The New Mines
Pithlit
Join Date: 2003-05-07 Member: 16120Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-05-07 Member: 16120Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">are they a waste?</div> Well, i think so!
Since you actually have to touch them to let them go of, they are kinda useless, now.
Back in 2.x me and my clan had grat strategies involving mines, shelding marines who covered a corridor to block the paths for aliens.
The mines alid in a half circle were a serious threat to every skulk who cam by.
The bets ways to get us out there was a gassing or spiking lerk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well with the new version i hardly see any alien getting killed with mines!
skulk can avoid them with jumping, lerks fly over, gorges are rarly killed by mines, since they arent killed with one hit and aren?t seen on the frontlines very often.
Fades have enough health to get a few mines and can still snack a rine and onos kills with mines are just a faded memory, i have hardly seen any (better i have seen none).
Even with RFK they are worthless in my opinion
you cant even guard you buildings with them!
We got two skulks who munched our ips whith 3 packs mines who covered them!
and now with only 4 per stack its even less...
well what have you experienced and do you have any ideas to change that?
Since you actually have to touch them to let them go of, they are kinda useless, now.
Back in 2.x me and my clan had grat strategies involving mines, shelding marines who covered a corridor to block the paths for aliens.
The mines alid in a half circle were a serious threat to every skulk who cam by.
The bets ways to get us out there was a gassing or spiking lerk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well with the new version i hardly see any alien getting killed with mines!
skulk can avoid them with jumping, lerks fly over, gorges are rarly killed by mines, since they arent killed with one hit and aren?t seen on the frontlines very often.
Fades have enough health to get a few mines and can still snack a rine and onos kills with mines are just a faded memory, i have hardly seen any (better i have seen none).
Even with RFK they are worthless in my opinion
you cant even guard you buildings with them!
We got two skulks who munched our ips whith 3 packs mines who covered them!
and now with only 4 per stack its even less...
well what have you experienced and do you have any ideas to change that?
Comments
youd have to get 3 res for each mine kill to make a 4 res profit but if 1 mine only goes for 1 res you make a 2 res profit, but most times you get 2 res per kill average which means you break even with yoru mines alot of the times.
mines are easily distroyed now. so placing mines is an incredible waste of money, because one gorge will waste your 20+ res investment in a secure base.
Mines should become stackable agian. i can place 4 separate mines for 120 damage each OR OR OR i can place 1 huge stacked mine that does 480 instant hit damage. That simple change would make mines much much more versitle, because even if you only got a 2 res profit from an onos youd lose the alein team 75 res.
In regular ns mines are good for somthing, but in combat they are very usless. Why would you want mines when you could gain that much damage with a single weapon upgrade which is much much much more versitile in every situation.
a solution to makeing mines more usefull in combat would be that once the mine you placed in combat explodes you get a new one in about 2 seconds. This would make mines usefull as an investment to get you exp.
another good idea is to make pressing use on a mine toggle it between 2 modes...
pressure and trip. One would be the mine we know now and the other would be the mine we used to know.
Its the same with grenades in combat. A hand grenade in combat is useless. 100 damage WTH are you thinking flay??? im gonna pay 1 point for somthing i can only use ONCE per life that only does 100 damage?!?!?!? i could use 10 bullet from a lmg to do that much damage!!
A way to fix that would be to have damage upgrades increse mine and grenade damage. for grenades 100 120 150 for mines 120 150 200. Mines are soo easy to kill that i belive they shoudl be atleast usfull as an investment for res or for exp.
But to use mines efficiently you should imagine how a careless skulk runs. Put them behind corners to spots where skulks run, but close enough so that they have no time to react even if the saw the mine (hope you understood). And also put mines around PGs, IPs and RTs. Especially mines put very close to an RT are pretty difficult to see if you're not careful.
Maybe welding mines (for a relatively long time) would double the damage and make the trigger range longer (and maybe even give them more hitpoints). Just my idea.
This is just for 'regular' or 'classic' or just 'the real' NS, Combat balace may go to **** if it goes after me!
So no combat issus, plz only suggestion to make mines better in ns.
I do´t think you money argument does count, since mines rarly kill aliens. a single fade with hive 2 (wich usually is up after 6 mins at last) can waste as many mines as he wants, even without regen (with regen he can do the same at the 4 minute mark <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit:
@Retales: yes, the detonation rage seems the only thing that could fix it. snce now you can just stand beside a mine and munc the building! even a whole stack does´t defend an ip you need al least, 6 mines!
EVERYTHING IN NS IS BASED ON COST EFFECTIVENESS!!!! if it isnt cost effective then it WILL NOT BE USED.
heres an example... if turrets did 0 damage and just beeped do you think they would be used? NO! when somone builds turrets they do so to protect buildings and to gaurd base they also build them so that if attacked they will gain enough res from kills that they paid themselves off.
IF somthing does not pay it self off in either gaining you res or costing the enemy res equal to the amount you spent on it then it is NOT cost effective, and therefore will not be used.
if an hmg could not gain the res to pay itself off before the marine dies then it will not be used.
if giving a marine heavy armor does not allow him to pay it off before dieing then it is not cost effective and WILL NOT be used.
are you getting it now?? its the basic foundation of ALL games that require you to spend money, or points, on something.
heavy armor jetpacks mines grenades buildings turrets are all "capital" you spend money on them hoping they will pay them selves off or further your ability to gain more resources. If somthing will not pay itsself off them it will not be used.
i hope giving multiple examples and restating the obvious several times will make you understand.
IF somthing does not pay it self off in either gaining you res or costing the enemy res equal to the amount you spent on it then it is NOT cost effective, and therefore will not be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true at all. Do you think elec TFs kill 15 aliens each? Does each individual turret pay off its cost in R4K? No, and the same goes for mines. They are not an offensive tool to bring in res; they are for defense, and the reason you use defensive structures/items is to protect more valuable buildings. Res payoff is not the only measurement of something's worth; are 3 shotguns a waste of res if they fail to take down any aliens but instead kill the hive? The objective of this game is to win, not have the biggest res pool in the end, and if a pack of mines defends the structures that contribute to this goal then it has paid itself off.
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read please.
You said that everything has to further your ability to earn resources, but that is a highly flawed argument. What if you send out a couple JPs/Shotties, they take out the hive and every single structure in the room but never help you construct a single node or kill a single alien? Were they a waste? What if the comm completely bankrupts the team in the last push that wins them the game? NS strategy just isn't that two-dimensional.
when i say that you use somthing only if it pays itself off or furthers your ability to gain resources this still holds true.
if res towers had 2 hp would they be used NO, because they would not yeild a profit before they died.
why do comms electrify res nodes? because it furthers the res nodes ability to pay itself off and/or yeild a profit.
if res nodes were not cost effective then their would be no res to spend on weapons, no weapons = death = game over.
sending 1 jet pack and 1 shottie to distroy the hive is very risky but if succesfull would yeild an imaginary 10000000000 res profit = game over = win.
its is that simple.
if the comm recycles things to buy weapons for a final push then he is gambling that the res he just gained from recycleing and spent on weapons have 3 outcomes.
cost effective and not costeffective.
1.if it was cost effective then he cost the enemy, or gained, more res than he spent therfore gaining an advantage
2. they both cost eachother the same amount of res neither one gained an advatage in the slightest
3.if it was not cost effective then he has lost more recources than he has gained, or cost the enemy.
Cost effectiveness is the basic foundation of counters. im sorry you have to be wrong.
you get it? Everything were points, or money, are aquired and spent goes back to cost effectiveness.
if i spend 480 gold on 4 footmen and they kill his 500 gold hero then i have aquired not only a 500 gold advantage but i also gained imaginary money for the time it takes him to retrain his hero.
in counter-strike if i spend 5000 on an awp and die to a pistol without killing anyone then buying that gun was not costeffective and i am at a $5000 disadvantage.
EVERYTHING IN NS IS BASED ON COST EFFECTIVENESS!!!! if it isnt cost effective then it WILL NOT BE USED.
[snip]
IF somthing does not pay it self off in either gaining you res or costing the enemy res equal to the amount you spent on it then it is NOT cost effective, and therefore will not be used.
if an hmg could not gain the res to pay itself off before the marine dies then it will not be used.
if giving a marine heavy armor does not allow him to pay it off before dieing then it is not cost effective and WILL NOT be used.
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Er... No.
I use turrets not because they gain me res to make the investment worthwhile, but because they prevent the EXPENSIVE buildings behind them from being munched on. I would use turrets up to and beyond the value of the buildings they protect.
If a HMGer is killed before he makes any kills, the HMG "will" be used. (It already has been.) Unfortunately the comm does not posses psychic powers, although this may be implemented in later versions. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ditto HA.
Mines rock. They are better than turrets early on, and can seriously hastle alien teams if you go flying in and mine spawn areas.
5 packs of mines on your ips and they still died? (Someone said it,)
quite likely the mines were ON the IPs, so did damge to them when they went off. Yes, it happens. Place mines on floor surounding buildings.
The new mines are still good, cost-effective or not. Even in CO they prevent early CC rushes with ease. I can usually level at least once on mine kills alone. (Mine 3rd upgrade, mine cc.)
Mines, useless indeed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for Classic NS, which was the main focus of this topic, I'd say mines were a fairly handy thing for covering enterances or vital buildings. That said, they're not the be-all and end-all. If they get a gorge to clear the mines then bravo to them for getting the little blighter to what supposedly would be a frontline position.
I personally see nothing wrong with the mine.
its is that simple. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please. You invented a completely arbitrary number to fill the hole in your argument. We're talking about res, actual resource tower res and not an imaginary scoring system conveniently also called "res." Resources are an extremely important tool to accomplish the game's end goal, but the fact that the actual objectives are not directly tied into res means there will always be more factors than that.
How about this; an Onos kills off more than his own value in HA/HMGs, but is eventually finished off by a simple LA. The marines are broke now and that Onos had 100 res built up, but they spend what little they have on some shotties and manage to take out a hive before the Onos can return. The marines clearly lost the res battle(actual res, as your original argument was based on) but they still came on top of the situation and turned around the game because of it.
You don't rely on mines to protect your buildings, no, you rely on your marines for that. The mines are there because JUST IN CASE the aliens do get past your marines, or you have no marines in your base, you wouldn't lose everything. Its only 10 res, a lot cheaper than an electrified tf or 3 turrets to defend base.
Yes this game does require skill which in turn directly relates to the need of intellegent commanders to give marine who will effectivly use the res to gain a profit for the comm.
This also directly relates to real life. Yeah i could spend 1 dollar on a lottery ticket and win 1,000,000 dollars, and then i could go burn it in a feild. Your agument makes this much sense = 0
yeah an onos:
cost 100 res
gains 120 res form kills
marines kill hive = 100000000 res for them
so onos was 120% effective yeilding a 20% profit
the marines lost about 120 res worth of equipment but gained 10000000 res.
they WIN. Winning the game = infinate res because no matter what wins it for you means that it was cost effective. whether it be by 20% or by 1000000% as long as that number is positive your at an advantage.
im the frikin patch adams of strategy. I have to pretend that i see the squirrels just so i can show you they dont exist.
^ that would make a real nice quote <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> my sig = ++ 4 teh win
Basicly he is saying you not gonna waste time/rez on anything that will not help you win.
if turrets didn't do anything cept look at it. and then a skulk could run by it, not get hurt at all. and kil your base. that turret wase useless
now in the real situtation. a turret costs 10 rez. it acts a a deturant of your other structers. put like 2 =6 turrets in one place, and skulks will not go near. (usualy)
so was 20 rez (maybe it was 30 with TF) worth spending to secure an area. maybe...
is 10 rez for mines that are barely able to fuction. he is saying no. thus since mines are worthless.
I think you got to caught up in hte rez part. of his statement. he just needed to reword it.
he makes a very good point.
cost of rez< or = to worth of object. youll get it.
if rez> or = to object worth you will prob not get it
another example. (extreme) would a curretnt turret be worth 50 rez to build. UNLIKELY
If they had turrets the same and only cost 1 rez
im sure you would see turret spams all over.
In other words
Mines are rarely worth the 10 rez to spend on them. THERE ARE certain time when they are very nice to have. but lately. no.
And thus, the troll was vanquished... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
... and the wise man said.
Thank-you for that refresher Ahnteis, people need to be re-mine-ded about what exactly the mine is used for. It is not an offensive weapon, but a defensive weapon. Lasers were not effect because aliens tripped them easier, they were effective because aliens DIDN'T trip them easier. Case in point: Alien sees red line coming from mine, alien thinks "Gee better not go in there or I'll get blown up", alien goes away and waits until he becomes fade to go past mines, marine base is untouched! However with the new mines: Alien does not see trip line, alien blows up himself and mine, mine is no longer there to deter other aliens from coming in thus, the comm must waste more res on repositioning the mine, or risk losing his base. I've been saying this the day Flay joined the words Natural and Selection into a game!!
To sum up: mines are NOT meant to blow up aliens, and should not be used as such except in rare cases (i.e. onos trap)
mines ARE used to deter aliens from tripping them on the pain of death. Thus a mine is more effective when NOT tripped than when exploded and ultimately, lost.
if it goes down quickly, I relocate quickly. by that time I have about 3-5 rez nodes and about 100 rez to spare so I build another ip in a large game, and armory, a obs, a TF, arms lab.
I put my IPs far as aI can from comm chair so I jump out and kill skulks/lerks/gorge/fades/onos. if need be.
If I notice a couple of skulk hit my base, then after we kill em, ill build two turrets at base.
if fades come. then I may drop a few mines.
but usualy an obs with becon works just fine. if they start to hit base hard, Ill becon, they run away, I cancle becon, they come back ill do it again.
you get it? Everything were points, or money, are aquired and spent goes back to cost effectiveness.
if i spend 480 gold on 4 footmen and they kill his 500 gold hero then i have aquired not only a 500 gold advantage but i also gained imaginary money for the time it takes him to retrain his hero.
in counter-strike if i spend 5000 on an awp and die to a pistol without killing anyone then buying that gun was not costeffective and i am at a $5000 disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go with the "you're wrong, I'm right." I see your point, I just don't like the fact that you refuse to listen to anyone else. Open your mind.
back on topic...
Mines are good. I don't know what you're talking about -- in 2.0 they did NOT have trip lasers. However, in 2.0 you could do nasty tricks like place 5 on top of each other, where upon a fade would trip over it and die. In 3.0, mines can be used for a variety of things, both defensively and offensively.
For example, drop 2 packs, and have your team spread them out around your buildings. A skulk can sneak through and hit your buildings still... but it's near impossible to engage a marine without hitting a mine. By the time fades come by, you should have PGs/OBS where you can use beacon or phase back to defend. One of my favorite strategies in a scrim is to have 1-2 people build base, drop mines, and leave. If need be, I'll pop out of the comm chair, dodge around, and chances are that skulk is gonna blow up.
Offensively, mines become really useful. I can't count how many times 1-2 packs around an offensive phase gate has saved a hive assault from going down. Also, they can be used to defend resource towers, spread out around important positions to aid your marines in combat, etc etc. Although my favorite has to be the "place 50 packs on the hive and laugh as you trip one off with friendly fire."
In conclusion, before you complain about something being useful, try it out some. I swear, every day someone on these forums complain about something or another being overpowered or useless before they've actually tried it.
p.s. before someone rebukes this post with "omgnub u obviously have never tried to use mines b4 omg" note that I've been comming scrims and pugs since 2.0, and have won and lost hundreds of games. no doubt there are comms more experienced then me, and if you are one of them, I'd love to hear your opinion.