The Balance Of Power
reno
Join Date: 2004-03-03 Member: 27083Members
Join Date: 2004-03-03 Member: 27083Members
<div class="IPBDescription">of these new upgrades and fixes</div>I think this is a "needed" topic in here, and i did not find anything similar to this.
Nowadays, many people whine (including myself) in the server to many lame-and-not-so-lame acts, like gl-spamming and the new fashion, focus fades. I want you people to give me your opinion on these listed acts, and propably a way how YOU would fix these issues. I expect a lot of opposite opinions and general flaming on this, because these share opinions. Mostly concentrated on co-maps unless otherwise stated.
Here it goes:
The classic gl-spamming
when it seems like half or more of the marine team has gl and hack away you little skulks and lerks with their constant explosions, and fades and onoses losing hp enough so they get killed by the first hmg-fire they encounter. A problem that raises its head in co-maps mostly, because in ns-maps it costs more res and you have to be careful about getting killed when you carry an expensive weapon. In co-maps, a few gl-guys get to empty their grens to the hive and it's all over, in ns-maps you (usuallu) have more hives when you get one shot down by them.
As a result, i think gl is at a good place in ns-maps, but co-maps should have a limit to gl-users, like 1-2 or more if on a big server. My opinion, gl is not lame, gl spamming is.
Skulk/marine startrushing and camping, also spawnkilling
Everyone says that aliens and marines camp, one or the other, but i think they don't really think about it to the end. The typical situation, let's say, marines in their base and skulks keep rushing in but they keep staying in base and holding their ground: the marines are forced to camp, because if they leave their base too soon, it get skulkinfested in a nanosecond and respawning marines have a tough or maybe impossible time to survive. On the other side, marines say that skulks camp outside their base: why should they not, they are looking for exp too, and they don't get it by waiting at the hive. It's just a question who outwits who to me. Spawnkilling in ns-maps is usually in the situation where the outcome of the match is already decided, but in co-maps it's just plain annoying, but why would you not kill a spawning reinforcements to the enemy, it leads to victory. Judgement: startrushing is not fun, it does not get you anywhere because the game ends too soon, and the you still go back to the beginning. Camping, of course marines camp until they have the decent firepower to hold their base and attack the same time, it also gets aliens time and levels. Spawnkilling, as i once heard from someone in ns, it is called "suppressing reinforcements".
Focus fades vs. jp+sg rushing (even alone)
The new fashion at Kharaa, Fades using focus. People say that they get way too may kills and blinking is something that even an idiot can do and get to the top of the scoreboard. I agree to this, the new fade got 300hp and 150 armor, and 250 with carapade. With focus and other upgrades, few of these can massacre the whole team of light marines and a lonely ha gets beaten badly atleast, thus easy food for others. I don't know how to fix this "problem", but i ask your opinion about this.
Then jp+sg, if the alien team has other classes other than atleast 1 active gorge, 1 single jp+sg-guy rushes in every minute and turns the hive into swiss cheese whitin minutes, as people seem to bother lerking but not umbra when it is needed. To this, maybe the jp in co-maps could use some tweaks? My opinions, your call.
In most co-maps the hive is too accessible to jp-rushing.
Some people whine about gorges webs, that it's too "powerful". Why is that, the gorge has no other combat capability whatsoever, it can only aid others in it's team, and it's called teamwork then. My opinion, useless whining.
All i can remember right now concerning this topic, so i will add more later if the need arises. Please, comment and tell others about other such issues in the game.
Nowadays, many people whine (including myself) in the server to many lame-and-not-so-lame acts, like gl-spamming and the new fashion, focus fades. I want you people to give me your opinion on these listed acts, and propably a way how YOU would fix these issues. I expect a lot of opposite opinions and general flaming on this, because these share opinions. Mostly concentrated on co-maps unless otherwise stated.
Here it goes:
The classic gl-spamming
when it seems like half or more of the marine team has gl and hack away you little skulks and lerks with their constant explosions, and fades and onoses losing hp enough so they get killed by the first hmg-fire they encounter. A problem that raises its head in co-maps mostly, because in ns-maps it costs more res and you have to be careful about getting killed when you carry an expensive weapon. In co-maps, a few gl-guys get to empty their grens to the hive and it's all over, in ns-maps you (usuallu) have more hives when you get one shot down by them.
As a result, i think gl is at a good place in ns-maps, but co-maps should have a limit to gl-users, like 1-2 or more if on a big server. My opinion, gl is not lame, gl spamming is.
Skulk/marine startrushing and camping, also spawnkilling
Everyone says that aliens and marines camp, one or the other, but i think they don't really think about it to the end. The typical situation, let's say, marines in their base and skulks keep rushing in but they keep staying in base and holding their ground: the marines are forced to camp, because if they leave their base too soon, it get skulkinfested in a nanosecond and respawning marines have a tough or maybe impossible time to survive. On the other side, marines say that skulks camp outside their base: why should they not, they are looking for exp too, and they don't get it by waiting at the hive. It's just a question who outwits who to me. Spawnkilling in ns-maps is usually in the situation where the outcome of the match is already decided, but in co-maps it's just plain annoying, but why would you not kill a spawning reinforcements to the enemy, it leads to victory. Judgement: startrushing is not fun, it does not get you anywhere because the game ends too soon, and the you still go back to the beginning. Camping, of course marines camp until they have the decent firepower to hold their base and attack the same time, it also gets aliens time and levels. Spawnkilling, as i once heard from someone in ns, it is called "suppressing reinforcements".
Focus fades vs. jp+sg rushing (even alone)
The new fashion at Kharaa, Fades using focus. People say that they get way too may kills and blinking is something that even an idiot can do and get to the top of the scoreboard. I agree to this, the new fade got 300hp and 150 armor, and 250 with carapade. With focus and other upgrades, few of these can massacre the whole team of light marines and a lonely ha gets beaten badly atleast, thus easy food for others. I don't know how to fix this "problem", but i ask your opinion about this.
Then jp+sg, if the alien team has other classes other than atleast 1 active gorge, 1 single jp+sg-guy rushes in every minute and turns the hive into swiss cheese whitin minutes, as people seem to bother lerking but not umbra when it is needed. To this, maybe the jp in co-maps could use some tweaks? My opinions, your call.
In most co-maps the hive is too accessible to jp-rushing.
Some people whine about gorges webs, that it's too "powerful". Why is that, the gorge has no other combat capability whatsoever, it can only aid others in it's team, and it's called teamwork then. My opinion, useless whining.
All i can remember right now concerning this topic, so i will add more later if the need arises. Please, comment and tell others about other such issues in the game.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The classic gl-spamming
when it seems like half or more of the marine team has gl and hack away you little skulks and lerks with their constant explosions, and fades and onoses losing hp enough so they get killed by the first hmg-fire they encounter. A problem that raises its head in co-maps mostly, because in ns-maps it costs more res and you have to be careful about getting killed when you carry an expensive weapon. In co-maps, a few gl-guys get to empty their grens to the hive and it's all over, in ns-maps you (usuallu) have more hives when you get one shot down by them.
As a result, i think gl is at a good place in ns-maps, but co-maps should have a limit to gl-users, like 1-2 or more if on a big server. My opinion, gl is not lame, gl spamming is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GL spamming is retarded and takes zero skill. The only time GL's take skill is when FF is on.
I remember one pub I was on and there were about 13 marines, half with GL's and the other half with HMG's.
The aliens could not end the game. The admin turned on FF. Marine team killed itself and by the time the first onos got to the CC it was in the yellows. GG marine spamming newbs.
Conclusion: Grenades are fine as long as FF is on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulk/marine startrushing and camping, also spawnkilling
Everyone says that aliens and marines camp, one or the other, but i think they don't really think about it to the end. The typical situation, let's say, marines in their base and skulks keep rushing in but they keep staying in base and holding their ground: the marines are forced to camp, because if they leave their base too soon, it get skulkinfested in a nanosecond and respawning marines have a tough or maybe impossible time to survive. On the other side, marines say that skulks camp outside their base: why should they not, they are looking for exp too, and they don't get it by waiting at the hive. It's just a question who outwits who to me. Spawnkilling in ns-maps is usually in the situation where the outcome of the match is already decided, but in co-maps it's just plain annoying, but why would you not kill a spawning reinforcements to the enemy, it leads to victory. Judgement: startrushing is not fun, it does not get you anywhere because the game ends too soon, and the you still go back to the beginning. Camping, of course marines camp until they have the decent firepower to hold their base and attack the same time, it also gets aliens time and levels. Spawnkilling, as i once heard from someone in ns, it is called "suppressing reinforcements".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spawn camping is fine, by all accounts.
Marine camping inside of their own spawn is retarded. It's boring and kills the atmosphere of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus fades vs. jp+sg rushing (even alone)
The new fashion at Kharaa, Fades using focus. People say that they get way too may kills and blinking is something that even an idiot can do and get to the top of the scoreboard. I agree to this, the new fade got 300hp and 150 armor, and 250 with carapade. With focus and other upgrades, few of these can massacre the whole team of light marines and a lonely ha gets beaten badly atleast, thus easy food for others. I don't know how to fix this "problem", but i ask your opinion about this.
Then jp+sg, if the alien team has other classes other than atleast 1 active gorge, 1 single jp+sg-guy rushes in every minute and turns the hive into swiss cheese whitin minutes, as people seem to bother lerking but not umbra when it is needed. To this, maybe the jp in co-maps could use some tweaks? My opinions, your call.
In most co-maps the hive is too accessible to jp-rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In regular NS, fades are fine. In co, they are clearly overpowered. I don't see any way to fix this.
I think fades are too strong in CO because fades get more benifit from the chamber upgrades than any other class in the game.
JP's are fine however. It is very possible to counter and doesn't take webs.
By the way, webs are stupid in CO. It makes assulting the hive an impossibility and webs are rediculously easy to use considering how overpowered they are.
Anyway. As I see it, nade spamming and focus skulks+fades are just a strategy. Each one can be stopped with the right upgrades (level 2-3 armour for focus aliens, leap or cloaking to catch GL marines). The only complaint I have at all (and this really only occures in NS combat) is aliens rushing marine base early then just sitting in spawn and eatin the marines 1 at a time. Because of the 1 marine spawn at a time they have no chance whatsoever of stopping >3 skulks. The only real way this can be stopped is by having the marines stay in base long enough to get enough upgrades to efficiently guard themselves against the Kharaa. But think about it, how many times has Joe Nsplayer actually listened to what you said? Most people will just run off and easily get dispatched by a few aliens. Which in turn get levels up and soon the whole game is over.
Not to mention that a welder wielding soldier in front of the group can clear stray webs around the map.
when it seems like half or more of the marine team has gl and hack away you little skulks and lerks with their constant explosions, and fades and onoses losing hp enough so they get killed by the first hmg-fire they encounter. A problem that raises its head in co-maps mostly, because in ns-maps it costs more res and you have to be careful about getting killed when you carry an expensive weapon. In co-maps, a few gl-guys get to empty their grens to the hive and it's all over, in ns-maps you (usuallu) have more hives when you get one shot down by them.
As a result, i think gl is at a good place in ns-maps, but co-maps should have a limit to gl-users, like 1-2 or more if on a big server. My opinion, gl is not lame, gl spamming is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot to point out the flaw of CO maps.
Corridors in CO maps are short and small, making them GL-spamotopia. Anything short of a Fade or Onos are shredded into bits by the grenades, and Fade and Onos get severely injured.
After that HMGs just mop up the rest of the mess. GLers don't have to worry as long as there aren't too many deaths in the process if they die because they'll respawn soon.
EDIT : I wish they left in the timelimit for marines to kill the aliens. Maybe 7 minutes at max. This will allow rather short games, but allow all to reach level 10 before the time limit.
Super-<i>Skulk / Lerk / Fade / Onos</i>-Joe NsPlayers that get 100-1 or close should not play on servers where everyone else is just Average Joe. **** off and go play on a server with better people to give us a chance you twats.
when it seems like half or more of the marine team has gl and hack away you little skulks and lerks with their constant explosions, and fades and onoses losing hp enough so they get killed by the first hmg-fire they encounter. A problem that raises its head in co-maps mostly, because in ns-maps it costs more res and you have to be careful about getting killed when you carry an expensive weapon. In co-maps, a few gl-guys get to empty their grens to the hive and it's all over, in ns-maps you (usuallu) have more hives when you get one shot down by them.
As a result, i think gl is at a good place in ns-maps, but co-maps should have a limit to gl-users, like 1-2 or more if on a big server. My opinion, gl is not lame, gl spamming is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, when I grab a GL, I am instantly labeled as a GL spammer. I take insult to this, as I go to great lengths to not spam nades indiscriminately, and if you've seen me play, despite the fact that my name is "Asal Teh Nade SpammAr", I do my best not to spam nades, and instead aim with my shots. The GL has a small clip, I hope to use it well. Unfortunately, when you do well with a GL, people tend to try to follow your example, and that is when things go wrong. I prefer to have no more than 1 GLer, and I would not find a limit a massive problem, but if you're going to do that, what about the Onos? You must address all issues together, not just one at a time, that is what makes balance hard.
Anyway
Grenade spam: If more people would go fade or onos instead of their silly superskulks, maybe there'd be less whining about it.
Focus fade: Agreed, its ridiculusly easy to get tons of kills with the proper fade upgrades, even if you are just an averagely skilled one in classic.
jp rushing: Well, if theres one jp guy able to take down your entire hive, then there's something wrong on the alien team.
Spawncamping: Is just the only way to accomplish your goal: Taking down the cc/hive
Gah combat sux <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
he meant limiting the number of onii allowed on a team if you are going to limit the gl.
he meant limiting the number of onii allowed on a team if you are going to limit the gl. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i know, onos are easy to take down and can only get 5 upgrades, or is it 4, whatever still not too hard to take down.
Combat is supposed to be a fast game. Marines get JP+SG while aliens have no gorges or lerks? gg. This is the way it works.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most co-maps the hive is too accessible to jp-rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only problem with some combat maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With focus and other upgrades, few of these can massacre the whole team of light marines and a lonely ha gets beaten badly atleast, thus easy food for others<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, ...? By the time a fade gets focus, celerity and adrenalin he is level 6 (?). All marines have heavy armor and shotguns. So what's the problem? That fade doesn't even have regeneration, carapace or metabolize. It will die to a single HA/SG marine in ~2 seconds. Sure, the marine won't have full health and armor after the encounter but HA should not make marines invincible. And "idiots" playing fade... they don't even know how to use blink.
If I've decided on fade from the start, I'll have got focus and carapace as my first two non-lifeform upgrades. The hive heals you fast enough and with careful blinking and focus you don't run out of energy. If you <b>let</b> the marines get to mid-map then you can blink between hive and the action easily.
You can then easily upgrade from there to whatever you want.