Ns_ Balance
briDge
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17583Members
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17583Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Beta 4 Changelog should look like this</div> Before giving my changelog with changes that I have thought about very extensively, I would like to explain what is currently wrong with Natural Selection in its beta build. I am not making any accusations because obviously it is a beta build, and it is undergoing changes. However, to me the balance problems are painfully obvious and simple. To sum it up in a phrase, aliens are too weak at the first hive, and too powerful at the second. In almost all games now, the aliens secure an additional hive and have the second hive complete by the eight minute mark. Once that hive is complete unless resource nodes have been completely and utterly neglected, or there is zero teamwork (read: umbra and tactical strikes) an alien loss is very rare.
So without more rambling I give my Changelog.
Marines <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Distress Beacon now summons the entire marine force to the location of the observatory where beacon was purchased.
-Distress Beacon cost increased to 20 resources.
-Distress Beacon now requires Phase Tech research to function.
-Distress Beacon has a cooldown of 45 seconds on each observatory.
-Observatory hitpoints increased by 500
-Arms Lab hitpoints increased by 1000
-Marines who no longer have an Arms Lab because it was destroyed or recycled will lose all ammunition and armor upgrades, and they must be researched again.
-Ammuntion upgrade damage increases lowered to 25/50/75.
-Shotgun damage efficiency versus hives (not all structures - only hives) decreased to 50%.
-Heavy Machine Gun damage efficiency versus all structures - including hives - increased to 75%.
Kharaa <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Fade armor decreased by 50.
-Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade.
-Various Fade hitbox issues fixed
-Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade.
-Lerk base and carapace armor increased by 15
-Fade now costs 60 resources.
-Onos now costs 80 resources.
-Stomp range of stun capped at approximately 5 yards.
Note: I still think Movement and Sensory should be viable first chambers, but I cannot for the life of me think of unique ways of making these chambers good at first hive. Sensory cloaking is invaluable when your alien team is smart, but an observatory ends the fun quickly, and a single armor upgrade kills focus. Sensory and Move need upgrades but I cannot think of them.
So without more rambling I give my Changelog.
Marines <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Distress Beacon now summons the entire marine force to the location of the observatory where beacon was purchased.
-Distress Beacon cost increased to 20 resources.
-Distress Beacon now requires Phase Tech research to function.
-Distress Beacon has a cooldown of 45 seconds on each observatory.
-Observatory hitpoints increased by 500
-Arms Lab hitpoints increased by 1000
-Marines who no longer have an Arms Lab because it was destroyed or recycled will lose all ammunition and armor upgrades, and they must be researched again.
-Ammuntion upgrade damage increases lowered to 25/50/75.
-Shotgun damage efficiency versus hives (not all structures - only hives) decreased to 50%.
-Heavy Machine Gun damage efficiency versus all structures - including hives - increased to 75%.
Kharaa <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Fade armor decreased by 50.
-Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade.
-Various Fade hitbox issues fixed
-Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade.
-Lerk base and carapace armor increased by 15
-Fade now costs 60 resources.
-Onos now costs 80 resources.
-Stomp range of stun capped at approximately 5 yards.
Note: I still think Movement and Sensory should be viable first chambers, but I cannot for the life of me think of unique ways of making these chambers good at first hive. Sensory cloaking is invaluable when your alien team is smart, but an observatory ends the fun quickly, and a single armor upgrade kills focus. Sensory and Move need upgrades but I cannot think of them.
Comments
Can't be done, and I don't care how to explain why.
-Distress Beacon cost increased to 20 resources.
-Distress Beacon now requires Phase Tech research to function.
-Distress Beacon has a cooldown of 45 seconds on each observatory.
-Observatory hitpoints increased by 500
Why? OBS seems fine.
-Arms Lab hitpoints increased by 1000
Why?
-Marines who no longer have an Arms Lab because it was destroyed or recycled will lose all ammunition and armor upgrades, and they must be researched again.
Realstically, yes, but NS is far from realistic. Having to again spend money on an Arms Lab, build it, then spend res and time on reupgrading all marines wouldn't be fun.
-Heavy Machine Gun damage efficiency versus all structures - including hives - increased to 75%.
That would further imbalance the game. HMGs aren't that hard to come by really, and making them able to plow though everything wouldn't be fun for aliens, and would increase the "they have HMGs, we sorta all ready lost." Get a GL if you want to destroy structures.
-Fade armor decreased by 50.
-Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade.
-Various Fade hitbox issues fixed
I could live with it, but don't really care...
-Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade.
The skulk armor is the way it is because it now has proper hitboxes.
-Fade now costs 60 resources.
-Onos now costs 80 resources.
Meh...
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no offence, but i stopped reading your changelog when i saw that.
Second about the observatory. First let me say I understand the technical problems but it is a change that must be made. THe current algorithm is to use the same script that spawns marines at the start of the game to reset all marines at marine start. That could be changed to have the phase gate algorithm and create playerentities at the specific location of the observatory. It WOULD be possible.
Why so much focus on the beacon though, like the incredibly condescending and close minded poster above, I'm sure people are wondering what the hell is up with all the obs/beacon changes. The answer is the beacon would become the centerpiece of offense, and fortification. Heavy armor are too cumbersome, too slow, rambos are too plentiful, relying on a train of heavy armor to get from point A to B without being picked off by devouring onos and fades is impossible.
How many times have you been heavy training a hive, and while attacking said hive you lose all of your fortifications at another hive, because you cannot defend and attack simultaneously? The mobility of marines needs to be brought up. THe marines are focused on fortification of resources and hives. They have zero mobility to make up for that fortification.
So with my changes, observatories would be placed at hives, and offensive positions, and could be beaconed by the commander to move his troops quickly from point A to B together, but not without cost.
If you cannot see the value of the beacon changes I have listed then quite simply you are a commanding novice.
"If you cannot see the value of the beacon changes I have listed then quite simply you are a commanding novice. "
Uhh yeah, we can see just _HOW_ valuable those changes would be. They would be TOO valuable.
LOL seriously... Marines are already pretty damn good as they are... but I can forsee many less than a minute games if that obs change was made. Well, a little over a minute since phasetech is required. One marine makes it into hive, or right outside, commander loads team up with shotguns, beacons them in. GG hive. Every time. At least with a phasegate, aliens can hear it pretty far away, and have time to get there and do something especially since one marine can get in at a time. Obviously phasegates are on the same wavelength as this new obs change would be, but the obs would be ridiculously overpowered, because it could call in EVERY marine at once, unlike a one at a time phasegate.
The observatoryi dea is a pretty dumb idea IMO, no offense to the poster.
Say, that's not bad, seeing how beacon becomes rather useless if the marines relocate. If the active CC with observatory is at a hive location, and there's no hive, use those spawn points for beacon. Might require a little care to prevent exploits, but I really like this. It's the next best thing to beacon working anywhere [any base, that is].
Say, that's not bad, seeing how beacon becomes rather useless if the marines relocate. If the active CC with observatory is at a hive location, and there's no hive, use those spawn points for beacon. Might require a little care to prevent exploits, but I really like this. It's the next best thing to beacon working anywhere [any base, that is]. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but even thinking about that now... would be overpowered for marines. I mean whats to dictate that they relocated to that hive? They might have just stayed right in MS and put an obs in the hive. Spawn into hive, kill it, gg. I mean, sure you could put restrictions, like there has to be a CC in the hive for it to work, but whats to stop them from just putting a CC and obs in the hive? I mean I guess they could just make it where you need a few diff structures in the hive, but still...
Say, that's not bad, seeing how beacon becomes rather useless if the marines relocate. If the active CC with observatory is at a hive location, and there's no hive, use those spawn points for beacon. Might require a little care to prevent exploits, but I really like this. It's the next best thing to beacon working anywhere [any base, that is]. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but even thinking about that now... would be overpowered for marines. I mean whats to dictate that they relocated to that hive? They might have just stayed right in MS and put an obs in the hive. Spawn into hive, kill it, gg. I mean, sure you could put restrictions, like there has to be a CC in the hive for it to work, but whats to stop them from just putting a CC and obs in the hive? I mean I guess they could just make it where you need a few diff structures in the hive, but still...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be the exploiting part. It'd either require that the CC there be occupied for <i>x</i> minutes before being able to beacon (as opposed to hopping out at base's for a second and having someone jump into the hive's [and then another CC couldn't beacon until it was the only one occupied for whatever time - it's still done via obs, but the "current" CC would be needed nearby]), or possibly require the presence of a set list of other structures to prove that there's actually a "base" there. First is much better for obvious reasons.
Edit: Reasons being that there is no "set list" for a base and beacon tends to be needed most when other structures are conspicuously missing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Distress Beacon now summons the entire marine force to the location of the observatory where beacon was purchased.
-Distress Beacon cost increased to 20 resources.
-Distress Beacon now requires Phase Tech research to function.
-Distress Beacon has a cooldown of 45 seconds on each observatory.
-Observatory hitpoints increased by 500<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the general idea. It allows distressing to relocated bases, and it gives marines a new tactic.
Why do people have the impression that it would be impossible to implement? If it's programmed in with a good algorithm, mappers won't have to change their maps. It would just require a lot of work on the devs side. That's not to say this idea is a feature that must be implemented - a better argument against this idea is that it's kind of low priority. Nevertheless, it's plainly shortsighted to call it impossible.
It also won't be overpowered. To use it with a rush, it would require a lot of time and resources. That's already 2 variables that can be used to balance it. To you naysayers, you should be saying it would impractical to balance (and implement) at this time. Yet, I'd like to see new strategies introduced in a new major NS version (i.e. 4.0), where there's more time to balance.
However, I don't want the observatory to increase the marines overall mobility too much. Aliens should always have a distinctive advantage in mobility. Marine strength lies in their strong defense and range attacks. The PG is already overpowered with HA imo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Arms Lab hitpoints increased by 1000
-Marines who no longer have an Arms Lab because it was destroyed or recycled will lose all ammunition and armor upgrades, and they must be researched again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I agree that marines need some sort of tech achilles' heel similar to aliens, I think this is rather severe. Not only do they lose a lot of res, it would take too long to re-research. It would be far worse than losing a hive as an alien.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Ammuntion upgrade damage increases lowered to 25/50/75.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um...weapon upgrades are 10%/20%/30% right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Shotgun damage efficiency versus hives (not all structures - only hives) decreased to 50%.
-Heavy Machine Gun damage efficiency versus all structures - including hives - increased to 75%.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're tweaking the weapons the wrong way. That would make the HMG better than the shotgun in all cases.
Marine weapons should be diversified so that each weapon still has an important role even at late game. LMGs are cheap and effective against skulks. Shotguns need some weakness, but I think that weakness should be against fades, not structures - the shotgun's damage against structures allows marine rushes. HMGs should be effective against fades and onos but weaker against skulks and lerks (grenades and shotguns already counter lerks). Grenade launchers should counter lerks but not skulks (although skulks have no cost, it's simply not fun to keep on dying, waiting for res).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Fade armor decreased by 50.
-Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade.
-Fade now costs 60 resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are fine. They counter light armor marines, and heavy armor marines can ward them off. They cost enough so that marines can repel the one or two fades that the aliens can muster early game. I'm more concerned about the fade's weak acid rocket ability.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade.
-Lerk base and carapace armor increased by 15<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would just further enforce D-M-S. Weak early skulks should be addressed some other way.
Lerks are fine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Onos now costs 80 resources.
-Stomp range of stun capped at approximately 5 yards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If stomp range is decreased, then its duration should be slightly increased.
But with that in mind, there's still no need to increase observatory life, I think.
Not only would the skulk become monstrously tough after getting carapace, if this actually happened it would guarentee the d chamber's place for hive 1 always
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I don't want the observatory to increase the marines overall mobility too much. Aliens should always have a distinctive advantage in mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what an "anywhere on the map" observatory would do. Even if each obs built had to have phasetech upgraded, it would still be easy as hell to go somewhre, drop an obs in a non-conspicuous place, and wait for phasetech to upgrade.
To the poster above this one, they would not all be LA/LMG. They would be beaconed as they were in 3.0. The living marines are teleported to the location of the beacon, the dead ones are revived at the location of the beacon.
Now as far as the poster above, explain how this is "ridiculously overpowered," please. Before responding look at my registration date and consider how I went several months playing NS without registering. I have been playing NS for a very, very long time, and I am rank #3 on the server that I regularly play on, with regulars from top CAL clans. My credit is obviously being challenged here as you think "no offense" but my "ideas are dumb."
My validity shouldn't be the point though. As to the poster quoted, please explain to me how this "unbeatable shotgun beacon" would be tremendously overpowered when *gasp* you could do the EXACT same thing without my beacon system. Let me rewrite what you wrote this way to sum it up.
"All marines makes it into hive, or right outside, commander loads team up with shotguns, GG hive. Every time. At least with a phasegate, aliens can hear it pretty far away, and have time to get there and do something especially since one marine can get in at a time. Obviously phasegates are on the same wavelength as this new obs change would be, but the obs would be ridiculously overpowered, because it could call in EVERY marine at once, unlike a one at a time phasegate. "
the whole team arrives at once with a shotgun rush, is a simple shotgun rush overpowered? 20 res obs + 20 res beacon = four more shotguns. Why use the beacon to rush a hive when you can just walk in?
You guys keep thinking there is some abusive loophole in the changes to the observatory that I have proposed. There isn't. Dont even bother looking for one. It gives absolutely no distinct advantages over a phase gate even without a 30 second reuse timer. The beacon as I have proposed would allow marines to actually go on the offense. Currently marines cannot go offensive, as a single roaming onos or even lerk can kill a hive single handedly by picking off the turret factory and phase gate. Beacon changed as listed would allow a commander to beacon his troops quickly to neutralize a threat at a captured hive and then beacon them back to an offensive front. Like I said it would be a way to have quick mass troop movements.
Yes my Changelog is marine biased. Yes I play aliens 90% of the games I play. Yes I win 90% of the games I play. Do the math. Aliens are overpowered in thier current state.
Next problem is that HL doesn't know the difference between outside and inside, so you would be presuming what I am right? Build it near a window where there's a visible skybox with space, and you've got marine spawning outside the map.
Third one is marine getting stuck in walls. Obvious one.
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The changelog you have is <b>very</b> marine biased. Besides, Flayra makes the decisions, not you. I don't see how the changelog <b>has</b> to look like that.
And no aliens are not overpowered. Heck if you've played against marines that can aim at the hitbox more properly than you'd be in for mowing down. I play aliens and I find it is a 50/50 win ratio. Fades and Onos, or should I say, everything dies to concentrated fire. If you've been playing against marines that run around alone, I would see why they're already weak.
Everyone has pointed out why your changelog isn't the <i>must do</i> changelog. Let Flayra and the vets do the calculations <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Before responding look at my registration date and consider how I went several months playing NS without registering. I have been playing NS for a very, very long time, and I am rank #3 on the server that I regularly play on, with regulars from top CAL clans. My credit is obviously being challenged here as you think "no offense" but my "ideas are dumb."
My validity shouldn't be the point though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow.
How does playing a long time, and being ranked number 3 on some random server have to do with if your idea is dumb or not? Please enlighten me. Also, enlighten me how I am attacking your "credit".
Your validity has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever. If some random noob whos never played NS signed up and came to post in this thread had good points, his post would be just as valid as yours. Veteran, played a long time, whatever blah blah, doesnt matter. If Flayra himself came in here proposing some idea I thought was dumb, I'd tell him. I don't care if he coded the game or not. Dumb idea is a dumb idea, simple as that. I'm not telling him he is dumb, how in gods name did he manage to code this game, I'm telling him I think his idea is dumb, and I sure hope he wants to know what the people who play his game thinks,good or bad. I'm sorry your taking offense dude, I'm not saying YOU are dumb...
Ok, since you need an example, lets say the map is ns_caged, aliens hive is ventilation. You could drop your team shotguns, and have them run to either, purification area, and weld the door, go through processing and weld into vent, or go through shipping tunnels. Now, do you honestly think a whole marine team will make it to those places unnoticed? No, not likely.
The point of a shotgun rush is to surprise the aliens, and if they know its coming, they can take measures against it. Since you are running all the way there, they have plenty of time to prepare.
"the whole team arrives at once with a shotgun rush, is a simple shotgun rush overpowered?"
YES, it is when they instantaneously spawn from marine start to the hive across the map.......................
"Why use the beacon to rush a hive when you can just walk in?"
Because a shotgun rush involves the whole team, and if you had to run all the way there from marine start at the beginning of the game you will probably lose half if not all of your marines, or your shotgun rush will be bust because you made such a ruckus owning skulks on the way there.
So, the real question you should ask yourself is, Why walk in when you can beacon? An instantaneous spawning of the ENTIRE marine team, comm excluded, into the aliens hive. Theres NOTHING they could do to stop that. You can say they should prepare or whatever bs all you want, but this is just at the beginning of the game. Marines could do this at any time during the game. Whenever they want. As long as somebody can get in or near the hive, which happens ALL the time, they can do it. Unlike the phasegate that bottlenecks the marine reinforcments, they would all spawn at once, and shotguns + lmgs focus firing on the hive will kill it very quickly. More than likely so fast that no aliens have time to react before the ping of doom starts.
Seriously how do you _NOT_ see how people could use your idea?
Having to research ups again when you lose arms is entirely too nerfing of marines.
Making fade and onos cost a bit more, which would give rines a little more time early on, sounds good but is going to affect balance which is already swung towards rines. Onos increase good fade probably not. Fade health and armor were boosted for a reason.
Skulk boost way too much and as stated solidifies DMS which is bad.
Making the HMG the uber weapon again is a bad idea. I wouldnt mind tweaking the percentage up, but not at the same time taking down the shottie.
But that's just my .02. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Zues
what he said...
Now i dont play marines much, but i have played aliens lots this version. Also, it is my opinion you dont balance a game by nerfing one side, then nerfing the other, then nerfing the orginal side again... ect ect.
You buff up both teams to an equal level, and there are just some things for aliens that have to change:
-3rd hive abilities: there are so many good long threads on this, just search
-Blink: It has become a manual leap, in almost every aspect. Either give fade's the leap attack and buff the fade accordingly (like the devs would ever admit thats exactly what they're turning blink into... lol) or make Blink a real teleporting ability. Edit: This doesn't mean back to 1.04 blink, dispite it's obvious supiriority over the current blink.
-Leap: for some reason i feel that leap doesn't do the job for the 2nd hive ability for the skulk, it needs some change... haven't figured out exactly what yet.
-Some type of giveres: No wait... dont hit the reply button so fast to flame... The reasons you see little to NONE alien comebacks is because half the time they have res sitting in the bottom of their pool and cant do anything with it. I would make giveres hive dependant somehow... to the point where if the aliens have 3 hives... they can give res freely among each other, but limited at hives 1 and 2 somehow.
-Spike: needed... unless Acid rocket is for some reason moved down to 2nd hive, it is absolutely needed. the limited range on the shotgun is not even a factor if the aliens cant exploit it in some way shape or form. This would give good rines with shotguns something to fear. (Note: this is not an excuse for you to start up "story time" where you pwned 5 3/3 rines with shotguns)
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Sorry for not explaining myself further on my previous post, but here goes....
Assuming they eventually allow your beacon changes to happen(which would be a technical feat in itself):
- whats to stop rines from sneaking an obs onto the hive, beacon, then kill the hive. And that would only cost you as little as 30 res!
- Even if you allow a cooldown time for the beacon, whats to stop them from sneaking in 3 to 5 obs onto the hive...and do 3 to 5 beacons one after the other.
- It would also take away the main resposibilites of <b>phase gates!</b>.i.e. easy access to map locations. Which, if may also add...<b>movement chambers simply does not match</b>.
- Thing is, those beacon changes are just..<b>TOO DAMN POWERFUL</b>. You will have <b>THE WHOLE RINE TEAM</b> popping up <b>ALL OVER THE PLACE</b>, any time they want.
With those changes, you'd be more scared seeing an observitory then a turret factory.
On the observatory idea, I don't get why y'all are so riled up. If the marines had observatories and have researched distress beacon, couldn't they just *GASP* build a phase gate instead?! Heck the phase gate is more "abusable" then distressing.
If the obs is changed as suggested, these are the new/improved tactics I can see:
-recalling marine forces if they're trapped/doomed (in a way similar to warcraft 3's town portal)
-distress to relocated base
-really costly emergency phase gate (if PG goes down or some other emergency)
Still though, it's not a needed feature.
Well, I'm sorry to say, but you're supposed to lose those bases. If you haven't got anyone defending, guess what - you're attacking recklessly, rushing, and it means that you have to make sacrifices. Basic RTS strategy here. The <i>aliens</i>, not the marines, are supposed to be able to respond quickly to threats and move around the map speedily. You're blurring the line between the teams, which is something we don't need.
Being able to 'port your entire force in, armed with various weapons and a couple welders, makes retaking any secured hive... unlikely.
Anyway the res cost for the obs changes, would probably make it a one time shot at the beginning of the game. But if the commander wanted to fake the aliens out, he could play as usual, researching things here and there. Then do it to the aliens hive they start building or something. I mean I can see those kinds of lame commanders who drop commchairs on empty nodes near aliens starting hives, dropping obs all over the map in hidden off little places. If each obs had a cooldown then by the time he had circled the map beaconing marines in the first would be ready to start over again. Would be funny seeing aliens running frantically all over the map trying to find where you beaconed next. Obviously this would cost alot of res, but thats the point of the commander doing things as normal. He will probably have enough res to play around with them.
Give somebody something to exploit, and they'll do it every time until they either , get tired of it, or get banned from the server they play on. I mean if you could drop a TF on the aliens hive and telefrag it, people would do it all the time until it was fixed or they were banned from every server they played on.
IMO the observatory was much more useful for relocation in 2.xx. If you relocated to say, generator on ns_nothing, then if you wanted to send some marines over by powersilo quickly, you could have any dead marines beaconed into marine start. Now you can't do that anymore. Sure if you want your whole team at marine start now, dead and alive, then its ok. I mean I've always though obs that beaconed to any base would be cool and all, but there is just too much room for exploitation, even if the cost to do so was tremendous.
If wishes had wings, pigs would fly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Shotgun damage efficiency versus hives (not all structures - only hives) decreased to 50%.
-Heavy Machine Gun damage efficiency versus all structures - including hives - increased to 75%.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um... no. OC's are weak enough already, and if someone has res enough to fill the map with them, you have obviously lost ages ago and the aliens are just playing with you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Fade armor decreased by 50.
-Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, great; just after fade got the so-much-required boost. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Fade is now pretty well balanced, IMO, when it comes to HP and Armor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks need armor, true, but a skulk with 50 armor is rather ridicilous. 40 at max <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Fade now costs 60 resources.
-Onos now costs 80 resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade cost should stay at 50, since -frankly- onos isn't worth it. 1 HMG can flush 80 res down the drain in a matter of seconds. Onos should actually cost something like 60, to be worth it.
u want marines stronger cause aliens are too strong.. so in the next release maybe marines are too strong.. so get the aliens stronger then ? it's a rediculous circle, at the end all start with a nuclear warhead.. oh my..
I would say: just weaken the aliens.. simple as that
comparison:
NOW
comm researches up to phase tech
comm builds phase gate in base
before that or after that a marines builds PG near hive
HA/HMG/Shotgun or whatever rush which often failes cause not all marines use the PG(lacking coordination) and aliens crushing the phase gate
that'S a strong tactic, used VEEERY often (often see a comm NOT researching phase tech if possibe?), and it has a FAIR chance of success, also giving the aliens a chance to counter that cause the PG is the weak point AND not all marines come at once
WITH UR PROPOSAL
comm researches up to phase tech
comm only builds obs near hive (in hive ?)
HA/HMG/Shotgun or whatever rush which ALMOST EVERYTIME succeeds cause the aliens are just stunned about the attack.. no lack of coodination, not more res invested, and almost no time for aliens to counter.. ESPEACIALLY cause in the time after it's build there have to be MANY aliens to get that obs down in 2 seconds before the marines stand there..
good things:
aliens REALLY think about getting movement chamber first(although at the times phase tech is ready they should have second hive)
drawback: marines can't spawn back.. but really.. when using phase gates, how many rines use the PG to get back ??
(so in general not soo good)
bad thing:
aliens don't stand a chance defending the hive EVEN when fighting against newbie marines (imagine a 7vs7 server.. 7 marines rushing a hive at ONCE arg !)
ur argument that using 4 more shotties instead and walking to the hive is also overpowered is CRAP:
cause exactly THAT is the problem.. getting to it while gorges block the way with OCs
I totally agree when ur saying: we need something for the rines to spawn at another place when aliens attack base for 10 minutes and the game is already lost but noone F4s..
and I TOTALLY agree with ur analysis: aliens are too weak at the start, and to strong after building the 2nd hive..
but pleeease no "then we have to buff the marines !"
so in the end: it's TOO efective
imagine following scenario..
obs at base, obs near hive
first beacon..
hive rush
if hive doesnt go down in 15/20 seconds..
second beacon back to base
60 res lost (2*20 beacon, 20 for obs) but almost no casualties..
some kind of "invest 60 res NOW and u get a safe hive rush for FREE!"