If you dont want to marines to respawn you could easily just use a regular ns_ map. Just make a little box up next to the readyroom or something so that it wouldnt be in the game map. I can see problems with this though, if you wanted aliens to upgrade as they spawned you would have to use combat seeing as how there isn't any real opertunity to build or anything with this setup so aliens would have no upgrading ability, just a skulk fest. Also if there was no access to comm chair marines couldnt respawn, I dont know if you would want them too I am just presenting a probelem there might be. As for the hive, you can easily encase the hive behind a wall, heck is the wall is close enough aliens could even heal through it is they wanted too. But if it was a regular ns_ map you would only have 1 hive yet there would be 3 hive tab thingys as aliens, which would be more simplified useing combat. as for killing the marines if they dont get out in 30 sec, that may be a little unnessesary, just make the marines get pushed out of the start, which would also still work for combat, when you spawn you just start flying when you spawn out of the start. If you were really good you could do something resempleing the QUOTE <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would it be possible to make it into a forward spawning scenario? Like if the marines get to a certain point in the map(1/3 of the way or so) they spawn in that area instead of having to start from the beginning. Maybe have those forward spawn outposts guarded by turrets to keep out skulks or lerks looking to get ahead of the marines. And what would be the incentive for the marines to run? Maybe after a time limit, areas that the marines are supposed to be escaping from spawn O towers, and D chambers to give the aliens an advantage. Just my 2 cents. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you could just make a series of push entities, turning on after the marines had gotten so far, that wind through the corridors a certain distance. That would also help lost aliend that say go through the vent that leads to the marine start from not being ablt to find marines, they would just get "pushed" like 500 mph in the direction the marines are going. I wouldnt recomend useing vents to the point of abuse for aliens, just make corridors the push you say one little bit(like a small cube size, but flat) at like 500000 mph so its a one way only corridor. Else how are people who turn onos going to get through? You might want to really consider the teleporting, like leading to the "one way" corridors, but dont make them look like say, the regular halflife teleporters, make like little alien growth tunnels that like curve(you never see the end of the curve because you get teleported) and lead to all of these different places(the places with exits would also have tunnels that curve) but I'm not sure you would want to make you able to go back, like reverse, like from some oneway corridor back to the hive cause this could also work as a way of preventing the marines from camping/attacking the alien spawn. As for the waiting to join from the ready room, easily simplifeied, just make it to where after the round starts doors close on the readyroom access. I know this isnt a fullproof method but it would keep most people out, some could still just type "jointeamone" in the console, but it wouldnt be that big a deal if they were resembling the counterstrike style, only lasing 5 min. People wouldnt get that bored if you closed off all the join things execpt for info_spectate. I really only think that one marine should have to reach the escape, I guess it really depends on which gameplay you use ns_ or co_. But if they have to get them all through say, then once say like 3/4 of them get through and are sent on spectate. Well then the last 1/4 will be fighting the entire team of aliens all by themself enevitable ending the gave after they are getting murdered for the remaining 5 min or whatever.
Um, well..... ......I think I got all I can think of in. Hope you appriciate my 2 cents.
why not make a huge trigger_multiple that covers the maze so everyone has to leave the trigger_multiple (at the escape point) before the trigger will fire,
great idea but i'm afraid players will just run to the exit and there will be not much shooting and attacking <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you want it a bit more exiting make a few objectives like so: go start up the emergency generator(requires welding, at least 2 routes for marines to take for all objectives), weld in to the command center(requires nothing but welding)/crawl through lots of confusing ducts to get into the command center, go activate the emergency beacon(requires generator to be on and is located in the command center), go to the escape pods(requires all of the above).
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Apr 21 2004, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Apr 21 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want it a bit more exiting make a few objectives like so: go start up the emergency generator(requires welding, at least 2 routes for marines to take for all objectives), weld in to the command center(requires nothing but welding)/crawl through lots of confusing ducts to get into the command center, go activate the emergency beacon(requires generator to be on and is located in the command center), go to the escape pods(requires all of the above).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that sounds like a good plan to me. having multiple tasks to complete would make it more interesting that simple "marines run, aliens kill". maybe the aliens could have some kind of task(s) to do besides just stop the marines from escaping?
this whole idea sounds exciting and it just might work. i'll be watching for more progress <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
OOOhhhh, i just thought of something. maybe if this idea ever gets working well, you could do something with the Marine vs Marine stuff going on and combine the two ideas?
You know I had been thinking about it a little today, instead of having the "push" to move you farther along the map, why not just create teleporters, they could turn on as the marines reached certain points, stoping old teleporters and starting new, you probebly still want the "push in the direct marine start leading to a not easily defendable hallway so they dont stick around. Having the marines have to do things like weld open stuff across the map would be good to do to highten the gameplay a bit(you would have to probebly use combat then, I wouldn't recomend going to far on the weldables though, not every marine is going to use his points to get a little welder, buttons would be more recomended. Make the marines have to zig zag across the map to open up certain things, button to lower a bridge up in an overlook here, button to turn power on to this sector so things work(like doors) far off to one side, weld open a door here, button to turn off alarms allowing sercurity locks to open. You know stuff like that, make it like half-life puzzels kind of, or well halflife setup to get to places(you know if you ever played the campain, you open a valve here turn on a fan there, all revolving around one little area. You know like on Blast pit with those 3 giant tentacles, you were running around the same area accessing different things to get rid of the tentacles. something like that.[not really as widespread or as many things though]). I think you get the general picture.
And if you were going to have the alien tunnel teleporing(that onos can get through) that marines cant pass the push point, make the tunnel exit on like a tunnel rise and make the push entity horizontal so like jet packers cant fly up there still and the aliens arent just spawning from nowhere. There may be problems with this, if you get push down at like 32454765mph im not sure what kind of effect this is going to have on your fall damage. I'm way to lazy to test this on a map right now, someone else can do it. Im going to go to bed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Having the marines have to do things like weld open stuff across the map would be good to do to highten the gameplay a bit(you would have to probebly use combat then, I wouldn't recomend going to far on the weldables though, not every marine is going to use his points to get a little welder, buttons would be more recomended. Make the marines have to zig zag across the map to open up certain things, button to lower a bridge up in an overlook here, button to turn power on to this sector so things work(like doors) far off to one side, weld open a door here, button to turn off alarms allowing sercurity locks to open.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I continue my attempt at this I will definetly use NS_ mode, just give the marines a few welders at the start and the problem is solved. There is simply 10x as much tension when you know that if you die you will sit and watch your team until the round is over.
In case gorges go drop lots of OC's at important locations you can make a weapons locker or armory room with a grenade launcher and some shotties and ammo/armory(I would be reluctant to put an armory there as marines would hump it for health and have infinite ammo. I want rounds to be only a few minutes, If I drop lots of bags of ammo then some idiot without a gl/shotty might grab a whole bunch of it, but maybe I'll just let admins deal with idiots if they have to.), which of course would require a bunch of welding to get into so the marines don't just allways go there by default but actually consider not to.
Well, there is a problem. As far as my knowledge goes, what I have heard and what I have tried. You cannot place items in natural-selection maps. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> so while it would be cool for your idea I think combat is the best bet cause you can atleast get an armory to place in certain sections. Too bad I wont be able to try it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> , stupid steam.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
1) Weldables will extend the length of a level. You could even have a weldable or trigger activate a very long, slow sequence (e.g. waiting for an elevator to descend), forcing the marines to hold their ground while they wait.
2) In CO, a weldable (as someone mentioned) could be used to activate a teleporter for forward spawning. Or simply a trigger_presence.
3) In NS, IPs could be placed along the course of the map; when the marines reach them, they can be built to provide a forward spawn (perhaps a trigger would block or destroy the previous IP). A problem to overcome would be making the IPs invulnerable; I don't know enough about mapping to offer a solution.
4) The hive can be completely separate from the rest of the map. Aliens don't spawn at the hive, they spawn at spawn points. No worries about keeping the hive safe from JP marines.
5) To provide an armory without having to worry about armory humpers, have a trigger presence around the armory. When marines first reach the armory, the trigger is activated; it counts to 100 (arbitrary number), and then a small trigger_hurt inside the armory destroys it (then disable or move the trigger_hurt to keep it from killing the marines too). Marines can fuel up, but can't turtle.
Personally, I think CO is the best idea. It allows for welders and "ups the ante" over the course of the game as people upgrade. NS mode would be vanilla marines vs. very limited upgrades for the aliens. While they'd be able to drop chambers or upgrade to lerk, after just one death they'd be back to skulk for the duration. Additionally, marines would have no way to upgrade at all.
this reminds me of those THE THING starcraft maps. This'll be awesome, if done right. My thoughts on the end: For mariens who have escaped, they should be teleported to a room like the inside of a dropship, like they've escaped. If they go to spectator, then there's a big chance of the marines accidentally ceceding.
<!--QuoteBegin-coil+Apr 23 2004, 06:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Apr 23 2004, 06:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3) In NS, IPs could be placed along the course of the map; when the marines reach them, they can be built to provide a forward spawn (perhaps a trigger would block or destroy the previous IP). A problem to overcome would be making the IPs invulnerable; I don't know enough about mapping to offer a solution.
4) The hive can be completely separate from the rest of the map. Aliens don't spawn at the hive, they spawn at spawn points. No worries about keeping the hive safe from JP marines.
5) To provide an armory without having to worry about armory humpers, have a trigger presence around the armory. When marines first reach the armory, the trigger is activated; it counts to 100 (arbitrary number), and then a small trigger_hurt inside the armory destroys it (then disable or move the trigger_hurt to keep it from killing the marines too). Marines can fuel up, but can't turtle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 3) Well, you could make the IP actually out of sight from the aliens, with a trigger_push to push all spawning players out from there and into battle. When the IP is built, the push gets activated, of course, sending all players who built the IP back into battle. This way, there is no way for the aliens to destroy it, but the marines still have somewhere to spawn.
4) What about healing from the hive?
5) I like this idea. trigger_presence (or once) triggers a multi_manager to destroy the armory after X seconds and then remove the trigger_hurt again after X.01 seconds. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
How would the marines reach the IP to build it in the first place?
I suppose you could have the IP built but blocked, and then unblock it when the marines reach it (and block or destroy the old one). It seems teleporters may be the easiest solution, though.
What'd be really sweet is if you could do it RTCW-style -- if the aliens retake the spot, the marines get pushed back to the old spawn point.
i still cant get a triger_hurt to kill the cc if u can get a workign 1 can u put it in a .map or the outher map tipe and upload it on here? its the only thing i cant get to work <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, there is a problem. As far as my knowledge goes, what I have heard and what I have tried. You cannot place items in natural-selection maps. so while it would be cool for your idea I think combat is the best bet cause you can atleast get an armory to place in certain sections. Too bad I wont be able to try it , stupid steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can game_player_equip everyone with a welder and you can spawn marine and alien structures.
If you could make a game_player_equip only equip the user who activates it(this is a big if) then you might make all marines choose what to start with, extra ammo, a welder, a handgrenade. You could give them stuff, count them and teleport them out of there when they choose in a manner that doesn't look entirely stupid and you could certainly do an armory with weapons in, just show the weapon model and trigger a game_player_equip to spam the player with the weapon, some ammo and remove the weapon model. I'm not quite sure which weapons can be given to marines but welders absolutely do work. If game_player_equip isn't specific that means aliens get welders dropped on them that they can't pick up or use or do anything with.
<!--QuoteBegin-coil+Apr 23 2004, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Apr 23 2004, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How would the marines reach the IP to build it in the first place?
I suppose you could have the IP built but blocked, and then unblock it when the marines reach it (and block or destroy the old one). It seems teleporters may be the easiest solution, though.
What'd be really sweet is if you could do it RTCW-style -- if the aliens retake the spot, the marines get pushed back to the old spawn point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hm, actually, you're right. I was thinking of having the push deactivated until the IP is built but that would mean aliens could chomp it before it was built... Well, I suppose Combat would work better for this.
This is a r0xorz idea (I mean, a good one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
I think ns_ would work because of the heightened tension but co_ would also be cool because of the levels gained. Maybe co_ could even be done with just one spawn pr. player pr. game.
This gets my vote!
Whatever you do, make it hardcore, not for the CS d00dz or carebears.
For inspiration, (re-)read Six Days in Sanji... THAT is es_ in it's essence... (well, I know they don't escape but you get the drift I trust)
<!--QuoteBegin-Pvt.Mulligan+Apr 23 2004, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pvt.Mulligan @ Apr 23 2004, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For inspiration, (re-)read Six Days in Sanji... THAT is es_ in it's essence... (well, I know they don't escape but you get the drift I trust) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You realize that in Sanji they have a commander? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would it be possible to make it into a forward spawning scenario? Like if the marines get to a certain point in the map(1/3 of the way or so) they spawn in that area instead of having to start from the beginning. Maybe have those forward spawn outposts guarded by turrets to keep out skulks or lerks looking to get ahead of the marines.
And what would be the incentive for the marines to run? Maybe after a time limit, areas that the marines are supposed to be escaping from spawn O towers, and D chambers to give the aliens an advantage.
Just my 2 cents. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you could just make a series of push entities, turning on after the marines had gotten so far, that wind through the corridors a certain distance. That would also help lost aliend that say go through the vent that leads to the marine start from not being ablt to find marines, they would just get "pushed" like 500 mph in the direction the marines are going. I wouldnt recomend useing vents to the point of abuse for aliens, just make corridors the push you say one little bit(like a small cube size, but flat) at like 500000 mph so its a one way only corridor. Else how are people who turn onos going to get through? You might want to really consider the teleporting, like leading to the "one way" corridors, but dont make them look like say, the regular halflife teleporters, make like little alien growth tunnels that like curve(you never see the end of the curve because you get teleported) and lead to all of these different places(the places with exits would also have tunnels that curve) but I'm not sure you would want to make you able to go back, like reverse, like from some oneway corridor back to the hive cause this could also work as a way of preventing the marines from camping/attacking the alien spawn. As for the waiting to join from the ready room, easily simplifeied, just make it to where after the round starts doors close on the readyroom access. I know this isnt a fullproof method but it would keep most people out, some could still just type "jointeamone" in the console, but it wouldnt be that big a deal if they were resembling the counterstrike style, only lasing 5 min. People wouldnt get that bored if you closed off all the join things execpt for info_spectate. I really only think that one marine should have to reach the escape, I guess it really depends on which gameplay you use ns_ or co_. But if they have to get them all through say, then once say like 3/4 of them get through and are sent on spectate. Well then the last 1/4 will be fighting the entire team of aliens all by themself enevitable ending the gave after they are getting murdered for the remaining 5 min or whatever.
Um, well..... ......I think I got all I can think of in. Hope you appriciate my 2 cents.
that sounds like a good plan to me. having multiple tasks to complete would make it more interesting that simple "marines run, aliens kill". maybe the aliens could have some kind of task(s) to do besides just stop the marines from escaping?
this whole idea sounds exciting and it just might work. i'll be watching for more progress <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
OOOhhhh, i just thought of something. maybe if this idea ever gets working well, you could do something with the Marine vs Marine stuff going on and combine the two ideas?
And if you were going to have the alien tunnel teleporing(that onos can get through) that marines cant pass the push point, make the tunnel exit on like a tunnel rise and make the push entity horizontal so like jet packers cant fly up there still and the aliens arent just spawning from nowhere. There may be problems with this, if you get push down at like 32454765mph im not sure what kind of effect this is going to have on your fall damage. I'm way to lazy to test this on a map right now, someone else can do it. Im going to go to bed.
Good night and good luck on the mapping.
If I continue my attempt at this I will definetly use NS_ mode, just give the marines a few welders at the start and the problem is solved. There is simply 10x as much tension when you know that if you die you will sit and watch your team until the round is over.
In case gorges go drop lots of OC's at important locations you can make a weapons locker or armory room with a grenade launcher and some shotties and ammo/armory(I would be reluctant to put an armory there as marines would hump it for health and have infinite ammo. I want rounds to be only a few minutes, If I drop lots of bags of ammo then some idiot without a gl/shotty might grab a whole bunch of it, but maybe I'll just let admins deal with idiots if they have to.), which of course would require a bunch of welding to get into so the marines don't just allways go there by default but actually consider not to.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <STEAM>
2) In CO, a weldable (as someone mentioned) could be used to activate a teleporter for forward spawning. Or simply a trigger_presence.
3) In NS, IPs could be placed along the course of the map; when the marines reach them, they can be built to provide a forward spawn (perhaps a trigger would block or destroy the previous IP). A problem to overcome would be making the IPs invulnerable; I don't know enough about mapping to offer a solution.
4) The hive can be completely separate from the rest of the map. Aliens don't spawn at the hive, they spawn at spawn points. No worries about keeping the hive safe from JP marines.
5) To provide an armory without having to worry about armory humpers, have a trigger presence around the armory. When marines first reach the armory, the trigger is activated; it counts to 100 (arbitrary number), and then a small trigger_hurt inside the armory destroys it (then disable or move the trigger_hurt to keep it from killing the marines too). Marines can fuel up, but can't turtle.
Personally, I think CO is the best idea. It allows for welders and "ups the ante" over the course of the game as people upgrade. NS mode would be vanilla marines vs. very limited upgrades for the aliens. While they'd be able to drop chambers or upgrade to lerk, after just one death they'd be back to skulk for the duration. Additionally, marines would have no way to upgrade at all.
4) The hive can be completely separate from the rest of the map. Aliens don't spawn at the hive, they spawn at spawn points. No worries about keeping the hive safe from JP marines.
5) To provide an armory without having to worry about armory humpers, have a trigger presence around the armory. When marines first reach the armory, the trigger is activated; it counts to 100 (arbitrary number), and then a small trigger_hurt inside the armory destroys it (then disable or move the trigger_hurt to keep it from killing the marines too). Marines can fuel up, but can't turtle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
3) Well, you could make the IP actually out of sight from the aliens, with a trigger_push to push all spawning players out from there and into battle. When the IP is built, the push gets activated, of course, sending all players who built the IP back into battle. This way, there is no way for the aliens to destroy it, but the marines still have somewhere to spawn.
4) What about healing from the hive?
5) I like this idea. trigger_presence (or once) triggers a multi_manager to destroy the armory after X seconds and then remove the trigger_hurt again after X.01 seconds. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I suppose you could have the IP built but blocked, and then unblock it when the marines reach it (and block or destroy the old one). It seems teleporters may be the easiest solution, though.
What'd be really sweet is if you could do it RTCW-style -- if the aliens retake the spot, the marines get pushed back to the old spawn point.
You can game_player_equip everyone with a welder and you can spawn marine and alien structures.
If you could make a game_player_equip only equip the user who activates it(this is a big if) then you might make all marines choose what to start with, extra ammo, a welder, a handgrenade. You could give them stuff, count them and teleport them out of there when they choose in a manner that doesn't look entirely stupid and you could certainly do an armory with weapons in, just show the weapon model and trigger a game_player_equip to spam the player with the weapon, some ammo and remove the weapon model. I'm not quite sure which weapons can be given to marines but welders absolutely do work. If game_player_equip isn't specific that means aliens get welders dropped on them that they can't pick up or use or do anything with.
I suppose you could have the IP built but blocked, and then unblock it when the marines reach it (and block or destroy the old one). It seems teleporters may be the easiest solution, though.
What'd be really sweet is if you could do it RTCW-style -- if the aliens retake the spot, the marines get pushed back to the old spawn point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm, actually, you're right. I was thinking of having the push deactivated until the IP is built but that would mean aliens could chomp it before it was built... Well, I suppose Combat would work better for this.
I think ns_ would work because of the heightened tension but co_ would also be cool because of the levels gained. Maybe co_ could even be done with just one spawn pr. player pr. game.
This gets my vote!
Whatever you do, make it hardcore, not for the CS d00dz or carebears.
For inspiration, (re-)read Six Days in Sanji... THAT is es_ in it's essence... (well, I know they don't escape but you get the drift I trust)
/silverwing
You realize that in Sanji they have a commander? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->