or sent to concentration camps in the purge. Though the Nazis brutally tortured the conspirators, no one revealed Boeselager's name.

The plotters had planned that Boeselager should lead a troop of some 1,000 horsemen from the eastern front to Berlin after Hitler's assassination, where they would seize key Nazi bodies.

Having ridden 200 kilometers (125 miles) toward the airport they were to leave from, Boeselager got a message from his brother: 'All back to the old holes' -- code meaning the attack had failed.

Boeselager ordered the soldiers, who were not aware of the plot, to make an immediate about face, riding back eastwards to the front before anyone could find out their secret movement.

"I was sure we would be noticed. Some 1,000 riders make up a huge caravan stretching over a few kilometers," Boeselager said.

"And the soldiers must have been suspicious: First, they are asked to ride westwards at one hell of a speed. And then, the command is to ride back eastwards as quickly as possible."

Boeselager returned to the front after the failed attack but he said he carried cyanide on him every single day until the war ended -- convinced the Nazis would eventually find him out. His brother Georg also eluded capture, but died in battle.

After the war, the officer studied economics and became a forestry expert. Over the front door of his house in Kreuzberg near the western city of Bonn, a sign reads "Et si omnes ego non -- Even if all, not me."


<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I thought it was pretty cool....... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Comments

  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    Yes, I've heard about this. Brave men. Supposedly, the table in that room was a massive, thick wooden thing, and could have stopped the blast quite easily. Aparently it was pure bad luck that Hitler wasn't killed; I seem to remember that he just happened to walk to a spot in the room which put him out of the bomb's blast.
  • Sniper_ChanceSniper_Chance Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10549Members
    There's also a story of an American soldier in WWI who was about to kill a wounded German corporal, but decided to show mercy and left him in peace. Later he found out that this German soldier was in fact <i>Adolf Hitler</i>.

    Man, he must have had second thoughts then.
  • kidakida Join Date: 2003-02-20 Member: 13778Members
    Or that it was fate, who allowed such a man like Hitler to live?
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-kida+Feb 10 2004, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Feb 10 2004, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or that it was fate, who allowed such a man like Hitler to live? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No, it's chance. If he <i>had</i> killed that German corporal we'd never have heard about it. Along those lines, think about how many potential dictators may have been killed in combat before they got political. Can't think of anyone? Of course not, we have no way of knowing.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    Of course, even if you kill Hitler you've still got the social and political conditions in Germany during the 1920's and 1930's which are fertile grounds for extreamist political movements. The harsh peace terms of the Versailles treaty essentially made another war inevitable. The German people after the war were increasingly impovrished, angry and chafing for revenge. In such conditions, a fanatical leader would have risen, and taking Hitler out of the picture just leaves the door open for others. Personally, I think we got pretty lucky with Hitler; if another leader had come to power who was more intelligant, knew about military tactics and was able to fully exploit the resources of Germany, including it's Jewish scientists, WWII could have gone very, very differantly.
  • ConfuzorConfuzor Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
    edited February 2004
    You have to check this site out:

    <a href='http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Center.htm' target='_blank'>The Conspiracy to Destrory Hitler</a>

    Yes, the design isn't that great, but the information provided is absolutely stunning. Some of the stories are great, such as <a href='http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Munich.htm' target='_blank'>The Lone Assassin</a> - another guy who nearly turned Hitler to chunks, and it's spectacular to see <a href='http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Bonhoeffer.htm' target='_blank'>a Christian justifying the assasination of Hitler</a>. Now that's a crusade done right!

    17 attempts... 17!

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the afternoon of July 20, 1944, Joseph Goebbels is conducting business as usual in his Propaganda Ministry within Berlin's government quarter. Meanwhile, Colonel von Stauffenberg and fellow conspirators at Berlin's Bendlerstrasse Home Army headquarters have set Operation Valkyrie (the long-awaited coup attempt against Hitler) in motion by sending all the Valkyrie forces they can muster into the government quarter. As Goebbels sits at his desk, Major Ernst Remer (who turns against the conspirators only a few hours later) accompanied by a detachment of Valkyrie troops burst into Goebbels's study with news that Hitler had been assassinated and that the Reich Minister is under arrest. Goebbels, reacting calmly, picks up the telephone and assures Remer that that Hitler has escaped only slightly injured and that Remer should call himself.

    After Goebbels phones the Wolf's Lair and hands the receiver to Remer, the latter hears Adolf Hitler himself on the other end assure him that he is alive and well. Hitler then appoints Remer to Colonel and ordrs him to suppress the coup. Remer complies immediately. According to Albert Speer, immediately after the failure of Stauffenberg's uprising, Goebbels joyfully gave SS Chief Heinrich Himmler a detailed account of the day's events as he had witnessed them. Goebbels concluded contemptuously:

    "If they [the plotters] hadn't been so clumsy! They had an enormous chance. What dolts! What childishness! When I think how I would have handled such a thing. Why didn't they occupy the radio station and spread the wildest lies? Here they put the guards in front of my door. But they let me go right ahead and telephone the Fuehrer, mobilize everything! They didn't even silence my telephone. To hold so many trumps and botch it - what beginners!" (Speer, 523).


    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Damn... that calm ****... he could of been just a regular schmuck. But nooo....
    he had to be exempt from military service.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He was a frail man, unimpressive in his stature. One of his legs was longer than the other, because he suffered from a clubbed foot.
    During the start of WW I, he tried to join the army. The recruiting officer took one look at Joseph and then laughed in his face. Joseph went home a cried for hours.

    - amiannoying.com<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Really sad that the allies didn't want to help out the conspirators. And the fact that many of them were executed just months before the war ended just adds insult to injury...
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Feb 9 2004, 09:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 9 2004, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, even if you kill Hitler you've still got the social and political conditions in Germany during the 1920's and 1930's which are fertile grounds for extreamist political movements. The harsh peace terms of the Versailles treaty essentially made another war inevitable. The German people after the war were increasingly impovrished, angry and chafing for revenge. In such conditions, a fanatical leader would have risen, and taking Hitler out of the picture just leaves the door open for others. Personally, I think we got pretty lucky with Hitler; if another leader had come to power who was more intelligant, knew about military tactics and was able to fully exploit the resources of Germany, including it's Jewish scientists, WWII could have gone very, very differantly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm going to concur with Ryo here. Hitler made so many tactical and strategical mistakes, in which he could have easily take Europe (...well, not easily, but he could have done it).

    Attacking Russia, stopping the attack on British air forces in favor of civillian targets [because some British bomber dropped a bomb on Berlin], Dunkirk [although that's not completely his fault], the battle of Kiev, makine the Jews of Germany scapegoats despite much of their scientific prowless, etc.

    Sure, no one's going to be a perfect tactician... but if you've got Russia as a neutral country/minor ally....you DON'T attack them. Common Sense != Hitler.

    [on another side note: try not to trust most of the information on the History Channel, some of it is wrong, much is inaccurate, some is right]

    Hitler assassination conspiracies are always interesting though. So many times Hitler was almost close to biting it. Strange no one got him in his condo (forget what city) where only one guard was protecting him.

    Twilight Zone has an episode where a guy is trying to assassinate a leader (pretty sure it's Hitler), but he gets interupted, and then they find out he's a sniper and he gets arrested or shot or something. Or, the one where the lady goes back and time to become Hitler's dad's nanny. Long episode short, she steals the baby [hitler] and jumps in the river....but the other nanny steals a [jewish] baby off the street and plays it off as the original baby.

    Both interesting, fairly thought provoking things.
  • AeaAea Join Date: 2003-10-09 Member: 21552Members
    I watched this one show once, he was more then likely a druggie (speed), and suffered (oh dear that's not the word I need here) from Parkinsins (sp?).
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    I think that was Teen Wolf.
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    If Hitler Hadnt come along, the world probably would have been different. Communist russia would have been the enemy of the 40's, the cold war wouldnt have come about as we have known it and Japan would be a major asian power dominating large swathes of china and naturally Indo-china (vietnam) and korea.

    Nukes would also have never come into play, until late in the game. By which time I can assure you this cold war would have turned hot.

    In any case, rocket technology wouldnt have come into play, millions of jews may not have been slaughtered but who's to say that Stalin or some other dictator wouldnt have initiated similar actions against another minority?

    This is all naturally conjecture, but it is always fun to speculate of alternate timelines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    Try Hearts of Iron...it lets you play ANY nation in the world starting in I think 1939 (...maybe earlier). It actually takes quite a bit of work to get WW2 just as it turned out.

    It's fun to be a no-name nation too...heh. I wonder if you can buy it anymore...it has to be at least 3 years old.
  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dunkirk [although that's not completely his fault], <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, that was his fault, he told Guderian to slow down because he thought the allies would surrender. That enabled them to escape.

    Inicdently Cronos, Stalin did massacre a huge amount of people, especially after the war where they had a pretty big purge. Many who were taken prisoner by the Germans were executed because the NKVD were afraid they had been corrupted.

    Rather nutty the Russians were.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+Feb 10 2004, 12:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Feb 10 2004, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In any case, rocket technology wouldnt have come into play, millions of jews may not have been slaughtered but who's to say that Stalin or some other dictator wouldnt have initiated similar actions against another minority? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The terrible thing is that Stalin did in fact commit genocide. Even though I'm Jewish myself, I have to say that Stalin's acts were even more vile than Hitler's since Stalin killed millions of <i>his own people</i>. I can almost understand hatred towards a different people, a minority group who are different and seem strange, but to orchestrate the deaths of millions who are no different from you in any way at <i>all</i>...
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Feb 10 2004, 12:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Feb 10 2004, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dunkirk [although that's not completely his fault], <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, that was his fault, he told Guderian to slow down because he thought the allies would surrender. That enabled them to escape.

    Inicdently Cronos, Stalin did massacre a huge amount of people, especially after the war where they had a pretty big purge. Many who were taken prisoner by the Germans were executed because the NKVD were afraid they had been corrupted.

    Rather nutty the Russians were. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The army was tired and needed rest, so Hitler let them rest on the outskirts of Dunkirk and let the airforce attack the retreating British forces. He shouldn't have let them rest...resting is for when you've completely destroyed the opposing army...

    it'd be like if you were the marines and the aliens had one hive left, and you're sitting there spawn camping...when suddenly the aliens have managed to escape and throw up a new hive (...and then it kind of doesn't make sense as a comparison anymore....uhhh, the aliens call in 3 ...united states hives....from...another map, and they bomb the marine base....or something).

    It was mostly Hitler's fault...but not entirely (this is one time he shouldn't have taken advice...unlike every single time when he disobeyed his advisors <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )



    No more sidetracking for now...back to the Hitler assassinations and Stalin's purging of his own states. Hitler was bad, Stalin was worse. He'd throw whoever he wanted into his concentration camps (...his own citizens). The police had quotas they had to meet, the police would throw people into the camps, even though the police <b>knew</b> that they were innocent.

    In the camps people would write to Stalin, asking to be released...not realizing he was the reason they were there in the first place.

    He also created propoganda to make himself look better. He abolished all religion (...you know, until he needed it in WW2). And, if you go to the DoD forums, there's an old post in there with references to the number of PoWs and civilians killed by the Germans and the Russians in WW2.

    Assassinating Hitler might not create that big of a rift in history (as someone would take his place, with or without the Jews as a scapegoat)...but if Stalin weren't there, the Russians probably would have had a lot less brutal leader, of course, the non-ruthless people usually don't get to the top in despotism.

    Tyranny doesn't breed saints.
  • CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
    I was reading this other article where many US and allied officals didnt want any of the assassinations on Hitler to suceed.

    They believed that if Hitler was taken out then one of his generals (who would be far better at military stratedgy then Hitler was) would take over and actualy prolong the war.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    I think its best this way, like others said, we should be lucky we got him and not someone more...intelligent, etc..
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    Could have been better, could have been worse. Couldn't have happened any other way than it did.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Could have been better, could have been worse. Couldn't have happened any other way than it did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh there were a million possibilities for what if? What if Hitler had been killed by a truck that hit his car, killing the driver? What if, during a political rally back in the early 1930's a bomb which exploded shortly after Hitler left had instead killed the dictator? (he left early) What if Stalin had decided in 1939 to stab Hitler in the back and push on from Poland? What if aliens had invaded?

    Of course these are all mere fantasy. What happened happened. Extrapolating what could have happened instead though is an excellent way to advance your knowledge of history in my experiance.
  • TequilaTequila Join Date: 2003-08-13 Member: 19660Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Feb 9 2004, 11:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Feb 9 2004, 11:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that was Teen Wolf. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Respect Michael, fool.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On July 20, 1944, Hitler met officials at his so-called Wolf's Lair headquarters in today's Poland, a secluded area in the woods, tightly watched and protected by thousands of mimes<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No wonder Hitler was quite safe; silent but deadly.
  • Nil_IQNil_IQ Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members
    Guys, haven't any of you PLAYED Red Alert? If Hitler was killed before he came to power, the Soviets would obviously become the dominant power, and they would obviously devolop Tesla coils and Tesla tanks but the allies would thwart them with their chronosphere technology, I mean, it makes perfect sense.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Nil_IQ+Feb 10 2004, 09:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ Feb 10 2004, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, haven't any of you PLAYED Red Alert? If Hitler was killed before he came to power, the Soviets would obviously become the dominant power, and they would obviously devolop Tesla coils and Tesla tanks but the allies would thwart them with their chronosphere technology, I mean, it makes perfect sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It didn't need a mention, since everyone knows it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Well, that's my reason for not mentioning it...
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    The thing that Red Alert failed to mention was the Japanese Empire. That would have made a pwnzor 3rd side to the conflict since that said empire would never have fallen (lets presume they were smart enough to leave hawii alone in this case <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    If I was one of those US soldiers who discovered Saddam, I would have said

    "Geez Louise! It's Saddam!" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Interestingly when I asked my Soviet history lecturer about whether the USSR would have invaded Europe if the Nazis hadn't invaded he said no. His belief was that Stalin was more concerned with forming communism in one country and that left alone he would have simply continued purging (given Stalin's nature, eventually all that would be left would be Stalin sitting in a room by himself holding a gun to his head <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) until he could form a "perfect" country. Of course it's impossible to prove.
  • DrSuredeathDrSuredeath Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8217Members
    edited February 2004
    I was taught in my sociology class. Hitler once dreamed that a bomb fall into the hole his troops are sleeping in WWI, killing everyone. Alerted by his vision, he ran away once he woke up. Then the bomb did fall into that hole.

    Together with several escapes (barely) from certain deaths, he never doubted his actions in the war. Never occur to him that God is saying, "What the ****, it was never this hard killing a man." Satan was laughing all his way to the bank.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Feb 10 2004, 06:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 10 2004, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if Stalin had decided in 1939 to stab Hitler in the back and push on from Poland? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'd be a patriot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Feb 10 2004, 06:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 10 2004, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Could have been better, could have been worse. Couldn't have happened any other way than it did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh there were a million possibilities for what if? What if Hitler had been killed by a truck that hit his car, killing the driver? What if, during a political rally back in the early 1930's a bomb which exploded shortly after Hitler left had instead killed the dictator? (he left early) What if Stalin had decided in 1939 to stab Hitler in the back and push on from Poland? What if aliens had invaded?

    Of course these are all mere fantasy. What happened happened. Extrapolating what could have happened instead though is an excellent way to advance your knowledge of history in my experiance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If Russia had continued to attack Poland, the war probably would have only been between Russia and Germany until one of them won. The main British & French vs German stuff happened after the capture of Poland.

    You could conversely go the other way, and say, "What if Germany and Russia had kept their alliance from the attack on Poland?" History gets to be full of those what ifs that are so inherently unpredictable due to human nature, we'd never be able to come to a conclusion.

    What if the Roman Empire never fell? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .


    Again, I must suggest you people try Hearts of Iron <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (...though it only goes through WW2, nothing more really).
  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->His belief was that Stalin was more concerned with forming communism in one country and that left alone he would have simply continued purging <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I wouldn't of been surprised actually. He even undermined attempts to spread communism to other countries by actively arresting and undermining communist agents from other countries.

    He was rather obsessed with this idea that contact with foreigners created funny ideas, and usually had anyone who moved out of the country arrested. Then again, he arrested pretty much anyone who annoyed him.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    edited February 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldn't of been surprised actually. He even undermined attempts to spread communism to other countries by actively arresting and undermining communist agents from other countries.

    He was rather obsessed with this idea that contact with foreigners created funny ideas, and usually had anyone who moved out of the country arrested. Then again, he arrested pretty much anyone who annoyed him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    When I sat back and assessed the whole thing I came to a similar conculsion. However it's worth mentioning that Stalin certainly made the most of his non-aggression pact with Germany by invading the Baltic states and Finland. Might he have gone further? Debateable. Stalin grabbed much of Eastern Europe as a buffer zone against Germany and the problems that developed from holding that region were myriad. I find it hard to believe that Stalin would have wanted to grab lands that never were Russian if the buffer zone was not needed (Hitler defeated by the allies without Russian assisstance for example).

    The question must be how far did Stalin trust Hitler? Even if Hitler hadn't invaded, might Stalin eventually become to paranoid of Hitler to leave him in power? Of course we come back to the problem that sooner or later, Hitler was going to attack Russia; his ideology and political doctrine leaves no room for arguement there.

    EDIT: On this whole subject, eventually I wish to become a university lecturer teaching history. One of the courses I want to offer, and indeed to create, is alternate history, which looks at events like WWII, WWI, The American Civil War, the War of Independance etc and tries to extrapolate what might have happened instead. I believe that being able to do this gives one a greater understanding of why events occured the way they did. I got no idea if any uni would let me teach it but I'd love to do it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • ScyllaScylla Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Feb 10 2004, 12:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Feb 10 2004, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dunkirk [although that's not completely his fault], <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, that was his fault, he told Guderian to slow down because he thought the allies would surrender. That enabled them to escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Theres also another explaination supported by internal memos of converations:

    It seems that Hitler wanted to let them escape and hope he can handle out a peace agreement with Britain by showing this way his "goodwill"

    As german im pretty happy Great Britain dont reacted on peace attempts and continue the war. Otherwise i would live now in a complete different likly much worse germany.

    About telling a different story theres a good book: Robert Harris - Fatherland. The book written as thriller and tell a story about german in the 60' and Hitler won the war. Robert Harris imaginary history starts with 1942 (Heidrich didn't got killed, the German Wehrmacht landed on the British island, Germany got atomic weapons and the rockets needed to send them to the USA).

    I must admit this book told me about the feelings of the people living in the "Third Reich".

    An another thing is: the most remarkable man dont get mentioned often. He tried to kill Hitler alone without help of others. He he got a job at a quarry to get little amount of explosives. After months he got enough and construced a bomb even as he had no knowledge of this stuff. He decided to kill Hitler at the Bürgerbäukeller in Munich as he speak here at an event every year. After he got a flat in Munich he hidded himself in the Bürgerbräukeller every night for a month to dig a hole into a pillar near the speakers desk. Two days before the event he placed the bomb into the hole and actived the time mechanism and traveled to south germany near the swiss border to escape. One hour before he the bomb explodes he got captured and later some things in his pockets lead to the conclusion that he was releated to the explosion.

    Sadly Hitler left the room sooner than planned and escaped while 8 got killed and 60 wounded.

    He got killed at 9. April 1945 in the concentation camp Dachau. Only days before the war is over.

    A stamp of the German Bundespost to render him honors he deserves:
    <img src='http://www.georg-elser.de/umschl_2.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
  • darkflame_666darkflame_666 Join Date: 2003-12-18 Member: 24531Members
    Wasnt there a scene is Desert Fox where this happened <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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