Thank you for reminding me yet again on why I need to learn how to model <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Apr 6 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Apr 6 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->al those descriptions of this thing are bogus...no it isn't realistic how you speak of it...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.) Why didn't the legs fly up in ALIENS or The Matrix if moving your legs at all is supposed to make the mech flip over?
2.) Have you considered that there is maybe a slight possibility that the people in the mechs have received a great deal of training that would have taught them to not handle the things like n00bs <b>BEFORE</b> whoever was paying for the things trusted them enough to let them pilot one? Of course, in Appleseed [where the landmates come from], the pilot is the one paying for the mech, so there's that much more incentive to not waste bucket-loads of cash on bungling around in the thing like an untrained monkey on dialisis.
3.) The mechs are built to not over-react to sharp movements as the pilots are trained to not make sharp movements. The pilots know how the things react to the user's manipulations. You play a game for a while, you get used to its controls and how it responds. You drive a car, you get used to its controls and how it responds. <i>You pilot a mech, you get used to its controls and how it responds</i>. Notice the pattern?
4.) What kind of idiot makes something so twitchy it'd fall on its butt from trying to take a step? This is what the "product testing" phase is for. You know, <i>before</i> the item's released for public/law-enforcement/military use? Just because Microsoft refuses to do it, doesn't mean <i>everyone</i> is that arrogant.
5.) The pilots also know what weaknesses their machines have. The same way tank drivers will most strongly defend their weakest areas [sides or rears, most often], landmate pilots aren't dumb enough to just stand there while another landmate's trying to rip his arms off. Would you?
6.) As Sheena explained, landmates are capable of executing a limited form of martial arts [depending on the model and its weight classification]. This means they can <i>defend themselves</i>, rather than sitting there, looking dumb.
7.) Shirow didn't just draw oval bubbles and decide "that's the landmate" [if you've ever seen the ****ing "tech source book" for that crap-*** Young Blood comic of Rob Liefeld's, you'll know what I mean by scribbling moronic ovals and making excuses]. No. He designed it from the ground, up, with every hydraulic pump and line, every joint, every rivet and bolt in the frame. THEN he put the outer casing on. When's the last time you spent weeks researching metal stress and heat tolerances to decide what kind of alloys would be best suited for a particular mech joint's support? He knew about FN's P90 before anyone else. He made the original Ghost in the Shell in the mid eighties. He mentions the P90 and its high-velocity rounds in its end notes. When did <i>you</i> find out such a thing even existed? Note the implication: he doesn't just sit around, drawing comics. He goes out and researches his stuff <i><b>before</b></i> he puts anything on paper.
8.) A landmate's thighs are so big because the pilot's legs move around in them. They're not strapped down like in AL|ENS or The Matrix. That's why the dummy in Sheena's ilustration is able to bend its leg at the knee. There's room in there. The same thing with the arms: the little arms are normally well behind the big ones, which protects them. By having them free-moving like that, you get a MUCH more natural range of motion than if they were using keypads and joysticks, like AL|ENS. You move a finger, the mech responds, instead of hitting a button to switch control function, then moving the joystick to rotate the hand. It also allows for more natural gripping, since the thing can have more than one finger. How do you control five mechanical fingers [<i>on each hand</i>] when your only input [<i>on each hand</i>] is a keypad and joystick? You don't. You limit yourself to uber-simple two-part pincers and a rotary funtion. Yippee. And how do you move your arms around if they're pressed up against your chest in a cramped cockpit? You <i>don't</i>. So, short of making the chest cavity stick way out forward [or have the pilot in a real "****"-pit, like Zone of the Enders, but that would need an excessively larger mec, which is no good for moving around indoors], thus grossly limitting the thing's arms' movements, how do you give the pilot free range of motion? You stick his arms outside the cockpit. Voila.
9.) Her suit doesn't need to be armoured because she's <b><i>WEARING A LANDMATE</i></b>. All it needs to do is feel her body [technology currently under development by the American military and others to determine a soldier's status in the field; little micro-sensors detect electrical impulses from nerves and tissue] and tell the mech what she's doing <i>while she's doing it</i>. There's no delayed response because it's built to move when she does. Remember? The Nintendo Entertainment System had a glove peripheral you could get and play games with. Same principle, except this reads actual muscles, rather than movements.
10.) Shirow is hailed as the most forward-thinking manga artist ever [the average sci-fi manga artist has done at least ten years of graphic and practical art studies, not to mention science and physics and all sorts of other fields to get published at all, whereas little highschool kids in the States get paid up to $30,000 to do X-Men schtick at the age of sixteen]. Not to mention he's got about forty years more research done on this than pretty much anyone here. I've got the Appleseed tech book at home. If I were there, I'd scan some of his sketches and designs for the landmates, but I'm not, so I can't. Maybe some other time.
11.) However, Sheena gets her stuff straight from HIM. Not just one of his books, where he rarely publishes the whole story about his designs. She's been in his studios and seen the stuff he <i>throws out</i>. Do you understand what kind of relationship that entails? Have you got that kind of relationship with anyone who knows what they're talking about as much as him?
12.) The man is studied by people who've spent their lives in engineering and philosophical fields. He's not an idiot. Perhaps you don't know enough about him and prefer to assume he's an idiot because he shares illustrated stories with the world. Is that any worse than video games? He's done those, too. And movies. He's not a young guy. He's been around long enough to know what he's doing. He's also not arrogant. He still does his work all the way through, because he loves what he's doing. He took a decade to upgrade Ghost in the Shell 2 with digital graphics and over a hundred extra pages [compared to its original form, which was published in fanzines over the course of some years] because he was enjoying himself, NOT because he wanted the pay check. He wanted it to be the best thing he could do, unlike ****ing Leifeld and his pathetic ilk who can't draw anything even remotely resembling something from the previous panel, let alone the previous page. *spit-spit-spit*
13.) Don't criticize his ideas until you've seen everything he's said and done to support them. And if you're not willing to put in that much effort, don't expect anyone else to give you a "...For Dummies" synopsis. Appreciate what you get or do the footwork yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-=DD=Wolf Kahler+Apr 7 2004, 01:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (=DD=Wolf Kahler @ Apr 7 2004, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Apr 6 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Apr 6 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->al those descriptions of this thing are bogus...no it isn't realistic how you speak of it...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.) Why didn't the legs fly up in ALIENS or The Matrix if moving your legs at all is supposed to make the mech flip over?
2.) Have you considered that there is maybe a slight possibility that the people in the mechs have received a great deal of training that would have taught them to not handle the things like n00bs <b>BEFORE</b> whoever was paying for the things trusted them enough to let them pilot one? Of course, in Appleseed [where the landmates come from], the pilot is the one paying for the mech, so there's that much more incentive to not waste bucket-loads of cash on bungling around in the thing like an untrained monkey on dialisis.
3.) The mechs are built to not over-react to sharp movements as the pilots are trained to not make sharp movements. The pilots know how the things react to the user's manipulations. You play a game for a while, you get used to its controls and how it responds. You drive a car, you get used to its controls and how it responds. <i>You pilot a mech, you get used to its controls and how it responds</i>. Notice the pattern?
4.) What kind of idiot makes something so twitchy it'd fall on its butt from trying to take a step? This is what the "product testing" phase is for. You know, <i>before</i> the item's released for public/law-enforcement/military use? Just because Microsoft refuses to do it, doesn't mean <i>everyone</i> is that arrogant.
5.) The pilots also know what weaknesses their machines have. The same way tank drivers will most strongly defend their weakest areas [sides or rears, most often], landmate pilots aren't dumb enough to just stand there while another landmate's trying to rip his arms off. Would you?
6.) As Sheena explained, landmates are capable of executing a limited form of martial arts [depending on the model and its weight classification]. This means they can <i>defend themselves</i>, rather than sitting there, looking dumb.
7.) Shirow didn't just draw oval bubbles and decide "that's the landmate" [if you've ever seen the ****ing "tech source book" for that crap-*** Young Blood comic of Rob Liefeld's, you'll know what I mean by scribbling moronic ovals and making excuses]. No. He designed it from the ground, up, with every hydraulic pump and line, every joint, every rivet and bolt in the frame. THEN he put the outer casing on. When's the last time you spent weeks researching metal stress and heat tolerances to decide what kind of alloys would be best suited for a particular mech joint's support? He knew about FN's P90 before anyone else. He made the original Ghost in the Shell in the mid eighties. He mentions the P90 and its high-velocity rounds in its end notes. When did <i>you</i> find out such a thing even existed? Note the implication: he doesn't just sit around, drawing comics. He goes out and researches his stuff <i><b>before</b></i> he puts anything on paper.
8.) A landmate's thighs are so big because the pilot's legs move around in them. They're not strapped down like in AL|ENS or The Matrix. That's why the dummy in Sheena's ilustration is able to bend its leg at the knee. There's room in there. The same thing with the arms: the little arms are normally well behind the big ones, which protects them. By having them free-moving like that, you get a MUCH more natural range of motion than if they were using keypads and joysticks, like AL|ENS. You move a finger, the mech responds, instead of hitting a button to switch control function, then moving the joystick to rotate the hand. It also allows for more natural gripping, since the thing can have more than one finger. How do you control five mechanical fingers [<i>on each hand</i>] when your only input [<i>on each hand</i>] is a keypad and joystick? You don't. You limit yourself to uber-simple two-part pincers and a rotary funtion. Yippee. And how do you move your arms around if they're pressed up against your chest in a cramped cockpit? You <i>don't</i>. So, short of making the chest cavity stick way out forward [or have the pilot in a real "****"-pit, like Zone of the Enders, but that would need an excessively larger mec, which is no good for moving around indoors], thus grossly limitting the thing's arms' movements, how do you give the pilot free range of motion? You stick his arms outside the cockpit. Voila.
9.) Her suit doesn't need to be armoured because she's <b><i>WEARING A LANDMATE</i></b>. All it needs to do is feel her body [technology currently under development by the American military and others to determine a soldier's status in the field; little micro-sensors detect electrical impulses from nerves and tissue] and tell the mech what she's doing <i>while she's doing it</i>. There's no delayed response because it's built to move when she does. Remember? The Nintendo Entertainment System had a glove peripheral you could get and play games with. Same principle, except this reads actual muscles, rather than movements.
10.) Shirow is hailed as the most forward-thinking manga artist ever. Not to mention he's got about forty years more research done on this than pretty much anyone here. I've got the Appleseed tech book at home. If I were there, I'd scan some of his sketches and designs for the landmates, but I'm not, so I can't. Maybe some other time.
11.) However, Sheena gets her stuff straight from HIM. Not just one of his books, where he rarely publishes the whole story about his designs. She's been in his studios and seen the stuff he <i>throws out</i>. Do you understand what kind of relationship that entails? Have you got that kind of relationship with anyone who knows what they're talking about as much as him?
12.) The man is studied by people who've spent their lives in engineering and philosophical fields. He's not an idiot. Perhaps you don't know enough about him and prefer to assume he's an idiot because he shares illustrated stories with the world. Is that any worse than video games? He's done those, too. And movies. He's not a young guy. He's been around long enough to know what he's doing. He's also not arrogant. He still does his work all the way through, because he loves what he's doing. He took a decade to upgrade Ghost in the Shell 2 with digital graphics and over a hundred extra pages [compared to its original form, which was published in fanzines over the course of some years] because he was enjoying himself, NOT because he wanted the pay check. He wanted it to be the best thing he could do, unlike ****ing Leifeld and his pathetic ilk who can't draw anything even remotely resembling something from the previous panel, let alone the previous page. *spit-spit-spit*
13.) Don't criticize his ideas until you've seen everything he's said and done to support them. And if you're not willing to put in that much effort, don't expect anyone else to give you a "...For Dummies" synopsis. Appreciate what you get or do the footwork yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You could of kinda summed that up with a simple question <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) every play with the sensativity on a mouse?
Even computer systems now can inhibit jerky movements made by humans
<!--QuoteBegin-=DD=Wolf Kahler+Apr 7 2004, 01:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (=DD=Wolf Kahler @ Apr 7 2004, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I had more to say than that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was just picking on you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
BTW sheena your too popular <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> (A.K.A inbox is full)
-e-
Actually one other thing I noticed in another post I though I'd just point out...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the robotic leg system seems very wierd to me. Whereas the arms are free to move independent of the robotic arms<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Legs are one thing
Hands are another for one they serve more functions than the feet, which are majorly used for running. Hands and arms on the other hand are used for numerous things (including getting out of the suit <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) like engaging computer interfaces, opening doors, and other highly precise movements...
Actually, as Sheena's illustration with the 3D dummy thing points out, the pilot's legs DO move independantly from the mech's legs. The only difference is that they happen to be inside the thigh, rather than out in the open, like the arms. That was the most economical design for that size of mech, I think.
The thigh can be massive, unlike the chest, because it doesn't get in anything's way. To hold a gun or swing a punch or hold objects, the arms need to not be too impeded. The small arms can even be used to hold things. I think Shirow shows this both in the Appleseed movie and at some point in the books. It's just that the big arms won't be doing anything while you're holding it. Whatever it is.
<!--QuoteBegin-|Owen|+Apr 6 2004, 01:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|Owen| @ Apr 6 2004, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i really hate landmates.... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> but why you ask. i'll tel you, i myself believe that if this were to be a protective exosuit then why the hell yould you have little arm sleeves like that so your arm can pretty much get ripped off easily. now the best kinda mech thing i've seen was prob in the animatrix. those things in the second renaisance stunned me, i love them. but still, while i hate landmates, sheena does make them look very sexy, you go sheen <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then perhaps you'll remember when the robots pinned the guy's arms and legs down, peeled the front open and ripped his torso away from his limbs.
<!--QuoteBegin-sheena yanai+Apr 7 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sheena yanai @ Apr 7 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you think way to complicated...
the pilot in the landmate have to wear a datasuit, a thin layer of electrode material, that can "feel" the electric impulses in the muscles of the pilot.
when the pilot wants to lift his leg, his brain is sending electric impulses to his muscles in his legs, the datasuit catches this signal, sending it to the motion coordination system in the landmate, so the landmate will lift his leg with nearly no delay. on the arms the pilot have to wear a feedback system , wich is also equipped with sensors to register body electricity, so he can feel the force he is givin with his master device to the slave hands.
heres a lil crappy doodled movement study about the leg in the legframe. because the leg is on the inner side of the frame, theres enough space for edms,servos,and gyros
i have to tweak the scale of the final model a little bit to get it like that... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> its like the really old coat of arms that were worn in medievil europe. some were so heavy that the limbs were made with levers in them. for instance, a hand would fit snugly 1/4 sown the forarm, and the hand of the armor would be controlled by buttons connected to levers used by the digits of a soldier.
rescaling and modelling the chestarmor and upper frame started today.. some pics.. the black dots on the pilot are reversed faces... its just a dummy and gets deleted when its finished
OMG freaking ownage :| can u walk over skulks with that?? and does it have 9000 armor??? a onos cant it that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> YAY!! finaly an anti onos armor!! DAMN U ONOS U WONT CATCH ME IN THAT ARMOR!! muwhahaah evul!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> whaha well its really cooll!!
<!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Apr 7 2004, 02:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Apr 7 2004, 02:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> al those descriptions of this thing are bogus...no it isn't realistic how you speak of it... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> SUYF... ppl have said it's being researched, look at the facts, its easy, they have prosthetic limbs that can be remotly controlled by the exact same human limb up to 3 km away. so it will work locally on a bigger scale... in theory
actually this field is being researched since the 60s...
last year the first prototype of a walking machine (HAL-3) that enables paralyzed ppls to walk was presented. its been controlled by nerv impulses intercepted right over the injure that makes the ppls paralyzed. <img src='http://taipeitimes.com/images/2003/08/22/20030821182055.jpeg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <img src='http://sanlab.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/~lee/HTML/Image/HAL-3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <img src='http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ciencia/images/20030821-hal.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
1996 the darpa (U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) started to research exoskeletons for human performance augmentation project (ehpa) .
this was a concept drawing for a very light infantry exoskeleton <img src='http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1110000/images/_1112411_exos-darpa300.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> looks amazingly like hal-3
the final version worked like the one masamune shirow described in appleseed...shirow drawed appleseed in the 80s. that was many years before the darpa project startet... the current status of darpa´s ehpa project is top secret classified .
the 60s are over man... but heres a attempt by general electric , Goliath known as Hardiman 1 he was able to work as forklift.. similar to the powerloaders in aliens...but he was impractical, he needet heavy cables for the powersupply..and he was very heavy..1500 pounds this was 1960 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1042050803.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->heres a short view on the real one... nice tech tv movie..
what is a exo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> whoa this is interesting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> , these suits could actually become real one day <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1042050803.jpg<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->cool we need that crappy sities thing as ha
<!--QuoteBegin-REDDmonkey+Apr 7 2004, 03:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (REDDmonkey @ Apr 7 2004, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->heres a short view on the real one... nice tech tv movie..
what is a exo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> whoa this is interesting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> , these suits could actually become real one day <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could sir?
They will
its only a matter of time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
LoL, Running to school in a mech, that would be teh ubar WiN! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The videos aren't very interesting, as he just walks around slowly. In all 3 of them.
I'd still like to see some landmates though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Ya do shirow proud
1.) Why didn't the legs fly up in ALIENS or The Matrix if moving your legs at all is supposed to make the mech flip over?
2.) Have you considered that there is maybe a slight possibility that the people in the mechs have received a great deal of training that would have taught them to not handle the things like n00bs <b>BEFORE</b> whoever was paying for the things trusted them enough to let them pilot one? Of course, in Appleseed [where the landmates come from], the pilot is the one paying for the mech, so there's that much more incentive to not waste bucket-loads of cash on bungling around in the thing like an untrained monkey on dialisis.
3.) The mechs are built to not over-react to sharp movements as the pilots are trained to not make sharp movements. The pilots know how the things react to the user's manipulations. You play a game for a while, you get used to its controls and how it responds. You drive a car, you get used to its controls and how it responds. <i>You pilot a mech, you get used to its controls and how it responds</i>. Notice the pattern?
4.) What kind of idiot makes something so twitchy it'd fall on its butt from trying to take a step? This is what the "product testing" phase is for. You know, <i>before</i> the item's released for public/law-enforcement/military use? Just because Microsoft refuses to do it, doesn't mean <i>everyone</i> is that arrogant.
5.) The pilots also know what weaknesses their machines have. The same way tank drivers will most strongly defend their weakest areas [sides or rears, most often], landmate pilots aren't dumb enough to just stand there while another landmate's trying to rip his arms off. Would you?
6.) As Sheena explained, landmates are capable of executing a limited form of martial arts [depending on the model and its weight classification]. This means they can <i>defend themselves</i>, rather than sitting there, looking dumb.
7.) Shirow didn't just draw oval bubbles and decide "that's the landmate" [if you've ever seen the ****ing "tech source book" for that crap-*** Young Blood comic of Rob Liefeld's, you'll know what I mean by scribbling moronic ovals and making excuses]. No. He designed it from the ground, up, with every hydraulic pump and line, every joint, every rivet and bolt in the frame. THEN he put the outer casing on. When's the last time you spent weeks researching metal stress and heat tolerances to decide what kind of alloys would be best suited for a particular mech joint's support? He knew about FN's P90 before anyone else. He made the original Ghost in the Shell in the mid eighties. He mentions the P90 and its high-velocity rounds in its end notes. When did <i>you</i> find out such a thing even existed? Note the implication: he doesn't just sit around, drawing comics. He goes out and researches his stuff <i><b>before</b></i> he puts anything on paper.
8.) A landmate's thighs are so big because the pilot's legs move around in them. They're not strapped down like in AL|ENS or The Matrix. That's why the dummy in Sheena's ilustration is able to bend its leg at the knee. There's room in there. The same thing with the arms: the little arms are normally well behind the big ones, which protects them. By having them free-moving like that, you get a MUCH more natural range of motion than if they were using keypads and joysticks, like AL|ENS. You move a finger, the mech responds, instead of hitting a button to switch control function, then moving the joystick to rotate the hand. It also allows for more natural gripping, since the thing can have more than one finger. How do you control five mechanical fingers [<i>on each hand</i>] when your only input [<i>on each hand</i>] is a keypad and joystick? You don't. You limit yourself to uber-simple two-part pincers and a rotary funtion. Yippee. And how do you move your arms around if they're pressed up against your chest in a cramped cockpit? You <i>don't</i>. So, short of making the chest cavity stick way out forward [or have the pilot in a real "****"-pit, like Zone of the Enders, but that would need an excessively larger mec, which is no good for moving around indoors], thus grossly limitting the thing's arms' movements, how do you give the pilot free range of motion? You stick his arms outside the cockpit. Voila.
9.) Her suit doesn't need to be armoured because she's <b><i>WEARING A LANDMATE</i></b>. All it needs to do is feel her body [technology currently under development by the American military and others to determine a soldier's status in the field; little micro-sensors detect electrical impulses from nerves and tissue] and tell the mech what she's doing <i>while she's doing it</i>. There's no delayed response because it's built to move when she does. Remember? The Nintendo Entertainment System had a glove peripheral you could get and play games with. Same principle, except this reads actual muscles, rather than movements.
10.) Shirow is hailed as the most forward-thinking manga artist ever [the average sci-fi manga artist has done at least ten years of graphic and practical art studies, not to mention science and physics and all sorts of other fields to get published at all, whereas little highschool kids in the States get paid up to $30,000 to do X-Men schtick at the age of sixteen]. Not to mention he's got about forty years more research done on this than pretty much anyone here. I've got the Appleseed tech book at home. If I were there, I'd scan some of his sketches and designs for the landmates, but I'm not, so I can't. Maybe some other time.
11.) However, Sheena gets her stuff straight from HIM. Not just one of his books, where he rarely publishes the whole story about his designs. She's been in his studios and seen the stuff he <i>throws out</i>. Do you understand what kind of relationship that entails? Have you got that kind of relationship with anyone who knows what they're talking about as much as him?
12.) The man is studied by people who've spent their lives in engineering and philosophical fields. He's not an idiot. Perhaps you don't know enough about him and prefer to assume he's an idiot because he shares illustrated stories with the world. Is that any worse than video games? He's done those, too. And movies. He's not a young guy. He's been around long enough to know what he's doing. He's also not arrogant. He still does his work all the way through, because he loves what he's doing. He took a decade to upgrade Ghost in the Shell 2 with digital graphics and over a hundred extra pages [compared to its original form, which was published in fanzines over the course of some years] because he was enjoying himself, NOT because he wanted the pay check. He wanted it to be the best thing he could do, unlike ****ing Leifeld and his pathetic ilk who can't draw anything even remotely resembling something from the previous panel, let alone the previous page. *spit-spit-spit*
13.) Don't criticize his ideas until you've seen everything he's said and done to support them. And if you're not willing to put in that much effort, don't expect anyone else to give you a "...For Dummies" synopsis. Appreciate what you get or do the footwork yourself.
1.) Why didn't the legs fly up in ALIENS or The Matrix if moving your legs at all is supposed to make the mech flip over?
2.) Have you considered that there is maybe a slight possibility that the people in the mechs have received a great deal of training that would have taught them to not handle the things like n00bs <b>BEFORE</b> whoever was paying for the things trusted them enough to let them pilot one? Of course, in Appleseed [where the landmates come from], the pilot is the one paying for the mech, so there's that much more incentive to not waste bucket-loads of cash on bungling around in the thing like an untrained monkey on dialisis.
3.) The mechs are built to not over-react to sharp movements as the pilots are trained to not make sharp movements. The pilots know how the things react to the user's manipulations. You play a game for a while, you get used to its controls and how it responds. You drive a car, you get used to its controls and how it responds. <i>You pilot a mech, you get used to its controls and how it responds</i>. Notice the pattern?
4.) What kind of idiot makes something so twitchy it'd fall on its butt from trying to take a step? This is what the "product testing" phase is for. You know, <i>before</i> the item's released for public/law-enforcement/military use? Just because Microsoft refuses to do it, doesn't mean <i>everyone</i> is that arrogant.
5.) The pilots also know what weaknesses their machines have. The same way tank drivers will most strongly defend their weakest areas [sides or rears, most often], landmate pilots aren't dumb enough to just stand there while another landmate's trying to rip his arms off. Would you?
6.) As Sheena explained, landmates are capable of executing a limited form of martial arts [depending on the model and its weight classification]. This means they can <i>defend themselves</i>, rather than sitting there, looking dumb.
7.) Shirow didn't just draw oval bubbles and decide "that's the landmate" [if you've ever seen the ****ing "tech source book" for that crap-*** Young Blood comic of Rob Liefeld's, you'll know what I mean by scribbling moronic ovals and making excuses]. No. He designed it from the ground, up, with every hydraulic pump and line, every joint, every rivet and bolt in the frame. THEN he put the outer casing on. When's the last time you spent weeks researching metal stress and heat tolerances to decide what kind of alloys would be best suited for a particular mech joint's support? He knew about FN's P90 before anyone else. He made the original Ghost in the Shell in the mid eighties. He mentions the P90 and its high-velocity rounds in its end notes. When did <i>you</i> find out such a thing even existed? Note the implication: he doesn't just sit around, drawing comics. He goes out and researches his stuff <i><b>before</b></i> he puts anything on paper.
8.) A landmate's thighs are so big because the pilot's legs move around in them. They're not strapped down like in AL|ENS or The Matrix. That's why the dummy in Sheena's ilustration is able to bend its leg at the knee. There's room in there. The same thing with the arms: the little arms are normally well behind the big ones, which protects them. By having them free-moving like that, you get a MUCH more natural range of motion than if they were using keypads and joysticks, like AL|ENS. You move a finger, the mech responds, instead of hitting a button to switch control function, then moving the joystick to rotate the hand. It also allows for more natural gripping, since the thing can have more than one finger. How do you control five mechanical fingers [<i>on each hand</i>] when your only input [<i>on each hand</i>] is a keypad and joystick? You don't. You limit yourself to uber-simple two-part pincers and a rotary funtion. Yippee. And how do you move your arms around if they're pressed up against your chest in a cramped cockpit? You <i>don't</i>. So, short of making the chest cavity stick way out forward [or have the pilot in a real "****"-pit, like Zone of the Enders, but that would need an excessively larger mec, which is no good for moving around indoors], thus grossly limitting the thing's arms' movements, how do you give the pilot free range of motion? You stick his arms outside the cockpit. Voila.
9.) Her suit doesn't need to be armoured because she's <b><i>WEARING A LANDMATE</i></b>. All it needs to do is feel her body [technology currently under development by the American military and others to determine a soldier's status in the field; little micro-sensors detect electrical impulses from nerves and tissue] and tell the mech what she's doing <i>while she's doing it</i>. There's no delayed response because it's built to move when she does. Remember? The Nintendo Entertainment System had a glove peripheral you could get and play games with. Same principle, except this reads actual muscles, rather than movements.
10.) Shirow is hailed as the most forward-thinking manga artist ever. Not to mention he's got about forty years more research done on this than pretty much anyone here. I've got the Appleseed tech book at home. If I were there, I'd scan some of his sketches and designs for the landmates, but I'm not, so I can't. Maybe some other time.
11.) However, Sheena gets her stuff straight from HIM. Not just one of his books, where he rarely publishes the whole story about his designs. She's been in his studios and seen the stuff he <i>throws out</i>. Do you understand what kind of relationship that entails? Have you got that kind of relationship with anyone who knows what they're talking about as much as him?
12.) The man is studied by people who've spent their lives in engineering and philosophical fields. He's not an idiot. Perhaps you don't know enough about him and prefer to assume he's an idiot because he shares illustrated stories with the world. Is that any worse than video games? He's done those, too. And movies. He's not a young guy. He's been around long enough to know what he's doing. He's also not arrogant. He still does his work all the way through, because he loves what he's doing. He took a decade to upgrade Ghost in the Shell 2 with digital graphics and over a hundred extra pages [compared to its original form, which was published in fanzines over the course of some years] because he was enjoying himself, NOT because he wanted the pay check. He wanted it to be the best thing he could do, unlike ****ing Leifeld and his pathetic ilk who can't draw anything even remotely resembling something from the previous panel, let alone the previous page. *spit-spit-spit*
13.) Don't criticize his ideas until you've seen everything he's said and done to support them. And if you're not willing to put in that much effort, don't expect anyone else to give you a "...For Dummies" synopsis. Appreciate what you get or do the footwork yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could of kinda summed that up with a simple question <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) every play with the sensativity on a mouse?
Even computer systems now can inhibit jerky movements made by humans
I was just picking on you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
BTW sheena your too popular <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(A.K.A inbox is full)
-e-
Actually one other thing I noticed in another post I though I'd just point out...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the robotic leg system seems very wierd to me. Whereas the arms are free to move independent of the robotic arms<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Legs are one thing
Hands are another for one they serve more functions than the feet, which are majorly used for running. Hands and arms on the other hand are used for numerous things (including getting out of the suit <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) like engaging computer interfaces, opening doors, and other highly precise movements...
The thigh can be massive, unlike the chest, because it doesn't get in anything's way. To hold a gun or swing a punch or hold objects, the arms need to not be too impeded. The small arms can even be used to hold things. I think Shirow shows this both in the Appleseed movie and at some point in the books. It's just that the big arms won't be doing anything while you're holding it. Whatever it is.
Then perhaps you'll remember when the robots pinned the guy's arms and legs down, peeled the front open and ripped his torso away from his limbs.
(wolf kahlers big list) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
funbags you got ownd <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
very nice as always sheena keep it up
the pilot in the landmate have to wear a datasuit, a thin layer of electrode material, that can "feel" the electric impulses in the muscles of the pilot.
when the pilot wants to lift his leg, his brain is sending electric impulses to his muscles in his legs, the datasuit catches this signal, sending it to the motion coordination system in the landmate, so the landmate will lift his leg with nearly no delay.
on the arms the pilot have to wear a feedback system , wich is also equipped with sensors to register body electricity, so he can feel the force he is givin with his master device to the slave hands.
heres a lil crappy doodled movement study about the leg in the legframe.
because the leg is on the inner side of the frame, theres enough space for edms,servos,and gyros
i have to tweak the scale of the final model a little bit to get it like that... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
its like the really old coat of arms that were worn in medievil europe. some were so heavy that the limbs were made with levers in them. for instance, a hand would fit snugly 1/4 sown the forarm, and the hand of the armor would be controlled by buttons connected to levers used by the digits of a soldier.
some pics.. the black dots on the pilot are reversed faces... its just a dummy and gets deleted when its finished
can u walk over skulks with that??
and does it have 9000 armor???
a onos cant it that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
YAY!! finaly an anti onos armor!!
DAMN U ONOS U WONT CATCH ME IN THAT ARMOR!!
muwhahaah evul!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
whaha well its really cooll!!
SUYF... ppl have said it's being researched, look at the facts, its easy, they have prosthetic limbs that can be remotly controlled by the exact same human limb up to 3 km away. so it will work locally on a bigger scale... in theory
last year the first prototype of a walking machine (HAL-3) that enables paralyzed ppls to walk was presented. its been controlled by nerv impulses intercepted right over the injure that makes the ppls paralyzed.
<img src='http://taipeitimes.com/images/2003/08/22/20030821182055.jpeg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://sanlab.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/~lee/HTML/Image/HAL-3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ciencia/images/20030821-hal.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
1996 the darpa (U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) started to research exoskeletons for human performance augmentation project (ehpa) .
this was a concept drawing for a very light infantry exoskeleton
<img src='http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1110000/images/_1112411_exos-darpa300.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
looks amazingly like hal-3
the final version worked like the one masamune shirow described in appleseed...shirow drawed appleseed in the 80s. that was many years before the darpa project startet...
the current status of darpa´s ehpa project is top secret classified .
i hope this tells you somethin
u know my second Name is Shirlow DOES THIS MEAN IM SEMI RELATED !!!
Btw Sheena wot made u pic teh landmate ?
should do 1 of those mechs from Patlabor or Macross =o
mhm... I remember seeing this one before... but... uh... strange thing <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
nice tech tv movie..
<a href='http://www.techtv.com/news/scitech/story/0,24195,3371422,00.html' target='_blank'>what is a exo?</a>
smart man.
Anyways.. that marine guy looks really familiar ^^
this was 1960
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1042050803.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
nice tech tv movie..
what is a exo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whoa this is interesting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> , these suits could actually become real one day <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
nice tech tv movie..
what is a exo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whoa this is interesting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> , these suits could actually become real one day <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could sir?
They will
its only a matter of time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://169.229.204.159/hel/bleex.htm' target='_blank'>http://169.229.204.159/hel/bleex.htm</a>
Not suitable for combat, but we're getting there.
The videos aren't very interesting, as he just walks around slowly. In all 3 of them.
I'd still like to see some landmates though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->