Shuffle The Onos And Fade's Abilities

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">its to fit their roles better.</div> Simply put, if the onos is the one who should be taking damage for the team, then why is metabolism a fade ability? Why does the fade, a unit that can 'fly' to any hive in a matter of seconds need a quick heal/adren ability? With this in mind, it seems like its appropriate to shuffle their abilities around to make them work better. I propose something like this:

Fade:
1-swipe -same
2-old blink (named teleport) - should give fade good hit and run'
3-acid rocket - i imagine upping its damage to something useful is only natural
4-current blink - allows players to pwn like they do now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Onos:
1-gore- same
2-devour/stomp - i say stomp more...devour feels like a stronger gore, nothing more
3-metabolism - both current version or the 'superman'-meta that was in the alphas seem appropriate (superman as in take damage => energy...not the buggy one)
4-charge - OMG UP TEH D4M4G3!!1

Feel freel to comment, flame, or make better arrangements. The basic idea is, meta is sooo an onos ability. It may actually make onos require a miniscule amount of skill, as opposed to none (like now).

FCC · March 2004

I think giving the Fade two blinks is pretty silly; they replaced the old blink with the new one because the old blink had problems with getting players stuck. Making the new, and I feel the better blink, a hive three ability would seriously hinder the usefulness of Fades.

Devour is not a stronger gore; in fact, there is almost no corelation between a devour and a gore. Devour might be useless against light marines, but it works wonders against heavy armor ie. stomp, devour, stomp, runaway. With the decrease in the stun time for stomp, and your idea of taking away devour, it would only make heavies even more powerful.

I think the charge does a good amount of damage. Only problem is that it almost never connects with what you are aiming for.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

I know two blinks is rediculous, but the good thing about old blink is that it didnt give the fade uber manuverability. No matter how good you were, you were restricted to straight lines, which usually means you use it to come in and get out. The current blink, however, is a completely different animal. Right now, it makes the fade THE single most manuverable unit in any fps. What this means is that the fade would be a pure hit and run at hive 1, it can soften stuff at hive 2 (by now, shock trooper), and it will be a blurring mass of pwn at 3. Of course, the blinks arent whats most important, I really pulled the old blink out to fill a gap. However, imho, it does fit quite well.

Devour...you are sorta right. Thats why I was unsure. With stomp, and preferrably some friendlies nearby, Im not sure the swift elimination of ONE HA is worth a whole weapon slot.

I made this suggestion based on these three assumption, feel free to rip these apart as well:
-fades are supposed to serve as a hit and run shock trooper (as little sense as that makes)
-onos are meant to soak up damage so the rest of the team can get it and cause some
-the game should tilt to the alien's favour should they aquire all three hives. Getting all that territory should be rewarded with something.

Zek · March 2004

I agree about old blink being brought back, but it wouldn't work without another HP improvement. Fades were much more tankish in 1.04, that's why the old blink worked. Metabolize is also a much more useful ability than you give it credit for; it works perfectly with the Fade's hit and run because it allow them to hit much more frequently. And two blinks? Why? I'd rather their abilities be a little more diverse. Have you considered the oft-repeated Paralyze suggestion?

Onos metabolize would do a lot to lessen the regen dependancy(though the old one could be useful too to close the distance, depending on the duration), but at what cost? Stomp and especially Devour are both crucial elements of the Onos' HA countering ability. Getting rid of stomp MIGHT work if Onoses were given considerably faster base speed, but Devour is much too important.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

Alright. personally, Ive really never used devour much. Running in, wrecking havoc and leaving served me well enough. In that case, how about replacing charge with meta? Charge in its current form is basically worthless. Ive yet to see a charge kill in this beta.

Fade. Yea, thinking of it as two blinks sounds redundant, but if you think about it, they serve completely different roles. The first is to get in and out quick, and the second is for extreme manuverability in battle. Both can be used to great effects by a good fader, a combination of them may be ...err...even better. Also remember, since new-blink is on 4th slot, you dont always see it. Having a less effective blink earlier on would make em aliens work for a good blink, while not completely crippling the fade.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Have you considered the oft-repeated Paralyze suggestion?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I believe i read of it...is it the swipe with the stun effect? How would this fit the fade better than what i propose?

Zek · March 2004

No, the idea of giving Fades the Onos' paralyze ability from 1.04. It's basically a parasite that stuns marines if you recall(in 1.04 it still allowed them to shoot, whether or not that should stay I don't know). It's a JP counter, it improves their hit-and-run and it's a good support role to boot. I think it would work well in slot 3, preferably combined with the old blink.

KaiserRoll · March 2004

I like the current fade abilities. I've just recently come to appreciate how useful metabolize is. Acid rocket needs to be like it used to though.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

Metabolize is useful, yes, I appreciate it as much as you guys. But does it fit the fade? Read what I said before. The fade needs near 0 time to get from hive to battlefield, while the onos needs minutes to do the same. It would serve the onos better as well as fit its role better than if its with the fade.

Zek, Ive always imagined the onos' paralyze ability is short-ranged. Now I know better <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />. Now, if we have stomp, web, AND paralyze...is that not even more redundant than my double blink? (not to mention more annoying for the 'rines <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />)

KaiserRoll · March 2004

It fits perfectly. Fade goes in, does damage, goes out and recoups. Repeat. Two differnt blinks is useless.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

Right. Is it necessary to have meta for this system to work? Remember, the point is not the two blinks. The point here is to give the onos meta.

Buggy · March 2004

The only slot Meta could fill in, would be in slot 4: Charge. You simply need Gore/Devour/Stomp to fill your role as onos, and I dont think Metabolize as onos would be worth it on Slot4 as you have then already won the game pretty much ...

I like the idea, but I dont see how it could ever fit in with the current onos and its abilities.

Forlorn · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 6 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Metabolize is useful, yes, I appreciate it as much as you guys. But does it fit the fade? Read what I said before. The fade needs near 0 time to get from hive to battlefield, while the onos needs minutes to do the same. It would serve the onos better as well as fit its role better than if its with the fade.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You would think that since meta makes you heal faster it would naturally fit the onos and not the fade as the fade can quickly retreat to a nearby hive.

What meta really helps with now is that it gives <b>energy</b>. For a fade who is constantly blinking/swiping, this is the biggest bonus of all. It allows the fade to get back into action quicker as well, and having meta on the fade makes it possible for Sensory/Movement combo's.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

Since you said Sensory/Movement combos, that means movement chambers are drop-able. Having gorges make movement clusters just outside the battle field can bring the fades back in battle sooner...if the team decides to invest in it. Even if they dont do that, movements are generally around hives, if the fade retreats there for healing, his energy would also be filled up quite quickly.

The onos is the tank of this game, it needs to be able to soak up damage without having to run all the way back to the hive.

Buggy: We didnt have Devour or Stomp back before 2.0, and the Onos was considered much stronger back then. How then, are they necessary?

oOgA · March 2004

imo, i felt teh onos at 2.0 was much stronger. with teh devour/stomp ability..

Droggog · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 7 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We didnt have Devour or Stomp back before 2.0, and the Onos was considered much stronger back then.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Old hitboxes <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

About the original idea.. i don't agree with it, no offense here, just saying my opinion. If there one weapon that doesnt fit its lifeform, for me that would be the lerk's primal scream (bring back spikes!) 1.04 lerk for president <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' />

Wasian · March 2004

Metabolize giving energy is a great thing and actually allows for diversity in the fade. I never get adren any more because you don't need it with meta, which allows for a more attack oriented celerity/silence approach. Acid rocket is currently like a toy, I never get it in combat and I just mess with the marines with it in classic. It's more like throwing water balloons than an actual attack.

The onos is ok how it is with gore/devour/stomp. Devour is almost as important to the onos as gore is, especially in classic. If you can devour an HA/HMG, that's a significant chunk of res you just ate. Charge on the other hand, needs help. It needs to do mass damage to buildings if it's to be of any use. Right now in classic I use charge to get from point a to point b, but it's such a waste of energy to attack a building with it. It needs to do massive seige damage to buildings or be replaced with something more usefull.

menohack · March 2004

Well, the problem with the onos's charge is that it doesnt seem to have an affect. You just run really fast and bump into sumpthing and wait there while it gets hurt. Here's a good idea :

Make Charge animated so that the onos thrashes his head from side to side, doing damage to the side he thrashes to. This would give a level of skill required to do good concentrated damage, but would help at leveling a base. Also, make it hit marines out of the way and send them about 5-10 feet to the side. It would also be cool if it could move structures, then it could clear a path and make the strategic locations of certain buildings useless. I think it should do about 120 dmg to players (about 2 hits to kill light) and double (240) to structures. This would probably completely fix the problem of long games when marines are hiding in their base.

Also, it would be good if leap knocked players back or possible stunned them if it was a direct hit, but make sure it doesnt move them so far as to giving them an advantage in distance to shoot the skulk.

Another thing is that the Onos has so much health and armor now, it takes quite a while for them to regenerate, making them either get regen or run to a hive/dc. This could be a good thing, or it could be bad, but dont give onos metabolize. Onos should be a basic hit-and-run unit when there are only 1-2 hives, but with 3, give it a stronge charge and it will end the game.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

So now, even the mighty Onos is also a hit and run unit?! All it is good for now is chomping down an HA and running back to the hive? How is it that the Kharaa's level 5, a 75 res investment be more dependent on the hive than the fade? Am I wrong about the onos' role as the alien's tank (in RPG terms, thats the dude that soaks damage)?

And I still dont see why the adren'd meta is so integral to the fade game all of a sudden. Sure its useful, but the fade had pwned without it (before meta also accelerated energy regen). Doesnt the fade come back into action quick enough without the help of meta?

Droggog: new hitbox was implemented in 3.0, the devour/stomp combo in 2.0.

Menohack, stay on track. If you have something else to say, make a thread on it.

Just tell me that the whole point of getting Onos is devouring an HA and running for your life, then I'll drop this whole thing. If thats true, its really really sad what a once fearsome beast has become.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

bah. So everyone is cool with having ALL aliens be hit and run. Next person to complain about lacking diverse strategies gets a prompt stab in the eye.

Dantemss · March 2004

Well, I have made some suggestions about giving the onos metabolize, but I was talking about nerfing the dc's and giving the aliens other alternatives (well, I tried to make the alien team less dependant on dc's, but people complained that I was nerfing the alien team, so....)

If you want to see them, go to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=64046' target='_blank'>this thread</a>.

Kwil · March 2004

I like the idea. Onos level 4 has metabolize.. thus helping to end the drawn out marine turtle at the end, as he can heal up quicker. No stomp.

But instead of a second blink, give the fade the ability to "sticky" marines at level three.. kind of a limited splash-damage web. Arcs like a bilebomb shot, explodes with a very short radius when it hits, any marine caught in the splash gets slowed like they just hit a web.

Demented · March 2004

Wouldn't the new blink replace the old blink, since both allow you to get from Point A to Point B in 1< seconds? New Blink merely confers the ability to maneuver.

Metabolize gives onos better survivability, which is a good idea considering that fact that it costs a bomb. Nonetheless, why would you remove either stomp or devour? Both are essential to any onos. Without either of them, the onos simply won't be worth the 75 res.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Demented @ Mar 14 2004, 01:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Wouldn't the new blink replace the old blink, since both allow you to get from Point A to Point B in 1< seconds? New Blink merely confers the ability to maneuver.

Metabolize gives onos better survivability, which is a good idea considering that fact that it costs a bomb. Nonetheless, why would you remove either stomp or devour? Both are essential to any onos. Without either of them, the onos simply won't be worth the 75 res.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Yes, new blink essentially replaces old blink. The idea mainly is that the fade would have a semi gimped blink when the aliens have a low hive count. Not only that, the old blink still beats the new one in two things, travelling extreme distances (one end of ref hive in bast to the other) and it gets you outta the battle right away if necessary. No blowing up to mined exits. But in the end, yes, I believe there is better replacements than sticking in the old blink. Perhaps some sorta stunning ability if we take out the onos' stomp.

I actually see all three of onos' abilites to be disposable (all except gore). Devour is basically a one hit kill weapon, that unfortunately, encourages the expensive onos to run away from the battlefield after doing its deed. Stomp can be replaced by some sort of fade stun attack, should it be replaced by meta. And charge is also completely useless except for escaping the battlefield. Its previous role as the building breaker has been eclipsed by the gore's 2x against buildings damage. So instead of charging back to hive to get healed, we can have an onos meta abit outside the fight, and come right back in while meta'ing to soak even more damage.

Both devour and charge promote a cowardly onos, which should not be happening to a 75 res behemoth.

Dantemss · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Mar 14 2004, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Both devour and charge promote a cowardly onos, which should not be happening to a 75 res behemoth.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Agreed, but only against lone rines. If the entire team is behind you, you have to run away.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dantemss @ Mar 16 2004, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If the entire team is behind you, you have to run away.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
so you run...possibly while meta'ing. And charge if we didnt take that away.

what are you trying to say?

Gamma_Spud · March 2004

I posted this in a different topic as well, but here's the ability shuffling that should be done:

Lerk Abilities:
1. Bite
2. Spikes
3. Umbra
4. Spores

- Like the original build. Spores would probably have to be pumped up quite a bit in this instance. And then...

Fade Abilities:
1. Swipe
2. Blink
3. Acid Rocket
4. Primal Scream

- This would keep Primal Scream in the game (as a level 4 ability still), make Acid Rocket more useful (because it would be 2nd hive), and get rid of the (IMO) overpowered blink + metabolize. My main concern for this would be that the Lerk would lose some of its "support class" feel by losing Primal Scream.

Licho · March 2004

This would work only if spores damage is seriously increased or affects HA HP too (ignoring armor)..

I agree with original posts, fade blink is insane.. fade is very crappy alien, dies quickly, but with blink you can own tons of light marines and win the game.. Without blink fade would be dead meat.. dont know how to solve it.. :-)
Revert to old hitboxes for fade and onos? :-)

demonx · March 2004

In my opinion, if Onos had meta then you might as well just put admin_godmode 1 on for them... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (demonx5584 @ Mar 22 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In my opinion, if Onos had meta then you might as well just put admin_godmode 1 on for them... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
1) numbers can be tweaked.
2) Onos should be semi god mode anyway. Remember however, the onos cannot attack while meta'ing

demonx · March 2004

Good points monkey, but I like the onos' the way they are now. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

eaglec · March 2004

You're right about the aliens needing a rework but I think you went about the thread the wrong way. Rather tan shuffle the known weapons around until you have created a niche alien consider how the fade and onos should appear in game and how they should play?

<b>The skulk</b>, is the grunt. Favours sneak attacks and pack hunting. Currently it fits this role rather well
<b>The Gorge</b>, the sapper of the crew, building construction and destruction are its specialities. I'd like to see a slightly tougher hide on this unit but then again no real problems.
<b>The Lerk</b>, agile arial support. Both a powerful dogfighter and an essential support unit. Currently it works well
<b>The Fade</b>, gurrilla warfare hit and run. This type of attack relies on ambush, kill and escape. A fade should not be effective for a head on attack with multiple targets.
<b>the Onos</b>, the tank. Should have no ranged attacks and no insta-kills, charge should do horrendous ammounts of damage and the thing should also be capable of soaking huge ammounts while being relatively ineffective against troops due to its slow speed it should also be devistating against bases, installations, and anything that doesn't run fast enough.

The only real problems here are the onos and fade. I've previously gone on at great length at how reworking the fades blink can acheive what is required of him. The onos I have not given a huge ammount of thought until recent weeks.

Basically both the awp/devour and the stomp spoil the fun in the game. Charge is also currently 90% useless especially as a hive 3 weapon sooo

1. Charge (probably as it currently is)
2. Gore (180 damage as now)
3. Headbut - (disarms the marine 50% chance and does 70 damage - counter to ha/hmg).
4. Gloop - sprays the marine with a disabling gloop, similar to webs but also eats at armour.

What fills slot 3 and 4 that fits with this profile? Devour is not required with webs and teamwork heavy trains can be stopped especially with the new tank onos providing a moving roadblock. I would expect a 1 hive onos of the 'tank' variety to be able to take 3 hmg clips without healing. Hive 2 onos would prevent a serious problem for the marines but the slow movement rate would at least make the onos a vunrable target.

ok, so the gloop and headbut ideas are a little weak but the emphesis here is on creating the class to an ideal. Not fitting the creation to a class.

Shuffle The Onos And Fade's Abilities

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