Au1 Or Wu1 First?
m4d
Join Date: 2003-07-25 Member: 18419Members
Join Date: 2003-07-25 Member: 18419Members
<div class="IPBDescription">topic title says all ;)</div> Heya
i can remember a discussion some time ago in 2.01 ages what the better first upgrade had been. Most ppl said it is armor1 while others said it's weapon1. After all it ended up with most ppl beleaving au1 is the better choice. This had been true for 2.01 but now we are in beta 3 times.
So it's time for a change in thinking. Marine armor has been nerfed as most ppl know. While in 2.01 an armor rush could really work well, in beta 3 it's horribly bad. In 2.01 you could medpack your marines with armor3 and they got armor left the most of the time. It's different in beta3, if you don't give out welders your armor3 won't bring you any good for long.
But these welders cost 5 res each and get lost in the field very often, so this is no real option in my eyes.
But what about armor1? It's not that great anymore.. sure if aliens got sc and focus it's a must have but in any normal dc game?
In dc games you can bet on these early fades to come and rip your whole game appart if you don't pack the right firepower. This is even more true with the new beefed up fades that can take more damage.
Armor1 get's useless as soon as a marine gets biten 1 time, weapon1 (and weapon2 soon after that) stay as long as the marine is alive. So better to go save and get this weapon2 asap and AFTER that get armor1. Sure it's tough on the marines on the start but they will be thankfull for the weapon2 and these shotguns they will have when the first fades come. Every fade knows that shotguns with lvl2/3 weapons can realy hurt.
So what i want to say with all this is simpel: Just try it! don't go armor1 first go weapon1 first and right after that weapon2 it worked pretty well for me.
Oh and for the flamers to come... remember this is beta3 not 2.01, the game has changed so why play with an old playstyle if there are changes in the game?
sorry about my bad english but i hope i could at least bring my point across ^^
i can remember a discussion some time ago in 2.01 ages what the better first upgrade had been. Most ppl said it is armor1 while others said it's weapon1. After all it ended up with most ppl beleaving au1 is the better choice. This had been true for 2.01 but now we are in beta 3 times.
So it's time for a change in thinking. Marine armor has been nerfed as most ppl know. While in 2.01 an armor rush could really work well, in beta 3 it's horribly bad. In 2.01 you could medpack your marines with armor3 and they got armor left the most of the time. It's different in beta3, if you don't give out welders your armor3 won't bring you any good for long.
But these welders cost 5 res each and get lost in the field very often, so this is no real option in my eyes.
But what about armor1? It's not that great anymore.. sure if aliens got sc and focus it's a must have but in any normal dc game?
In dc games you can bet on these early fades to come and rip your whole game appart if you don't pack the right firepower. This is even more true with the new beefed up fades that can take more damage.
Armor1 get's useless as soon as a marine gets biten 1 time, weapon1 (and weapon2 soon after that) stay as long as the marine is alive. So better to go save and get this weapon2 asap and AFTER that get armor1. Sure it's tough on the marines on the start but they will be thankfull for the weapon2 and these shotguns they will have when the first fades come. Every fade knows that shotguns with lvl2/3 weapons can realy hurt.
So what i want to say with all this is simpel: Just try it! don't go armor1 first go weapon1 first and right after that weapon2 it worked pretty well for me.
Oh and for the flamers to come... remember this is beta3 not 2.01, the game has changed so why play with an old playstyle if there are changes in the game?
sorry about my bad english but i hope i could at least bring my point across ^^
Comments
it's increased for 1 bite! after that bite you are back to normal and got no more use out of the upgrade
and you can't compare stuff like this in %, if you would do it like that an armor3 marine would increase his survivability rate of 150% and that's not true.
And be real, how long does your armor stay in most games? Even a good marine get's bitten some times and runs arround most of the time with 0 armor left (if he get's medpacks).
Focus goes from a one-hit kill to two-hits. Non-focus hits go from 2 to 3 for skulks, fades and onos and 3 to 4 for lerks.
Weapon 1 on the other hand doesn't change the number of LMG rounds you need to kill a non-carapace skulk (it's 9 rounds for both weapon0 and weapon1) and only changes the carapace number by 1 (from 13 to 12 rounds).
Furthermore, w1 doesn't kill a basic skulk any faster than w0. After 8 shots from the lmg or 4 from the pistol with w1, a skulk will live with 2 hp rather than 10. It doesn't matter, really, because both 2 hp and 10 hp die in one more shot.
W1... it's kinda crappy. Useful for shotties. Regardless, A1 is superior.
I allready said that au1 is only a must have for sc against focus
I allready said that welders are no option cuz they get lost pretty quick and cost res
I don't think it's all that usefull to give out even more res to get a real use out of a 20/30/40 res upgrade
You didn't even get to my point that armor1 get's useless as soon as the marine get's biten 1 time.
I said "Try it and discuss after it"
The whole point in this thing is to get wu2 asap to have an easier time killing fades coming early to midgame. And everybody who got at least SOME clue about this game knows that fades are the biggest problem for marines in the first minutes into the round. (sure onos can be troubelsome too but come on a 1 Hive onos won't stay alive all that long)
I know the problem from myself when i started commanding i really had a hard time with these fades. You can have whole mapcontrol with elecrt's and even 2 hives locked down, 1-2 good fades can destroy all this in a few minutes.
So don't tell me you never had this problem.
In beta3 fades got even more beefed up with the extra hp/armor, sure the hitbox fix compensates for that but i think the new fade is still more powerfull than the old one.
Just try it out on public or scrims i tried booth and it worked wonders most of the times. You ppl gotta to be more open for new strats new ways to go, most of the comm's out there play all the same cuz they saw how another comm did it and won with it so they have to copy it.
So why don't you try something else something different?
Stop thinking in 2.01 terms start thinking in beta3 terms.
Also, for rines who travel in packs, the few aliens that they do come across, rarely get that 2nd bite for a kill.
Sure, you can get to weap 2 faster, but that only makes sense. (since you need weap 1 to get weap 2...) If a res hoarder goes fade in 5 mins, then it's a good idea to get weapon upgrades, but in the early game where all aliens are skulks and gorges, armor 1 is better. Besides, a shotgun mixed into a group of lmg meatshields if better against fades than lmg's with 2 weapon upgrades.
btw, if two fades can destroy all you've built, then you need to inprove your building strategy. If the two fades are L337 fades, then weapon 3 won't help you, you'll need lots of big guns and lots of armor. (Pref HA.) If your team is noobs, then you're dead anyways... lol... Also, if you win a game and u used the weap 1 first tactic, that doesn't mean that the game was won solely on that decision. There are many more factors than just upgrades in a game, so you have to let consistency of success (in the case of armor first) and numbers show which is better.
Just because NS has changed in B3 doesn't mean that strategies from 2 aren't viable. It doesn't mean that the game is TOTALLY different either. Besides, in B3 rines have less armor, so that's all the more reason to get armor 1 instead of weap 1. (Armor is less, but lmg damage is the same...)
3.0: Au1
Why do I believe this is so? I don't really see how marine armor has been greatly nerfed, but even if it has, armor ups are still more important than they used to be, simply because of focus.
I allready said that au1 is only a must have for sc against focus
I allready said that welders are no option cuz they get lost pretty quick and cost res <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You already saying something doesn't make it right or relevant. You are the claimant, the burden of proof is on you.
As for the welders, they are an option. You don't want too many, one or two will do until you actually have buildings to fix. But I see many more people welding armor these days. It's extremely useful. LA isn't just throwaway padding anymore.
As for whoever said that welders are useless before ha - I recommend you try finding better servers, so that you may be educated about the fallacy of your statement.
Armor 1 or weapons 1 is the same idiots debate that it has been since the game came out, since the game dynamics haven't changed, and there are about 20 different posts in this forum alone about it, so I won't bother talking about it.
However, since the benefit of weapons 1 is so slight, I can see a case for getting armor 2 before any weapon upgrades, especially if you carry welders around. If you see fades or onos, drop a bunch of shotguns.
Edit: oops Lucky beat me to it.
If I were a fade, and would encounter a marine team with a commander who researched weapon1, 2 before any armor upgrade, I would laugh and pop the champagne bottle, in the same manner as I would whilst hearing the aliens got sensory when i would sit in the commchair <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If I were a fade, and would encounter a marine team with a commander who researched weapon1, 2 before any armor upgrade, I would laugh and pop the champagne bottle, in the same manner as I would whilst hearing the aliens got sensory when i would sit in the commchair
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehe listen to buggy and u would learn some usefull things about comming. i think the real debate is getting a2 before w1 or before w3. i like to get a1 w1 a2 w2 cos i think its more balanced for my rines and its 10 res cheaper and faster they die less and medpacks r more effective.
If u gonna make a group attack give welders! welding armor is as usefull and quick as giving meds
Can't we like sticky one of the topics once so all ppl know.
Welders aren't great for pub games where clueless marines never use their slot 4 , but it can work with good regulars. However , if you have h4x-like veterans they will prefer weapon upgrades after armor 1.
There's nothing more annoying to a fade than a bunch of medpacked/catpacked armor 2 marines.
By the sounds of things your relying on your squad to all have a decent aim, if you got a team of confident marines then your idea would own, however for the random public server id still go with Au1 first followed by Wu1 & Wu2.
Neone-else dis-agree?
If your like me and get weap1 then armor1 right after eachother it shouldnt really matter what you get first because you will have them fast
The bottom line is, armor 1 is going to help more people on the team than it will hurt them. Armor 1 will finish quickly, and you can get your elite players their weapons 1 next.
4 parasites is your entire adrenaline bar, and your average player can't score a hit every time with parasite.
And yep. its a VERY old discussion. point is indeed you never know.
Hell, I consider myself a pro/elite and I want armor1 always. I do nto need one less bullet. Its not that I am gona empty my clips if a skulkgroup comes anywayz.
4 parasites is your entire adrenaline bar, and your average player can't score a hit every time with parasite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. I was making the point that it probably wouldn't happen. I was responding to this post:
<!--QuoteBegin-Stakhanov+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think weapon upgrades affect the knife... so with armor 1 you have a better chance at knifing damaged skulks (though smart ones will parasite you twice)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was pointing out that a skulk isn't likely to finish off the armor1 marine with parasites. I guess I should make that clearer next time.