I'll be working toward a final release this week. So, if you have any "real constructive" comments on b18, please let me know soon. Or, you'll just live with whatever is left with the final release. My business is growing and I have several large projects starting now, and so my mapping time is quickly coming to an end.
First off, i don't really like funmaps but this one is for combat, and is looking "ok" (this isnt a row of blocks, like *cough* ns_siege for example) so i went and downloaded it.
I didnt played on it online, servers hosting it were empty at that time, just visited it with a JP and a welder (beta 17)
Hmmkay;
- I found a HOM near the hive, ill put a screenie in attachement (just in case you missed it) - I would prefer to see "normal" PG's instead of those cyclers. Normal PG's can only be used by marines (always weird to see an alien take a phase gate), and they make ambient sound, etc. It's true that they can be destroyed but im pretty sure there is a way to prevent it, with a func_push and no direct sight on the PG or something like that. - I found a peak of 1921 wpoly in MS <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> This lowered my framerate from 60 fps to 35, without any fight going on. This is on a AMD1800+ with 512mo of ram and a GF MX4, at 800*600.
Apart from that and some textures issues (this is only <i>my opinion</i>, but that rock/dirt texture is really ugly on the screenshot below), the map looks like it could be fun to play and i'll give it a try with people when a server fill up. Will give more feedback on gameplay then. Most areas looks simple but good, and that ship is not bad at all (especialy the back of the ship, with the 3 reactors, too bad its almost next to the wall and we can barely see them).
I also like the size of the main "pit", it's really impressing (has some really high r_speeds too, but GJ anyway on making it so big without crashing the editor, compile tools or HL itself)
Goog job, keep working on it, it has potential i think.
Oh and also don't kill me if i sound critic, i'm only trying to help <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, i don't really like funmaps but this one is for combat, and is looking "ok" (this isnt a row of blocks, like *cough* ns_siege for example) so i went and downloaded it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I understand that. I've been really after having a "fun" map to play, which still offered "serious" battles between teams. So far, it's been a challenge, which seems to be paying off as I have several regulars on my playtest server now that play nothing all day except my map on my server (even I can't manage to do that much gameplaying).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I found a HOM near the hive, ill put a screenie in attachement (just in case you missed it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I noticed this too, that's why I fixed it for b18. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I would prefer to see "normal" PG's instead of those cyclers. Normal PG's can only be used by marines (always weird to see an alien take a phase gate), and they make ambient sound, etc. It's true that they can be destroyed but im pretty sure there is a way to prevent it, with a func_push and no direct sight on the PG or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We had normal PGs in a couple of the betas, but since I can't dictate the health of a PG and the marines have no idea when a PG is under attack unless a marine is defending it, it was best to change them to how they are now. Also, with the way they are now, I'm able to control which PG links to which other one (not in a series) and they're more like one-way portals too. Trust me, if I had more flexibility and options with getting a standard PG to work, I would have kept them. But, after many games with them, the change to teleports have made things a lot better. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I found a peak of 1921 wpoly in MS <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> This lowered my framerate from 60 fps to 35, without any fight going on. This is on a AMD1800+ with 512mo of ram and a GF MX4, at 800*600.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've already spent a lot of time providing VIS blocks, scaling textures and such in order to reduce r_speeds. This is just one of those inherant things that seem to come with having large rooms. Also, the more detail I add to a large room, increases it a little as well. I may or may not be able to do much more with this, but I'll give it another look before I release the final. Thanks for the specs though. I do have a friend that periodically tests with his 4mb video card and that's been a good gauge into what is playable or not. Besides, you'll notice that a drop in FPS in some areas isn't going to kill the gameplay as much as a lagging connection. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Apart from that and some textures issues (this is only <i>my opinion</i>, but that rock/dirt texture is really ugly on the screenshot below)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only thing that I can think of that you may not like on it, is that it's scaled larger than what it should be. But, this is due to resource restrictions in the HL1 engine. So, unless you have a texture replacement recommendation, not a lot I can do here. Besides, you don't really spend a lot of time looking at walls and dirt in this game. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the map looks like it could be fun to play and i'll give it a try with people when a server fill up. Will give more feedback on gameplay then. Most areas looks simple but good, and that ship is not bad at all (especialy the back of the ship, with the 3 reactors, too bad its almost next to the wall and we can barely see them).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting... so you'd like for me to move that back wall away from the engines more? Keep in mind, if I do that, it may increase r_speeds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also like the size of the main "pit", it's really impressing (has some really high r_speeds too, but GJ anyway on making it so big without crashing the editor, compile tools or HL itself)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks! Yeah, the map is quite stable and I haven't seen it crash the server once. The only crashes I've seen so far, has been NS's bug where sometimes at the end of the round when it should restart the map, it crashes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Goog job, keep working on it, it has potential i think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, but I need to bring this map to a close soon as my schedule is not going to allow for further updates soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and also don't kill me if i sound critic, i'm only trying to help <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary, you have offered some great constructive feedback that is not laced with immature and rude remarks or anything that resembles a "flame". Thanks!
HoundDawg u P0wns u powens u powns u P-Owns so much i cant type
U p0wns and u map =) 0WnZ..I hate yuo..I 'm joking!
U p0wns! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> get to work and build more betas for meh.! all people and we can play together the map until we are 70..o.. Um POWNS!!!!!! im yuor fan!!
Please let me know if you can think of anything further. I've noticed that there are typically 4-6 servers running b18 at a time, with more than that having it in rotation. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-HoundDawg+Mar 4 2004, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HoundDawg @ Mar 4 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-snarky+Feb 29 2004, 12:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (snarky @ Feb 29 2004, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think the newest version is horrible, and a completely wrong turn from b3.
The following are constructive in purpose ONLY:
i really liked the marine start in b3, and the map in general looked fresh and playable. THe new look and pointless additions leave me in disbelief. The metal/gray rock textures went well together, and you swap it for passe` default half-life dirt textures? Yuck. The wind tunnel is useless, the spaceship serves NO purpose other than to look crappy (how the hell does that thing fly, its a giant cement block) and hurt players with those red bars. Take those out too. Marine start was a lot more functional and believable in b3, and I don't know what caused you to change it. I like the addition of weldable points, but phase gates do NOT work in a map like this, and weldables should only serve to open up new ambush paths. THe wind tunnel is fun at first, but grows tiring fast. The hive is really dumb, skulks are impossible to see with the texturing, and the hive texturing stands out as a beacon of hope, a fresh change from an eyesore of a map, which voids its purpose as an ugly festering alien building. It looks like you attempted a more "realistic" hive environment. I urge you to remove this concept, and work towards a more functional one, in which the hive is positioned in the middle with a intelligible network of ramps and corners allow the marines a positioning advantage. Give the elevator a roof, with one open panel in the roof, so that the aliens cant come raining down. Let the marines aim at SOMETHING, giving them atleast a marginal chance. There really dont seem to be any strategic choke points on this map, where huge conflics are waged, besides the marine start which will continue until the cc is destroyed (which happens about 99% of the time). Keep in mind that the lerk is the prime enemy in this map, and install some rooms or vents where the lerk isnt at a complete advantage. Again: RETEXTURE!! God, these look like my 6th grade maps before i knew the texture panel existed. The marines should always have the advantage at the start of the map, and this map simply doesnt allow. Early game, alien team rushes should be used - this is what kept early ninjafall maps fresh. And get rid of the curving tunnel into ms, shortening the visible distance between aliens and marines confrontation is another unneeded alien advantage.
i honestly suggest a fresh start.
sincerely, SNarkY! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, thanks for the feedback, unfortunately, what you may have started out as "constructive" seemed to turn into a lot of flaming.
1) The original Marine start was heavily camped by aliens. There really wasn't a whole lot marines could do there. It was hard to get in and out of the base quickly, and once the glass was broken, it was pretty much an alien spam fest.
2) Your whining about textures is totally uncalled for, except for the one I used on the ship. As others have pointed out, this was still a beta, so there wasn't a lot of texturing on the ship yet (it has sense been re-textured in recent releases). The specific textures you whined about, were from the ns2.wad. The map still has many of the same "metal/rock" textures you seemed to have enjoyed in the early versions. So, basically, I'm just going to ignore your texture rantings as they are mostly lame and non-constructive at all.
3) The Wind Tunnels serve a lot of purpose and many, many players love them. There have been many great battles in there. Your "useless" comment only tells me that you haven't played the map much.
4) The ship itself doesn't look "crappy" and it's clear (if you ever took the time to really look at it) that it has 3 huge engines in the back. Secondly, it's not meant to fly around the map, it's docked there in that bay. Third, let's see you create a better ship along with everything else that I have going on in this huge map, with all of the HL1 engine restrictions. I've basically created something that works for a unique and creative marine start. If you don't like it, don't play it. (yet more un-constructive feedback)
5) You may not think that the phase gates work on this map, but they're very important in helping the game move along quickly. In fact, most official co_ maps are nothing but marine turtle-till-lvl10 maps. Then, they go attack. Aliens build up and the game is pretty much pointless with everyone at lvl10 and no victor. The PGs added to co_freefall help prevent the game from lasting an hour or more. In fact, once that 2nd PG is available, there is a sudden rush added to the game where both teams struggle to end the game quickly.
6) *sigh* Even more un-constructive comments regarding the hive area, except for the texturing. I've since redone the texturing in there as I had feedback from several other regular playtesters. But, your comments like "beacon of hope", "hive area is really dumb", "eyesore of a map", along with the many others you've made so far, make me ponder how and why you're even a "veteran", unless you're a NS official purist that can't stand a little creativity and breaking out of the mapping box.
7) All of your other comments don't really help either and only shows that you really haven't played the map much. Also, several of your other comments don't really show me that you're that much of a mapper either.
So, anyway, just move on and ignore this map entirely. It seems that you'll be more happy with the traditional "rooms" with "halls" types. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> okay, first of all HoundDawg, i'd like to point out that freefall is my favorite co_ map. Secondly, as you seem to have missed this entirely, I was playing devil's advocate on you to try and rethink some of the design changes from earlier beta's, that I thought needed some tweaking. With that in mind, your comments about me and my opinions were well un-deserved and purely trashy in context.
Moving on to responses:
Comment 1: I think breaking the glass should be an objective for aliens to win, allowing them direct access to the base. An alien "spam fest" is what should occur, much like what happens when marines open weldables, etc. Apparently you believe this philosphy as well, since you refuse to remove it. Kudos. Regardless, by pointing out how great the original marine start was, I was motioning towards the realism of it. Coming out of a marine base with aliens raining down is a lot more believable (a lot coming from the half-life engine), for me, than the spaceship. I'll talk about why later.
2. Your comment about my "whining" about textures was, again, proof that you jumped to personal hostile conclusions and missed my point entirely. The new textures make it very hard to see aliens, and in a map where aliens are the agressive force throughout most of the map, this is an unwelcome aggrivation. The textures are ANNOYING and detract from the gameplay. They do look more realistic, I suppose, but they detract from the experience. Ignore my hypocricy.
3. Did it ever occur to you that maybe once I enjoyed the wind tunnels? ANd maybe I went in them SOOO much, that I realized how fundamentally flawed they were? Perhaps, it is not I who have played so little.
4. By pointing out that the ship can't FLY, I was referring to the fact that it is a giant cement block. Of course I noticed the 3 engines, they are a good start and a welcome hiding place for any low-hp skulk. I agree you made a good ship for the hl1 engine, but is that really a good thing? A base is more believable, potentially more functionable, and lower poly. You obviously aren't going to change your mind, i'm just backing up my greatly misinterpreted criticisms.
5. If you believe they serve their purpose, go with it. You do have an edge on me here.
6. I can't stand a little creativity? A little breaking out of the mapping box? ARE YOU KIDDING. I cannot believe you would use such descriptions for the hive area. It look's like you stole the hive area from some xen cave. Dark, hard to see walls with water (which is annoying as a marine, rather than an environmental 'realism' addition). With a little 'creativity' you could distinguish this map's texture pallete from a single texture reminiscent of half-life single player cliffs and dirt. And somehow you link my taste in asthetics with my position as a veteran? I don't even need to respond to such a tasteless, tactless and taut personal jab.
7. Yes, i'm a mapper. I love a good map, and [irltbh]... room and hall maps make me puke.
And last but not least:
REMEMBER, I'M PLAYING D'S ADVOCATE. <3
<3
<3
I REALLY love your map HoundDawg, and my criticisms should be taken seriously. As a mapper, i find it seriously inconsiderate that you turtle in at such constructive criticism... take pride in your work, but be flexible. anybody that releases something to the public should expect criticism and take it head on with a positive attitude. thats just the way things are. If my words were purely malicious in intent, I would have responded the same way you did. But they aren't, and I left a few more clues to point that out this time.
Great work on the map, I can't wait to see how it finishes. I'll see you on the server! <3
<!--QuoteBegin-snarky+Mar 9 2004, 09:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (snarky @ Mar 9 2004, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> okay, first of all HoundDawg, i'd like to point out that freefall is my favorite co_ map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> :o Snarky, I was a surprised to read this. And after reading your latest reply, there's a strong difference between both posts. Even though I did make a few immediate changes due to that last post, your approach was really wrong. I'll explain in a minute. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, as you seem to have missed this entirely, I was playing devil's advocate on you to try and rethink some of the design changes from earlier beta's, that I thought needed some tweaking. With that in mind, your comments about me and my opinions were well un-deserved and purely trashy in context. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't mind someone playing devil's advocate, but you really didn't make that clear and all I read were flame comments like these: <ul> </li><li>"The new look and <b>pointless additions</b> leave me in <b>disbelief</b>." </li><li>"wind tunnel is <b>useless</b>" </li><li>"the spaceship serves NO purpose other than to <b>look crappy</b>" </li><li>"The hive is <b>really dumb</b>" </li><li>"the hive texturing stands out as a beacon of hope, a fresh change from an <b>eyesore of a map</b>, which <b>voids its purpose</b> as an <b>ugly</b> festering alien building." </li><li>"RETEXTURE!! God, these <b>look like my 6th grade maps</b> before i knew the texture panel existed." </li><li>"i honestly suggest a fresh start." </li></ul> Don't you see the excessive negatives you had throughout that huge paragraph? Even after I re-read that, I'm amazed that such a crappy map is your favorite co_ map. I mean, you literally told me to scrap the current version and start from scratch.
Also, you hardly offered any alternative examples, especially with the texturing, which you still don't tell me what textures you had in mind. Keep in mind, that the alien hive resides within a rock cavern. I guess that I could have a small marine base at the top that joins everything together to the bottom, but I was looking for something more unique. The rib cage *does* help protect the hive from marine attacks.
Ok, now for your more recent comments: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Regardless, by pointing out how great the original marine start was, I was motioning towards the realism of it. Coming out of a marine base with aliens raining down is a lot more believable...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The original marine start became nothing but a "roach motel" for marines. It took them forever to get out of the base. And when they did, they were ambushed at side exit door, very easily. And even with the glass unbroken, aliens could effortlessly spawn camp it. Once the glass was broken on the sides and especially the top, it was pretty much game over for marines as it offered too large of an advantage to aliens.
I also fail to see how you think it was more "believable" for aliens to rain down on a base than it is for them breaking into a landing bay and falling on a docked ship. They're both conceptually the same, but the landing bay scenario provides more ambience than the older base one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your comment about my "whining" about textures was, again, proof that you jumped to personal hostile conclusions and missed my point entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, having a theme throughout your post about poor texturing with no reason provided other than "passe` default half-life dirt textures? Yuck." simply becomes nothing more than noise. You even called it "default half-life", which if you look in the NS2.WAD, you'll find the 2 that I use in there. I used them, because they looked really good. They also provided a good contrast against the older rock texture that I use for the middle bridge area. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The new textures make it very hard to see aliens, and in a map where aliens are the agressive force throughout most of the map, this is an unwelcome aggrivation. The textures are ANNOYING and detract from the gameplay. They do look more realistic, I suppose, but they detract from the experience. Ignore my hypocricy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, you finally explain yourself better, but still don't provide me with an alternative solution. O.o <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Did it ever occur to you that maybe once I enjoyed the wind tunnels? ANd maybe I went in them SOOO much, that I realized how fundamentally flawed they were? Perhaps, it is not I who have played so little.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do use them and I also see how many players enjoy battling in there. That weldable fan tunnel provides the Marines with a quick path to the hive area until PG2 opens up. But, it's met with a lot of alien resistance. If you don't like it, don't go there then. Also, you're starting to use words like "fundamentally flawed" without explaining why you think that. So, again, I'm left with a complaint without anything to go by in order to fix it, other than just removing it all together, which will just **** off many other players. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By pointing out that the ship can't FLY, I was referring to the fact that it is a giant cement block. Of course I noticed the 3 engines, they are a good start and a welcome hiding place for any low-hp skulk. I agree you made a good ship for the hl1 engine, but is that really a good thing? A base is more believable, potentially more functionable, and lower poly. You obviously aren't going to change your mind, i'm just backing up my greatly misinterpreted criticisms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I knew about the "cement" texturing. If you noticed, I immediately focused a lot of attention on re-texturing and the interior lighting of the ship. You seem to be focused on the ship and still fail to realize that it's not just a ship there, it's a landing bay. In fact, I even put a huge force field looking out into space to help drive this point.
I still fail to see how a base is any more believable than this landing bay. Also, the ship adds yet another unique aspect to the map, which many players really love. How many other NS_ and CO_ maps offer a ship to play in and out of? The only other one I know, is the stargate maps. But, that ship is hardly ever used. Anyway, the new marine start concept does offer the marines with more of a defence and realism to their purpose and the reason their there.
Besides, my time for mapping is running out quickly as I have business projects in RL that about to take off and will absorb my time. So, I can't go around making major changes to the map anymore. You're more than welcome to design and make your own "freefall" concept map. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't stand a little creativity? A little breaking out of the mapping box? ARE YOU KIDDING. I cannot believe you would use such descriptions for the hive area. It look's like you stole the hive area from some xen cave. Dark, hard to see walls with water (which is annoying as a marine, rather than an environmental 'realism' addition). With a little 'creativity' you could distinguish this map's texture pallete from a single texture reminiscent of half-life single player cliffs and dirt. And somehow you link my taste in asthetics with my position as a veteran? I don't even need to respond to such a tasteless, tactless and taut personal jab.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this whole paragraph is the result of comments based on your original "flaming and whining" post, which I already covered above. FYI, the hive area isn't from "xen" or even meant to be. I do have many ideas for a hive area, which I wish I could do, but the damn limits on the HL1 engine prevent me from doing anything remotely complex unless I remove a section from the map, and I can't really pick out one. So, I'm left with something simple. You have to also realize, the hive isn't in a marine area like nearly all of the other NS_ and CO_ maps out there.
*sigh* Again, you mention texturing without providing an alternative texture to use. FYI, the dirty water was added to the hive area to serve as a warning to aliens that a marine has entered the chamber. How? Well, I can be at the drop hole and hear a marine moving through the water fairly easily. Also, for some reason, the water seems to have an affect on JP marines. It almost makes them "stick" a little, which I've found odd but a bonus for aliens.
Anyway, I'm sitting at over 90% on clipnodes use and close that on max patches. With that, I usually start having areas of the map where you can stand and see through walls and other objects. Pretty much a VIS thing. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, i'm a mapper. I love a good map, and [irltbh]... room and hall maps make me puke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looks like we're on the same page here. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I REALLY love your map HoundDawg, and my criticisms should be taken seriously. As a mapper, i find it seriously inconsiderate that you turtle in at such constructive criticism... take pride in your work, but be flexible. anybody that releases something to the public should expect criticism and take it head on with a positive attitude. thats just the way things are. If my words were purely malicious in intent, I would have responded the same way you did. But they aren't, and I left a few more clues to point that out this time.
Great work on the map, I can't wait to see how it finishes. I'll see you on the server! <3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if you compare both posts, you can easily tell the difference between "flame and whine" and "constructive criticisms". I really like the feedback you gave on this last one, I'd really appreciate it if you could expand a little in some areas so I have a better idea of what I can do (without scrapping the map).
The overall tone from your first post was, "this map is ****, scrap it and start over you noob mapper". Where, in this post it's more, "as a devil's advocate, these are areas I don't like... but, as a player, I really love your map, keep up the great job!" Do you see the difference here?
Anyway, thanks for the feedback and I now look forward to your reply.
When will beta 19 come out? yummi yummi... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 10 2004, 07:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 10 2004, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to let you know freefall is incredibly unbalanced for marines to win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like another map we all know from 1.04 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (If you played NS back then)
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 10 2004, 06:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 10 2004, 06:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to let you know freefall is incredibly unbalanced for marines to win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't say "incredibly". But, I do realize that non-experienced/lesser-skilled marines will most likely lose. So, I have been working on b19 today and there have been numerous changes that should help them out quite a bit. Aliens will need to become more aggressive. Which means, they need realize that their goal is the CC, not spawn/marine camping.
b19 should be out this afternoon.... maybe as early as within the hour. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, after a lot of good feedback and the need to re-balance the gameplay so marines have more of a chance, I give you beta 19: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 19 - Added More Clip Areas on Hive Rib Spine - Re-Textured Hive Area Walls - Changed Hive Area Terrain (more flat areas for evolving) - Added Large Rock Columns in Hive Area - Dimmed Hive Area Lighting a Tad - Removed Lower Fan Tunnel - Widened Elevator Shaft (eliminates getting stuck at bottom) - Changed Ship Doors to Open/Close (buttons require a marine near the button) - Moved 2 Marine Spawns out of Ship - Changed PG 1 Activation from 10min to 8min - Changed PG 2 Activation from 30min to 22min - Added Another PG 1 from Docking Bay to Middle Bridge - Added a Ladder to Tallest Cargo Stack - Added Small Boxes Near Small Cargo Corners - Phasegates Now Only Function when Marine Over Them - Ship Laser Rods are Now Transparent with Slight Pulse - Base Turrets Turn in Random Intervals - Made Fan Vent Water More Shallow <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> psst. honddawg something 1 scares me..I thinked to say to you to create some buttons "Changed Ship Doors to Open/Close (buttons require a marine near the button)"..And wipps! you are smarter then i. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Hopes beta 20-the 20 centuri Fox comes out. Beta 19 was fun to play! great work
I found a bug. press the door open button twice. the door will lock in the position permanently (or until round restart)
speaking of map restart, any reason why the official freefall server restarts the map all the time? can't it just restart the round like those 24/7 dust servers that we've all played on a time or two...
<edit> have you considered moving the spawns back into the ship? I always get my **** bitten off by a skulk hiding behind a box... </edit>
<!--QuoteBegin-Bob_the_Cannibal+Mar 11 2004, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bob_the_Cannibal @ Mar 11 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I found a bug. press the door open button twice. the door will lock in the position permanently (or until round restart) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I noticed that too. But, I don't have a solution right off for it yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->speaking of map restart, any reason why the official freefall server restarts the map all the time? can't it just restart the round like those 24/7 dust servers that we've all played on a time or two...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, from what I can tell, NS doesn't reset all of the triggers and other entities at round start/end properly. I haven't found a tutorial or any other information that fixes this condition. When I was in #nsmapping, I had asked the question, but nobody had a solution. In fact, other mappers had the same problem.
The only workaround is to have the server re-load the map for every round. If you don't, you'll notice how the rotating doors inside of the ship no longer function. So, basically, I've got it down to NS not resetting func_door_rotating. I know it does it fine for standard func_door though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><edit> have you considered moving the spawns back into the ship? I always get my **** bitten off by a skulk hiding behind a box... </edit><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The verdict is still out on this one. I've seen marines manage better with outside spawns with this version than the last one. But, for the next release I'm thinking about these possibilities:
1) Just move a few more spawns into the ship. 2) Cluster more external spawns together. 3) Spread external spawns out more. 4) Create a seperate spawning room with a door that only marines can open from the inside.
I hate one thing in this map, the bones in the alien hive. Once aliens get gorge with webs, its hell there. Without Webs:JP gets stuck on the Bones, cant move off(happened many times), they limit movement of the JP to much(point of JP is to STAY off ground, not get there because ya hit bones, even the HA is more useful in this map), Hive access areas are to narrow, easy lerks and skulks and fades camp for jpers.
Beta 20 Released: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 20 - Completely New and Expanded Hive Area - New Freefall Tunnel from Hive Down to Marine Area - Moved 2 Marine Spawns Back Inside Ship - Changed PG 1 Activation from 8min to 5min - Changed PG 2 Activation from 22min to 15min - Moved PG 2 Exit to New Location - Disabled Random Base Turret Turning (reducing lag) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
clumping spawns doesn't work, you still spawn in 2 at a time, or, in small situations, 1 at a time. NS has a bug, I think. spawn selection is not random. it seems to prefer that forward left corner (ship relative). move that (those) spawn(s) into the ship. it's not pretty to get bitten by a skulk after 1 ns of spawn.
all fans have stopped rotating, including the 'wind tunnel' as people have taken to calling it.
edits: oh, please clipbrush the 2 columns in the 'main' freefall chamber, to allow the skulks to climb to the rings, and clip the bottom of the newest drop chamber with 45 degree invisible brushes at the bottom concrete 'plug' to allow the skulks to climb back up. (also at the top of the new fan room) or, change it from a box to a T shape (I'll map you what I mean) and attach
It appears that the pulse effects on the force field was causing the lag... so, with less effect, and a LOT less lag, I give you beta 21: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 21 - Lowered Hive Ceiling Near Hive (anti-JP) - Changed Lighting in Hive Area (dividing into 3 sections) - Changed PG 2 Top Door to Force Field (deactivate by welding on hive side) - Removed Pulse from Force Fields (less lag) - Decreased Size of Breakable Bay Wall in Water Cavern - Increased Water Depth in Water Cavern - Rounded Walls in Water Cavern - Darkened Middle Bridge Lighting a Tad <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you always adding the minimaps in the zip? Co maps don't use minimaps... and saves you time, buildminimap can take quite a while. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's in the guidelines to. I believe it's for HLTV and spectators. It really doesn't work well for top-down maps like this one, but at least there is one.
<!--QuoteBegin-{DEAD}scott+Mar 14 2004, 07:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({DEAD}scott @ Mar 14 2004, 07:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Use a trigger_random targeting trigger_relays, use the trigger_relays to reset your entitys at round restart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the problem is mainly in the func_door_rotating. I have 2 doors like that, which open up at different times via trigger_random. A map round could end before one or both of the doors are triggered. So, to do what you suggest, would only cause the doors to open pre-maturely for the next round. Or, vice-versa.
Flayra has to fix it in his coding. If mappers are to run around in circles trying to work something out to get around the bug, then once he does fix it, the maps could break for that version.
Thanks for the feedback Bob... I'll add more clipped regions before final. This last version, I was purely focused on removing whatever was causing the increased lag and to reduce the JP pwning at the hive. Both of which are addressed in b21, and more too.
Many different small changes here and there in this beta 22 release: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 22 - Reduced Radiation Damage in New Freefall Tube - Removed Top Grate Above Glass Tube - Decreased Breakable Wall Strength from 3k to 1k - Reversed Landing Bay Fan Direction - Lowered Water Cavern (now even deeper) - Decreased PG 2 Welding from 60 seconds to 30 seconds - Added Another PG (back to ship) in PG 2 Hive Level Tunnel (for when unwelded) - Raised Hive a Tad (less JP friendly) - Added Hive Sound - Increased Wind Sound at Top of Primary Freefall Hole - Decreased Breakable Primary Hole Strength from 3k to 1k - Added Clip from Wing to Top Ship - Lowered Ship Ladders a Tad (easier to reach and use) - Lowered CC Floor Down 2 Steps (more Onos friendly) - Added a Grate Over Ship Engine Pipes - Moved First Marine Spawn into Ship - Moved External Marine Spawns on Top of Nearby Crates - Added 2 Crates Near External PG 1 Room - Increased Fan Speed in Large Fan Vent <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Aka'lamanaia+Mar 17 2004, 09:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aka'lamanaia @ Mar 17 2004, 09:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it seems ya hate JP and try limit them as much ya can around the hive area...making JP worhtless unless your camping the ship. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. I still see JP marines navigating pretty good through there and attacking the hive. Sure, it's not as easy as before, but at least it's more fair and balanced.
In fact, b22 is pretty balanced. Both aliens and marines have equal opportunity now. On my server, there have been many games where they've been close with one team winning in only seconds from losing.
Comments
First off, i don't really like funmaps but this one is for combat, and is looking "ok" (this isnt a row of blocks, like *cough* ns_siege for example) so i went and downloaded it.
I didnt played on it online, servers hosting it were empty at that time, just visited it with a JP and a welder (beta 17)
Hmmkay;
- I found a HOM near the hive, ill put a screenie in attachement (just in case you missed it)
- I would prefer to see "normal" PG's instead of those cyclers. Normal PG's can only be used by marines (always weird to see an alien take a phase gate), and they make ambient sound, etc. It's true that they can be destroyed but im pretty sure there is a way to prevent it, with a func_push and no direct sight on the PG or something like that.
- I found a peak of 1921 wpoly in MS <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> This lowered my framerate from 60 fps to 35, without any fight going on. This is on a AMD1800+ with 512mo of ram and a GF MX4, at 800*600.
Apart from that and some textures issues (this is only <i>my opinion</i>, but that rock/dirt texture is really ugly on the screenshot below), the map looks like it could be fun to play and i'll give it a try with people when a server fill up. Will give more feedback on gameplay then. Most areas looks simple but good, and that ship is not bad at all (especialy the back of the ship, with the 3 reactors, too bad its almost next to the wall and we can barely see them).
I also like the size of the main "pit", it's really impressing (has some really high r_speeds too, but GJ anyway on making it so big without crashing the editor, compile tools or HL itself)
Goog job, keep working on it, it has potential i think.
Oh and also don't kill me if i sound critic, i'm only trying to help <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, I understand that. I've been really after having a "fun" map to play, which still offered "serious" battles between teams. So far, it's been a challenge, which seems to be paying off as I have several regulars on my playtest server now that play nothing all day except my map on my server (even I can't manage to do that much gameplaying).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I found a HOM near the hive, ill put a screenie in attachement (just in case you missed it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed this too, that's why I fixed it for b18.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I would prefer to see "normal" PG's instead of those cyclers. Normal PG's can only be used by marines (always weird to see an alien take a phase gate), and they make ambient sound, etc. It's true that they can be destroyed but im pretty sure there is a way to prevent it, with a func_push and no direct sight on the PG or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had normal PGs in a couple of the betas, but since I can't dictate the health of a PG and the marines have no idea when a PG is under attack unless a marine is defending it, it was best to change them to how they are now. Also, with the way they are now, I'm able to control which PG links to which other one (not in a series) and they're more like one-way portals too. Trust me, if I had more flexibility and options with getting a standard PG to work, I would have kept them. But, after many games with them, the change to teleports have made things a lot better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I found a peak of 1921 wpoly in MS <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> This lowered my framerate from 60 fps to 35, without any fight going on. This is on a AMD1800+ with 512mo of ram and a GF MX4, at 800*600.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already spent a lot of time providing VIS blocks, scaling textures and such in order to reduce r_speeds. This is just one of those inherant things that seem to come with having large rooms. Also, the more detail I add to a large room, increases it a little as well. I may or may not be able to do much more with this, but I'll give it another look before I release the final. Thanks for the specs though. I do have a friend that periodically tests with his 4mb video card and that's been a good gauge into what is playable or not. Besides, you'll notice that a drop in FPS in some areas isn't going to kill the gameplay as much as a lagging connection.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Apart from that and some textures issues (this is only <i>my opinion</i>, but that rock/dirt texture is really ugly on the screenshot below)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing that I can think of that you may not like on it, is that it's scaled larger than what it should be. But, this is due to resource restrictions in the HL1 engine. So, unless you have a texture replacement recommendation, not a lot I can do here. Besides, you don't really spend a lot of time looking at walls and dirt in this game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the map looks like it could be fun to play and i'll give it a try with people when a server fill up. Will give more feedback on gameplay then. Most areas looks simple but good, and that ship is not bad at all (especialy the back of the ship, with the 3 reactors, too bad its almost next to the wall and we can barely see them).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting... so you'd like for me to move that back wall away from the engines more? Keep in mind, if I do that, it may increase r_speeds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also like the size of the main "pit", it's really impressing (has some really high r_speeds too, but GJ anyway on making it so big without crashing the editor, compile tools or HL itself)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks! Yeah, the map is quite stable and I haven't seen it crash the server once. The only crashes I've seen so far, has been NS's bug where sometimes at the end of the round when it should restart the map, it crashes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Goog job, keep working on it, it has potential i think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, but I need to bring this map to a close soon as my schedule is not going to allow for further updates soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and also don't kill me if i sound critic, i'm only trying to help <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary, you have offered some great constructive feedback that is not laced with immature and rude remarks or anything that resembles a "flame". Thanks!
U p0wns and u map =) 0WnZ..I hate yuo..I 'm joking!
U p0wns! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> get to work and build more betas for meh.! all people and we can play together the map until we are 70..o.. Um POWNS!!!!!! im yuor fan!!
<a href='http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?p=110432#post110432' target='_blank'>http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?p=110432#post110432</a>
Please let me know if you can think of anything further. I've noticed that there are typically 4-6 servers running b18 at a time, with more than that having it in rotation. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The following are constructive in purpose ONLY:
i really liked the marine start in b3, and the map in general looked fresh and playable. THe new look and pointless additions leave me in disbelief. The metal/gray rock textures went well together, and you swap it for passe` default half-life dirt textures? Yuck. The wind tunnel is useless, the spaceship serves NO purpose other than to look crappy (how the hell does that thing fly, its a giant cement block) and hurt players with those red bars. Take those out too. Marine start was a lot more functional and believable in b3, and I don't know what caused you to change it. I like the addition of weldable points, but phase gates do NOT work in a map like this, and weldables should only serve to open up new ambush paths. THe wind tunnel is fun at first, but grows tiring fast. The hive is really dumb, skulks are impossible to see with the texturing, and the hive texturing stands out as a beacon of hope, a fresh change from an eyesore of a map, which voids its purpose as an ugly festering alien building. It looks like you attempted a more "realistic" hive environment. I urge you to remove this concept, and work towards a more functional one, in which the hive is positioned in the middle with a intelligible network of ramps and corners allow the marines a positioning advantage. Give the elevator a roof, with one open panel in the roof, so that the aliens cant come raining down. Let the marines aim at SOMETHING, giving them atleast a marginal chance. There really dont seem to be any strategic choke points on this map, where huge conflics are waged, besides the marine start which will continue until the cc is destroyed (which happens about 99% of the time). Keep in mind that the lerk is the prime enemy in this map, and install some rooms or vents where the lerk isnt at a complete advantage. Again: RETEXTURE!! God, these look like my 6th grade maps before i knew the texture panel existed. The marines should always have the advantage at the start of the map, and this map simply doesnt allow. Early game, alien team rushes should be used - this is what kept early ninjafall maps fresh. And get rid of the curving tunnel into ms, shortening the visible distance between aliens and marines confrontation is another unneeded alien advantage.
i honestly suggest a fresh start.
sincerely,
SNarkY! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, thanks for the feedback, unfortunately, what you may have started out as "constructive" seemed to turn into a lot of flaming.
1) The original Marine start was heavily camped by aliens. There really wasn't a whole lot marines could do there. It was hard to get in and out of the base quickly, and once the glass was broken, it was pretty much an alien spam fest.
2) Your whining about textures is totally uncalled for, except for the one I used on the ship. As others have pointed out, this was still a beta, so there wasn't a lot of texturing on the ship yet (it has sense been re-textured in recent releases). The specific textures you whined about, were from the ns2.wad. The map still has many of the same "metal/rock" textures you seemed to have enjoyed in the early versions. So, basically, I'm just going to ignore your texture rantings as they are mostly lame and non-constructive at all.
3) The Wind Tunnels serve a lot of purpose and many, many players love them. There have been many great battles in there. Your "useless" comment only tells me that you haven't played the map much.
4) The ship itself doesn't look "crappy" and it's clear (if you ever took the time to really look at it) that it has 3 huge engines in the back. Secondly, it's not meant to fly around the map, it's docked there in that bay. Third, let's see you create a better ship along with everything else that I have going on in this huge map, with all of the HL1 engine restrictions. I've basically created something that works for a unique and creative marine start. If you don't like it, don't play it. (yet more un-constructive feedback)
5) You may not think that the phase gates work on this map, but they're very important in helping the game move along quickly. In fact, most official co_ maps are nothing but marine turtle-till-lvl10 maps. Then, they go attack. Aliens build up and the game is pretty much pointless with everyone at lvl10 and no victor. The PGs added to co_freefall help prevent the game from lasting an hour or more. In fact, once that 2nd PG is available, there is a sudden rush added to the game where both teams struggle to end the game quickly.
6) *sigh* Even more un-constructive comments regarding the hive area, except for the texturing. I've since redone the texturing in there as I had feedback from several other regular playtesters. But, your comments like "beacon of hope", "hive area is really dumb", "eyesore of a map", along with the many others you've made so far, make me ponder how and why you're even a "veteran", unless you're a NS official purist that can't stand a little creativity and breaking out of the mapping box.
7) All of your other comments don't really help either and only shows that you really haven't played the map much. Also, several of your other comments don't really show me that you're that much of a mapper either.
So, anyway, just move on and ignore this map entirely. It seems that you'll be more happy with the traditional "rooms" with "halls" types. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay, first of all HoundDawg, i'd like to point out that freefall is my favorite co_ map. Secondly, as you seem to have missed this entirely, I was playing devil's advocate on you to try and rethink some of the design changes from earlier beta's, that I thought needed some tweaking. With that in mind, your comments about me and my opinions were well un-deserved and purely trashy in context.
Moving on to responses:
Comment 1: I think breaking the glass should be an objective for aliens to win, allowing them direct access to the base. An alien "spam fest" is what should occur, much like what happens when marines open weldables, etc. Apparently you believe this philosphy as well, since you refuse to remove it. Kudos. Regardless, by pointing out how great the original marine start was, I was motioning towards the realism of it. Coming out of a marine base with aliens raining down is a lot more believable (a lot coming from the half-life engine), for me, than the spaceship. I'll talk about why later.
2. Your comment about my "whining" about textures was, again, proof that you jumped to personal hostile conclusions and missed my point entirely. The new textures make it very hard to see aliens, and in a map where aliens are the agressive force throughout most of the map, this is an unwelcome aggrivation. The textures are ANNOYING and detract from the gameplay. They do look more realistic, I suppose, but they detract from the experience. Ignore my hypocricy.
3. Did it ever occur to you that maybe once I enjoyed the wind tunnels? ANd maybe I went in them SOOO much, that I realized how fundamentally flawed they were? Perhaps, it is not I who have played so little.
4. By pointing out that the ship can't FLY, I was referring to the fact that it is a giant cement block. Of course I noticed the 3 engines, they are a good start and a welcome hiding place for any low-hp skulk. I agree you made a good ship for the hl1 engine, but is that really a good thing? A base is more believable, potentially more functionable, and lower poly. You obviously aren't going to change your mind, i'm just backing up my greatly misinterpreted criticisms.
5. If you believe they serve their purpose, go with it. You do have an edge on me here.
6. I can't stand a little creativity? A little breaking out of the mapping box? ARE YOU KIDDING. I cannot believe you would use such descriptions for the hive area. It look's like you stole the hive area from some xen cave. Dark, hard to see walls with water (which is annoying as a marine, rather than an environmental 'realism' addition). With a little 'creativity' you could distinguish this map's texture pallete from a single texture reminiscent of half-life single player cliffs and dirt. And somehow you link my taste in asthetics with my position as a veteran? I don't even need to respond to such a tasteless, tactless and taut personal jab.
7. Yes, i'm a mapper. I love a good map, and [irltbh]... room and hall maps make me puke.
And last but not least:
REMEMBER, I'M PLAYING D'S ADVOCATE. <3
<3
<3
I REALLY love your map HoundDawg, and my criticisms should be taken seriously. As a mapper, i find it seriously inconsiderate that you turtle in at such constructive criticism... take pride in your work, but be flexible. anybody that releases something to the public should expect criticism and take it head on with a positive attitude. thats just the way things are. If my words were purely malicious in intent, I would have responded the same way you did. But they aren't, and I left a few more clues to point that out this time.
Great work on the map, I can't wait to see how it finishes. I'll see you on the server! <3
:o Snarky, I was a surprised to read this. And after reading your latest reply, there's a strong difference between both posts. Even though I did make a few immediate changes due to that last post, your approach was really wrong. I'll explain in a minute.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, as you seem to have missed this entirely, I was playing devil's advocate on you to try and rethink some of the design changes from earlier beta's, that I thought needed some tweaking. With that in mind, your comments about me and my opinions were well un-deserved and purely trashy in context.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind someone playing devil's advocate, but you really didn't make that clear and all I read were flame comments like these:
<ul>
</li><li>"The new look and <b>pointless additions</b> leave me in <b>disbelief</b>."
</li><li>"wind tunnel is <b>useless</b>"
</li><li>"the spaceship serves NO purpose other than to <b>look crappy</b>"
</li><li>"The hive is <b>really dumb</b>"
</li><li>"the hive texturing stands out as a beacon of hope, a fresh change from an <b>eyesore of a map</b>, which <b>voids its purpose</b> as an <b>ugly</b> festering alien building."
</li><li>"RETEXTURE!! God, these <b>look like my 6th grade maps</b> before i knew the texture panel existed."
</li><li>"i honestly suggest a fresh start."
</li></ul>
Don't you see the excessive negatives you had throughout that huge paragraph? Even after I re-read that, I'm amazed that such a crappy map is your favorite co_ map. I mean, you literally told me to scrap the current version and start from scratch.
Also, you hardly offered any alternative examples, especially with the texturing, which you still don't tell me what textures you had in mind. Keep in mind, that the alien hive resides within a rock cavern. I guess that I could have a small marine base at the top that joins everything together to the bottom, but I was looking for something more unique. The rib cage *does* help protect the hive from marine attacks.
Ok, now for your more recent comments:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Regardless, by pointing out how great the original marine start was, I was motioning towards the realism of it. Coming out of a marine base with aliens raining down is a lot more believable...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original marine start became nothing but a "roach motel" for marines. It took them forever to get out of the base. And when they did, they were ambushed at side exit door, very easily. And even with the glass unbroken, aliens could effortlessly spawn camp it. Once the glass was broken on the sides and especially the top, it was pretty much game over for marines as it offered too large of an advantage to aliens.
I also fail to see how you think it was more "believable" for aliens to rain down on a base than it is for them breaking into a landing bay and falling on a docked ship. They're both conceptually the same, but the landing bay scenario provides more ambience than the older base one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your comment about my "whining" about textures was, again, proof that you jumped to personal hostile conclusions and missed my point entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, having a theme throughout your post about poor texturing with no reason provided other than "passe` default half-life dirt textures? Yuck." simply becomes nothing more than noise. You even called it "default half-life", which if you look in the NS2.WAD, you'll find the 2 that I use in there. I used them, because they looked really good. They also provided a good contrast against the older rock texture that I use for the middle bridge area.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The new textures make it very hard to see aliens, and in a map where aliens are the agressive force throughout most of the map, this is an unwelcome aggrivation. The textures are ANNOYING and detract from the gameplay. They do look more realistic, I suppose, but they detract from the experience. Ignore my hypocricy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you finally explain yourself better, but still don't provide me with an alternative solution. O.o
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Did it ever occur to you that maybe once I enjoyed the wind tunnels? ANd maybe I went in them SOOO much, that I realized how fundamentally flawed they were? Perhaps, it is not I who have played so little.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do use them and I also see how many players enjoy battling in there. That weldable fan tunnel provides the Marines with a quick path to the hive area until PG2 opens up. But, it's met with a lot of alien resistance. If you don't like it, don't go there then. Also, you're starting to use words like "fundamentally flawed" without explaining why you think that. So, again, I'm left with a complaint without anything to go by in order to fix it, other than just removing it all together, which will just **** off many other players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By pointing out that the ship can't FLY, I was referring to the fact that it is a giant cement block. Of course I noticed the 3 engines, they are a good start and a welcome hiding place for any low-hp skulk. I agree you made a good ship for the hl1 engine, but is that really a good thing? A base is more believable, potentially more functionable, and lower poly. You obviously aren't going to change your mind, i'm just backing up my greatly misinterpreted criticisms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I knew about the "cement" texturing. If you noticed, I immediately focused a lot of attention on re-texturing and the interior lighting of the ship. You seem to be focused on the ship and still fail to realize that it's not just a ship there, it's a landing bay. In fact, I even put a huge force field looking out into space to help drive this point.
I still fail to see how a base is any more believable than this landing bay. Also, the ship adds yet another unique aspect to the map, which many players really love. How many other NS_ and CO_ maps offer a ship to play in and out of? The only other one I know, is the stargate maps. But, that ship is hardly ever used. Anyway, the new marine start concept does offer the marines with more of a defence and realism to their purpose and the reason their there.
Besides, my time for mapping is running out quickly as I have business projects in RL that about to take off and will absorb my time. So, I can't go around making major changes to the map anymore. You're more than welcome to design and make your own "freefall" concept map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't stand a little creativity? A little breaking out of the mapping box? ARE YOU KIDDING. I cannot believe you would use such descriptions for the hive area. It look's like you stole the hive area from some xen cave. Dark, hard to see walls with water (which is annoying as a marine, rather than an environmental 'realism' addition). With a little 'creativity' you could distinguish this map's texture pallete from a single texture reminiscent of half-life single player cliffs and dirt. And somehow you link my taste in asthetics with my position as a veteran? I don't even need to respond to such a tasteless, tactless and taut personal jab.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this whole paragraph is the result of comments based on your original "flaming and whining" post, which I already covered above. FYI, the hive area isn't from "xen" or even meant to be. I do have many ideas for a hive area, which I wish I could do, but the damn limits on the HL1 engine prevent me from doing anything remotely complex unless I remove a section from the map, and I can't really pick out one. So, I'm left with something simple. You have to also realize, the hive isn't in a marine area like nearly all of the other NS_ and CO_ maps out there.
*sigh* Again, you mention texturing without providing an alternative texture to use. FYI, the dirty water was added to the hive area to serve as a warning to aliens that a marine has entered the chamber. How? Well, I can be at the drop hole and hear a marine moving through the water fairly easily. Also, for some reason, the water seems to have an affect on JP marines. It almost makes them "stick" a little, which I've found odd but a bonus for aliens.
Anyway, I'm sitting at over 90% on clipnodes use and close that on max patches. With that, I usually start having areas of the map where you can stand and see through walls and other objects. Pretty much a VIS thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, i'm a mapper. I love a good map, and [irltbh]... room and hall maps make me puke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like we're on the same page here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I REALLY love your map HoundDawg, and my criticisms should be taken seriously. As a mapper, i find it seriously inconsiderate that you turtle in at such constructive criticism... take pride in your work, but be flexible. anybody that releases something to the public should expect criticism and take it head on with a positive attitude. thats just the way things are. If my words were purely malicious in intent, I would have responded the same way you did. But they aren't, and I left a few more clues to point that out this time.
Great work on the map, I can't wait to see how it finishes. I'll see you on the server! <3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you compare both posts, you can easily tell the difference between "flame and whine" and "constructive criticisms". I really like the feedback you gave on this last one, I'd really appreciate it if you could expand a little in some areas so I have a better idea of what I can do (without scrapping the map).
The overall tone from your first post was, "this map is ****, scrap it and start over you noob mapper". Where, in this post it's more, "as a devil's advocate, these are areas I don't like... but, as a player, I really love your map, keep up the great job!" Do you see the difference here?
Anyway, thanks for the feedback and I now look forward to your reply.
Sounds like another map we all know from 1.04 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (If you played NS back then)
I wouldn't say "incredibly". But, I do realize that non-experienced/lesser-skilled marines will most likely lose. So, I have been working on b19 today and there have been numerous changes that should help them out quite a bit. Aliens will need to become more aggressive. Which means, they need realize that their goal is the CC, not spawn/marine camping.
b19 should be out this afternoon.... maybe as early as within the hour. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 19
- Added More Clip Areas on Hive Rib Spine
- Re-Textured Hive Area Walls
- Changed Hive Area Terrain (more flat areas for evolving)
- Added Large Rock Columns in Hive Area
- Dimmed Hive Area Lighting a Tad
- Removed Lower Fan Tunnel
- Widened Elevator Shaft (eliminates getting stuck at bottom)
- Changed Ship Doors to Open/Close (buttons require a marine near the button)
- Moved 2 Marine Spawns out of Ship
- Changed PG 1 Activation from 10min to 8min
- Changed PG 2 Activation from 30min to 22min
- Added Another PG 1 from Docking Bay to Middle Bridge
- Added a Ladder to Tallest Cargo Stack
- Added Small Boxes Near Small Cargo Corners
- Phasegates Now Only Function when Marine Over Them
- Ship Laser Rods are Now Transparent with Slight Pulse
- Base Turrets Turn in Random Intervals
- Made Fan Vent Water More Shallow
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
speaking of map restart, any reason why the official freefall server restarts the map all the time? can't it just restart the round like those 24/7 dust servers that we've all played on a time or two...
<edit> have you considered moving the spawns back into the ship? I always get my **** bitten off by a skulk hiding behind a box... </edit>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I noticed that too. But, I don't have a solution right off for it yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->speaking of map restart, any reason why the official freefall server restarts the map all the time? can't it just restart the round like those 24/7 dust servers that we've all played on a time or two...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, from what I can tell, NS doesn't reset all of the triggers and other entities at round start/end properly. I haven't found a tutorial or any other information that fixes this condition. When I was in #nsmapping, I had asked the question, but nobody had a solution. In fact, other mappers had the same problem.
The only workaround is to have the server re-load the map for every round. If you don't, you'll notice how the rotating doors inside of the ship no longer function. So, basically, I've got it down to NS not resetting func_door_rotating. I know it does it fine for standard func_door though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><edit> have you considered moving the spawns back into the ship? I always get my **** bitten off by a skulk hiding behind a box... </edit><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The verdict is still out on this one. I've seen marines manage better with outside spawns with this version than the last one. But, for the next release I'm thinking about these possibilities:
1) Just move a few more spawns into the ship.
2) Cluster more external spawns together.
3) Spread external spawns out more.
4) Create a seperate spawning room with a door that only marines can open from the inside.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 20
- Completely New and Expanded Hive Area
- New Freefall Tunnel from Hive Down to Marine Area
- Moved 2 Marine Spawns Back Inside Ship
- Changed PG 1 Activation from 8min to 5min
- Changed PG 2 Activation from 22min to 15min
- Moved PG 2 Exit to New Location
- Disabled Random Base Turret Turning (reducing lag)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
into the ship. it's not pretty to get bitten by a skulk after 1 ns of spawn.
all fans have stopped rotating, including the 'wind tunnel' as people have taken to calling it.
edits: oh, please clipbrush the 2 columns in the 'main' freefall chamber, to allow the skulks to climb to the rings, and clip the bottom of the newest drop chamber with 45 degree invisible brushes at the bottom concrete 'plug' to allow the skulks to climb back up. (also at the top of the new fan room) or, change it from a box to a T shape (I'll map you what I mean) and attach
Why are you always adding the minimaps in the zip? Co maps don't use minimaps... and saves you time, buildminimap can take quite a while.
Here's what I meant in my last post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 21
- Lowered Hive Ceiling Near Hive (anti-JP)
- Changed Lighting in Hive Area (dividing into 3 sections)
- Changed PG 2 Top Door to Force Field (deactivate by welding on hive side)
- Removed Pulse from Force Fields (less lag)
- Decreased Size of Breakable Bay Wall in Water Cavern
- Increased Water Depth in Water Cavern
- Rounded Walls in Water Cavern
- Darkened Middle Bridge Lighting a Tad
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you always adding the minimaps in the zip? Co maps don't use minimaps... and saves you time, buildminimap can take quite a while. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's in the guidelines to. I believe it's for HLTV and spectators. It really doesn't work well for top-down maps like this one, but at least there is one.
Well, the problem is mainly in the func_door_rotating. I have 2 doors like that, which open up at different times via trigger_random. A map round could end before one or both of the doors are triggered. So, to do what you suggest, would only cause the doors to open pre-maturely for the next round. Or, vice-versa.
Flayra has to fix it in his coding. If mappers are to run around in circles trying to work something out to get around the bug, then once he does fix it, the maps could break for that version.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beta 22
- Reduced Radiation Damage in New Freefall Tube
- Removed Top Grate Above Glass Tube
- Decreased Breakable Wall Strength from 3k to 1k
- Reversed Landing Bay Fan Direction
- Lowered Water Cavern (now even deeper)
- Decreased PG 2 Welding from 60 seconds to 30 seconds
- Added Another PG (back to ship) in PG 2 Hive Level Tunnel (for when unwelded)
- Raised Hive a Tad (less JP friendly)
- Added Hive Sound
- Increased Wind Sound at Top of Primary Freefall Hole
- Decreased Breakable Primary Hole Strength from 3k to 1k
- Added Clip from Wing to Top Ship
- Lowered Ship Ladders a Tad (easier to reach and use)
- Lowered CC Floor Down 2 Steps (more Onos friendly)
- Added a Grate Over Ship Engine Pipes
- Moved First Marine Spawn into Ship
- Moved External Marine Spawns on Top of Nearby Crates
- Added 2 Crates Near External PG 1 Room
- Increased Fan Speed in Large Fan Vent
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I still see JP marines navigating pretty good through there and attacking the hive. Sure, it's not as easy as before, but at least it's more fair and balanced.
In fact, b22 is pretty balanced. Both aliens and marines have equal opportunity now. On my server, there have been many games where they've been close with one team winning in only seconds from losing.
Thanks for the feedback though.