Abolish The Hive System
Firewater
Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">For more tactical/strategic play read on</div> The alien hive system is what currently restricts a boatload of strategy and tactics that could be developed to make the game more dynamic. The problem lies within technological freedom, the marines are just restricted by res, where as the aliens need one of two locations, and the Res to expand their tech. The system I propose seems very radical I understand, but I feel that if this new system is in place, then the game can become the true FPS/RTS as it is intended.
Here we go:
Marines have structures to perform certain tasks (i.e. Arms Lab, Armory, and Observatory) Aliens have this too (Defense, Movement and Sensory chambers), but they are restricted 1 type of chamber per hive, where as the marines can freely tech whatever they want provided they have the resources for it.
I suggest a new chamber the "Evolution Chamber" (I know its a starcraft rip off, but a better name can replace that I am sure). The evolution chamber acts as the "hive" but can be placed any where on the map, just like any of the upgrade chambers. This E Chamber would give the abilities that the next hive would (spawning faster, new "weapons" for the aliens, unlocking another use of an upgrade chamber), but would be able to be dropped anywhere, giving the aliens the tech freedom that the marines have. The aliens would not be restricted by location anymore because of the freedom that this new chamber would bring. Not only that, It would also unlock the Defense-Movement-Sensory cliche that I know a lot of people complain about, because the upgrade chamber would have no hive to bind too, hence the freedom of choosing a variety of upgrade chambers exists. The only thing is though you can only choose 1 Upgrade at the beginning (the hive would provide the upgrade) and 2 at the first E chamber, and 3 at the third. This would NOT allow the aliens to mix match different levels of upgrades.
I.E. my team has one hive we have both Defense and Sensory chambers down (Both L3). I choose carapace, and setup an ambush with people that choose cloaking (just cloaking). I bait marines to come in after me and the cloakers then engage from behind.
Also by breaking the D-M-S system, it forces marines to stay sharp, and think of new ways to counter what they might potentially encounter. It forces more offensive behavior, rather than just sitting back and denying hives and teching up.
This would allow for more mid-late game conflicts as well, with only having to defend one location key location instead of 2 or 3, the aliens will not be as spread out, and bigger, more tactical conflicts can exist. New combinations on both sides will develop which lead to more counters, and counters to those counters and so on. The freedom allows people to think more, and develop more strategy and tactics.
By allowing the aliens to have freedom of their tech tree, it forces both sides not only to out skill one another, but to out THINK, one another. If this happens then the game will become the true FPS/RTS taht the Natural Selection is designed to be.
Please bare in mind this is VERY VERY basic, and not even half of what I want to do with this idea.
Here we go:
Marines have structures to perform certain tasks (i.e. Arms Lab, Armory, and Observatory) Aliens have this too (Defense, Movement and Sensory chambers), but they are restricted 1 type of chamber per hive, where as the marines can freely tech whatever they want provided they have the resources for it.
I suggest a new chamber the "Evolution Chamber" (I know its a starcraft rip off, but a better name can replace that I am sure). The evolution chamber acts as the "hive" but can be placed any where on the map, just like any of the upgrade chambers. This E Chamber would give the abilities that the next hive would (spawning faster, new "weapons" for the aliens, unlocking another use of an upgrade chamber), but would be able to be dropped anywhere, giving the aliens the tech freedom that the marines have. The aliens would not be restricted by location anymore because of the freedom that this new chamber would bring. Not only that, It would also unlock the Defense-Movement-Sensory cliche that I know a lot of people complain about, because the upgrade chamber would have no hive to bind too, hence the freedom of choosing a variety of upgrade chambers exists. The only thing is though you can only choose 1 Upgrade at the beginning (the hive would provide the upgrade) and 2 at the first E chamber, and 3 at the third. This would NOT allow the aliens to mix match different levels of upgrades.
I.E. my team has one hive we have both Defense and Sensory chambers down (Both L3). I choose carapace, and setup an ambush with people that choose cloaking (just cloaking). I bait marines to come in after me and the cloakers then engage from behind.
Also by breaking the D-M-S system, it forces marines to stay sharp, and think of new ways to counter what they might potentially encounter. It forces more offensive behavior, rather than just sitting back and denying hives and teching up.
This would allow for more mid-late game conflicts as well, with only having to defend one location key location instead of 2 or 3, the aliens will not be as spread out, and bigger, more tactical conflicts can exist. New combinations on both sides will develop which lead to more counters, and counters to those counters and so on. The freedom allows people to think more, and develop more strategy and tactics.
By allowing the aliens to have freedom of their tech tree, it forces both sides not only to out skill one another, but to out THINK, one another. If this happens then the game will become the true FPS/RTS taht the Natural Selection is designed to be.
Please bare in mind this is VERY VERY basic, and not even half of what I want to do with this idea.
Comments
why would we need hives then?
hives are areas of special importance where fights take place
if you would make them useless nobody would secure hives for example
and voilá , we have a decrease in strategic interaction instead of increase
i think the current system which ties 1 type of chamber to a hive is good because you have to plan ahead, you have to adjust your tactics to the type of chamber, even as marine
Infact, I'm surprised the hives are still the primary concern... maybe there's some sekrat reason for flayra to require 3 hives, instead of 1 hive and 2 greater chambers(or whatever.)..
EDIT: uh, surprise, that's the point. Hives are too restricted, while marines aren't.
EDIT: With firewaters suggestion the E chambers would be very much like the armory. Something wrong there? Then the marines can go for the E chamber(or the hive, to stop aliens from spawning), and the aliens can go for the armory(or comm chair, to stop marines from expanding).
EDIT2: Firewater, there would still be the main hive, yes? If it gets killed, there would be no ping of death, and any of the still living aliens can go gorge and put it back up, right?
But honestly, how many people in pubs do that? And even if you take out the advanced armory, they may still have a proto, HA/Shottie, and JP/shottie, are still very valuable assests to have. Where as a 1 hive onos is borderline useless.
However, this would make all the ns_ maps made so far obsolete, and change the way maps are layed out. So, it won't ever happen.
I thought that too, but marines have 3 structure counters already and could get through most, if not any, alien structure blockades rather easily. If they had the upper hand, which they should.
But a radius where you can't put another E chamber in might work-
1 E chamber over here, no more E chambers anywhere inside the radius of the E chamber. So put it anywhere outside.
It might also be fitting to have this radius on the hive.
It's far too easy to abuse something like this. All aliens would need to do is OC farm one base and then build up their 'E' chambers. Makes it too smilar to marines, and also doesn't take into account the fact there are many locations that are inaccessable to marines where you could 'hide' such a chamber. Many maps would likely have to be redesigned for this to be viable.
There is also the aspect that since hive locations would no longer be required, that marines would not bother securing them and instead spend MORE time getting nodes and attacking the main hive.
Interesting concept, but I think abolishing hives is a bit too radical a suggestion.
Regards,
Savant
The problem really is that I doubt marines could stand up to aliens if this were the case. Sensory would be a very powerful first choice, since it would hide e-chambers from view, and give many res for kill early on.
The E-chambers should provide another spawn point as well, providing even more diversity to game play. Since this is a very large game play change, current balance cant, and shouldnt, influence the evolution of this idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is also the aspect that since hive locations would no longer be required, that marines would not bother securing them and instead spend MORE time getting nodes and attacking the main hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this a bad thing? It's subjective.
1. Build a siege farm
2. Ping
3. Profit!!
Old school Gloom players know all about this. Placing all your spawn points in one place makes them easy to defend, but weak against a single, concentrated attack. Placing your spawn points all over the map means you can play musical spawn points, but each spawn area is easy to take out.
This is not an improvment to game play, it is simply a compleatly DIFFERENT style of play.
If one is better/worse is truely subjective.
aleins are supposed to be highly adaptable solo killers..... and marines are supposed to be liner tech team orianted....
lol we the EXACT OPISITE!!! lol
Also, a good way to keep the e chamber from being "hidden in a secret location" would just make it bigger. For example, have the e-chamber 4 times the size of a regular chamber, that way you can't go hide it in a verticle vent, or something like that.
As well, another idea might be having the first e-chamber needed to be built in a certain radius of the hive, and the second e chamber in a certain radius of the second chamber or hive? to still give a limit on where you can place it, without letting the aliens build them where-ever.
I think this will incorperate a certain element on strategy, which i think the aliens are currently lacking at the moment.. (the only real strategy the aliens have right now is what to choose,hmmm, defense, sensory, or movement. The marines can still switch strategies if the com notices sensory first or something, but the aliens are stuck with it untill they can get another hive...)
Ick.
Part of what makes Classic so interesting is that almost any hallway on any map can turn into the focal point of a battle. Courtesy of phase gates and the 3-hive system, the strategically interesting space on any given map is huge. This makes for a lot of variation from game to game, even with the same teams on the same map.
Maybe if you made it so that MCs would teleport players to the farthest EC from the MC. That way MCs still retain some purpose, and ECs could be used as a forward base.
Please keep posting ideas, the more buzz this gets the better chance that this could be implemented, and tested.
The problem really is that I doubt marines could stand up to aliens if this were the case. Sensory would be a very powerful first choice, since it would hide e-chambers from view, and give many res for kill early on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also put a lot of thought to this, and if the E chamber system were implemented, then Sensory would have to go under some changes:
Sensory Chambers would not cloak any aliens or any other structure, other than the sens chamber its self.
As a trade off, the self-cloaking sensory chambers gives scent of fear for the room that it is in.
With this system cloaking and focus would be way too powerful, with the sensory changes, an alien player would have to choose one over the other.
A) Make E-chambers bigger than normal chambers (so unable to stuff in tiny corners)
B) Give them some readily identifiable sound, like phase gates or siege cannons.
Thus, a cloaked E-chamber isn't impossible to find, and may be able to be detected through walls like PG's are now. THis would give marines an idea of where to drop a ping.
Please do not follow his example, if you don't like it, just tell me why.
First of all, firewater's idea at the moment is terrible. Admit it. It's too radical - too abusable - too much of everything. Everyone has pointed out the holes in it. <b>But... does that mean it's a bad idea? No.</b> It takes a lot of intellectual daring to cross the lines like this, and I commend firewater on doing so.
Second, if you're going to post some stupid one liner like fluffy, **** off. This has the potential to be "the next big thing" in NS, IF we all help contribute and mold this idea into something suitable for testing. In other words, "no, this idea sucks" is not enough. Post why it sucks, and more importantly, how it could improve.
Finally, by some amazing coinkydinky, I posted something very similar to this idea a few months back on my old sn. You can find it here: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45468&hl=evolution+chambers' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...lution+chambers</a>
This is what I wrote (for the lazy ones):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To many people, the problem with 2.0 is that aliens can obtain advanced units much too quickly. Now, let's put this in perspective. Aliens fear heavy armor just as marines fear onos and fades, so why doesn't heavy armor ever turn out to be the game-ender an onos or skilled fade is (at least, in most situations)? The answer is, of course, it takes too long to obtain it. By the time marines have managed to purchase a decent amount of fully equipped HA, the aliens will have at least 1 or two onos possibly with lerk support. This, coupled with a few skulks running around the "Death Squad's" legs is enough to destroy any HA train.
There are two reasons why aliens can obtain top tier units so quickly.
1.) Their economic advantage. Due to their high mobility, it is relatively easy for aliens to take and hold resource nodes.
2.) Lack of tech tree. There's nothing stopping them from evolving so fast. While the marines have to upgrade their armory (3 minutes + 50 res), obtain a proto lab (40 res), and finally, upgrade HA (50 res + 2 or so minutes), not to mention other miscellaneous expenses, all aliens have to do is sit in a corner for a few minutes and wait for their 100 res. Should one person rack up enough skulk kills to go fade or onos, no matter how many resource towers the aliens have, he will be able to. Depending on the situation, this might easily turn the game around.
My solution addresses reason #2.
I propose that aliens should also be forced to climb a tech ladder in the form of "evolution chambers." Each evo chamber can cost 30 or so res, and each additional one should allow aliens to evolve to a higher tier race. The first evo chamber would allow lerks, the second fades, and the third onos.
With some tweaking (build time/build cost etc), evo chambers will hopefully stop those res hoggers from going onos in 10 minutes and quickly putting an end to marine expansion. Anyway, feel free to comment/bash/thank/worship . That's all!
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A lot of what I wrote doesn't apply anymore - this was posted I think during the very first 2.0 release (good days). Also, the game was heavily alien stacked back then (marines won little more then 10% of the time). My idea was to help slow down aliens, but I think it can be modified to add variety.