<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lenin's government used the symbol first and Stalin simply adopted it in his attempt to ride Lenin's popularity to unopposed power, it isn't fair to say the definition of this icon lay solely in the hands of Stalin, it isn't really fair to credit him with it at all. In contrast Hitler solely applied the swastika to nazism, it doesn't really mean anything in the context of that organization except the definitions that Hitler applied to it.
Stay on topic
Symbols are not defined by the darkest name we can tie them to, and your definition of the cross and sickle as a symbol of the atrocities commited by the Stalinist regime is simply not accurate. The hammer and sickle signifies the union of the industrial and farming working forces for thier greater good, and its definition can be credited most acurately to its creator, Karl Marx. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not crediting him for all of it, just the attacks he made his cabinet planed involving the thousands killed in lack of tatics (I.e. Suicide waves) The torture, espeically purges- executing Pows-
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it doesn't really mean anything in the context of that organization except the definitions that Hitler applied to it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same could be said for both partys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Symbols are not defined by the darkest name we can tie them to<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But thats what there often rememberd for, no debate in that. Both will go down in history as remembered for such, with no doubt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and your definition of the cross and sickle as a symbol of the atrocities commited by the Stalinist regime is simply not accurate. The hammer and sickle signifies the union of the industrial and farming working forces for thier greater good, and its definition can be credited most acurately to its creator, Karl Marx. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stalin didnt create that symbol, already mentioned by you- but he took it over. Then he changed what it ment. here i'll put it out different...What good are farms when many of there occupients were eather purged or sent off to die in a suicide wave? i have no doubt this happened, and farms were quickly passed down or sold. Do you really believe stalin used everything for The countrys greater good? Or just his own? DICTATORSHIP. And serously, i bet if i put any effort into it China would turn out to be a dictatorship as well. Just ruled by another higher class status, Power hungry man/woman. So your denying people were killed>? The Purges>? The russian executing other russians? Wanna play the proof game?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You never said you were for, you never looked, so i assume until you provide fact. all people do it, not that its always right but you said nothing, and i doubt you would be pro anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Frankly I don't care about WN. If some white folks take pride in their ancestry and form a group to do whatever thats just fine by me. I'm completely apathetic to their existence until they give me reason to be otherwise.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That really doesnt say anything now does it>? its more like a verbal trap waiting for me to assume again so you can pounce. And i'm sure it does, you'd be suprised by how your life is affected through skin color. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how that could be a trap, I was just telling you you were wrong, you didn't even have to respond, just didn't wan't you to think you were right. And actually I know that my skin color is irrelevent to my self-hatred. I hate myself mostly because I'm human, and humans are terrible beings as a whole. The color of your skin doesn't really matter when you despise the whole species.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When in doubt pin it off and make me incompitent even tho you admit to a mistake (prolly because i kicked a$s on what i had said) but hey.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Take it as a victory if you want. Its obvious that I can't make you understand what I was trying to say, so theres no point in discussing it further.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*claps for you knowing the difference* What i had said was a small guesture of a recrutign move to get people intrested. Only to intise people. you blew it up and made a tactfull move.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it seems to have worked, you inticed me to waste my time trying to point out your hypocrisy. I don't really think it had much effect on the original discussion though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about all the people that died while that flag was hanging, when people of russian decent were purged in the name of stalin. Why can such an abomination fly while the same thing happened to hitler? Prosicute me for my political stance all you want too, just dont avoid the issue please.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't care less what Stalin made the H&S represent. I couldn't care less what Hitler made the swastika represent either. I regard displaying of these symbols as form of freedom of speech and/or expression. And by your logic I think you're right, if the swastika is banned the H&S should be as well. As should the displaying of just about any simbol there is, especially religious ones since most religions have had their run of murderous rampages at some point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you dont care eh? How can i argue the valididy of my points if "You dont care"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really care what WN is. I tried to explain to you why it was irrelevent to my point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The dead was the meat of my post, you should not of replied in my thread then. They where what i was talking about and still am.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was just pointing out that I found the hypocrisy in your argument amusing. You failed to see the hypocrisy and thus many posts were wasted whilst I tried to explain it to you. Maybe I shouldn't have posted, but maybe you shouldn't have tried to entice people with something that clearly has nothing to do with the dead you seem so fond of.
Its now 1:48 in the morning. I've beyond defended this thing like the alamo. and to my shock the orig point was lost when i mentioned WN, the dead- all of it Stalin Wasnt a dictator.....Obvously the posters here dont agree with me. I've said everything i know without jumping into heavy fact books to try and dazzle the lot of you. i got nothing new to say. i hope it was an entertaing read for some and i hope you can understand were my point was comming from. I'm out- Thanks for not locking it.
**Edit**
O now you jump in skulk, you had your shot 20 mins ago, i'm goin to bed.
I find this thread very interesting. For one thing, I have never heard of White Nationalism before, and my instinctive reaction was "oh jeez, not some racist Klan crap", but you surprised me, Afterglow. Well done. But on to the topic at hand....
Doesn't it really depend on the reaction of the people who browse these forums? I do know that there are quite a few anti-Communist members, and yes, a much larger amount of people who are anti-Nazi. Just about everyone is in the latter group, I'd say. Now, this brings up the issues of what the symbols of these two ideologies really represent, which you two have been discussing.
With regards to that I say it all comes down to how much it offends someone. Take swearing for example. Some words you can say, some words are censored out, because they are more offensive than the other words. Such is also the case with symbols, and the swastika is offensive to a larger percentage of people than the hammer and sickle. Asking whether that is a proper opinion from a factual standpoint is silly, as facts do not form the basis for the rules. The swastika is a symbol of hate groups and racist propaganda, and invokes strong feelings in a lot of people. It all basically comes down to what offends people more, and I would say the swastika has the hammer and sickle beaten hands down.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gadzuko+Mar 30 2004, 10:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Mar 30 2004, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it all comes down to how much it offends someone <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There we go. discussion over. If you are offended by something, let the person know, then ignore it. If you are not, dont worry about it.
You don't like the H&S? Thats nice for you. There are people who can see its other meanings, and all you are doing by demanding that is it banned is urinating on thier cornflakes.
To a fundamentalist muslim living in a country that endured heavy warfare at the hands of the USA, would they not see the US flag as a symbol of hypocrisy, hatred, and oppression?
Did you endure those years of war? Did you put up with the bigotry and hatred? Was Stalin directly responsible for the murder of a relative of yours?
There is a simple and easy philosophy I go by. If you see something you do not like, simply dont see it.
People are entitled to use whatever symbol they wish to convey whatever ideology they wish, provided that they do not push that ideology onto others.
The Hammer and Sickle is the symbol of the socialist ideology. I ask of you to present to me evidence, hard, solid, evidence that people immediately link Stalin to the Hammer and Sickle rather then simply spouting it off as any simpleton can do.
You dont like the hammer and sickle? Then simply dont see it.
I think this argument was over before it was started.
The fact that people don't get up in arms when they see the hammer and sickle is because for the most part they associate it with the <b>ideals</b> of communism/socialism, which in theory are quite nice. If they did associate it with the horrendous acts performed by those pretending to bring in those ideals then people would get offended by it.
Most people are offended by the swastika because for the most part they associate it with the evils of the nazis. Some people might not associate it with evil, so they won't be offended.
Most people dont get angered when they see a cross because they associate it with the ideals of the church and the good it has brought to people. They don't, for the most part, associate it with the crusades, or the many other evils that have been conducted in the name of religion.
Most people associate the pentagram with devils and evil, even though for wiccans it represents something quite different.
The 'meaning' of a symbol is tied to what the person viewing it believes it means. Thats the whole point of a symbol. It is created to represent something, but as time progresses its meaning may change. It doesn't matter what one person thinks it <b>should</b> stand for. The symbol of the swastika was corrupted by the nazis, and probably irreperably changed from a symbol of peace and life to a symbol of evil. Maybe it still <b>should</b> still stand for good, but for the vast majority of people it doesn't. The H&S symbol, although used in the name of great evils, still bears it original idealistic meaning for most people.
If you believe that the H&S <b>should</b> represent evil, then thats your opinion. It is not most people's opinion. Neither opinion is more correct than the other.
Sorry for being so late, but you know, a man has to sleep and work to survive...
<span style='color:red'>***Locked.***</span>
Afterglow, I won't accept a discussion style as agressive as yours in here. Stay objective, stay rational, stay, most of all, <i>respectfull</i>, or stay out.
Comments
Stay on topic
Symbols are not defined by the darkest name we can tie them to, and your definition of the cross and sickle as a symbol of the atrocities commited by the Stalinist regime is simply not accurate. The hammer and sickle signifies the union of the industrial and farming working forces for thier greater good, and its definition can be credited most acurately to its creator, Karl Marx. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not crediting him for all of it, just the attacks he made his cabinet planed involving
the thousands killed in lack of tatics (I.e. Suicide waves) The torture, espeically
purges- executing Pows-
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it doesn't really mean anything in the context of that organization except the definitions that Hitler applied to it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same could be said for both partys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Symbols are not defined by the darkest name we can tie them to<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But thats what there often rememberd for, no debate in that. Both will go down in
history as remembered for such, with no doubt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and your definition of the cross and sickle as a symbol of the atrocities commited by the Stalinist regime is simply not accurate. The hammer and sickle signifies the union of the industrial and farming working forces for thier greater good, and its definition can be credited most acurately to its creator, Karl Marx. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stalin didnt create that symbol, already mentioned by you- but he took it over.
Then he changed what it ment. here i'll put it out different...What good are farms
when many of there occupients were eather purged or sent off to die in a suicide
wave? i have no doubt this happened, and farms were quickly passed down or
sold. Do you really believe stalin used everything for The countrys greater good?
Or just his own? DICTATORSHIP. And serously, i bet if i put any effort into it China
would turn out to be a dictatorship as well. Just ruled by another higher class
status, Power hungry man/woman. So your denying people were killed>? The
Purges>? The russian executing other russians? Wanna play the proof game?
You never said you were for, you never looked, so i assume until you provide fact.
all people do it, not that its always right but you said nothing, and i doubt you
would be pro anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly I don't care about WN. If some white folks take pride in their ancestry and form a group to do whatever thats just fine by me. I'm completely apathetic to their existence until they give me reason to be otherwise.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That really doesnt say anything now does it>? its more like a verbal trap waiting
for me to assume again so you can pounce. And i'm sure it does, you'd be suprised
by how your life is affected through skin color.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how that could be a trap, I was just telling you you were wrong, you didn't even have to respond, just didn't wan't you to think you were right. And actually I know that my skin color is irrelevent to my self-hatred. I hate myself mostly because I'm human, and humans are terrible beings as a whole. The color of your skin doesn't really matter when you despise the whole species.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
When in doubt pin it off and make me incompitent even tho you admit to a mistake
(prolly because i kicked a$s on what i had said) but hey.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take it as a victory if you want. Its obvious that I can't make you understand what I was trying to say, so theres no point in discussing it further.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*claps for you knowing
the difference* What i had said was a small guesture of a recrutign move to get
people intrested. Only to intise people. you blew it up and made a tactfull move.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it seems to have worked, you inticed me to waste my time trying to point out your hypocrisy. I don't really think it had much effect on the original discussion though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about all the people that
died while that flag was hanging, when people of russian decent were purged in the
name of stalin. Why can such an abomination fly while the same thing happened to
hitler? Prosicute me for my political stance all you want too, just dont avoid the
issue please.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't care less what Stalin made the H&S represent. I couldn't care less what Hitler made the swastika represent either. I regard displaying of these symbols as form of freedom of speech and/or expression. And by your logic I think you're right, if the swastika is banned the H&S should be as well. As should the displaying of just about any simbol there is, especially religious ones since most religions have had their run of murderous rampages at some point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you dont care eh? How can i argue the valididy of my points if "You dont care"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really care what WN is. I tried to explain to you why it was irrelevent to my point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The dead was the meat of my post, you should not of replied in my thread then.
They where what i was talking about and still am.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just pointing out that I found the hypocrisy in your argument amusing. You failed to see the hypocrisy and thus many posts were wasted whilst I tried to explain it to you. Maybe I shouldn't have posted, but maybe you shouldn't have tried to entice people with something that clearly has nothing to do with the dead you seem so fond of.
and to my shock the orig point was lost when i mentioned WN, the dead- all of it
Stalin Wasnt a dictator.....Obvously the posters here dont agree with me. I've
said everything i know without jumping into heavy fact books to try and dazzle the
lot of you. i got nothing new to say. i hope it was an entertaing read for some and
i hope you can understand were my point was comming from. I'm out- Thanks for
not locking it.
**Edit**
O now you jump in skulk, you had your shot 20 mins ago, i'm goin to bed.
Doesn't it really depend on the reaction of the people who browse these forums? I do know that there are quite a few anti-Communist members, and yes, a much larger amount of people who are anti-Nazi. Just about everyone is in the latter group, I'd say. Now, this brings up the issues of what the symbols of these two ideologies really represent, which you two have been discussing.
With regards to that I say it all comes down to how much it offends someone. Take swearing for example. Some words you can say, some words are censored out, because they are more offensive than the other words. Such is also the case with symbols, and the swastika is offensive to a larger percentage of people than the hammer and sickle. Asking whether that is a proper opinion from a factual standpoint is silly, as facts do not form the basis for the rules. The swastika is a symbol of hate groups and racist propaganda, and invokes strong feelings in a lot of people. It all basically comes down to what offends people more, and I would say the swastika has the hammer and sickle beaten hands down.
There we go. discussion over. If you are offended by something, let the person know, then ignore it. If you are not, dont worry about it.
You don't like the H&S? Thats nice for you. There are people who can see its other meanings, and all you are doing by demanding that is it banned is urinating on thier cornflakes.
To a fundamentalist muslim living in a country that endured heavy warfare at the hands of the USA, would they not see the US flag as a symbol of hypocrisy, hatred, and oppression?
Did you endure those years of war? Did you put up with the bigotry and hatred? Was Stalin directly responsible for the murder of a relative of yours?
There is a simple and easy philosophy I go by. If you see something you do not like, simply dont see it.
People are entitled to use whatever symbol they wish to convey whatever ideology they wish, provided that they do not push that ideology onto others.
The Hammer and Sickle is the symbol of the socialist ideology. I ask of you to present to me evidence, hard, solid, evidence that people immediately link Stalin to the Hammer and Sickle rather then simply spouting it off as any simpleton can do.
You dont like the hammer and sickle? Then simply dont see it.
The fact that people don't get up in arms when they see the hammer and sickle is because for the most part they associate it with the <b>ideals</b> of communism/socialism, which in theory are quite nice. If they did associate it with the horrendous acts performed by those pretending to bring in those ideals then people would get offended by it.
Most people are offended by the swastika because for the most part they associate it with the evils of the nazis. Some people might not associate it with evil, so they won't be offended.
Most people dont get angered when they see a cross because they associate it with the ideals of the church and the good it has brought to people. They don't, for the most part, associate it with the crusades, or the many other evils that have been conducted in the name of religion.
Most people associate the pentagram with devils and evil, even though for wiccans it represents something quite different.
The 'meaning' of a symbol is tied to what the person viewing it believes it means. Thats the whole point of a symbol. It is created to represent something, but as time progresses its meaning may change. It doesn't matter what one person thinks it <b>should</b> stand for. The symbol of the swastika was corrupted by the nazis, and probably irreperably changed from a symbol of peace and life to a symbol of evil. Maybe it still <b>should</b> still stand for good, but for the vast majority of people it doesn't. The H&S symbol, although used in the name of great evils, still bears it original idealistic meaning for most people.
If you believe that the H&S <b>should</b> represent evil, then thats your opinion. It is not most people's opinion. Neither opinion is more correct than the other.
<reported> Not based on the topic, based on the *cough* quality of responses.
<span style='color:red'>***Locked.***</span>
Afterglow, I won't accept a discussion style as agressive as yours in here. Stay objective, stay rational, stay, most of all, <i>respectfull</i>, or stay out.