Aristide Kidnapping

Melatonin · March 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">haitian coup</div> wondeing what everyone is thinking about recent events in Haiti after Aristide managed to get his hands on a cell phone and inform varius members of the US congress (and other world leaders) that he had not fled, and had infact been kidnapped by US marines.
<a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/01/1521216&mode=thread&tid=25' target='_blank'>story here</a>

a few questions to set the ball rolling
How do you guys feel about about the US admin after this information is out, pretty much all pretense of supporting democracies are out of the window with this one.

<a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/02/1616229' target='_blank'>interview with bodyguard</a>
bit more info here, interesting that he declines to answer alot of the questions relating to the US govt.'s involvement.

anyway.. thoughts?

Legionnaired · March 2004

I'll think about it when it shows up on CNN or the AP, not a radical leftist site, obviously heavily slanted against the US.

killswitch · March 2004

If you call 'kidnapping' landing in Haiti, and asking Aristede to leave on his own will, then he was most certainly kidnapped.
Apparatenly he left because he wanted to 'avoid further bloodshed', according to John Stewart, it was most likely his own blood to be shed.

FeydToBlack · March 2004

Actually, on Monday, CNN had Aristide on the phone and was talking with him about it.

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3524273.stm' target='_blank'>BBC</a>

<a href='http://us.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/01/aristide.claim/' target='_blank'>CNN</a>

<a href='http://us.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/01/cnna.aristide/' target='_blank'>CNN</a>

<a href='http://websearch.cnn.com/search/search?source=cnn&invocationType=search%2Ftop&sites=google&query=Aristide' target='_blank'>A whole slew of other sources</a>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>(CNN) -- Hundreds of U.S. Marines are in Haiti securing key points in the capital, Port-au-Prince, after President Jean-Bertrand Aristide resigned and fled the country.

CNN's Lou Dobbs spoke to Aristide by telephone for one of the former president's first interviews since landing in the Central African Republic.

DOBBS: Mr. Aristide, first, you're in good health, you're in appropriate accommodations?

ARISTIDE: Yes. But my mind is in Haiti, where they are killing people, burning houses ... And that's why I call it a real coup d'etat, a modern way to have modern kidnapping.

DOBBS: Mr. Aristide ... are you suggesting that you were then in point of fact taken by force by U.S. military?

ARISTIDE: Of course, from Saturday -- from Saturday night, the 28th ... I was told that ... I better leave. And under a kind of diplomatic cover, they talked to me. And military talked to me. American agents talked to me. Haitian agents talked to me. And I finally realized it was true, we were going to have bloodshed. And when I asked how many people may get killed, and they said thousands may get killed. So using that kind of force to lead a coup d'etat, it was clear, as I said.

DOBBS: You made then, if I hear you, Mr. Aristide, a difficult choice based on the assessment of those advisers around you, and including American advisers, it sounds like, for the public safety of those -- of your fellow citizens, is that correct?

ARISTIDE: What is very clear is the fact that we have military surrounding the airport, the palace, my house. In the streets, we had some military maybe from other countries, I don't know, but I know for sure there were a lot of the American militaries with Haitians, well-armed ... And they told me in a clear and blunt way that thousands of people will get killed once they start. So I had to do my best to avoid that bloodshed ... That's why I call it again and again a coup d'etat, a modern way to have modern kidnapping.

DOBBS: Mr. Aristide, having made that decision, and now in the Central African Republic, is there -- have you received the support of the United Nations, spokesmen -- the representatives of the French government in particular, the Canadian government talked with you and supported your decision to leave Haiti and offer further counsel?

ARISTIDE: Maybe if I add this point, people will understand ... I spent 20 hours in an American plane with military guys. And one ... baby, one year and a half old, whose father is an American agent, and the mother is Haitian. Not even this little baby has the right to get out ... when we had the first step -- the first stop. And when we have to go to the second one, they didn't want to tell me where they were going to meet with me. We didn't have one single phone call, no telephone was used, because they refused.

And this little baby spending 20 hours in an American plane, with American guys. Only 20 minutes before they landed here, they told me, finally, we were coming to land, on the French bases with military -- French military. And fortunately, we had five ministers from the government who greeted us in this very warm way. And we are grateful to them ...

DOBBS: I can only guess at the emotion that you must go through. The emotions in Haiti today from all quarters of Haitian society. Your family, Mr. Aristide, we understand that at least part of your family is in New York tonight, is that correct?

ARISTIDE: Yes. I don't know if the first lady, who is an American lady, is allowed to go to Miami to see her family. And I don't know if I am free to leave where I am to go to New York or elsewhere.

I have three more people with me. We are here after the terrible experience which we had in [an] American plane, in which [the] American military [were] not allowing us to have contact with our people, not allowing a baby one year and a half to get out from the plane when they stopped the first time, when they stopped the second time ... It is a tragedy. You need to understand that.

DOBBS: Indeed. Mr. Aristide, do you have, first, any desire to come to the United States, and secondly, what are your immediate plans?

ARISTIDE: If they allow me, I will be very delighted to go to the United States whenever it's necessary or possible, meet people, tell the truth. ... They want to create confusion. And I want to tell the truth, not confusion.

DOBBS: Mr. Aristide, we thank you very much for talking with us, and thank you again, sir.

ARISTIDE: Thank you.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Think what you will of them. They are his words.

Spooge · March 2004

I suppose we could have left him there to die. But I suppose Rangel and Waters would be whining about that too.

Handman · March 2004

Wow we gave him the choice, Stay and allow bloodshed or let us get you out. How is this kidnapping? We did not go in with tranq darts and take him against his will. Alls that happened was a communication black out, which was most likely used for their protection. The last thing you want is a someone shoting at the plane, because someone decided to make a call. Wow, we should have let him die.

Melatonin · March 2004

there are different ways to kidnap a man.

when the mob come round asking for protection money, its always so they can protect you from a 'third party'.
the marines didnt have to tranq the man, maybe just suggest they wouldnt protect him and his family otherwise, either way he was taken against his will in what he calls a coup d'etar.

why do you think the US would not allow a democratically elected man to stay in power (if the marines had shown up earlier?, if they had not demanded he leave? if the firm that protects Artistide had not been prevented from sending re-enforcements by the US govt. itself [huh what?])

Handman · March 2004

man you are really grasping at straws. So what you are saying is that if I went into witness protection, willingly, to testify against the mob; the FBI is kidnapping me. We did not hold a gun to his head, we simply told him the truth about what was going to happen. The rebels were going to attack the city if he didn't leave and they wanted his head.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>when the mob come round asking for protection money, its always so they can protect you from a 'third party'.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

This is extortion or blackmail, not kidnapping. If you dont pay me, we are going to beat you up. This is in no way what the US did.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>f the firm that protects Artistide had not been prevented from sending re-enforcements by the US govt. itself</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

At the point that they wanted to go in, the US wasn't letting any american flights in; why should they make an exception.

My point is he had the option to say no, the US offered a helping hand (which they did not have to do) and he grasped it. Had the US not take him out, more people would have died.

Teufel_Eldritch · March 2004

Consider the source. A ousted corrupt president angry with the US for not backing him. No axe to grind there. *rollseyes*

Melatonin · March 2004

heres an interesting transcript from a full interview with Aristide.

<a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/08/1529222&tid=25#transcript' target='_blank'>rush transcript</a>

the audio is also on the site is your too lazy to read <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> (although its kind of hard to hear in places).
ill try and get this rolling again.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My point is he had the option to say no, the US offered a helping hand (which they did not have to do) and he grasped it. Had the US not take him out, more people would have died.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

It seems in the final few steps of this 'process' he was decived into believing he was being taken to the press rather than out of the country.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No, I did not resign. I exchanged words through conversations, we exchanged notes. I gave a written note before I went to the press at the time. And instead of taking me where they said they were taking me in front of the Haitian press, the foreign press, to talk to the people, to explain what is going on, to call for peace. They used that note as a letter of resignation, and I say, they are lying.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
-Aristide.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Consider the source. A ousted corrupt president angry with the US for not backing him. No axe to grind there. *rollseyes* </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Lets get things straight here, were talking about a man who was democratically elected with a majority of 96%, and then re-elected with 98% the following term.
A man who tried to help the majority of the haitian people, rich and poor, rather than open up the country to global corporations looking for a cheap workforce.
in what way was he corrupt?

<a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/09/1518238' target='_blank'>Legal Request to Powell</a>
as an asided, a Haitian lawyer representing Aristide has requested that the US admin should acknowledge the crime commited, ,which was kidnapping of an internationally protected person.
I doubt the higher level admin will be worried at this, but we will see.

Handman · March 2004

Im more inclined to believe the body gaurds, then to believe the politician. here is an interview with one of the body gaurds.

<a href='http://www.jdnews.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=20776&Section=News' target='_blank'>Interview with a bodygaurd</a>

For those who are too lazy to click and read

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"We left with him (but) I won't talk about where we went," Refinger said Friday from his home in Jacksonville where he just returned. "We escorted him safely out.

"Everything was done with the full knowledge and cooperation of the president. There was no forcing the president to go anywhere. We protected our principal without a shot fired and he is safe."

Refinger works for Steele Foundation, a security firm based in San Francisco. The company has protection details all over the world and does industrial security and risk analysis, Refinger said.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Nuff said.

Melatonin · March 2004

Its not that I think that bodyguards account is inaccurate
but from what Aritide has been saying <b>himself</b>, He wasnt given full knowledge of what was going to happen.

Heres another question then.

Now that his leaving Haiti has been seen to have happened in a less than voulentary manner, and since he still sees himself as rightful president, what do you think should be done?
Whats the US official stance on this one? they were there to protect what? Haitians? Aristide? Democracy? Phillipe's accention?

Handman · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"Everything was done with the full knowledge and cooperation of the president"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The bodyguards have no reason to lie, but aristide has plenty(he was the one who lost power). Haiti has had aomething like 33 revolts in the last 100 years. We put aristide back into power once, I do not see the use of putting him back into power.

Melatonin · March 2004

resurected for an update.

<a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/25/1537236' target='_blank'>current news</a>

for those who have not been following recent events with Aristide, he has returned to the region (Jamaica), where he plans to stay for 'the indefinate future'.

Colendeezza Rice has been putting pressure on the Jamaican government to expell him (for reasons unknown? and with vauge threats of 'full force').

as for the situation in Haiti itself right now, the current imposed government is apparently carrying out summary executions of Aristide supporters (in the region of 50 a day).

Now, from where I stand that looks a bit bad.
The new government has also broken diplomatic ties to Jamaica and has suspended Haiti's involvement in CARICOM, the caribbean nations council.

Melatonin · April 2004

while I realise Im discussing this largely with myself now..
and while my sources have been 'shown to be leftist lies', or words to that effect..

various sources in the Dominican Republic are claiming the 'Haitian Rebels' led by Guy Philippe, were trained for up to two years, in the Dominican Republic, by US special forces.

<a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/07/1527256&mode=thread&tid=25' target='_blank'>click</a>

during this time, its reported, a number of attacks were conducted across the border, in Haiti, against the government of Aristede.

now, this certainly adds a new dimension to proceedings.
If this is true, the US played a significant role in the training, arming [20,000 misplaced rifels], and near enough creation of the so called 'Haitian rebels' they were seen to be 'protecting' Aristede from.

There is an interesting interview on todays broadcast with Luis Barrios, who talking in depth about the training in Dominican Republic.
Apparently, alot of the training was conducted by the IRI, but 200 US special forces were present on at least one occasion.

Aristide Kidnapping

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