<!--QuoteBegin-Moquiao+Mar 12 2004, 12:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moquiao @ Mar 12 2004, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> life.
conmen.. dont rob you of your life. they rob you off your money. the kind of conmen we are on about.. only go for high risk targets. this means lots fo money. if the person is that loaded.. then yeah its wrong to take theyre money... but it isnt life ending. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> O I see. Thanks for making it clear. A meticulously planned rape is fine, because I havn't killed anyone, but murder is wrong, no matter how clever the guy who did it was, because someone got killed. Right, I understand.
conmen.. dont rob you of your life. they rob you off your money. the kind of conmen we are on about.. only go for high risk targets. this means lots fo money. if the person is that loaded.. then yeah its wrong to take theyre money... but it isnt life ending. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> O I see. Thanks for making it clear. A meticulously planned rape is fine, because I havn't killed anyone, but murder is wrong, no matter how clever the guy who did it was, because someone got killed. Right, I understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you are taking every word i say very literally...
a rapist steals somebodys life too in a sense if you want to get technical with the amount of heartache and mental trauma.. let alone physical..
but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life...
you are taking my every word very literally
planning a rape doesnt take 'skill' it takes a twisted person.
indeed.. some are well thought out.. im not saying for even a second i agree with it or anything like that it is horrific.
as far as crimes go, conning is nothing imo... just as some people would regard smoking weed as nothing.. to ME smoking weed should get u locked up...
but we all have our own reasons and beliefs, i just wanted your take on things.. not a debate on morals..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a rapist steals somebodys life too in a sense if you want to get technical with the amount of heartache and mental trauma.. let alone physical..
but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're weighing and contrasting felonies here.. Can you say that since manslaughter is less severe than 1st degree murder that manslaughter is to be admired? That's horribly flawed logic.
If a robber steals an old lady's purse as opposed to a conman tricking the old lady to give her purse to the conman.. is the end result any different? In the end, a conman is just a deceiving thief. Nothing more.
If a rapist can, in essence, steal the life of the victim.... Then a conman can as well. Do not underestimate the financial damage caused by fraud. Being the victim of it can all but ruin your life.
I find it pathetic that you're trying to defend conmen. Its sickening really. They do not deserve to be defended. Just because they can do something clever is no reason to excuse their illegal and immoral actions. People do not deserve to be con'd. End of story.
This is not a scale of severity anyways. What they do is wrong and should not be defended in the least. Go somewhere else if you're going to continue defending conmen... This forum is for intelligent discussion and you sir are not contributing.
I find it intersting how everyone here just point fingers and say stuff like "muderers, conmen, rapists are bad, bad people and should be taken out and shot", yet no one wants to talk about why they do the things they do. Why did this man murder a whole family? Was it because he didn't dress like everyone else in highschool and people bullied/rejected him? How about that woman who conned a bunch of people of their life savings? Did she have a cash-strapped childhood?
It's easy to stand there and be all saintly, but are we really as innocent as we pretend we are? What if you're one of the kids who bullied the man in highschool? Or you're one of the people who urged your congressman to vote against the anti-poverty bill because it costs too much?
I believe that whenever a crime has been commited, society is just as guilty as those who commit the crime itself. But, we can't really punish people for indifference or selfishness, can we?
<!--QuoteBegin-vP-|Pikey+Mar 12 2004, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (vP-|Pikey @ Mar 12 2004, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it intersting how everyone here just point fingers and say stuff like "muderers, conmen, rapists are bad, bad people and should be taken out and shot", yet no one wants to talk about why they do the things they do. Why did this man murder a whole family? Was it because he didn't dress like everyone else in highschool and people bullied/rejected him? How about that woman who conned a bunch of people of their life savings? Did she have a cash-strapped childhood?
It's easy to stand there and be all saintly, but are we really as innocent as we pretend we are? What if you're one of the kids who bullied the man in highschool? Or you're one of the people who urged your congressman to vote against the anti-poverty bill because it costs too much?
I believe that whenever a crime has been commited, society is just as guilty as those who commit the crime itself. But, we can't really punish people for indifference or selfishness, can we? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why can be determined and argued about all we want after we get help for such people or remove them from society so that they cannot cause any more harm... to themselves and especially to others.
Even then I think you're trying to make excuses for their actions. Sure, we can blame society all we want... But the fact remains that usually the vast majority of the fault lies with the individual. Sure, they may have been dealt some bad cards, but that does not mean that had to break the law. I was bullied and teased in school, but I took it all and am stronger because of it.
We do not need to continue giving people ways to blame others for their actions. Just like gun manufacturers or fast food eating establishments being blamed for the actions of others. Accept responsibility for your own actions. Don't blame society. We all know that no society is perfect. Some people will always be worse off than others, but just because you are worse off does not mean you should resort to crime. Just because someone is worse off does not give you an excuse. It is the individual's responsibility.
No one is being saintly here. The majority of people here are simply stating that those who break the law should face the consequences of their actions regardless of how clever those actions were.
<!--QuoteBegin-Moquiao+Mar 12 2004, 03:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moquiao @ Mar 12 2004, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you are taking every word i say very literally...
a rapist steals somebodys life too in a sense if you want to get technical with the amount of heartache and mental trauma.. let alone physical..
but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life...
you are taking my every word very literally
planning a rape doesnt take 'skill' it takes a twisted person.
indeed.. some are well thought out.. im not saying for even a second i agree with it or anything like that it is horrific.
as far as crimes go, conning is nothing imo... just as some people would regard smoking weed as nothing.. to ME smoking weed should get u locked up...
but we all have our own reasons and beliefs, i just wanted your take on things.. not a debate on morals.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I am, but only becuase, on the internet, all I know about you is what I read in your posts, I have no way of knowing wheter you are being sarcastic, if you are using a figure of speech. I cannot tell from your body language or your tone of voice, so the only ting a I can do is to go on what you post.
I gave you my take on conmen, and this started the whole debate. If you cannot have a discussion in the discussion forum, whats the point?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why did this man murder a whole family? Was it because he didn't dress like everyone else in highschool and people bullied/rejected him? How about that woman who conned a bunch of people of their life savings? Did she have a cash-strapped childhood? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They did the crime, they do the time. The circumstances are (almost) irrelevant. I say almost, becasue they should be, but do get considered.
I believe othell summed it up later:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Accept responsibility for your own actions. Don't blame society [or circumstances].<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had a bad day at work. In divorce court, my wife got my two kids, and now I can only see them with visitation rights once a week. I invested my money in stocks which have plummeted.
I see my wife on the road up ahead. My fists clench with rage of the things she has done to me. <i>It's your fault!</i> I accelerate the gas pedal only to slam into my unsuspecting wife and mow her down like grass.
Not but an hour later, I'm crying like a baby realizing the stupid thing that I have done. <i>I blame society! It's their fault I killed my wife! They should suffer the consequences, not me!</i>
You believe this man? I don't. Okay, maybe he had a bad day, but people have bad days. Certainly not everyone in his shoes would have done the same. Being a conman is 10 times worse, because you have nothing to blame it on. You can't say you did it out of rage, or because your mom beat you as a kid. You con people out of their money for the purposes of taking what other people have for your own enjoyment. If you don't think this is a crime worth punishing, then I know a bridge called Brooklyn that's for sale.
<!--QuoteBegin-Moquiao+Mar 12 2004, 03:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moquiao @ Mar 12 2004, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If rapists take a life, so does a conman taking away millions from you. Money is, no matter what, one of the basics in a capitalistic society. That can be good or bad, take your pick, but whatever you think about it, you need money to get something. When someone takes away your money, they take away your rights.
Just because they're skilled, they're still taking away peoples rights.
<!--QuoteBegin-vP-|Pikey+Mar 12 2004, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (vP-|Pikey @ Mar 12 2004, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe that whenever a crime has been commited, society is just as guilty as those who commit the crime itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sheesh, why do I have to quote myself? I'm not saying that the person who commits the crime isn't guilty and/or responsible am I? I'm merely questioning why we have to wait for the crime to happen before we do anything. When it does, we dont' blame ourselves for not preventing it, instead we just punish the person who did it and wait for the next person who commits the same crime and punish THEM.
Say you did run over your wife and kids. Why did you do it? Why did your wife divorce you in the first place? The average joe who goes to divorce court won't go and commit murder. Clearly, there're other issues other than your wife having a divorce with you. What can society do to prevent this? Maybe mandatory counseling for both parties after a divorce. What if you enjoy taking people's money? The average person won't enjoy taking others' money. Again, there are other issues here that are not being dealt with.
I guess all this can be summed up with the question "why do we, as a society, allow these crimes to happen?".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sheesh, why do I have to quote myself? I'm not saying that the person who commits the crime isn't guilty and/or responsible am I? I'm merely questioning why we have to wait for the crime to happen before we do anything. When it does, we dont' blame ourselves for not preventing it, instead we just punish the person who did it and wait for the next person who commits the same crime and punish THEM.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... Usually we are unaware that they would commit a crime before it actually happens. So I have to say I do not see your point.
And no, you did not say the person who commits the crime is not guilty, but you are wanting to place far too much blame on others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Say you did run over your wife and kids. Why did you do it? Why did your wife divorce you in the first place? The average joe who goes to divorce court won't go and commit murder. Clearly, there're other issues other than your wife having a divorce with you. What can society do to prevent this? Maybe mandatory counseling for both parties after a divorce. What if you enjoy taking people's money? The average person won't enjoy taking others' money. Again, there are other issues here that are not being dealt with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and they are personal issues. They are not tangible. They are not something that society can or should assume to do something about. Its not possible. No one would know that he would decide to run over his wife. Its absurb to even suggest that we should know when someone would commit a crime. Society is not to blame for that guy killing his wife... Society is not to blame for that guy wanting to steal money. Are there issues? Definitely, but they are not society's fault. We all have issues. It seems that the vast majority of us know how to actually handle them though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess all this can be summed up with the question "why do we, as a society, allow these crimes to happen?".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a good question. It assumes that society has the control to stop all crime. That's impossible. That's unrealistic. That's really naive. Society has no control over people's actions. That is what this comes down to. People make their own choices. People have their own minds. People are in control of their own actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess all this can be summed up with the question "why do we, as a society, allow these crimes to happen?". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a good question. It assumes that society has the control to stop all crime. That's impossible. That's unrealistic. That's really naive. Society has no control over people's actions. That is what this comes down to. People make their own choices. People have their own minds. People are in control of their own actions.
NOT Society. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Society doesn't not "Allow" any criminal behavior. Bad choice of words. Plus as othell says, the possibility of a utopia is impossible. If it were possible, we'd already have one, I'm sure.
<!--QuoteBegin-vP-|Pikey+Mar 13 2004, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (vP-|Pikey @ Mar 13 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sheesh, why do I have to quote myself? I'm not saying that the person who commits the crime isn't guilty and/or responsible am I? I'm merely questioning why we have to wait for the crime to happen before we do anything. When it does, we dont' blame ourselves for not preventing it, instead we just punish the person who did it and wait for the next person who commits the same crime and punish THEM. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because there's nothing else we can do. There's billions of people in this world, we can't win them all. It might be better if we had the means to help everyone, but do you want to pay the bill? No one can handle THAT much, it's simply too much to ask that we identify all potential criminals and prevent their crimes, it can't work in a society.
<!--QuoteBegin-xect+Mar 13 2004, 01:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xect @ Mar 13 2004, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-vP-|Pikey+Mar 13 2004, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (vP-|Pikey @ Mar 13 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sheesh, why do I have to quote myself? I'm not saying that the person who commits the crime isn't guilty and/or responsible am I? I'm merely questioning why we have to wait for the crime to happen before we do anything. When it does, we dont' blame ourselves for not preventing it, instead we just punish the person who did it and wait for the next person who commits the same crime and punish THEM. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because there's nothing else we can do. There's billions of people in this world, we can't win them all. It might be better if we had the means to help everyone, but do you want to pay the bill? No one can handle THAT much, it's simply too much to ask that we identify all potential criminals and prevent their crimes, it can't work in a society. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, we saw how well it worked in Minority Report!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Mar 13 2004, 11:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Mar 13 2004, 11:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, we saw how well it worked in Minority Report!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, another issue entirely <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I still don't get the ending of that movie. They succeed in effectively reducing murders to zero, then they abandon the system because it fails once. I mean, how much did the old-style system fail, a hundred times as much? I would strongly prefer the minority report system. Of cause, a more humane punishment system would work better, perhaps just interrupting events. If the police could bust through the door just before the murder, say "sir, we'd appreciate if you didn't do that", close the door and leave, that would be perfect.
But that's off topic, back to the topic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
we let the cycle repeat itself.. instead of actively stopping it...
like with the marital thing.. when a married couple split.. there should be a more 'drawn out' process to determine the mental status etc.. does the guy harbor resentment ? does she want him gone?
ya know? it kinda makes sense.. but i dont see how you could flip it and apply it to conmen..
<!--QuoteBegin-Moquiao+Mar 14 2004, 12:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moquiao @ Mar 14 2004, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> like with the marital thing.. when a married couple split.. there should be a more 'drawn out' process to determine the mental status etc.. does the guy harbor resentment ? does she want him gone? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. But if that's the issue, then I have two comments. First, again, who will pay the bill. Such a process is expensive, and someone will have to pay the bill everytime there is a divorce, which is not a rare event these days. Second, I seriously doubt Conmen are doing what they do because of divorce trauma.
Comments
conmen.. dont rob you of your life. they rob you off your money. the kind of conmen we are on about.. only go for high risk targets. this means lots fo money. if the person is that loaded.. then yeah its wrong to take theyre money... but it isnt life ending. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
O I see. Thanks for making it clear. A meticulously planned rape is fine, because I havn't killed anyone, but murder is wrong, no matter how clever the guy who did it was, because someone got killed. Right, I understand.
conmen.. dont rob you of your life. they rob you off your money. the kind of conmen we are on about.. only go for high risk targets. this means lots fo money. if the person is that loaded.. then yeah its wrong to take theyre money... but it isnt life ending. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
O I see. Thanks for making it clear. A meticulously planned rape is fine, because I havn't killed anyone, but murder is wrong, no matter how clever the guy who did it was, because someone got killed. Right, I understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are taking every word i say very literally...
a rapist steals somebodys life too in a sense if you want to get technical with the amount of heartache and mental trauma.. let alone physical..
but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life...
you are taking my every word very literally
planning a rape doesnt take 'skill' it takes a twisted person.
indeed.. some are well thought out.. im not saying for even a second i agree with it or anything like that it is horrific.
as far as crimes go, conning is nothing imo... just as some people would regard smoking weed as nothing.. to ME smoking weed should get u locked up...
but we all have our own reasons and beliefs, i just wanted your take on things.. not a debate on morals..
but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're weighing and contrasting felonies here.. Can you say that since manslaughter is less severe than 1st degree murder that manslaughter is to be admired? That's horribly flawed logic.
If a robber steals an old lady's purse as opposed to a conman tricking the old lady to give her purse to the conman.. is the end result any different? In the end, a conman is just a deceiving thief. Nothing more.
I find it pathetic that you're trying to defend conmen. Its sickening really. They do not deserve to be defended. Just because they can do something clever is no reason to excuse their illegal and immoral actions. People do not deserve to be con'd. End of story.
This is not a scale of severity anyways. What they do is wrong and should not be defended in the least. Go somewhere else if you're going to continue defending conmen... This forum is for intelligent discussion and you sir are not contributing.
It's easy to stand there and be all saintly, but are we really as innocent as we pretend we are? What if you're one of the kids who bullied the man in highschool? Or you're one of the people who urged your congressman to vote against the anti-poverty bill because it costs too much?
I believe that whenever a crime has been commited, society is just as guilty as those who commit the crime itself. But, we can't really punish people for indifference or selfishness, can we?
It's easy to stand there and be all saintly, but are we really as innocent as we pretend we are? What if you're one of the kids who bullied the man in highschool? Or you're one of the people who urged your congressman to vote against the anti-poverty bill because it costs too much?
I believe that whenever a crime has been commited, society is just as guilty as those who commit the crime itself. But, we can't really punish people for indifference or selfishness, can we? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why can be determined and argued about all we want after we get help for such people or remove them from society so that they cannot cause any more harm... to themselves and especially to others.
Even then I think you're trying to make excuses for their actions. Sure, we can blame society all we want... But the fact remains that usually the vast majority of the fault lies with the individual. Sure, they may have been dealt some bad cards, but that does not mean that had to break the law. I was bullied and teased in school, but I took it all and am stronger because of it.
We do not need to continue giving people ways to blame others for their actions. Just like gun manufacturers or fast food eating establishments being blamed for the actions of others. Accept responsibility for your own actions. Don't blame society. We all know that no society is perfect. Some people will always be worse off than others, but just because you are worse off does not mean you should resort to crime. Just because someone is worse off does not give you an excuse. It is the individual's responsibility.
No one is being saintly here. The majority of people here are simply stating that those who break the law should face the consequences of their actions regardless of how clever those actions were.
a rapist steals somebodys life too in a sense if you want to get technical with the amount of heartache and mental trauma.. let alone physical..
but a conman.. doesnt rob you so blind that you have to give up your life...
you are taking my every word very literally
planning a rape doesnt take 'skill' it takes a twisted person.
indeed.. some are well thought out.. im not saying for even a second i agree with it or anything like that it is horrific.
as far as crimes go, conning is nothing imo... just as some people would regard smoking weed as nothing.. to ME smoking weed should get u locked up...
but we all have our own reasons and beliefs, i just wanted your take on things.. not a debate on morals.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I am, but only becuase, on the internet, all I know about you is what I read in your posts, I have no way of knowing wheter you are being sarcastic, if you are using a figure of speech. I cannot tell from your body language or your tone of voice, so the only ting a I can do is to go on what you post.
I gave you my take on conmen, and this started the whole debate. If you cannot have a discussion in the discussion forum, whats the point?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why did this man murder a whole family? Was it because he didn't dress like everyone else in highschool and people bullied/rejected him? How about that woman who conned a bunch of people of their life savings? Did she have a cash-strapped childhood?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They did the crime, they do the time. The circumstances are (almost) irrelevant. I say almost, becasue they should be, but do get considered.
I believe othell summed it up later:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Accept responsibility for your own actions. Don't blame society [or circumstances].<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see my wife on the road up ahead. My fists clench with rage of the things she has done to me. <i>It's your fault!</i> I accelerate the gas pedal only to slam into my unsuspecting wife and mow her down like grass.
Not but an hour later, I'm crying like a baby realizing the stupid thing that I have done. <i>I blame society! It's their fault I killed my wife! They should suffer the consequences, not me!</i>
You believe this man? I don't. Okay, maybe he had a bad day, but people have bad days. Certainly not everyone in his shoes would have done the same. Being a conman is 10 times worse, because you have nothing to blame it on. You can't say you did it out of rage, or because your mom beat you as a kid. You con people out of their money for the purposes of taking what other people have for your own enjoyment. If you don't think this is a crime worth punishing, then I know a bridge called Brooklyn that's for sale.
If rapists take a life, so does a conman taking away millions from you. Money is, no matter what, one of the basics in a capitalistic society. That can be good or bad, take your pick, but whatever you think about it, you need money to get something. When someone takes away your money, they take away your rights.
Just because they're skilled, they're still taking away peoples rights.
Sheesh, why do I have to quote myself? I'm not saying that the person who commits the crime isn't guilty and/or responsible am I? I'm merely questioning why we have to wait for the crime to happen before we do anything. When it does, we dont' blame ourselves for not preventing it, instead we just punish the person who did it and wait for the next person who commits the same crime and punish THEM.
Say you did run over your wife and kids. Why did you do it? Why did your wife divorce you in the first place? The average joe who goes to divorce court won't go and commit murder. Clearly, there're other issues other than your wife having a divorce with you. What can society do to prevent this? Maybe mandatory counseling for both parties after a divorce. What if you enjoy taking people's money? The average person won't enjoy taking others' money. Again, there are other issues here that are not being dealt with.
I guess all this can be summed up with the question "why do we, as a society, allow these crimes to happen?".
Oh dear, have I semi-hijacked the thread?
Well... Usually we are unaware that they would commit a crime before it actually happens. So I have to say I do not see your point.
And no, you did not say the person who commits the crime is not guilty, but you are wanting to place far too much blame on others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Say you did run over your wife and kids. Why did you do it? Why did your wife divorce you in the first place? The average joe who goes to divorce court won't go and commit murder. Clearly, there're other issues other than your wife having a divorce with you. What can society do to prevent this? Maybe mandatory counseling for both parties after a divorce. What if you enjoy taking people's money? The average person won't enjoy taking others' money. Again, there are other issues here that are not being dealt with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and they are personal issues. They are not tangible. They are not something that society can or should assume to do something about. Its not possible. No one would know that he would decide to run over his wife. Its absurb to even suggest that we should know when someone would commit a crime. Society is not to blame for that guy killing his wife... Society is not to blame for that guy wanting to steal money. Are there issues? Definitely, but they are not society's fault. We all have issues. It seems that the vast majority of us know how to actually handle them though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess all this can be summed up with the question "why do we, as a society, allow these crimes to happen?".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a good question. It assumes that society has the control to stop all crime. That's impossible. That's unrealistic. That's really naive. Society has no control over people's actions. That is what this comes down to. People make their own choices. People have their own minds. People are in control of their own actions.
NOT Society.
That's not a good question. It assumes that society has the control to stop all crime. That's impossible. That's unrealistic. That's really naive. Society has no control over people's actions. That is what this comes down to. People make their own choices. People have their own minds. People are in control of their own actions.
NOT Society. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Society doesn't not "Allow" any criminal behavior. Bad choice of words. Plus as othell says, the possibility of a utopia is impossible. If it were possible, we'd already have one, I'm sure.
Because there's nothing else we can do. There's billions of people in this world, we can't win them all. It might be better if we had the means to help everyone, but do you want to pay the bill? No one can handle THAT much, it's simply too much to ask that we identify all potential criminals and prevent their crimes, it can't work in a society.
Because there's nothing else we can do. There's billions of people in this world, we can't win them all. It might be better if we had the means to help everyone, but do you want to pay the bill? No one can handle THAT much, it's simply too much to ask that we identify all potential criminals and prevent their crimes, it can't work in a society. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, we saw how well it worked in Minority Report!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh, another issue entirely <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I still don't get the ending of that movie. They succeed in effectively reducing murders to zero, then they abandon the system because it fails once. I mean, how much did the old-style system fail, a hundred times as much? I would strongly prefer the minority report system. Of cause, a more humane punishment system would work better, perhaps just interrupting events. If the police could bust through the door just before the murder, say "sir, we'd appreciate if you didn't do that", close the door and leave, that would be perfect.
But that's off topic, back to the topic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
we let the cycle repeat itself.. instead of actively stopping it...
like with the marital thing.. when a married couple split.. there should be a more 'drawn out' process to determine the mental status etc.. does the guy harbor resentment ? does she want him gone?
ya know? it kinda makes sense.. but i dont see how you could flip it and apply it to conmen..
Yeah. But if that's the issue, then I have two comments. First, again, who will pay the bill. Such a process is expensive, and someone will have to pay the bill everytime there is a divorce, which is not a rare event these days. Second, I seriously doubt Conmen are doing what they do because of divorce trauma.