uh exactly how many is it gonna add to r_speeds either way. 8? 16? does it REALLY matter? i mean as long as they're not 1000, it'll hardly make a diff unless your running hl on a 486 and that would be rather idiotic though wouldn't it.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Zazi</b> First, you have only one brush to worry about, on a flat surface. Whereas using null textures you have many more, even though you cannot see them, they are still there. Null brushes still add to the plane count and r speeds. Test it and you'll find out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to break it to you Zazi but this is partially incorrect. Yes, null burshes do add to the plane count. But no, they don't add to r_speeds. Null textured faces are culled at the very start of the compile sometime during CSG I assume this happens while the backfaces are being removed. And that is why you get a HOM effect where a null textured face touches another world brush.
<i>NB. you don't get a HOM effect if either of the brushes (the nulled one or the one it touches) are entities. I'm not entirly sure why this happens but I assume it is because none of the faces of brush based entities are considered backfaces by the engine therefore none of the faces touching them are culled during CSG</i>
Since all null textured faces are removed during CSG there is no way they can add to r_speeds because the brushes aren't cut up into wpolys until VIS. The reason other textures still add to your r_speeds even though you can make them invisible via Render Mode & FX Amount. They aren't culled during CSG so they are still around to be broken up into wpolys.
To test this put two identical func_walls in a simple square room, texture one with null and the other with AAATrigger. and make their Render Mode & FX Amount both <b>Texture 0</b>. Make sure niether func_wall is touching anything else. Now hook them both up to a func_button and an env_render so that when you press the button the env_render makes the Render Mode & FX Amount of both func_walls <b>Texture 255</b>. Now compile the map and run around it. You shouldn't be able to see either func_wall. Now turn on gl_wireframe, you should only see the wireframe for the func_wall textured in AAATrigger. Now press the button, you should only see the func_wall that was textured in AAATrigger, the func_wall textured in null is nowhere to be seen.
Any r_speed increases that you get from a null textured brush would be because of it cutting up other faces, not from it's own faces.
But how does it cut up other brushes if the null textured faces were removed during CSG I hear you cry. Well yes, the faces were removed, but the rest of the brush is still there.
Disclaimer: I got most of this info from memory, the rest I got from looking at my compile logs. I won't be surprised if some of it is wrong, so you shouldn't be either. But I am positive I have the core concept right, null textured faces do not directly add to r_speeds.
Zazi... show me how and where I insulted you....and then I'll believe that I insulted you....
As for being around longer ...well, seems a pointless argument (mine is bigger then yours)...but if you must know, I've been around since half-way through last year...
Hanz, I have been with the HL community since the day it came out. I got involved with 2d Art for games six years ago, and level design approximatly three or so years ago. With Quake, that is.
And Mouse: You do not need to make the null brushes entities, since they are already invisible. But they do add to the plane count. Anything that has any sort of plane adds to r speeds. Although you cannot see the object, its still there. Much like making a brush with null textures and trying to walk through it -- you can't.
Oh, and Hanz: Mine is bigger than yours. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Zazi, listen very carefully.... IT DOES NOT ADD TO THE R_SPEEDS.... I'll say it again for good effect - IT DOES NOT ADD TO THE R_SPEEDS..how bout once more...maybe it'll sink in....the whole point of the null texture is that the faces are not rendered - IT DOES NOT ADD TO THE R_SPEEDS... R_speeds have nothing to do with planes... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... R_SPEEDS is a measure of how long each frame takes to render and the content of that frame. r_speeds do not correlate with planes... I don't know how I can say this to make you understand - I'm gonna go do a quick demo of it in action...
There you go...the attached picture proves it... theres about 70-80 boxes there and I've taken screenies to show the difference in r_speeds between null and a normal texture... notice how the lighting is still calculated...I thought I'd point out the lighting seeing as it is the whole reason of this post...
As for being with the HL community since it came out... same here...although you can't mean mod community because the sdk wasn't released the day it came out... I got involved with computers back in the early 80's when I was programming games for my commodore 64... I've been doing 2d art professionally for about 8 years...and been mapping since doom....
But since you've degenerated this conversation to a simple "I'm better than you" argument... I don't know whether it's possible you can see any reasoning..
Comments
exactly how many is it gonna add to r_speeds either way.
8? 16?
does it REALLY matter?
i mean as long as they're not 1000, it'll hardly make a diff unless your running hl on a 486
and that would be rather idiotic though wouldn't it.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/asrifle.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::asrifle::'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tiny.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::onos::'><!--endemo-->
First, you have only one brush to worry about, on a flat surface. Whereas using null textures you have many more, even though you cannot see them, they are still there. Null brushes still add to the plane count and r speeds. Test it and you'll find out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to break it to you Zazi but this is partially incorrect. Yes, null burshes do add to the plane count. But no, they don't add to r_speeds. Null textured faces are culled at the very start of the compile sometime during CSG I assume this happens while the backfaces are being removed. And that is why you get a HOM effect where a null textured face touches another world brush.
<i>NB. you don't get a HOM effect if either of the brushes (the nulled one or the one it touches) are entities. I'm not entirly sure why this happens but I assume it is because none of the faces of brush based entities are considered backfaces by the engine therefore none of the faces touching them are culled during CSG</i>
Since all null textured faces are removed during CSG there is no way they can add to r_speeds because the brushes aren't cut up into wpolys until VIS. The reason other textures still add to your r_speeds even though you can make them invisible via Render Mode & FX Amount. They aren't culled during CSG so they are still around to be broken up into wpolys.
To test this put two identical func_walls in a simple square room, texture one with null and the other with AAATrigger. and make their Render Mode & FX Amount both <b>Texture 0</b>. Make sure niether func_wall is touching anything else. Now hook them both up to a func_button and an env_render so that when you press the button the env_render makes the Render Mode & FX Amount of both func_walls <b>Texture 255</b>.
Now compile the map and run around it. You shouldn't be able to see either func_wall. Now turn on gl_wireframe, you should only see the wireframe for the func_wall textured in AAATrigger. Now press the button, you should only see the func_wall that was textured in AAATrigger, the func_wall textured in null is nowhere to be seen.
Any r_speed increases that you get from a null textured brush would be because of it cutting up other faces, not from it's own faces.
But how does it cut up other brushes if the null textured faces were removed during CSG I hear you cry. Well yes, the faces were removed, but the rest of the brush is still there.
Disclaimer: I got most of this info from memory, the rest I got from looking at my compile logs. I won't be surprised if some of it is wrong, so you shouldn't be either. But I am positive I have the core concept right, null textured faces do not directly add to r_speeds.
As for being around longer ...well, seems a pointless argument (mine is bigger then yours)...but if you must know, I've been around since half-way through last year...
I don't recall calling you a noob at any point...
I think you have stress management issues..
And Mouse: You do not need to make the null brushes entities, since they are already invisible. But they do add to the plane count. Anything that has any sort of plane adds to r speeds. Although you cannot see the object, its still there. Much like making a brush with null textures and trying to walk through it -- you can't.
Oh, and Hanz: Mine is bigger than yours. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
There you go...the attached picture proves it... theres about 70-80 boxes there and I've taken screenies to show the difference in r_speeds between null and a normal texture... notice how the lighting is still calculated...I thought I'd point out the lighting seeing as it is the whole reason of this post...
As for being with the HL community since it came out...
same here...although you can't mean mod community because the sdk wasn't released the day it came out... I got involved with computers back in the early 80's when I was programming games for my commodore 64... I've been doing 2d art professionally for about 8 years...and been mapping since doom....
But since you've degenerated this conversation to a simple "I'm better than you" argument... I don't know whether it's possible you can see any reasoning..
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