The problem is that the stats, while useful, risk limiting what people consider "useful" playing.
How do you track whether primal scream is being used wisely? How do you track umbra? How do you determine if building chambers served a purpose or not? Is the rambo-super-accurate 'rine as useful as the solid-but-average team player?
Is the jetpacker who quietly hid above power-silo for half the game but then eventually built the PG that allowed the team to make the come-back victory more or less useful than the jetpacker who hid in some out of the way location for half the game and then came in at the end to help build the PG when the team was making it's final triumphant assault?
This is the problem we're getting at with stats, Forlorn, and the problem that in your constant prioritizing of only the uber-skilled individuals you seem to be missing. NS classic is so incredibly situationally dependant that many stats are near useless, since they're almost always going to be missing the contextual information.
I can see a case for stats on accuracy.. when you use a weapon, how well you use it is critical, but that's such a small part of NS, to be providing something that increases the focus on it seems to be folly to me.
No M1ke is saying wouldn't it be great if we had a way to have meaningful stats for ns and asking for ideas to make it happen. I think thats a great idea. My point being its either impossible or would be so time consuming as not to be a viable thing to create.
Thanks for your support Forlorn. I think what many people fear is that a stats program is just a big calculator that takes all your numbers and grinds them down to one abstract number that represents your quantitative "skill" which you are then ranked by. I know that this isn't possible to do in NS and I won't try. I just want people have be able to see fun and interesting stats about their gameplay. There will be no box saying "you are this good/n00b: xxx".
Also after a little research, it seems accuracy, damage done, etc may not be that hard after all. So I'm tenatively putting it back into the project, but maybe as a 2.0 type feature.
<!--QuoteBegin-M1ke+Mar 20 2004, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (M1ke @ Mar 20 2004, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also after a little research, it seems accuracy, damage done, etc may not be that hard after all. So I'm tenatively putting it back into the project, but maybe as a 2.0 type feature. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, accuracy and damage done have one major bug, at least if you use the mp_drawdamage text event to tell when damage is done. The problem is that when damage is dealt to a structure, the structure's pev->dmg_inflictor field is not properly set to the person who shot it. So basically, you can easily tell when a structure takes damage, however, you cannot tell who dealt that damage to the structure.
Also, when a fatal shot is dealt to a player, the mp_drawdamage text is not sent, period.
I've emailed Flayra about these problems already, and he said he makes no promises, but he will see if he can fix it if he finds time.
It's nice to see that your taking the advice of the opinions you enjoy, and not compensating with the ones you seem to disagree with <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But i also like your determination with the stats, and i hope you follow through with it, and if you need webhosting or something im here for free <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 20 2004, 05:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 20 2004, 05:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that the stats, while useful, risk limiting what people consider "useful" playing.
How do you track whether primal scream is being used wisely? How do you track umbra? How do you determine if building chambers served a purpose or not? Is the rambo-super-accurate 'rine as useful as the solid-but-average team player?
Is the jetpacker who quietly hid above power-silo for half the game but then eventually built the PG that allowed the team to make the come-back victory more or less useful than the jetpacker who hid in some out of the way location for half the game and then came in at the end to help build the PG when the team was making it's final triumphant assault?
This is the problem we're getting at with stats, Forlorn, and the problem that in your constant prioritizing of only the uber-skilled individuals you seem to be missing. NS classic is so incredibly situationally dependant that many stats are near useless, since they're almost always going to be missing the contextual information.
I can see a case for stats on accuracy.. when you use a weapon, how well you use it is critical, but that's such a small part of NS, to be providing something that increases the focus on it seems to be folly to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay this is getting rediculous.
How do you track umbra?
- Answer: You don't, nor do you have to
How do you track primal scream:
- Why would you want to
How do you determine if building chambers server a purpose or not?
- That's not what a statistic program is for, god
Is the rambo-super-accurate 'rine as useful as the solid-but-average team player?
- The stats program will help you determine this
Stats are nothing more than <b>tools</b> for the smart mind.
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+Mar 21 2004, 12:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Mar 21 2004, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tools for the smart mind to do what? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tools to understand the game, and how well the player interacts with it.
good luck with making this program cuz if you do it for NS and CO it'll be way way hard to capture all the diffrent things. but good luck and when it comes out and millions of people use it that'll be awesome
Thanks to everyone for your input. The NS Stats project is officially underway. I've created a website for the project at <a href='http://nsstats.go-network.biz/' target='_blank'>nsstats.go-network.biz</a>. I will continue to accept ideas and questions on the forums over there. I will occassionally update the community of our progress on these n-s.org forums.
I'm <i>still</i> looking to add more members to the team. If you're interested, you can apply there on the forums as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tools for the smart mind to do what?
Tools to understand the game, and how well the player interacts with it.
Stats help you intereact with the game and help you understand it?
How so? Elaborate?
I still don't see how seeing how many kills you have and deaths you have helps you understand the game, and how the gameplay is different from other Halflife Mods.
I dont see how stats tells you how to strategize, and do things beyond just killing and running around the map, gung ho.
Comments
How do you track whether primal scream is being used wisely?
How do you track umbra?
How do you determine if building chambers served a purpose or not?
Is the rambo-super-accurate 'rine as useful as the solid-but-average team player?
Is the jetpacker who quietly hid above power-silo for half the game but then eventually built the PG that allowed the team to make the come-back victory more or less useful than the jetpacker who hid in some out of the way location for half the game and then came in at the end to help build the PG when the team was making it's final triumphant assault?
This is the problem we're getting at with stats, Forlorn, and the problem that in your constant prioritizing of only the uber-skilled individuals you seem to be missing. NS classic is so incredibly situationally dependant that many stats are near useless, since they're almost always going to be missing the contextual information.
I can see a case for stats on accuracy.. when you use a weapon, how well you use it is critical, but that's such a small part of NS, to be providing something that increases the focus on it seems to be folly to me.
Also after a little research, it seems accuracy, damage done, etc may not be that hard after all. So I'm tenatively putting it back into the project, but maybe as a 2.0 type feature.
Well, accuracy and damage done have one major bug, at least if you use the mp_drawdamage text event to tell when damage is done. The problem is that when damage is dealt to a structure, the structure's pev->dmg_inflictor field is not properly set to the person who shot it. So basically, you can easily tell when a structure takes damage, however, you cannot tell who dealt that damage to the structure.
Also, when a fatal shot is dealt to a player, the mp_drawdamage text is not sent, period.
I've emailed Flayra about these problems already, and he said he makes no promises, but he will see if he can fix it if he finds time.
But i also like your determination with the stats, and i hope you follow through with it, and if you need webhosting or something im here for free <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
How do you track whether primal scream is being used wisely?
How do you track umbra?
How do you determine if building chambers served a purpose or not?
Is the rambo-super-accurate 'rine as useful as the solid-but-average team player?
Is the jetpacker who quietly hid above power-silo for half the game but then eventually built the PG that allowed the team to make the come-back victory more or less useful than the jetpacker who hid in some out of the way location for half the game and then came in at the end to help build the PG when the team was making it's final triumphant assault?
This is the problem we're getting at with stats, Forlorn, and the problem that in your constant prioritizing of only the uber-skilled individuals you seem to be missing. NS classic is so incredibly situationally dependant that many stats are near useless, since they're almost always going to be missing the contextual information.
I can see a case for stats on accuracy.. when you use a weapon, how well you use it is critical, but that's such a small part of NS, to be providing something that increases the focus on it seems to be folly to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay this is getting rediculous.
How do you track umbra?
- Answer: You don't, nor do you have to
How do you track primal scream:
- Why would you want to
How do you determine if building chambers server a purpose or not?
- That's not what a statistic program is for, god
Is the rambo-super-accurate 'rine as useful as the solid-but-average team player?
- The stats program will help you determine this
Stats are nothing more than <b>tools</b> for the smart mind.
Tools to understand the game, and how well the player interacts with it.
I'm <i>still</i> looking to add more members to the team. If you're interested, you can apply there on the forums as well.
Tools to understand the game, and how well the player interacts with it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stats help you intereact with the game and help you understand it?
How so? Elaborate?
I still don't see how seeing how many kills you have and deaths you have helps you understand the game, and how the gameplay is different from other Halflife Mods.
I dont see how stats tells you how to strategize, and do things beyond just killing and running around the map, gung ho.
(For ns atleast)
Good luck, M1ke.