Ayumi will be prefered over Veil once it's perfectly balanced (recent tweaks such as the weldable Gorge Hideout door made it suitable for casual clan play) , though the nice looking steam particles will always lag the server a bit.
No offense to KFS , but Veil is much less enjoyable than Eclipse , it feels like an arena. An arena with lots of eye candy , but with little atmosphere.
Hera has been horribly mutilated to "reduce lag" ... people who cry for having a 3 digit ping shouldn't play NS , imho.
Bast creates a negligible lag and was by far the nicest 1.04 NS map , it was a crime to remove it in beta 3.
Caged and Nothing are both very fun to play , with a varied gameplay. They witness epic battles , some of the most enjoyable NS experiences.
As for Agora... it's just the best among the pack of new maps in 3.0 , with an impressive architecture , and a well thought out design. Res nodes were surgically placed , the map has been thoroughly playtested , tweaked , and is now mostly balanced. Its haters never took the time to devise new strategies (other than the slash and burn / all elec) adapted to its unique layout and features , and have no right to criticize it. If that map is deemed "unsuitable for clan play" then it only proves that clan play is even more limited than casual play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->though the nice looking steam particles will always lag the server a bit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A small amount of large particles will be heavy only for clients, not the server. However, a large amount of particles may be a pain for the server depending on how they are handled, if they are strictly client side it would not constitute a problem at all, only the clients would have slightly higher CPU usage and the only strain on the server is that of having an additional entitity that generates the particles.
This may have been discussed before but I can't find the answer. Are particles handled on the client side to avoid strain on the server? If they are then heavy particle systems could be allowable even in official maps if they are only turned on when the user has high-detail particles turned on.
For particles to cause a large strain for the graphics card the need to consume alot of fillrate, for this they need to be big. For them to cause a large strain on the CPU they simply need to be many(VERY, several thousands).
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Apr 3 2004, 05:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Apr 3 2004, 05:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This may have been discussed before but I can't find the answer. Are particles handled on the client side to avoid strain on the server? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been wondering the same thing. I'd love to hear some sort of official word on the use of particle systems. I'm working on a map right now with a nice rain effect that will be visible through several windows throughout the map. I'd like to know how many rain particles I can use before it will start causing problems for people. Is the server going to have to constantly update each entity and keep track of all the sprites? If I make it a high-detail only system, what does that do for the server?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the purposes of the entity limit particle systems aren't any worse than anything else. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not for server CPU usage(calculating the movement of the particles is quite cheap, if that is handled server side. Half-life's cheesy entity handling is expensive), but what about bandwidth?, sending thousands of particles in each update from the server would cause alot of lag on most servers.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
One thing I want to know is what is the topic of this thread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Plaguebearer+Apr 3 2004, 11:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Plaguebearer @ Apr 3 2004, 11:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Arent the actual particles client-side?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's correct. Each particle system placed by the mapper takes up exactly one entity. The actual particles themselves are not entites and are handled by a seperate particle library. Particles are simulated on the client (for drawing) and the server (for detecting when to spawn new systems), but the simulations don't interact, so there's no extra network traffic.
Honestly, most 'scrim worthy' maps are mildly more boring than more dynamic maps like Agora. Theres a limited amount of strategy involved in whats essentially a tic-tac-toe grid of resnodes on ns_veil. Some of the most boring maps are highly static or predictable ones - like nancy and mineshaft.
Larger maps have a potential for alot more depth. Simplicity in design and looks for some maps is more of a necessary evil for gameplay than a desperate necessity to be a good competitive map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-oOTOo+Mar 30 2004, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (oOTOo @ Mar 30 2004, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> KFS > About gameplays : depending on the maps we are talking about, some are better than others. But even ns_bast, who was said to have a bad gameplay, was still played a lot online and i personally loved it each time --> because of its atmosphere. But the general players you talk about, they never play FFA, they only play scrims, so they don't care anymore about atmosphere. There is only the gameplay for them. A map could be built with white square walls and they would say : cool ! if the gameplay remains ok. And here is my critic : the NS community is large enough for everybody, including those who want straight gameplay and those who appreciate atmospheres.
KFS, if you don't light your eclipse or veil like they are currently, if you darken them (in order to get "darker atmosphere") i mean, these guys will say that your map sucks not because of the gameplay but because THEY think that dark atmosphere sucks and has no place in gameplay, no matter what I (a ffa player) or others think. It means no more Hera, Bast, Nothing, Caged, Origin, Mineshaft, Nancy, etc.. famous and appreciated maps too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I couldn't agree more. Normal people can't appreciate if person does a map for a year. If everybody would think as the KFS, there'd be no mappers. Bast creator was a very good example of this. (he left the community if I remember right) And if those "omg, fu" -players give me the best opinion, I couldnt care less about the gameplay.
It's annoying when people say "only real (pro?) players out there can tell the right opinion of your map" Their opinion is not better than ours(mappers, eh). A person who has made own map (he doesnt have to be pro mapper) is able to <b>appreciate right things</b>) He can say how well has the mapper succeeded. Everyone could do a map, a MAP - I mean everyone could draw a map on a blank paper. Then everyone could show it to a player and player would say "mm.. overlay is good..balanced, following 5e10 guides and guidelines - ill surely love it" Then everyone would make a map with white walls. Guess does the player appreciate it ? Can you appreciate the atmosphere and look any better now ?
This subject is arguing the definition of "a good map". Again, make an own map and think twice.
If you say a map is good if it's popular - you're wrong. Because most people are players (not mappers), they appreciate more gameplay then map, therefore they dont give value for right things.
For my defintion of a good map, it's a map where the author has done something special. Not another eclipse, not another tanith. He has succeeded in a one thing. It can atmosphere, it can gameplay. When he has succeeded well, making something exceptional - that kind of a map is a good map.
If you can't appreciate anything except gameplay, go and play veil 314159265 hours.
ps. Kouji San, heh, they just dont like talking about the subject <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ps. Like I said in another thread, NS should change so many types of maps would be playable
I personally feel that the map design has to create gameplay and balance that players enjoy.
I could care less if you spent 30 min making a map or 5 years, if players dont like it especially because it is too laggy or unbalanced the map IS a Bad Map.
Who cares if it has a good atmosphere and the textures are all unique and perfectly applid if no one plays it, which brings me to another point... if you are not willing to play the map 5 times in a row, no one else will either for the most part.
Form follows function, not the other way around. Therefore even if you dont like making a particular style of map, if it is the only type that is liked by players, to bad for you <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS: as a reminder read my sig reguarding an aspect of this.
A map is not a simple thing. It's not like a painting, you need to play in it of course. It's always combination of (atleast) these two: gameplay and look.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could care less if you spent 30 min making a map or 5 years, if players dont like it especially because it is too laggy or unbalanced the map IS a Bad Map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Laggy? That's the lousiest argument, ever. I can understand thirteen-year old teens can't stand three digit latency but for everybody else, that kind of argument tells just the person beeing a bit too picky. And I'm not saying I'm old. Anyways, lagging is a thing that can be fixed. It's not telling whether the map is good or not.
For the balance. Let's take an edge case. (I'm not sure is that the word, but you get the point) Edge case is a best way to analyze this kind of thing. That's also good if analyze tactics. It tells the cruel truth. So, which one is the most loved, a map with white walls and perfect gameplay or a map with awesome look but zero-gameplay. Thats not enough? Well make thousand gameplay-oriented maps with always different idea (overlay?). Try to make them so varying you can. Then make thousand map with always different but awesome look. Which one will you get bored with first? Which one of the types (gameplay or look-oriented) starts to resemble each other first. With which one do you run out of options first ?
EDIT: It's true that white-wall map could be lots of fun but is it more valuable than a another one with better look but worse gameplay ?
And oh please, dont say you measure map's value with its popularity. Isn't it that real artists' work is appreciated only after their death? (don't take it so seriously then ok <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Soo.
I'm not saying balance and gameplay is thing that should be underestimated, it's just a thing that are over-appereciated by players. I'm not saying I'm even-handed, I'm actually very biased. I'm not saying doing map 3,1415 years makes it good.
I'm saying a map needs both good look and good gameplay to be good. Good map has no weaknesses. I'm saying we all are just too superficial to say we care only about what's inside (=gameplay) not the appearance or look. This is true in real life (and I'm not talking about people) I'm saying a real mapper knows how well a map has been done. Mere players dont. Players can say how much they enjoyed playing it but that opinion is based too much on own values and experience. For example, players barely notice there's nice electrical "field" around the Eclipse's Triad Generators. Look good ? "I've seen better." When a real mapper sees sucha thing first time he/she says: "Wow! With hl engine that's merely possible. Nice job - must have needed lots of work."
EDIT: ok triad's thingy was a bad example
Do you now understand why mappers can tell the about the map better ?
There will be always people who appreciate gameplay and people who appreciate look. And they may not ever understand each other.
ps. When do we stop arguing and start making good maps ? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Having recently begun the endeavour of making my first ns_map, I'd have to say that it's neither the players nor the mappers who are the best judge -it's both!
When I began my map I went through all the ns_maps I had (and all the co_maps too) looking for features that either added a lot to gameplay or added a lot to looks, not to mention various ways of getting around r_speeds etc.
I found that as a mapper I started noticing all the texturing and cool effects that improve the <i>ambience</i> of a map, helping to convince the player that he really is on an abandoned outpost/mining colony/deep space vessel etc. I then spent about a week watching the <i>Alien</i> films, paying close attention to the corridors, atmosphere and such. Having purchased the <i>Alien Quadrilogy</i> boxed-set DVD package, I was able to go through all the concept art from the four films (let's just say there's a lot that never made it to the big screen). In particular Ron Cobb's work for <i>Alien</i> was particularly inspiring, which is why I may name my map after him (although it lacks dynamism somehow, don't you think?).
During this 'research period' I began the top-down view of the map (nothing to detailed, just a basic spider layout). In literary circles when critiquing a novel you make observations about its <i>style</i> and <i>content</i>. I think that the same can be said of maps and most artistic creations. As a player or NS I can appreciate the relationship between the two, although a player will always be more conscious of the gameplay (content).
As such I have really concentrated on the distribution of corridors, hives, resource nodes etc. while keeping the environment appealing. Maps don't have to be one or the other, they can be both.
Unfortunately I am as of yet unable to show you any examples of my ideas as I haven't begun the lighting or texturing stage of my map, instead preferring to setup a good structure which can then be roughly textured in line for a beta (more an alpha if you will) test.
Hopefully I'll be able to finish it before or while on my year abroad or it may just become yet another dead map. Wish me luck!
<!--QuoteBegin-NetBent+Mar 30 2004, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NetBent @ Mar 30 2004, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yup, I guess everywhere you go you do find some. People will always have different tastes in maps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maps are like wine, an acquired taste.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
whats with all the resurrected topics on these forums lately. WTH are these ppl doing all day,just skimmin through the forum pages reading every topic of the past year?
<!--QuoteBegin-InZaneFleaArmy+Mar 30 2004, 12:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (InZaneFleaArmy @ Mar 30 2004, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sick of people saying Bast sucked. Bast rocks. Period. It's tough... You can't win Bast without a bunch of teamwork. You may not notice it but it's true. I love Bast, and can't wait for it to be redone -.- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Remove/ fix the rotating door and some of the INSANE world poly counts, and bast will be king again...
as it is, I can hardly play it. Any other map, even in a 12v12 (yes, i've played em) is a nice, steady 30 or so FPS even with my onboard driver... on ns_bast I fall to around 10 average FPS with as little as 0=1 fps spikes (according to cl_showfps)
same with co_rebirth, but there is a leak in that level (I think, it certainly looks like one) that causes that...
the dodgy stuttering framerate in rebirth is a result of merls + cageys rad and vis tools as far as i can gather... i guarantee if he compiles it with the original zhlt 2.53 hlrad + hlvis (like i use), itd get rid of it
edit: i found this out with teabag, framerate was horrible until i went back to the original tools
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 29 2004, 02:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 29 2004, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to insult them, threaten to send their .bsps to nz-nexus. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> dude stop bashing nexus hes gone forget about him
<!--QuoteBegin-Chrono+Aug 29 2004, 05:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chrono @ Aug 29 2004, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 29 2004, 02:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 29 2004, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to insult them, threaten to send their .bsps to nz-nexus. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> dude stop bashing nexus hes gone forget about him <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ... and if you want to bash anyone, maybe you should start with people that are slow as hell, even if they only have to convert a model *stares at chrono*
Another decent thread that's been churned up and taken off-topic. Personally, I'm sick of seeing yet another Nexus bashing thread. As has been said, he's gone, he's been banned, let's forget about it and move on.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ron2K+Aug 31 2004, 01:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ron2K @ Aug 31 2004, 01:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another decent thread that's been churned up and taken off-topic. Personally, I'm sick of seeing yet another Nexus bashing thread. As has been said, he's gone, he's been banned, let's forget about it and move on.
Reported this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> but fact is that this is unforgiveable <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
insult a mapper? its easy: 1. let him start mapping 2. let him do some really great locations 3. wait till he is at 95% done 4. abduct him to an abandoned isle, where he never will see any pc again
it may happen this:
5.a he starves (mapper arent able to fetch some food because of their weakness) 5.b he dies while trying to "redesign" a palmtree (coconut on the head = ouch!) 5.c YOU will see the first mapper in history who: - will swim over 500km to reach civilisation again - will walk over 1000km to reach your city - "vertex manipulates" your body <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
No offense to KFS , but Veil is much less enjoyable than Eclipse , it feels like an arena. An arena with lots of eye candy , but with little atmosphere.
Hera has been horribly mutilated to "reduce lag" ... people who cry for having a 3 digit ping shouldn't play NS , imho.
Bast creates a negligible lag and was by far the nicest 1.04 NS map , it was a crime to remove it in beta 3.
Caged and Nothing are both very fun to play , with a varied gameplay. They witness epic battles , some of the most enjoyable NS experiences.
As for Agora... it's just the best among the pack of new maps in 3.0 , with an impressive architecture , and a well thought out design. Res nodes were surgically placed , the map has been thoroughly playtested , tweaked , and is now mostly balanced.
Its haters never took the time to devise new strategies (other than the slash and burn / all elec) adapted to its unique layout and features , and have no right to criticize it. If that map is deemed "unsuitable for clan play" then it only proves that clan play is even more limited than casual play.
A small amount of large particles will be heavy only for clients, not the server. However, a large amount of particles may be a pain for the server depending on how they are handled, if they are strictly client side it would not constitute a problem at all, only the clients would have slightly higher CPU usage and the only strain on the server is that of having an additional entitity that generates the particles.
This may have been discussed before but I can't find the answer. Are particles handled on the client side to avoid strain on the server? If they are then heavy particle systems could be allowable even in official maps if they are only turned on when the user has high-detail particles turned on.
For particles to cause a large strain for the graphics card the need to consume alot of fillrate, for this they need to be big. For them to cause a large strain on the CPU they simply need to be many(VERY, several thousands).
I've been wondering the same thing. I'd love to hear some sort of official word on the use of particle systems. I'm working on a map right now with a nice rain effect that will be visible through several windows throughout the map. I'd like to know how many rain particles I can use before it will start causing problems for people. Is the server going to have to constantly update each entity and keep track of all the sprites? If I make it a high-detail only system, what does that do for the server?
Not for server CPU usage(calculating the movement of the particles is quite cheap, if that is handled server side. Half-life's cheesy entity handling is expensive), but what about bandwidth?, sending thousands of particles in each update from the server would cause alot of lag on most servers.
Somekind of random discussion?
That's correct. Each particle system placed by the mapper takes up exactly one entity. The actual particles themselves are not entites and are handled by a seperate particle library. Particles are simulated on the client (for drawing) and the server (for detecting when to spawn new systems), but the simulations don't interact, so there's no extra network traffic.
Larger maps have a potential for alot more depth. Simplicity in design and looks for some maps is more of a necessary evil for gameplay than a desperate necessity to be a good competitive map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
KFS, if you don't light your eclipse or veil like they are currently, if you darken them (in order to get "darker atmosphere") i mean, these guys will say that your map sucks not because of the gameplay but because THEY think that dark atmosphere sucks and has no place in gameplay, no matter what I (a ffa player) or others think. It means no more Hera, Bast, Nothing, Caged, Origin, Mineshaft, Nancy, etc.. famous and appreciated maps too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more. Normal people can't appreciate if person does a map for a year. If everybody would think as the KFS, there'd be no mappers. Bast creator was a very good example of this. (he left the community if I remember right) And if those "omg, fu" -players give me the best opinion, I couldnt care less about the gameplay.
It's annoying when people say "only real (pro?) players out there can tell the right opinion of your map" Their opinion is not better than ours(mappers, eh). A person who has made own map (he doesnt have to be pro mapper) is able to <b>appreciate right things</b>) He can say how well has the mapper succeeded. Everyone could do a map, a MAP - I mean everyone could draw a map on a blank paper. Then everyone could show it to a player and player would say "mm.. overlay is good..balanced, following 5e10 guides and guidelines - ill surely love it" Then everyone would make a map with white walls. Guess does the player appreciate it ? Can you appreciate the atmosphere and look any better now ?
This subject is arguing the definition of "a good map". Again, make an own map and think twice.
If you say a map is good if it's popular - you're wrong. Because most people are players (not mappers), they appreciate more gameplay then map, therefore they dont give value for right things.
For my defintion of a good map, it's a map where the author has done something special. Not another eclipse, not another tanith. He has succeeded in a one thing. It can atmosphere, it can gameplay. When he has succeeded well, making something exceptional - that kind of a map is a good map.
If you can't appreciate anything except gameplay, go and play veil 314159265 hours.
ps. Kouji San, heh, they just dont like talking about the subject <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ps. Like I said in another thread, NS should change so many types of maps would be playable
I could care less if you spent 30 min making a map or 5 years, if players dont like it especially because it is too laggy or unbalanced the map IS a Bad Map.
Who cares if it has a good atmosphere and the textures are all unique and perfectly applid if no one plays it, which brings me to another point... if you are not willing to play the map 5 times in a row, no one else will either for the most part.
Form follows function, not the other way around. Therefore even if you dont like making a particular style of map, if it is the only type that is liked by players, to bad for you <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS: as a reminder read my sig reguarding an aspect of this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could care less if you spent 30 min making a map or 5 years, if players dont like it especially because it is too laggy or unbalanced the map IS a Bad Map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Laggy? That's the lousiest argument, ever. I can understand thirteen-year old teens can't stand three digit latency but for everybody else, that kind of argument tells just the person beeing a bit too picky. And I'm not saying I'm old. Anyways, lagging is a thing that can be fixed. It's not telling whether the map is good or not.
For the balance. Let's take an edge case. (I'm not sure is that the word, but you get the point) Edge case is a best way to analyze this kind of thing. That's also good if analyze tactics. It tells the cruel truth. So, which one is the most loved, a map with white walls and perfect gameplay or a map with awesome look but zero-gameplay. Thats not enough? Well make thousand gameplay-oriented maps with always different idea (overlay?). Try to make them so varying you can. Then make thousand map with always different but awesome look. Which one will you get bored with first? Which one of the types (gameplay or look-oriented) starts to resemble each other first. With which one do you run out of options first ?
EDIT: It's true that white-wall map could be lots of fun but is it more valuable than a another one with better look but worse gameplay ?
And oh please, dont say you measure map's value with its popularity. Isn't it that real artists' work is appreciated only after their death? (don't take it so seriously then ok <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Soo.
I'm not saying balance and gameplay is thing that should be underestimated, it's just a thing that are over-appereciated by players.
I'm not saying I'm even-handed, I'm actually very biased.
I'm not saying doing map 3,1415 years makes it good.
I'm saying a map needs both good look and good gameplay to be good. Good map has no weaknesses.
I'm saying we all are just too superficial to say we care only about what's inside (=gameplay) not the appearance or look. This is true in real life (and I'm not talking about people)
I'm saying a real mapper knows how well a map has been done. Mere players dont. Players can say how much they enjoyed playing it but that opinion is based too much on own values and experience. For example, players barely notice there's nice electrical "field" around the Eclipse's Triad Generators. Look good ? "I've seen better." When a real mapper sees sucha thing first time he/she says: "Wow! With hl engine that's merely possible. Nice job - must have needed lots of work."
EDIT: ok triad's thingy was a bad example
Do you now understand why mappers can tell the about the map better ?
There will be always people who appreciate gameplay and people who appreciate look. And they may not ever understand each other.
ps. When do we stop arguing and start making good maps ? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When I began my map I went through all the ns_maps I had (and all the co_maps too) looking for features that either added a lot to gameplay or added a lot to looks, not to mention various ways of getting around r_speeds etc.
I found that as a mapper I started noticing all the texturing and cool effects that improve the <i>ambience</i> of a map, helping to convince the player that he really is on an abandoned outpost/mining colony/deep space vessel etc. I then spent about a week watching the <i>Alien</i> films, paying close attention to the corridors, atmosphere and such. Having purchased the <i>Alien Quadrilogy</i> boxed-set DVD package, I was able to go through all the concept art from the four films (let's just say there's a lot that never made it to the big screen). In particular Ron Cobb's work for <i>Alien</i> was particularly inspiring, which is why I may name my map after him (although it lacks dynamism somehow, don't you think?).
During this 'research period' I began the top-down view of the map (nothing to detailed, just a basic spider layout). In literary circles when critiquing a novel you make observations about its <i>style</i> and <i>content</i>. I think that the same can be said of maps and most artistic creations. As a player or NS I can appreciate the relationship between the two, although a player will always be more conscious of the gameplay (content).
As such I have really concentrated on the distribution of corridors, hives, resource nodes etc. while keeping the environment appealing. Maps don't have to be one or the other, they can be both.
Unfortunately I am as of yet unable to show you any examples of my ideas as I haven't begun the lighting or texturing stage of my map, instead preferring to setup a good structure which can then be roughly textured in line for a beta (more an alpha if you will) test.
Hopefully I'll be able to finish it before or while on my year abroad or it may just become yet another dead map. Wish me luck!
ns_tbc@20%
Maps are like wine, an acquired taste.
Remove/ fix the rotating door and some of the INSANE world poly counts, and bast will be king again...
as it is, I can hardly play it. Any other map, even in a 12v12 (yes, i've played em) is a nice, steady 30 or so FPS even with my onboard driver... on ns_bast I fall to around 10 average FPS with as little as 0=1 fps spikes (according to cl_showfps)
same with co_rebirth, but there is a leak in that level (I think, it certainly looks like one) that causes that...
edit: i found this out with teabag, framerate was horrible until i went back to the original tools
All I know is it seemed to act like a leak... yet the lighting had still run 0o'
Annoys the **** outa me... my vid driver hates that level, and I've seen people with even 9800XT's and up complaining about poor fps!
dude stop bashing nexus hes gone forget about him
dude stop bashing nexus hes gone forget about him <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and if you want to bash anyone, maybe you should start with people that are slow as hell, even if they only have to convert a model *stares at chrono*
dude stop bashing nexus hes gone forget about him <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He deserves it.
Reported this thread.
Reported this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
but fact is that this is unforgiveable <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
insult a mapper?
its easy:
1. let him start mapping
2. let him do some really great locations
3. wait till he is at 95% done
4. abduct him to an abandoned isle, where he never will see any pc again
it may happen this:
5.a he starves (mapper arent able to fetch some food because of their weakness)
5.b he dies while trying to "redesign" a palmtree (coconut on the head = ouch!)
5.c YOU will see the first mapper in history who:
- will swim over 500km to reach civilisation again
- will walk over 1000km to reach your city
- "vertex manipulates" your body <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->