remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Feb 16 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Feb 16 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know the last time something was made "fun" in this game, Acid rocket (a hive three weapon on a 50ish res creature) was nerfed so bad... Spit on the gorge (a hive 0 weapon on a 10 res creature) is actually better (as you can focus it). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra did succed in making it more fun, but also halved the effectiveness of it. In order to keep something equal like he attempted, yet more fun, he would need multiply the damage and energy usage by the same amount, and multiply the rate of fire by the inverse of that...
(So 1/2 energy, 1/2 damage, 2/1 rate of fire)
If he had done this, it wouldn't have changed the attack's effectiveness, but would have made it much much much more fun to use.
I seriously think the doubling of the rate of fire is all that is needed...
What, to me, has taken the fun away from the aliens is the consistent nerfing of them, especially at hive 3.
I don't get why hive 3 (highest tech) attacks have to be so weak. A charging onos is no longer a threat, in 1.04 it could take out a HA in 1-2 seconds. Xenocide tickles everything instead of showering them with schrapnel. Fades had a very powerful bile bomb that killed marines and decimated structures. Now they have a water balloon to throw at them. Lerks had a deadly spore which would clear bases of LA marines, either through death or them running for their lives.
Make the hive 3 abilities powerful as they once were and you'll see more fights for that 3rd hive and less "stalemates" where the aliens slowly but surely beat the marines who are holed up in marine start.
In my opinion 3 hives should be the equivalent of a HA train. The winning move unless you are very lucky (with equally skilled and competant teams).
If hive 3 abilities being good (perish the thought) break combat then don't allow players to get them until a certain level. Potential problem solved.
<!--QuoteBegin-Psyke+Feb 16 2004, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psyke @ Feb 16 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra did succed in making it more fun, but also halved the effectiveness of it. In order to keep something equal like he attempted, yet more fun, he would need multiply the damage and energy usage by the same amount, and multiply the rate of fire by the inverse of that...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah well, like Nem said, fun first, then balance second. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm extremely grateful to the developers for being so open minded to various changes.
Here's my two cents:
-Spikes: I think the Lerk is just fine as it is, a very well rounded support/divebomber. The only problem with the removal of spikes is that the Kharaa lose a valuable weapon against a heavy train. This combined with the extreme nerfing of stomp make skilled heavy trains in open areas practically invunerable. I know, skilled heavy trains in open areas are supposed to be nigh impossible to kill, but in certain maps such as Veil, a heavy train outside the hive is pretty much instant doom. Even at three hives with nerfed xeno it's a formidable challenge. Proposed solution: Take stomp back to 1.5 seconds and bring back xeno to 2.01 levels. I know this is a balance issue rather than a fun one, but I was trying to justify leaving spikes out. The current lerk flight system combined with bite I personally find 1000 times more fun than 2.01 spikes.
-Xenocide: This ability is supposed to be the game winner. Considering practically all marines have to do to win is sit on 4 res nodes for 15 minutes, 3 hives should be either an instant win or a very very intense battle against fully teched rines. I personally find Xeno one of the most fun abilities in the game despite the long wait times, getting Cara+Celerity and getting a XenoLeap in the middle of a turreted marine base to kill 4 guys rules. With the nerf, however, it's hardly worth the wait anymore. Bring back Xeno to 2.01 levels with the knockback - I don't see much of a reason for nerfing hive 3 abilities.
-Charge: The rest are debatable but it's nearly unanimous that charge needs to be reworked. It's been suggested numerous times around the various forums here, for charge to be a speed boost/marine blowback/building damage weapon rather than just leap on the ground. For example, the Onos aims a charge at a TF, but there's 3 LA marines in the way. The 3 guys get knocked far to the sides with maybe 50-70 damage dealt to them and the TF takes about 600-800 damage on impact, ending the charge. It's consistent with the Onos' role, it makes sense with physics, it's not redundant with another ability, and it should be able to be done with the engine (though obviously I can't speak for the developers!).
I don't see what's so fun about spikes. Most of the arguments favoring spikes concern how <i>useful</i> it is, not how <i>fun</i> it is. I consider it a very boring ability. A fun ability has to be both useful and fun to use, and spikes only meets the first criteria.
I agree that spores aren't fun. They aren't that fun to use and is very frustrating for marines (so only sadistic aliens have fun with it). Spores would do really well as a 3rd ability though. If it also worked against HA, it would be an awesome anti-turtling weapon.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
Spikes to me are fun merely because it makes you feel like a sniper up on a cliff.
Paired with the new flight model, i could swoop down, bite, stop gliding, and while my velocity is decreased and i start dropping again, I could be spiking them, and then as i start to fall, switch, and go in for the kill.
::shrugs::
Spores don't even ahvea visual cue that they're working, they're just reallly boring.
Spikes have a little bit more fun with them, and, though i don't really agree with the HA train bit, or the building bit, I do think they are more useful. Bite works fine against buildings, and i guess for turrets spike would be better... hmm...
Oh, one more thing about spike: Marines can not hear where it is coming from. You can sit up high, shooting a guy, and he'll freak out knowing a lerk is about to dive at him.
Hehe... I love telling my prey that i'm about to kill them (parasite, or spikes if it was put back in)
::shrugs again::
I think it would just be fun.
I definetely agree with what you just said about charge, though i like to use it to charge and devour, and that would be hard if rines go flying whenever i am about to devour them, lol
And, as I and you said, stomp definetely needs to be fixed. 1 second is just way too little of a time. 2 seconds was definetly too long. 1.5 in my (and yours i guess.) opinion would be perfect.
About spikes: Yes, while it was useful, trying to spike down even one turret took forever. Except for lerks with amazing patience, there was just no base busting ability at ALL. And the game is won, after all, by destroying the marines' base. And have you ever spiked down an RT? Ugh! I do agree that spores should really do a bit more, however. If the lerk were put back to 1.x levels with strong spores, strong umbra, and spikes for sniping plus bite for base busting, I really think we'd have a winner. Give primal scream back to the onos... it'd be more useful than charge at least!
IF you want to make it more fun, go back to your 1.4 roots. The more you go away from it the more boring the game gets. I had to stop playing when 2.0 came out. This version is a little better but none of them compare to 1.4 or will.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited February 2004
I personally don't care about spikes for killing buildings. Bite and regen works much better. I just want it for the psychological effect on the person you're shooting, and just the ability to weaken rines from a distance before closing in for the kill.
edit: Oh, and I forgot. Primal scream + spikes = Sub machine gun. That <i>is</i> one aspect of spikes that i purely loved.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheGivingTree+Feb 16 2004, 05:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGivingTree @ Feb 16 2004, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IF you want to make it more fun, go back to your 1.4 roots. The more you go away from it the more boring the game gets. I had to stop playing when 2.0 came out. This version is a little better but none of them compare to 1.4 or will. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I take it 1.4 is your imaginary version that never existed.
Was it like 1.04 at all? If so then I must say it is definatly inferior to 3.0 in every way possible.
1.04 had some fun aspects but a lot of it was just plain buggy and if you didn't have two hives fast then you were pretty much stuffed :\
Although, if we aren't talking about balance in here anymore, then I agree with the hives thing. Two hive aliens vs marines with level 2 weapons/armour would be fun if they were equal, and three hive aliens would be fun if they were a little more powerful then marines.
With regards to the lerk, I think spikes with the new flight system wouldn't be fun, because you couldn't hover and shoot marines, the instant you looked down to aim, you'd go into a dive straight at them and die when they shoot you :\
I think the best way to make the game more "fun" would be to add a new alien class and a new marine armour class (so they have jetpack/heavy/new). Of course, that'd require modification of a lot of things I guess, but an alien unit that was almost purely ranged attack, and a marine unit that was almost purely melee would make for some interesting battles, of course, that'd take away from the trademark melee vs ranged thing that's happening now in most cases, but other classic RTS games like starcraft and stuff have melee and ranged units for both sides.
I think the lack of fun comes with the lack of diversity in the games. So far, I think the devs have tried to cram everything required into the original units, rather then adding new ones. Games would become much more complex and varied, and much more fun, if there were more choices for evolution or upgrades.
I know NS has specific guns for specific reasons, but if we could get new buildings, or new units or something new, it would make NS more interesting, even if it was unbalanced to start with. Since 1.04 we've had the SAME buildings and the SAME units but they've just had their weapons tweaked.
The only new things for marines have been the hand grenade and catalyst...
Like I said, balance would be an issue to start with, but if we aren't thinking about that then a new alien or two, and a new marine armour class and effective gun rather then an enhancement would make the game much more enjoyable imho.
I don't know what you all are talking about - I think spores are fun as hell. I don't need a visual/audio cue to know they're working. Next time you're playing a marine, take a mental snapshot of what it's like to be constantly spored, then remember it next time you're a lerk. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> But then again maybe I'm just one of those sadistic people you were talking about <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you have sensory and they get armor upgrades to counter focus, you can spore them and watch your focus skulks clear up a squad of marines in no time. I consider that fun! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Feb 17 2004, 07:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Feb 17 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know what you all are talking about - I think spores are fun as hell. I don't need a visual/audio cue to know they're working. Next time you're playing a marine, take a mental snapshot of what it's like to be constantly spored, then remember it next time you're a lerk. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> But then again maybe I'm just one of those sadistic people you were talking about <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you have sensory and they get armor upgrades to counter focus, you can spore them and watch your focus skulks clear up a squad of marines in no time. I consider that fun! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno, gas just surrounds them, and you knwo their health is going down, but they're just standing around like nothing's happening... It's kind of lame. Maybe even like a heavy breathing noise or something.... or a slight hurt noise whenever they loose health to spores?
I just don't find much enjoyment out of it, cause I just can't tell if it's working.
Spikes I love because when you're using them, blood tends to appear on the wall behind the marine, and little sparks and stuff, and for all the reasons I already said, but the best reason is still definetely the fact that I'm letting the guy know I'm out to get him.
Lerks also shouldn't really be able to take out a squad of marines so easily. (combat at least)
Spores make it way too easy. It's pretty possible just without spoers, but if you weaken their armor first, you just go in, and bite each guy with one focused bite... and due to the lerks faster bite speed, by the time you get to the next rine, you're definetely going to have finished the cooldown time.
--
and for some reason I couldn't see the posts after Doobie Dan's first on this page, unless i hit reply and read them there... (hence nme thinking they were deleted or something)
personally, I don't really care how well spikes work when I fly. What I care about is being able to sit at one end of the hall and pick off a marine at the other end faster than if I spored and flew over there. My little lork body is still rather fragile (especially without 2 hive umbra) and spike would help me out a lot in my killing effectiveness. It is a lot easier for a commander to heal a marine suffering from spores than for him to heal a marine under a spike attack.
As far as shooting spikes and flying - yes, it would be difficult, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered. Whenever I lerk, I tend to keep in the back anyway (choosing adrenaline over cerelity) and umbra in to protect and ocasionally spore (though it doesn't do enough dmg to warrant the energy spent on it). I would rather umbra for the heavier guys and then spike my loan target from the back - picking off the strays as opposed to hurting the whole group.
Add to that a 1.04 hive three spore cloud and you have a base buster.
If you remember, in 1.04, spores were the base breaker. They kept the light armour guys dead so that the heavy aliens could clean up the structures. Back then, if you saw spores, you 'had' to get out or die. now you can stay in for 3-4 sprays and not worry about it very much.
And no, im not living in the past. I love many of the 3.0 aspects, but there are things that I miss - that were fun.
I am starting to be more of the mind that primal scream should be given to the skulk. I think you would hear a lot more of it if that happened. Personally, when I lork in combat, I never get primal scream - I just don't think it justifies the expence. So too for the skulk xenocide (in its current form). However, if primal was given to the skulk (ns_maps) as a reward for 3rd hive, I'm sure you would hear it all the time - probably as much as xeno is used - perhaps even more. For a skulk to be able to spead up it's own bite rate - It would be like a leap bite except without the leap.
I think that a trial is in order to see the effectiveness of some of these changes and get some feedback to see how much fun people are having with some of these setups. I am thrilled to see that Nemesis is reading this and actively participating - checking the pulse of the community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Psyke+Feb 17 2004, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psyke @ Feb 17 2004, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerks also shouldn't really be able to take out a squad of marines so easily. (combat at least)
Spores make it way too easy. It's pretty possible just without spoers, but if you weaken their armor first, you just go in, and bite each guy with one focused bite... and due to the lerks faster bite speed, by the time you get to the next rine, you're definetely going to have finished the cooldown time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerks that can take out a squad of marines in combat are very skilled/lucky, or the marines were already weakened by other things. Balance in combat isn't as important or touchy as NS balance, so I won't get into it.
It's risky to attempt that in NS, because that's a 30-36 res investment flying around, so if you pull it off - congrats, you took a risk and reap the reward. I've been sporing + focus bite plenty of times, and it works sometimes, and sometimes you get a shotty blast to the face.
Sorry for letting this get a bit off topic. Other people are bringing it up, so as far as fun factor for slots:
Skulk: PERFECT. I love Xeno, and each ability matches hive number well.
Gorge: Doesn't really matter to me. Whatever abilities you put on the builder are kind of arbitrary, except for heal. You could completely reshuffle the gorge, but it's fine now. LOVE the new bilebomb range, it's actually useful now, and fun to shoot those things from a mile away <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Lerk: Great! Bite + spores makes for a great role, and umbra rules. I strongly agree with the idea that umbra should have a visible effect with blocking bullets, but realize it might not be possible with the engine/time constraints. Primal scream could be taken out and I wouldn't miss it in its current form (increase duration a touch maybe?)
Fade: Blink/swipe defines the fade, the rest is just filler. I wouldn't mind seeing some more creative abilities here, but meta and AR aren't bad. I think there's a strong consensus from everyone that the current acid rocket sucks, but I imagine we'll see a change in the coming versions as it is.
Onos: Abilities match the hive numbers well, I like them. I stand by what I said earlier on charge though! A hive 3 ability should be feared!
Really, all of the hive 3 abilities should be awe-inspiring, because fully teched rines > 2 hive aliens as long as they're semi-organized. If teched marines dominate 2 hive aliens so well, 3 hive aliens should dominate teched marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Feb 17 2004, 01:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Feb 17 2004, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fade: Blink/swipe defines the fade, the rest is just filler. I wouldn't mind seeing some more creative abilities here, but meta and AR aren't bad. I think there's a strong consensus from everyone that the current acid rocket sucks, but I imagine we'll see a change in the coming versions as it is.
Onos: Abilities match the hive numbers well, I like them. I stand by what I said earlier on charge though! A hive 3 ability should be feared!
Really, all of the hive 3 abilities should be awe-inspiring, because fully teched rines > 2 hive aliens as long as they're semi-organized. If teched marines dominate 2 hive aliens so well, 3 hive aliens should dominate teched marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not quite sure what your trying to say...
You at one point say Acid Rocket is a good ability, and then state most hate the current AR. Then to top it all off, you state that 3rd hive abilities should be "awe-inspiring".
So I must ask the question... you think Acid Rocket is "awe-inspiring"?
<!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Feb 17 2004, 07:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Feb 17 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know what you all are talking about - I think spores are fun as hell. I don't need a visual/audio cue to know they're working. Next time you're playing a marine, take a mental snapshot of what it's like to be constantly spored, then remember it next time you're a lerk. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> But then again maybe I'm just one of those sadistic people you were talking about <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you have sensory and they get armor upgrades to counter focus, you can spore them and watch your focus skulks clear up a squad of marines in no time. I consider that fun! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes...very sadistic...
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Feb 17 2004, 02:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Feb 17 2004, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not quite sure what your trying to say...
You at one point say Acid Rocket is a good ability, and then state most hate the current AR. Then to top it all off, you state that 3rd hive abilities should be "awe-inspiring".
So I must ask the question... you think Acid Rocket is "awe-inspiring"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When I say Acid Rocket is a good ability, I meant good but not great (as far as fitting with the fade), at any rate it doesn't need to be taken out or moved. I also say that ignoring the numbers, and in 2.01 it was good. I was under the impression that the latest changes to Acid Rocket were not well received by the community, and the devs were trying to revise it somehow (correct me if I'm wrong). And I think hive 3 abilities <i>should</i> be awe-inspiring, not that they are. Not necessarily awe-inspiring even (I think webs are a pretty good hive 3 ability) but game-winning. While the 2.01 Acid Rocket wasn't very powerful, it was enough to put a dent into turtling marines.
ok you seem to not know EXACTLY what they did to AR, so let me inform you as to why everyone is upset about acid rocket.
First we go over the changes made recently, AR's Damage was cut in half, then the adrenaline useage was also cut in half. See the problem yet? The lower Adrenaline use isn't an important change. (as usually your at long range and can easily blink away) and doesn't compensate for the damage reduction. To be honest, what happened to Acid Rocket seems more like an oversight then plain hatred for the alien race. To make AR behave as the developers (apparently) wanted to do, you would also need to boost the Rate of Fire for acid rocket. It makes sense when you think about it. Developers wanted Quantity over quality... (which is a good idea considering how Acid Rockets are now pretty much the only thing to kill GOOD jetpackers) now 2 Acid rockets will replace the One acid rocket from the previous version. Half damage, Half adrenaline drain, DOUBLE ROF!
Yes, you people want to make aliens fun by making them a total fragging machine and win just because you like it. Of course we all like to win, but there's other people are playing aswell, not just you selfish **** out there (Marines & Aliens). I know the marines are balanced (so thought) it seems that people can't appericate the true tactics of aliens. It seems people are misunderstanding the true powers of aliens and don't understand why this was fixed, why is this crappy and why it was changed in the first place. This is a simple concept that everyone ignores, just because your on aliens doesn't mean that it has to be unstoppable along with marines. We just need to come to an conclusion where all alien moves, weapons, abilites, and tactics, and the marine team are PERFECTLY Balanced. Yes, we want to make this game fun, but in a funny ingorant way, it's fun if you win or lose. You just learn from your/teams mistakes, practice and become a better gamer. It's fun for all not just you, you have to understand that and if your upset with a way the game works, you need to look and try to figure out why, how come, and what for. It's truly that simple, you can't just rant that it sucks unless it obiously underpowered or there's a pretty damn good reason to. After all this is a BETA!
<!--QuoteBegin-Poochi+Feb 17 2004, 07:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Poochi @ Feb 17 2004, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's truly that simple, you can't just rant that it sucks unless it obiously underpowered or there's a pretty damn good reason to. After all this is a BETA! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*points at Acid Rocket and Charge*
The BEST abilities on the top two units suck BADLY.
'nough said unfortunetly <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In a game that has become about res I fail to see how removing spkes and forcing lerks to sit in the rear with the gear is good for the game, sure you can try to fly in and bite the rines but if they have any SG's then 8/10 times the lerk is toast and if they have HA's and shotties tehn lerk is in more trouble due to added time taken to kill 1 rine . spike I dont think ever unbalanced a game just gave aliens who had little res a chance to take out those danm elec res nodes.
The only way I have seen ppl effectively playing lerk is to sit back and umbra the onos/fade and occassionally get a stray marine with a LMG whislt someone else is getting shot at. waht it effectively means is that gorge and lerk are support crews and skulks cannon fodder. Fades can really on swipe and blink and onos is just a target waiting to die unless a lerk is turtling him. I always thought that as aliens you where meant to be able to play more of an individual game and not be reliant on team work to get kills which is what has happened after spikes where removed.
Shotguns DO have a weakness, but it's a weakness aliens cannot take advantage of. Hence, the shotgun is ubiquitous and useful against every alien, both units and structures.
However, adding spikes back in isn't a good solution, since spikes are boring (I'm pretty sure most people agree with me here). If something was added to spikes, like a paralyze effect, it would be more fun to use.
Skulk: I agree, its delicious now. Marines can kill it and it can kill marines. (though it can jump like Super Mario, turning and twithing in mid-air and making impossible to shoot. Little too much taste of abuse here.)
Lerk: If its supposed to be support alien, It doesnt work too well. Spore is - as said - too weak to weaken marines when needed, and primal scream is utterly useless in the time it must be used. Id try chaning scream to lower slots or to onos now. Flying and biting is super fun and makes everything else look useless <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gorge: Healing spray doesnt kill anymore <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> But why gorge in combat? It doesnt fit there! No reason for gorge to be in combat (it cant build anything and must have at least webs all over to be useful. That slows down horribly marine raid and is not fun nor useful)
Fade: Havent played much, but I remember in old days how fade appeared in front of three marines. Ten seconds later it was standing against three fizzling acid bulps which were marines. So I say it should be changed to "utterly overpowered" level, because it is hive three ability.
Onos: Ewww. Me no like. It really doesnt make damage enough to compensate the slowness. I hate HATE devour (instakill weapon which doesnt work on big groups but kills all smaller Heavy trains). Makes heavy armour useless and marines cry. Marines have already won if there is enough heavy armours to kill onos or two before devour. I thought there wasnt supposed to be instakill weapons? (and besides, how the hell that big cow jumps, devours another jumping, struggling, shooting marine in hulking armour in under .0035 seconds?) Stomp is nice, It doesnt instakill but makes marines tremble in fear. Though it is working against all laws of physics, its tolerable. (who has been stomped from distance So I would just add heaps of damage to gore and shitload of same thing into charge. As said, hive three abilities are supposed to be utter killers. Making enough damage would be enough a offense against heavy trains. At least I would die honorably screaming for mercy.
All chambers make use now too. Even DC-MC-SC combo is being used much now, I find it more rare to happen. More combos also grew up pretty fast.
Commander: Core of marine brains. Everyone likes. I would point out bugs concerning icons and stuff, but I wont. I would just appreciate feature which is common in most strategy games: For example press shift and then all items - with possibility of interaction - light up and cursor will "align in grid" with them. So you can easily command marine to weld, build and stuff like that. Would make it even possible at last to open doors and call elevators for squad. (it has been possible but not in terms of usefulness)
Light armour marine: What can I say? Same as skulk. It kills and is being killed. It can support, offend and kill anything when teamed and with welder.
Heavy armour: "I AM THE LAW!"
Marine weapons: Shotgun is little bit too versatile. Even I like it too much to say anything bad. Its little too good in hands of pro. But loading ammo takes time, reloading takes time and you really can be disappointed in its effect when squad of shotgun marines are wiped out. Heavy machine gun doesnt rape anything and everything anymore as it should. But why welder doesnt damage structures anymore? It was much cooler to weld resource towers than take that little knife and start twitching against slimy alien structure while wearing scary heavy armour.
Jetpack: Well, I've never liked it much. In combat it kills a hive solo (if there is no gorges) and in untrained hands (backs?) it destroys the marine team. It can fly almost endlessly and having ranged attack, its considered bigger and cheaper threat than lerk.
Turret fort: Sweeet. Well balanced building time, research and cost. Sometimes marines succeed in keeping turret fort secured, and sometimes not. When they do, its most likely filled with turrets and siege cannons start blowing up alien slime balls. Let the fight for survival begin. Freedooooom! (makes some point for bigger fights, not only 'destroy marine command console' game)
Players: Well, some games work out, some wont. Some wont. If marines wont listen commander, its either cause they are bad BAD marines or the commander doesnt give out orders. Even then I would find training program very useful. Or training servers to be exact. Two games in bot servers (with two humans in both sides and four bots) thaught me more than any stressful game full of newbies screaming for guns. And marines also liked to shoot easy bot aliens.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
I was playing on a server today, and I believe it had the Marine Blood plugin, for I don't this occurs normally... but when people walked into my spore cloud, little bits of blood came out of them, and wow, it made spores like 5x better, considering I could see it actually having an effect.
Normally it just looks like the marine walks through unharmed, but if they bleed as they walk through it it's obvious it's hurting them.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
and as u see its hurting them, thats when u swoop in and bite them.
you have to play lerk as u play skulk. AMBUSH. lerk is a good support class, but its also a very good attack class. Give it time, use it more, get used to it. Its not hard to take out HA with just a lerk. Fly by, bite once or twice, swoop away, regen, repeat.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
... what's your point? I know how to use lerks.... I take down heavies quite easily, and I've taken down whole teams before... I don't believe I need to give it any time, I'm just discussing the fun factor behind spores.
Comments
Flayra did succed in making it more fun, but also halved the effectiveness of it. In order to keep something equal like he attempted, yet more fun, he would need multiply the damage and energy usage by the same amount, and multiply the rate of fire by the inverse of that...
(So 1/2 energy, 1/2 damage, 2/1 rate of fire)
If he had done this, it wouldn't have changed the attack's effectiveness, but would have made it much much much more fun to use.
I seriously think the doubling of the rate of fire is all that is needed...
I don't get why hive 3 (highest tech) attacks have to be so weak. A charging onos is no longer a threat, in 1.04 it could take out a HA in 1-2 seconds. Xenocide tickles everything instead of showering them with schrapnel. Fades had a very powerful bile bomb that killed marines and decimated structures. Now they have a water balloon to throw at them. Lerks had a deadly spore which would clear bases of LA marines, either through death or them running for their lives.
Make the hive 3 abilities powerful as they once were and you'll see more fights for that 3rd hive and less "stalemates" where the aliens slowly but surely beat the marines who are holed up in marine start.
In my opinion 3 hives should be the equivalent of a HA train. The winning move unless you are very lucky (with equally skilled and competant teams).
If hive 3 abilities being good (perish the thought) break combat then don't allow players to get them until a certain level. Potential problem solved.
Yeah well, like Nem said, fun first, then balance second. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm extremely grateful to the developers for being so open minded to various changes.
Here's my two cents:
-Spikes: I think the Lerk is just fine as it is, a very well rounded support/divebomber. The only problem with the removal of spikes is that the Kharaa lose a valuable weapon against a heavy train. This combined with the extreme nerfing of stomp make skilled heavy trains in open areas practically invunerable. I know, skilled heavy trains in open areas are supposed to be nigh impossible to kill, but in certain maps such as Veil, a heavy train outside the hive is pretty much instant doom. Even at three hives with nerfed xeno it's a formidable challenge. Proposed solution: Take stomp back to 1.5 seconds and bring back xeno to 2.01 levels. I know this is a balance issue rather than a fun one, but I was trying to justify leaving spikes out. The current lerk flight system combined with bite I personally find 1000 times more fun than 2.01 spikes.
-Xenocide: This ability is supposed to be the game winner. Considering practically all marines have to do to win is sit on 4 res nodes for 15 minutes, 3 hives should be either an instant win or a very very intense battle against fully teched rines. I personally find Xeno one of the most fun abilities in the game despite the long wait times, getting Cara+Celerity and getting a XenoLeap in the middle of a turreted marine base to kill 4 guys rules. With the nerf, however, it's hardly worth the wait anymore. Bring back Xeno to 2.01 levels with the knockback - I don't see much of a reason for nerfing hive 3 abilities.
-Charge: The rest are debatable but it's nearly unanimous that charge needs to be reworked. It's been suggested numerous times around the various forums here, for charge to be a speed boost/marine blowback/building damage weapon rather than just leap on the ground. For example, the Onos aims a charge at a TF, but there's 3 LA marines in the way. The 3 guys get knocked far to the sides with maybe 50-70 damage dealt to them and the TF takes about 600-800 damage on impact, ending the charge. It's consistent with the Onos' role, it makes sense with physics, it's not redundant with another ability, and it should be able to be done with the engine (though obviously I can't speak for the developers!).
I agree that spores aren't fun. They aren't that fun to use and is very frustrating for marines (so only sadistic aliens have fun with it). Spores would do really well as a 3rd ability though. If it also worked against HA, it would be an awesome anti-turtling weapon.
Paired with the new flight model, i could swoop down, bite, stop gliding, and while my velocity is decreased and i start dropping again, I could be spiking them, and then as i start to fall, switch, and go in for the kill.
::shrugs::
Spores don't even ahvea visual cue that they're working, they're just reallly boring.
Spikes have a little bit more fun with them, and, though i don't really agree with the HA train bit, or the building bit, I do think they are more useful. Bite works fine against buildings, and i guess for turrets spike would be better... hmm...
Oh, one more thing about spike:
Marines can not hear where it is coming from. You can sit up high, shooting a guy, and he'll freak out knowing a lerk is about to dive at him.
Hehe... I love telling my prey that i'm about to kill them (parasite, or spikes if it was put back in)
::shrugs again::
I think it would just be fun.
I definetely agree with what you just said about charge, though i like to use it to charge and devour, and that would be hard if rines go flying whenever i am about to devour them, lol
And, as I and you said, stomp definetely needs to be fixed. 1 second is just way too little of a time. 2 seconds was definetly too long. 1.5 in my (and yours i guess.) opinion would be perfect.
Bite and regen works much better.
I just want it for the psychological effect on the person you're shooting, and just the ability to weaken rines from a distance before closing in for the kill.
edit: Oh, and I forgot. Primal scream + spikes = Sub machine gun. That <i>is</i> one aspect of spikes that i purely loved.
I take it 1.4 is your imaginary version that never existed.
Was it like 1.04 at all? If so then I must say it is definatly inferior to 3.0 in every way possible.
Although, if we aren't talking about balance in here anymore, then I agree with the hives thing. Two hive aliens vs marines with level 2 weapons/armour would be fun if they were equal, and three hive aliens would be fun if they were a little more powerful then marines.
With regards to the lerk, I think spikes with the new flight system wouldn't be fun, because you couldn't hover and shoot marines, the instant you looked down to aim, you'd go into a dive straight at them and die when they shoot you :\
I think the best way to make the game more "fun" would be to add a new alien class and a new marine armour class (so they have jetpack/heavy/new). Of course, that'd require modification of a lot of things I guess, but an alien unit that was almost purely ranged attack, and a marine unit that was almost purely melee would make for some interesting battles, of course, that'd take away from the trademark melee vs ranged thing that's happening now in most cases, but other classic RTS games like starcraft and stuff have melee and ranged units for both sides.
I think the lack of fun comes with the lack of diversity in the games. So far, I think the devs have tried to cram everything required into the original units, rather then adding new ones. Games would become much more complex and varied, and much more fun, if there were more choices for evolution or upgrades.
I know NS has specific guns for specific reasons, but if we could get new buildings, or new units or something new, it would make NS more interesting, even if it was unbalanced to start with. Since 1.04 we've had the SAME buildings and the SAME units but they've just had their weapons tweaked.
The only new things for marines have been the hand grenade and catalyst...
Like I said, balance would be an issue to start with, but if we aren't thinking about that then a new alien or two, and a new marine armour class and effective gun rather then an enhancement would make the game much more enjoyable imho.
If you have sensory and they get armor upgrades to counter focus, you can spore them and watch your focus skulks clear up a squad of marines in no time. I consider that fun! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you have sensory and they get armor upgrades to counter focus, you can spore them and watch your focus skulks clear up a squad of marines in no time. I consider that fun! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, gas just surrounds them, and you knwo their health is going down, but they're just standing around like nothing's happening... It's kind of lame. Maybe even like a heavy breathing noise or something.... or a slight hurt noise whenever they loose health to spores?
I just don't find much enjoyment out of it, cause I just can't tell if it's working.
Spikes I love because when you're using them, blood tends to appear on the wall behind the marine, and little sparks and stuff, and for all the reasons I already said, but the best reason is still definetely the fact that I'm letting the guy know I'm out to get him.
Lerks also shouldn't really be able to take out a squad of marines so easily. (combat at least)
Spores make it way too easy.
It's pretty possible just without spoers, but if you weaken their armor first, you just go in, and bite each guy with one focused bite... and due to the lerks faster bite speed, by the time you get to the next rine, you're definetely going to have finished the cooldown time.
--
and for some reason I couldn't see the posts after Doobie Dan's first on this page, unless i hit reply and read them there... (hence nme thinking they were deleted or something)
As far as shooting spikes and flying - yes, it would be difficult, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered. Whenever I lerk, I tend to keep in the back anyway (choosing adrenaline over cerelity) and umbra in to protect and ocasionally spore (though it doesn't do enough dmg to warrant the energy spent on it). I would rather umbra for the heavier guys and then spike my loan target from the back - picking off the strays as opposed to hurting the whole group.
Add to that a 1.04 hive three spore cloud and you have a base buster.
If you remember, in 1.04, spores were the base breaker. They kept the light armour guys dead so that the heavy aliens could clean up the structures. Back then, if you saw spores, you 'had' to get out or die. now you can stay in for 3-4 sprays and not worry about it very much.
And no, im not living in the past. I love many of the 3.0 aspects, but there are things that I miss - that were fun.
I am starting to be more of the mind that primal scream should be given to the skulk. I think you would hear a lot more of it if that happened. Personally, when I lork in combat, I never get primal scream - I just don't think it justifies the expence. So too for the skulk xenocide (in its current form). However, if primal was given to the skulk (ns_maps) as a reward for 3rd hive, I'm sure you would hear it all the time - probably as much as xeno is used - perhaps even more. For a skulk to be able to spead up it's own bite rate - It would be like a leap bite except without the leap.
I think that a trial is in order to see the effectiveness of some of these changes and get some feedback to see how much fun people are having with some of these setups. I am thrilled to see that Nemesis is reading this and actively participating - checking the pulse of the community.
Spores make it way too easy.
It's pretty possible just without spoers, but if you weaken their armor first, you just go in, and bite each guy with one focused bite... and due to the lerks faster bite speed, by the time you get to the next rine, you're definetely going to have finished the cooldown time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks that can take out a squad of marines in combat are very skilled/lucky, or the marines were already weakened by other things. Balance in combat isn't as important or touchy as NS balance, so I won't get into it.
It's risky to attempt that in NS, because that's a 30-36 res investment flying around, so if you pull it off - congrats, you took a risk and reap the reward. I've been sporing + focus bite plenty of times, and it works sometimes, and sometimes you get a shotty blast to the face.
Sorry for letting this get a bit off topic. Other people are bringing it up, so as far as fun factor for slots:
Skulk: PERFECT. I love Xeno, and each ability matches hive number well.
Gorge: Doesn't really matter to me. Whatever abilities you put on the builder are kind of arbitrary, except for heal. You could completely reshuffle the gorge, but it's fine now. LOVE the new bilebomb range, it's actually useful now, and fun to shoot those things from a mile away <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Lerk: Great! Bite + spores makes for a great role, and umbra rules. I strongly agree with the idea that umbra should have a visible effect with blocking bullets, but realize it might not be possible with the engine/time constraints. Primal scream could be taken out and I wouldn't miss it in its current form (increase duration a touch maybe?)
Fade: Blink/swipe defines the fade, the rest is just filler. I wouldn't mind seeing some more creative abilities here, but meta and AR aren't bad. I think there's a strong consensus from everyone that the current acid rocket sucks, but I imagine we'll see a change in the coming versions as it is.
Onos: Abilities match the hive numbers well, I like them. I stand by what I said earlier on charge though! A hive 3 ability should be feared!
Really, all of the hive 3 abilities should be awe-inspiring, because fully teched rines > 2 hive aliens as long as they're semi-organized. If teched marines dominate 2 hive aliens so well, 3 hive aliens should dominate teched marines.
Onos: Abilities match the hive numbers well, I like them. I stand by what I said earlier on charge though! A hive 3 ability should be feared!
Really, all of the hive 3 abilities should be awe-inspiring, because fully teched rines > 2 hive aliens as long as they're semi-organized. If teched marines dominate 2 hive aliens so well, 3 hive aliens should dominate teched marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not quite sure what your trying to say...
You at one point say Acid Rocket is a good ability, and then state most hate the current AR. Then to top it all off, you state that 3rd hive abilities should be "awe-inspiring".
So I must ask the question... you think Acid Rocket is "awe-inspiring"?
If you have sensory and they get armor upgrades to counter focus, you can spore them and watch your focus skulks clear up a squad of marines in no time. I consider that fun! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes...very sadistic...
You at one point say Acid Rocket is a good ability, and then state most hate the current AR. Then to top it all off, you state that 3rd hive abilities should be "awe-inspiring".
So I must ask the question... you think Acid Rocket is "awe-inspiring"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I say Acid Rocket is a good ability, I meant good but not great (as far as fitting with the fade), at any rate it doesn't need to be taken out or moved. I also say that ignoring the numbers, and in 2.01 it was good. I was under the impression that the latest changes to Acid Rocket were not well received by the community, and the devs were trying to revise it somehow (correct me if I'm wrong). And I think hive 3 abilities <i>should</i> be awe-inspiring, not that they are. Not necessarily awe-inspiring even (I think webs are a pretty good hive 3 ability) but game-winning. While the 2.01 Acid Rocket wasn't very powerful, it was enough to put a dent into turtling marines.
First we go over the changes made recently, AR's Damage was cut in half, then the adrenaline useage was also cut in half. See the problem yet? The lower Adrenaline use isn't an important change. (as usually your at long range and can easily blink away) and doesn't compensate for the damage reduction. To be honest, what happened to Acid Rocket seems more like an oversight then plain hatred for the alien race. To make AR behave as the developers (apparently) wanted to do, you would also need to boost the Rate of Fire for acid rocket. It makes sense when you think about it. Developers wanted Quantity over quality... (which is a good idea considering how Acid Rockets are now pretty much the only thing to kill GOOD jetpackers) now 2 Acid rockets will replace the One acid rocket from the previous version. Half damage, Half adrenaline drain, DOUBLE ROF!
I hope that clears up the issue for you.
*points at Acid Rocket and Charge*
The BEST abilities on the top two units suck BADLY.
'nough said unfortunetly <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only way I have seen ppl effectively playing lerk is to sit back and umbra the onos/fade and occassionally get a stray marine with a LMG whislt someone else is getting shot at. waht it effectively means is that gorge and lerk are support crews and skulks cannon fodder. Fades can really on swipe and blink and onos is just a target waiting to die unless a lerk is turtling him. I always thought that as aliens you where meant to be able to play more of an individual game and not be reliant on team work to get kills which is what has happened after spikes where removed.
However, adding spikes back in isn't a good solution, since spikes are boring (I'm pretty sure most people agree with me here). If something was added to spikes, like a paralyze effect, it would be more fun to use.
Skulk: I agree, its delicious now. Marines can kill it and it can kill marines. (though it can jump like Super Mario, turning and twithing in mid-air and making impossible to shoot. Little too much taste of abuse here.)
Lerk: If its supposed to be support alien, It doesnt work too well. Spore is - as said - too weak to weaken marines when needed, and primal scream is utterly useless in the time it must be used. Id try chaning scream to lower slots or to onos now.
Flying and biting is super fun and makes everything else look useless <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gorge: Healing spray doesnt kill anymore <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> But why gorge in combat? It doesnt fit there! No reason for gorge to be in combat (it cant build anything and must have at least webs all over to be useful. That slows down horribly marine raid and is not fun nor useful)
Fade: Havent played much, but I remember in old days how fade appeared in front of three marines. Ten seconds later it was standing against three fizzling acid bulps which were marines. So I say it should be changed to "utterly overpowered" level, because it is hive three ability.
Onos: Ewww. Me no like. It really doesnt make damage enough to compensate the slowness. I hate HATE devour (instakill weapon which doesnt work on big groups but kills all smaller Heavy trains). Makes heavy armour useless and marines cry. Marines have already won if there is enough heavy armours to kill onos or two before devour. I thought there wasnt supposed to be instakill weapons? (and besides, how the hell that big cow jumps, devours another jumping, struggling, shooting marine in hulking armour in under .0035 seconds?)
Stomp is nice, It doesnt instakill but makes marines tremble in fear. Though it is working against all laws of physics, its tolerable. (who has been stomped from distance
So I would just add heaps of damage to gore and shitload of same thing into charge. As said, hive three abilities are supposed to be utter killers. Making enough damage would be enough a offense against heavy trains. At least I would die honorably screaming for mercy.
All chambers make use now too. Even DC-MC-SC combo is being used much now, I find it more rare to happen. More combos also grew up pretty fast.
Commander: Core of marine brains. Everyone likes. I would point out bugs concerning icons and stuff, but I wont. I would just appreciate feature which is common in most strategy games: For example press shift and then all items - with possibility of interaction - light up and cursor will "align in grid" with them. So you can easily command marine to weld, build and stuff like that. Would make it even possible at last to open doors and call elevators for squad. (it has been possible but not in terms of usefulness)
Light armour marine: What can I say? Same as skulk. It kills and is being killed. It can support, offend and kill anything when teamed and with welder.
Heavy armour: "I AM THE LAW!"
Marine weapons: Shotgun is little bit too versatile. Even I like it too much to say anything bad. Its little too good in hands of pro. But loading ammo takes time, reloading takes time and you really can be disappointed in its effect when squad of shotgun marines are wiped out.
Heavy machine gun doesnt rape anything and everything anymore as it should.
But why welder doesnt damage structures anymore? It was much cooler to weld resource towers than take that little knife and start twitching against slimy alien structure while wearing scary heavy armour.
Jetpack: Well, I've never liked it much. In combat it kills a hive solo (if there is no gorges) and in untrained hands (backs?) it destroys the marine team. It can fly almost endlessly and having ranged attack, its considered bigger and cheaper threat than lerk.
Turret fort: Sweeet. Well balanced building time, research and cost. Sometimes marines succeed in keeping turret fort secured, and sometimes not. When they do, its most likely filled with turrets and siege cannons start blowing up alien slime balls. Let the fight for survival begin. Freedooooom!
(makes some point for bigger fights, not only 'destroy marine command console' game)
Players: Well, some games work out, some wont. Some wont. If marines wont listen commander, its either cause they are bad BAD marines or the commander doesnt give out orders. Even then I would find training program very useful. Or training servers to be exact. Two games in bot servers (with two humans in both sides and four bots) thaught me more than any stressful game full of newbies screaming for guns. And marines also liked to shoot easy bot aliens.
Normally it just looks like the marine walks through unharmed, but if they bleed as they walk through it it's obvious it's hurting them.
you have to play lerk as u play skulk. AMBUSH. lerk is a good support class, but its also a very good attack class. Give it time, use it more, get used to it. Its not hard to take out HA with just a lerk. Fly by, bite once or twice, swoop away, regen, repeat.