Sedna And Europa
Thaldarin
Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Sedna really a planet? Life on Europa?</div> Just flicking through the BBC News on the web tonight and I saw a couple of things going on outside the planet. I also saw "Sedna" on the national news and thought the debate of "Planet, or not a planet" a good bit of discuission. According to <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3511678.stm#graphic' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/...678.stm#graphic</a> (BBC Website) Pluto and Sedna are nothing but Kuiper Belt objects which are the remains and debris of when our solar system formed.
I also found another article linking on from that which would fit into this topic. Scientists are trying to melt through the ice of Europa (A moon of jupiter) and gain access to the water and obtain samples for analysing, in the hope of discovering microbial life. Article can be found at <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3548139.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3548139.stm</a> (BBC Website).
I'm going to do some more research on this for now, especially on the Kuiper Belt as thats intriguing. Europa is ice and rock, which is the description for a Kuiper Belt object, which interests me in to the theory that if Europa has life and water under the ice, so could Pluto, Sedna etc.
Anyway post your own views, ideas, opinions and share knowledge. Any extra bits of information from research will be placed on this post in gray text.
<span style='color:gray'>http://www.solarviews.com/eng/kuiper.htm - Some information on Kuiper Belt objects which can help with why Sedna and other objects such as Quaroar are not just floating bodies, but could be planetary objects. As they are orbiting the Sun in our solar system.</span>
I also found another article linking on from that which would fit into this topic. Scientists are trying to melt through the ice of Europa (A moon of jupiter) and gain access to the water and obtain samples for analysing, in the hope of discovering microbial life. Article can be found at <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3548139.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3548139.stm</a> (BBC Website).
I'm going to do some more research on this for now, especially on the Kuiper Belt as thats intriguing. Europa is ice and rock, which is the description for a Kuiper Belt object, which interests me in to the theory that if Europa has life and water under the ice, so could Pluto, Sedna etc.
Anyway post your own views, ideas, opinions and share knowledge. Any extra bits of information from research will be placed on this post in gray text.
<span style='color:gray'>http://www.solarviews.com/eng/kuiper.htm - Some information on Kuiper Belt objects which can help with why Sedna and other objects such as Quaroar are not just floating bodies, but could be planetary objects. As they are orbiting the Sun in our solar system.</span>
Comments
Europa is more the exception rather then the rule.
Scientists got a clue when Pioneer 10 visited Jupiter. They were expecting the galilean moons to be cratered Luna like objects. Ganymede and Callisto match what they were expecting to see, Icy cratered chunks of rock. Io was totally different. Rocky it is, Icy and old it is not. It's the closest moon in to jupiter, and because of the gravitational interaction of the other three moons constantly pulling at Io, it's orbit is slightly elliptical.
Because the orbit it elliptical, Io encounters differing gravitational fields, it is constantly stretched and squeezed by Jupiters intense gravity. This heats the interior of the small sattelite turning into a raging orgy of volcanic activity. You've got to remember, if it werent for jupiter and the other galilean sattelites, Io would be as cold and dead as Luna.
The same process is at work on Europa, only less intense. The surface is frozen solid, but the interior is probably molten. Life only probably exists there becuase of the... Gravi-Volcanic Activity*...
*(Gravitationally Induced Volcanic Activity)
Kuiper Belt objects are different. They have no heat, no energy input, and no way to be liquid. They are essentially what they are described as, chunks of ice at the outer edges of the solar system. The only chance for life in the Kuiper belt is silicon based life (Highly unlikely in our solar system) or if it coasts in on comets, alternatively hibernating during the millenia of deep freeze and revitalising during the few months that the comet will spend in the inner solar system when the ice thaws somewhat. Even then, there are incredible odds against life in the kuiper belt.
Even so, it is rich in organic compounds and may be used as a kind of fuelling point for interstellar explorers one day <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, if we do find life, I doubt it'll be more than some bacteria, maybe, if we're lucky, some primitive lifeforms (amoeba, et cetera).
Actually, I just want them to find life in other parts of the solar system so I can turn to all the fundemantilist (read: extremist) christians and say, "HA!"
And if it's written in a book, it MUST be true <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes they can. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The question is more whether there have been conditions for the initial formation of life - if there have, I'd like to quote Terry Pratchett:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Life adapts, life changes, life invades every possible space it can exist in. If there is none such, it forms it, very patiently.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that the core of the Earth is fairly unlikely to house bacteria. Even if they could live there, I don't think they've had enough time to get there.
And a small correction; Antarctica dosent have a volcano under the ice. It's actually a lake bed. The pressure of billions of tons of ice has forced a section of ice to melt, releasing any frozen bacteria in there as well.
Also, on the subject of the hardiness of life, there was a portion of the documentary series "The Planets" dedicated to this portion. One incident recounted a Nasa engineer who had the flu, sneezed into some foam by accident. This foam eventually made it to the moon, where it spent a few years being exposed to vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, radiation, and a waterless environment.
Eventually, when the Apollo missions came around, they picked up the probe that the foam was on, and took it back to earth for analysis. The second the flu came into contact with water, it started going like nothing untoward had happened. No freak mutations, no sudden development of sentience, and no monster tentacles of dewm.
So... Life > All
Europa is more the exception rather then the rule.
Scientists got a clue when Pioneer 10 visited Jupiter. They were expecting the galilean moons to be cratered Luna like objects. Ganymede and Callisto match what they were expecting to see, Icy cratered chunks of rock. Io was totally different. Rocky it is, Icy and old it is not. It's the closest moon in to jupiter, and because of the gravitational interaction of the other three moons constantly pulling at Io, it's orbit is slightly elliptical.
Because the orbit it elliptical, Io encounters differing gravitational fields, it is constantly stretched and squeezed by Jupiters intense gravity. This heats the interior of the small sattelite turning into a raging orgy of volcanic activity. You've got to remember, if it werent for jupiter and the other galilean sattelites, Io would be as cold and dead as Luna.
The same process is at work on Europa, only less intense. The surface is frozen solid, but the interior is probably molten. Life only probably exists there becuase of the... Gravi-Volcanic Activity*...
*(Gravitationally Induced Volcanic Activity)
Kuiper Belt objects are different. They have no heat, no energy input, and no way to be liquid. They are essentially what they are described as, chunks of ice at the outer edges of the solar system. The only chance for life in the Kuiper belt is silicon based life (Highly unlikely in our solar system) or if it coasts in on comets, alternatively hibernating during the millenia of deep freeze and revitalising during the few months that the comet will spend in the inner solar system when the ice thaws somewhat. Even then, there are incredible odds against life in the kuiper belt.
Even so, it is rich in organic compounds and may be used as a kind of fuelling point for interstellar explorers one day <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All that stuff's right and good (as far as I've heard). While Pioneer 10 is the first satellite to pass by Jupiter (1972), I think Voyager 2 was more influential in determining our current understanding of the Galilean moons, Jupiter itself, Saturn's rings, Triton and Saturn's rings (along with Uranus and Neptune).
<a href='http://www.solarviews.com/eng/history.htm' target='_blank'>The History of Space Exploration (including a by date listing of satellite visitation of celestial bodies)</a>
Except on the case of crashing something into Europa: Last I heard they didn't want to crash any Earthborne objects into Europa for fear of disrupting any life that could be there. Bacteria survive on probes that have gone out on shuttles and been brought back. Because Europa does not have an especially think atmosphere, dropping a satellite into the frozen/ice/slush ocean would deposit foreign life forms.
It's almost impossible to remove all the bacteria from satellites too, both the Voyagers probably have bacteria on them still <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (since they're about 30 years away now, it's kind of hard to know for sure).
As for Pluto: I consider it and Charon to be Kuiper belt objects.
Pluto a double 'planet' - as in, its orbit is synchronous with Charon (the same side of each planet is facing the same side of the other all the time), a feature none of our other planets exhibit.
Pluto is the smallest 'planet' in the solar system, it's also the furthest away, it should have been able to form its own core and collect itself into a gas giant. Barring that, it's still the smallest planet, and has little atmosphere (something it shares with Mercury, but all of the inner planets are mostly rock based).
Pluto has a highly elliptical orbit. It breaks Neptune's orbit and becomes the eighth planet from the sun for a substantial amount of time (as a note, all the other planets have fairly circular orbits, the next most elliptical is Mars and it's fairly circular (I don't have an astronomy book here, so I can't drop exact numbers)).
Finally, a convention of scientists was completely ready to revoke Pluto's planetary status, but were stopped by a bunch of kids who wanted to keep their 9 planets.
Actually, I just want them to find life in other parts of the solar system so I can turn to all the fundemantilist (read: extremist) christians and say, "HA!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you explain what you are Hah-ing? I mean I would totally like to do that too but, just because there are aliens out there dosen't mean there is no god.
*Note I still don't believe in one
Actually, I just want them to find life in other parts of the solar system so I can turn to all the fundemantilist (read: extremist) christians and say, "HA!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you explain what you are Hah-ing? I mean I would totally like to do that too but, just because there are aliens out there dosen't mean there is no god.
*Note I still don't believe in one <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would be the aspect that God created the Earth and then animals and then humans. Since assumingly he would have made that all on Earth.
Or maybe I'm missing it. It would probably disuade some hardcore bible people who think Earth is the only living bearing planet, other than that I don't see a big impact. I know it wouldn't effect any of my views any (except my scientific one on the existance of extra terrestial life).