<!--QuoteBegin-Vahn_Paktu+Mar 3 2004, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vahn_Paktu @ Mar 3 2004, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> r_speeds are mainly how much computer resources are being used. high r_speeds low fps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong.. but closer that that stout guys guess. R_speeds are <b>R</b>endering Speeds. the r_speed command will ususally tell you a number of things. One, which is the most obvious, is how fast it took to render the current frame. Next, it will tell you how many w_polys (or world polygons) are being rendered currently. Halflife and map compilers have a number of things written in to make sure that you never render the entire map at once, as that would pretty much kill any computer quite quickly. For example, if you are in a vent and there is a corner down about 10 to 20 feet away, HL won't render whats around that corner until you get close to it. The main problem with outdoors maps in HL is that they have no visblocking (visual blocking) As such HL renders almost everything since there really isn't anything to block you from seeing it. Some mappers choose to go around this by using a fog entity that will block your vision at a certain range, then set the view distace just slightly beyond where the fog cuts off. The third thing it will tell you is the e_poly count. e, standing for entity. e_polys can be pretty much any entity that requires rendering (windows you can see through, any model on the map and so on) Since HL renders entities differently than it renders the world polys, the limit on e_polys can often be quite a bit higher than on w_polys. For example, most computers will start to dip in preformance at 800 w_polys, yet the common base in NS will consist of a couple thosand e_polys.
It's how fast your "R"s travel over teh intarnet. Like when you hit reload. If the r_speed is too low, you'll only reload very slowly. But the R has to be slower than movement keys like W/S/A/D (w_speed, s_speed etc) otherwise you could reload faster than you could walk, which would mess up the game. This is what is meant by balance issues - Flayra spends millions of dollars a year getting an internet connection that balances the speed of the letters correctly. All hail Flayra!!!1 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMGz u r t3h dumbz0r! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just continue like this and I can ensure that you'll get banned. It happend to the others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok bud, might as well put the "Rent-A-Mod" tag in your sig. I'm sick of you warning people such and such, cut that crap out and let the moderators do their job.
And on a constructive note, I miss bast to and I really think they should fix that vent in MS, I mean you weld it, but the aliens can open it even though it's welded, if their just going to open wth was the point in making that weldable in the first place?
<!--QuoteBegin-JezPuh+Mar 4 2004, 03:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JezPuh @ Mar 4 2004, 03:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Agora is the best map imo, it has good atmosphere and plays good too.
Best map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. It really has no 'overall theme', it's sorta jumbled together, but there's just something about that map... it has personality, it has charm, it's.. homey...
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
Guys, instead of just saying that you don't like Bast, how about telling us what to fix, and how we can fix it? That's what we're interested in. "Bast sux omg" isn't very constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin-Insane+Mar 4 2004, 11:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Mar 4 2004, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, instead of just saying that you don't like Bast, how about telling us what to fix, and how we can fix it? That's what we're interested in. "Bast sux omg" isn't very constructive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was about to say that. People just complain but won't take 2 minutes to write what they think it would make the map more fun, or balanced, or whatever, sometimes it may seem obvious, but if noone takes the time let the mappers know...
That happens with ALL THE MAPS, not only remakes. So, please people, post on the remake thread to let us know what do you think it should change.
The post was about the OLD bast. Of course nobody can be against your bast remake, because we don't know it yet. Anyway, you know why bast isn't *loved*, it's always the same reasons; marine start & RTs access from it, resource consumption. Since you're remaking it rebalanced and optimized, we're all waiting for it. Don't understand "bast sux" as "your remake project sux tbh". Bast has a potential for being a good map (a NS-compliant atmosphere, an identity), now we believe in you. :)
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
We know you're talking about "old Bast", but it's "old Bast" that were supposed to be making better, so my comments really still stand.
So guys, here's your chance; what are the major problems with Bast, and how do you think these could be fixed? (Note: please keep it constructive when pointing out problems.)
Uh, I didn't play much on it lately, but here's what I'd say: - the marine start is annoying: the CC is hard to reach (bugging lift); it's kinda hard to reach RTs from it, either the double which mostly are a marine trap, or taking the "rotative thing" which isn't easy with aliens on the other side as well. Onoses can't escape easily, except by jumping if the large lift isn't raised; means you can easily block the onos by activating the lift and even the door below. This makes most pubs games as a marine BBQ for the kharaas, with aliens taking too much time in winning the game. - to me, some parts are useless, like the veeeeery long vents around refinery. It can be deleted without any problem, since the lift is doing the same job.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrPink+Mar 3 2004, 11:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrPink @ Mar 3 2004, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, but we'd have to balance it. Also, fix a few annoying things. Probably shouldn't name it bast because it wont be bast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhhhmmm... hera??? I don't know why they cut all the res from the map, the new version only has ELEVEN RT'S... </offtopic>
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Mar 4 2004, 01:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Mar 4 2004, 01:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Naxo+Mar 4 2004, 01:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Naxo @ Mar 4 2004, 01:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hard to explain why, but I don't like it. The marine-start is *errr*, it's mostly unbalanced as marine unless you reloc, the map in itself is making servers suffer endless pain while the CPU is crying and the pings are climbing himalaya. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.- The remake is trying to make it FUN and BALANCED (both for public and clan play), and that's why we want everyone to give their oppinions on what should be changed.
2.- The CPU-killing is because of the number of entities (500+), it can't be official again if we don't optimize the number of map-entities. The new limit is 275. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey Mendasp,
The problem is, to make Bast balanced & fun would mean basically trashing the map. Pretty much nothing in Bast worked out too well. The three hives for a start were all pretty awful.
Refinery - JP tastic, too big, too open. Marines found it hard to get in, but once in they basically had the hive forever.
Engine - Too hard to maneuveur, was the HA train hive of choice. Partially siegeable from MS.
Feedwater - Just, buh. Buh, buh buh. +1 yuck.
And finally, Marine Start. The wonders of that suicide hole. I could lament for days the wonderous revolving door, the way OC's would sprout on the lift, or the way it had no less than 5 different skulk perfect entrances. The CC, which skulks can camp in and actually eat 4-5 marines trying to wedge you out, all the while you get a free chow on the chair? But let's not forget the piece de resistance, the VENT. The evil, evil vent. Leave it open? Wheee, skulks, or worse, Fades come piling down it. Weld it shut? Ah, the wonders of spore spam through the gap. Choose the method of your death marines!
I'm sorry this is so negative towards the map, but A) I'm not a very good mapper or good at thinking of map ideas, so I don't know what to say to improve it, but I'd rather point out what I believe should be changed than say nothing, and B) It really ruined the mapcycle.
The layout overall for Bast was quite nice (I won't deny it was a pretty map), but I won't hold my breath for a good game on it.
Suggestion : Tram tunnel is way too open. A single marine with a pistol can lock it down from either end. It could do with some obstacles in it to break up the line of fire. Maybe have the tram itself wrecked in the middle, or just boxes.
The water-tunnel leading out of feedwater is almost useless. Remove it entirely, or convert it to a dry vent system, or perhaps have some air-pockets along the way so you don't take so much drowning-damage.
I might be wrong here and didn't read anything, but did the remakers ask permission from the original mapper to be allowed to do the remake? I thought he asked himself for the map to be removed seeing all the negative feedback and the yelling at him the poor guy got <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bast was my favorite map. Ahh, the memories of putting a wall of lame outside the revolving door, and gleefully waiting for a marine to come through... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As far as improvements go, I can't really think of much, seeing as it was my favorite. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I enjoyed playing it both as a marine and an alien.
1. I agree though that the long water tunnel was useless... Marines couldn't use it at all, and skulks could much more easily take another route.
2. Perhaps move engine room a tiny bit farther away from marine start to prevent sieging from base, and complicating the route to make the travel time take a little longer would be good. If aliens started in engine room they could rush their way to victory before the first portal was built, and conversely marines could HA train it to death.
3. Refinery is just too big. Dosen't fit the style of the game at all and makes it too hard to clear out an entrenched marine team.
4. Can someone tell me what the sparkly rotating lights were supposed to be in the feedwater hive?! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wasn't bast the one where you had to have a mandotry MS siege and a hive with three res nodes?
Yah that one had some serious balance issues.
The main problem was there wasn't an exit from spawn that didn't require marines to go through something, door, stairs, elevator, vent. This pretty much meant aliens could trap marines in spawn.
Then again I always relocated to either refinery or feedwater.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cereal_KillR+Mar 4 2004, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Mar 4 2004, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I might be wrong here and didn't read anything, but did the remakers ask permission from the original mapper to be allowed to do the remake? I thought he asked himself for the map to be removed seeing all the negative feedback and the yelling at him the poor guy got <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We've got his permission. It was taken because the source was lost and the number of entities was above the official limit, it was making servers lag. He left because he didn't have time anymore (mainly his son, I think), not because negative feedback.
You can read the FAQ of the remake on its thread. Link on my sig.
We are aware of the problems on the MS, I'm thinking of removing the revolving door, or making a second entrance (normal one) to Main Aft...
We also know about the lack of cover for aliens on tram tunnel, how big refinery is... etc. We just need ideas on how to fix those areas. We have our own ideas, but with more people... more ideas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Wrong.. but closer that that stout guys guess.
R_speeds are <b>R</b>endering Speeds. the r_speed command will ususally tell you a number of things. One, which is the most obvious, is how fast it took to render the current frame.
Next, it will tell you how many w_polys (or world polygons) are being rendered currently. Halflife and map compilers have a number of things written in to make sure that you never render the entire map at once, as that would pretty much kill any computer quite quickly. For example, if you are in a vent and there is a corner down about 10 to 20 feet away, HL won't render whats around that corner until you get close to it. The main problem with outdoors maps in HL is that they have no visblocking (visual blocking) As such HL renders almost everything since there really isn't anything to block you from seeing it. Some mappers choose to go around this by using a fog entity that will block your vision at a certain range, then set the view distace just slightly beyond where the fog cuts off.
The third thing it will tell you is the e_poly count. e, standing for entity. e_polys can be pretty much any entity that requires rendering (windows you can see through, any model on the map and so on) Since HL renders entities differently than it renders the world polys, the limit on e_polys can often be quite a bit higher than on w_polys. For example, most computers will start to dip in preformance at 800 w_polys, yet the common base in NS will consist of a couple thosand e_polys.
Best map.
yep
It's how fast your "R"s travel over teh intarnet. Like when you hit reload. If the r_speed is too low, you'll only reload very slowly. But the R has to be slower than movement keys like W/S/A/D (w_speed, s_speed etc) otherwise you could reload faster than you could walk, which would mess up the game. This is what is meant by balance issues - Flayra spends millions of dollars a year getting an internet connection that balances the speed of the letters correctly. All hail Flayra!!!1 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMGz u r t3h dumbz0r! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just continue like this and I can ensure that you'll get banned.
It happend to the others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok bud, might as well put the "Rent-A-Mod" tag in your sig. I'm sick of you warning people such and such, cut that crap out and let the moderators do their job.
And on a constructive note, I miss bast to and I really think they should fix that vent in MS, I mean you weld it, but the aliens can open it even though it's welded, if their just going to open wth was the point in making that weldable in the first place?
Best map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. It really has no 'overall theme', it's sorta jumbled together, but there's just something about that map... it has personality, it has charm, it's.. homey...
I was about to say that. People just complain but won't take 2 minutes to write what they think it would make the map more fun, or balanced, or whatever, sometimes it may seem obvious, but if noone takes the time let the mappers know...
That happens with ALL THE MAPS, not only remakes. So, please people, post on the remake thread to let us know what do you think it should change.
So guys, here's your chance; what are the major problems with Bast, and how do you think these could be fixed? (Note: please keep it constructive when pointing out problems.)
- the marine start is annoying: the CC is hard to reach (bugging lift); it's kinda hard to reach RTs from it, either the double which mostly are a marine trap, or taking the "rotative thing" which isn't easy with aliens on the other side as well. Onoses can't escape easily, except by jumping if the large lift isn't raised; means you can easily block the onos by activating the lift and even the door below. This makes most pubs games as a marine BBQ for the kharaas, with aliens taking too much time in winning the game.
- to me, some parts are useless, like the veeeeery long vents around refinery. It can be deleted without any problem, since the lift is doing the same job.
Uhhhmmm... hera??? I don't know why they cut all the res from the map, the new version only has ELEVEN RT'S...
</offtopic>
1.- The remake is trying to make it FUN and BALANCED (both for public and clan play), and that's why we want everyone to give their oppinions on what should be changed.
2.- The CPU-killing is because of the number of entities (500+), it can't be official again if we don't optimize the number of map-entities. The new limit is 275. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Mendasp,
The problem is, to make Bast balanced & fun would mean basically trashing the map. Pretty much nothing in Bast worked out too well. The three hives for a start were all pretty awful.
Refinery - JP tastic, too big, too open. Marines found it hard to get in, but once in they basically had the hive forever.
Engine - Too hard to maneuveur, was the HA train hive of choice. Partially siegeable from MS.
Feedwater - Just, buh. Buh, buh buh. +1 yuck.
And finally, Marine Start. The wonders of that suicide hole. I could lament for days the wonderous revolving door, the way OC's would sprout on the lift, or the way it had no less than 5 different skulk perfect entrances. The CC, which skulks can camp in and actually eat 4-5 marines trying to wedge you out, all the while you get a free chow on the chair? But let's not forget the piece de resistance, the VENT. The evil, evil vent. Leave it open? Wheee, skulks, or worse, Fades come piling down it. Weld it shut? Ah, the wonders of spore spam through the gap. Choose the method of your death marines!
I'm sorry this is so negative towards the map, but A) I'm not a very good mapper or good at thinking of map ideas, so I don't know what to say to improve it, but I'd rather point out what I believe should be changed than say nothing, and B) It really ruined the mapcycle.
The layout overall for Bast was quite nice (I won't deny it was a pretty map), but I won't hold my breath for a good game on it.
RIP Bast, may that incarnation of you stay there.
The water-tunnel leading out of feedwater is almost useless. Remove it entirely, or convert it to a dry vent system, or perhaps have some air-pockets along the way so you don't take so much drowning-damage.
As far as improvements go, I can't really think of much, seeing as it was my favorite. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I enjoyed playing it both as a marine and an alien.
1. I agree though that the long water tunnel was useless... Marines couldn't use it at all, and skulks could much more easily take another route.
2. Perhaps move engine room a tiny bit farther away from marine start to prevent sieging from base, and complicating the route to make the travel time take a little longer would be good. If aliens started in engine room they could rush their way to victory before the first portal was built, and conversely marines could HA train it to death.
3. Refinery is just too big. Dosen't fit the style of the game at all and makes it too hard to clear out an entrenched marine team.
4. Can someone tell me what the sparkly rotating lights were supposed to be in the feedwater hive?! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yah that one had some serious balance issues.
The main problem was there wasn't an exit from spawn that didn't require marines to go through something, door, stairs, elevator, vent. This pretty much meant aliens could trap marines in spawn.
Then again I always relocated to either refinery or feedwater.
We've got his permission. It was taken because the source was lost and the number of entities was above the official limit, it was making servers lag. He left because he didn't have time anymore (mainly his son, I think), not because negative feedback.
You can read the FAQ of the remake on its thread. Link on my sig.
We are aware of the problems on the MS, I'm thinking of removing the revolving door, or making a second entrance (normal one) to Main Aft...
We also know about the lack of cover for aliens on tram tunnel, how big refinery is... etc. We just need ideas on how to fix those areas. We have our own ideas, but with more people... more ideas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->