Well, it's being improved and altered all the time, so it certainly is not final. I think we should have it in final by about v5. (ns3 v5)
However, you can never balance it perfectly to everyone's needs or desires. A change may satisfy 3 ppl, but it could just as easily upset 300. Take the new ns_hera for a perfect example.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
IT is a beta b/c Flayra uses the actual terms <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Most mods out there never leave beta. NS has left beta 2 times now (1.0 and 2.0)
There are still changes that Flayra wants to make (I think) for this curent build, and they are decently large changes (including some maps still have to be fixed b/c they have some glitches that cause horible FPS drops in specific locations).
Basicaly, once Flayra/Max are hapy with 3.0 as an actual game it will be released as 3.0 (unless they do some scary over hauls and end up with 4.0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
Things That were atleast wanted to be included at some points (DO NOT QUOTE ME, THINGS CHANGE): 1) NS as an offical Steam Game (aka patches will be released via Steam) 2) Still more balancing/tweaking for fun (aka balancing out fun vs balance between the teams) 3) There are still ALOT of bugs (some of them sortra serious), if you look at the bug report forum you will see a thread about HOW to report bugs, in there is a link to the bug database, you can feel free to poke around and see just what is in store for us still <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think NS should be released as an official Steam game now. It's not as if updates are frequent as they are, so the reason why it isn't there today (that Valve want to control when it is updated) is sort of redundant.
<!--QuoteBegin-BigBull+Mar 6 2004, 11:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigBull @ Mar 6 2004, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Still waiting on Custom icons to enabled also. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> they goona let player have there own custom icon <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballisto+Mar 6 2004, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Mar 6 2004, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just what the title says: Why is ns 3.0 still called a "beta"? There are as many bugs now as there were in 2.0, and I'd say balance is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I could be wrong here, as I know very little about the dev process, but from what I do understand, beta means "finished to the point of usability, but still needs major testing to determine whether any changes are needed, and to suss out any undetected errors." Something goes gold when it's at that stage where it's not going to be changed anymore beyond a simple bug patch.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Mar 6 2004, 10:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Mar 6 2004, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Basicaly, once Flayra/Max are hapy with 3.0 as an actual game it will be released as 3.0 (unless they do some scary over hauls and end up with 4.0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, considering NS's history.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballisto+Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just cause something keeps changing doesn't mean it's a beta. Is world of warcraft gonna be a beta just because they add new stuff? No!
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I know nothing about World of Warcraft, but it sounds to me like that's not beta. There's a difference between expanding on a complete program, and modifying an incomplete one.
The terms Beta and Release are very subjective, and depend on the developer. The NS Dev team could very easily say the current version is a Release, and just do it as NS 3.0 Then any subsequent changes would increase the version number, small changes meriting 3.0.1, or 3.1 or similar, large changes perhaps pushing it to 4.0 Keeping it in Beta is mearly a developer decision, basicly saying "We don't think the game is finished/polished enough yet"
A "beta" version of a product refers to the no public release of it; such as for internal testing by the developers to test each build, or a group of selected testers to test the product.
CS popularized "beta" as an actual release "CS 5.0 Beta" and many mod makers stuck with it. Beacuse of which, some call what would be a "beta" an "alpha" for an internal release. Such as "TO 1.3.1 Alpha"
In pure releasing reality, NS was out of beta at 1.0. This release is NOT a beta because it is released to the general public.
However, as with CS using beta with all releases, beta has come to stand for "a non produced mod". "CS 1.0" should of really been "CS 9.0" or some high number, seeing as that is the 9th time it has undergone major changes.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
umm, actualy, you can have an open beta test of sometihng.
You can also have a closed beta, you can also have an in house beta.
Beta actualy means that it is not finished and there are still major changes planed for it.
Just b/c sometihng has been released to the general public does NOT mean that it iis out of Beta.
NS actualy uses the terms properly (one of the few that does)
1.0 WAS NOT a beta, it was a gold release (all patches made to 1.0 were bug patches, and a few balance patches)
2.0 was aslo a final release (It was a working product, there were no gaping problems like there are in 3.0 beta)
3.0 Beta is a nearly finished beta, but still a beta (again, jsut take a look at the bug DB and you will see just what there still is to be done).
As for why there have not been many patches as of late? Flayra took a 2 wekk vaction (first one since he realy started working on NS if I remember corectly)
<!--QuoteBegin-xqnine+Mar 6 2004, 04:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xqnine @ Mar 6 2004, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> world of warcraft is in BETA right now (www.blizzard.com) and <b>it is a MMORPG they going to get monthly patches becuse that is the point. DUH!</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you. Now I don't have to say that.
beta was what we constie members were playing before it was made public. people complain about bugs NOW? hah.
if you ask me, its 3.0 BETA because its
a) not an 'official' game on Steam b) Flyra is a **** :-p c) and most importantly, the RAVE room was only RECENTLY brought back into play (with ns_nancy's return) and I mean come on. how can you call ANYTHING final if you JUST brought back THE rave room?
sure, there's lots of improvements to be made, but just like CS, it takes time, and lotsa effort. unfortunately... CS still sucks. haha. I give mad props to Flayra and the whole ns team, they've done a kick-**** job. let's jsut give 'em some more time, and cut them some slack. in the mean time, go back to blasting those 900 HP onos.
I'm kinda confused about what it means to be official on steam. Basically it means we get constant updates on the specified game whenever we log onto steam right? What else is so "official" about it?
It means the game will be moved from 3rd party to the normal games group in steam. Which makes it easier for everyone to dl ns through steam if they dont already have it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballisto+Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just cause something keeps changing doesn't mean it's a beta. Is world of warcraft gonna be a beta just because they add new stuff? No!
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> AFAIK that's exactly what a beta is...
A public release to test the current software situation, and to make changes as necessary.
As opposed to Alpha, which is a non-public Beta.
I suppose Gamma would be the final release. : <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta</a> has the worst defintion of Beta in terms of computing ever. "Computer Science. A beta version. "
Wow. How helpful.
ooooo it get's better: <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta%20version' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta%20version</a>
If I remember correctly, the difference between alpha and beta is that a beta version is playable and already has some of the important features and alpha probably won't even run because off all the bugs, so there's not a whole lot of testing to do, just a lot of coding <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> See the Doom alpha for example: 1 small room with test textures, no weapons, no enemies. and it crashes a lot o_O a beta version can also be non-public btw..
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballisto+Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just cause something keeps changing doesn't mean it's a beta. Is world of warcraft gonna be a beta just because they add new stuff? No!
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I would like to point out that Warcraft III patches arent sent to you in beta form. They test every change they implant first, and only as a small crowd. Once all those changes have been approved and balanced, its released as a new build. The patch just upgrades the current build.
NS is an open beta, so we all get to play it. Once its been balanced, features added, and bugs fixed, it will be released. Then the next build will be worked on (after several patches have been released, I'm sure) that includes all the new and cool stuff, to profect NS even more to what Flayra wants it to look like.
<!--QuoteBegin-BigBull+Mar 6 2004, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigBull @ Mar 6 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, Each server will get to assign ONE custom icon on thier server.
maybe for donators or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ah i see
<!--QuoteBegin-lagger+Mar 7 2004, 03:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Mar 7 2004, 03:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It means the game will be moved from 3rd party to the normal games group in steam. Which makes it easier for everyone to dl ns through steam if they dont already have it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> i thought all those games in normal group are only for valve games. and other mods that are not own by valve goes to the 3rd party group.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
NS will not be owned by valve.
I also don't think that CS or DoD are 'owned' by valve. Valve is simply the distributor for them.
bvut yes, at the end I will no longer have to put down the long (and actualy very simple if people folowed them) directions for installing the Beta ffor Steam. Instead I will say "double click on the name Natural-Selection in your games tab" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That is another thing that says NS is Beta, it has no distribution meathod yet (well not a good one)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballisto+Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Mar 6 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just cause something keeps changing doesn't mean it's a beta. Is world of warcraft gonna be a beta just because they add new stuff? No! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You realize that you just compared an FPS mod to some crappy MMO thats not even out yet... Right?
Comments
However, you can never balance it perfectly to everyone's needs or desires. A change may satisfy 3 ppl, but it could just as easily upset 300. Take the new ns_hera for a perfect example.
Most mods out there never leave beta. NS has left beta 2 times now (1.0 and 2.0)
There are still changes that Flayra wants to make (I think) for this curent build, and they are decently large changes (including some maps still have to be fixed b/c they have some glitches that cause horible FPS drops in specific locations).
Basicaly, once Flayra/Max are hapy with 3.0 as an actual game it will be released as 3.0 (unless they do some scary over hauls and end up with 4.0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
Things That were atleast wanted to be included at some points (DO NOT QUOTE ME, THINGS CHANGE):
1) NS as an offical Steam Game (aka patches will be released via Steam)
2) Still more balancing/tweaking for fun (aka balancing out fun vs balance between the teams)
3) There are still ALOT of bugs (some of them sortra serious), if you look at the bug report forum you will see a thread about HOW to report bugs, in there is a link to the bug database, you can feel free to poke around and see just what is in store for us still <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS.
they goona let player have there own custom icon <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Each server will get to assign ONE custom icon on thier server.
maybe for donators or something.
I could be wrong here, as I know very little about the dev process, but from what I do understand, beta means "finished to the point of usability, but still needs major testing to determine whether any changes are needed, and to suss out any undetected errors." Something goes gold when it's at that stage where it's not going to be changed anymore beyond a simple bug patch.
Well, considering NS's history.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know nothing about World of Warcraft, but it sounds to me like that's not beta. There's a difference between expanding on a complete program, and modifying an incomplete one.
CS popularized "beta" as an actual release "CS 5.0 Beta" and many mod makers stuck with it. Beacuse of which, some call what would be a "beta" an "alpha" for an internal release. Such as "TO 1.3.1 Alpha"
In pure releasing reality, NS was out of beta at 1.0. This release is NOT a beta because it is released to the general public.
However, as with CS using beta with all releases, beta has come to stand for "a non produced mod". "CS 1.0" should of really been "CS 9.0" or some high number, seeing as that is the 9th time it has undergone major changes.
Thats how I see it anyway.
You can also have a closed beta, you can also have an in house beta.
Beta actualy means that it is not finished and there are still major changes planed for it.
Just b/c sometihng has been released to the general public does NOT mean that it iis out of Beta.
NS actualy uses the terms properly (one of the few that does)
1.0 WAS NOT a beta, it was a gold release (all patches made to 1.0 were bug patches, and a few balance patches)
2.0 was aslo a final release (It was a working product, there were no gaping problems like there are in 3.0 beta)
3.0 Beta is a nearly finished beta, but still a beta (again, jsut take a look at the bug DB and you will see just what there still is to be done).
As for why there have not been many patches as of late? Flayra took a 2 wekk vaction (first one since he realy started working on NS if I remember corectly)
Thank you. Now I don't have to say that.
beta was what we constie members were playing before it was made public. people complain about bugs NOW? hah.
if you ask me, its 3.0 BETA because its
a) not an 'official' game on Steam
b) Flyra is a **** :-p
c) and most importantly, the RAVE room was only RECENTLY brought back into play (with ns_nancy's return) and I mean come on. how can you call ANYTHING final if you JUST brought back THE rave room?
sure, there's lots of improvements to be made, but just like CS, it takes time, and lotsa effort. unfortunately... CS still sucks. haha. I give mad props to Flayra and the whole ns team, they've done a kick-**** job. let's jsut give 'em some more time, and cut them some slack. in the mean time, go back to blasting those 900 HP onos.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK that's exactly what a beta is...
A public release to test the current software situation, and to make changes as necessary.
As opposed to Alpha, which is a non-public Beta.
I suppose Gamma would be the final release. : <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta</a> has the worst defintion of Beta in terms of computing ever.
"Computer Science. A beta version. "
Wow. How helpful.
ooooo it get's better:
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta%20version' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta%20version</a>
See the Doom alpha for example: 1 small room with test textures, no weapons, no enemies. and it crashes a lot o_O
a beta version can also be non-public btw..
But meh, whatever, flayras the man, it's his choice.
I would like ns to be official steam though cause it ROXORS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I would like to point out that Warcraft III patches arent sent to you in beta form. They test every change they implant first, and only as a small crowd. Once all those changes have been approved and balanced, its released as a new build. The patch just upgrades the current build.
NS is an open beta, so we all get to play it. Once its been balanced, features added, and bugs fixed, it will be released. Then the next build will be worked on (after several patches have been released, I'm sure) that includes all the new and cool stuff, to profect NS even more to what Flayra wants it to look like.
Each server will get to assign ONE custom icon on thier server.
maybe for donators or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah i see
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> i thought all those games in normal group are only for valve games. and other mods that are not own by valve goes to the 3rd party group.
I also don't think that CS or DoD are 'owned' by valve. Valve is simply the distributor for them.
bvut yes, at the end I will no longer have to put down the long (and actualy very simple if people folowed them) directions for installing the Beta ffor Steam. Instead I will say "double click on the name Natural-Selection in your games tab" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That is another thing that says NS is Beta, it has no distribution meathod yet (well not a good one)
oh:
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta%20test' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beta%20test</a>
Though NS will not have a 'comercial' release', It will have an 'offical release'.
Basicaly, its called a Beta b/c Flayra takes pride in his work and will not release an unfinished product.
You realize that you just compared an FPS mod to some crappy MMO thats not even out yet... Right?