Movement
ekent
Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
<div class="IPBDescription">an underrated skill</div> I was going over an argument for jetpacks in another thread titled Ha vs Jp when I decided the argument I was making wasn't really for jetpacks, it trying to get people to realize that movement skill matters.
Movement is a huge part of this game, people should realize this. The ability to aim is just a part of it. Unless you can dodge multiple skulks, or leap and switch to bite, etc., you're not going to have a stellar ratio. No one is saying you won't be able to get kills, but you certainly won't be able to get as many as you could otherwise.
Witness the comparitive lack of hackers that play this game versus, say, CS. The reason should be obvious: you need to understand how to duck-jump to take advantage of knockback, circle strafe around skulks, or bunnyhop away from dangerous situations to create an environment where you control the access. Unless you can do this, you'll find yourself constantly rushed by 4 skulks, killing one or two and then dying. This is not a situation you'd find yourself in CS, mostly because there <i>is</i> no way to dodge.
Two key terms for this skill would be speed, and air control, and they are very interrelated. I'll explain this through the mechanics of bunnyhopping:
Bunnyhopping (bhop) is basically accelerating yourself through the air by manipulating (or, perjoratively, exploiting) the game physics of movement. Theoretically, if you could jump the instant you touched ground, and kept jumping every time, you would never lose speed. Theory, obviously, is impossible to match, so you lose speed every time you touch ground. The key to bunnyhopping is to regain that speed quickly, and the key to that is understanding that moving on the diagonal is faster than moving straight. This is why another name for bunnyhopping is "strafe jumping." Moving your mouse from left to right (and back) also increases the speed slightly, and further increases the value by allowing you to stay on the diagonal for a longer time while moving forward.
From this example you can see how air control impacts play. If you consider the ground to act as a brake, you can see other examples of air control. A big one you hear about is knockback from skulk bite. Bitegun knockback temporarily accelerates you faster than a skulk can bunnyhop at max speeds (it's somewhere in the range of leap speed), but if you're on the ground you might get pushed back a foot or none, obviously, since the ground is a <b>brake</b>. If, however, you jump, you have no brake to stop you, and you will fly back. If you duck you will increase the height of your jump, and stay in the air longer (and correspondingly get knocked farther back). The farther back you are the longer you have to respond to that bite.
A smaller component of movement, but one that is easier to grasp, mainly consists of tricks to avoid a skulk bite by moving at the last moment. Think about pulling the tablecloth out from under the china. One I use a lot is trying to jump over the skulk at the last moment, when he tries to bite my legs. Another is circle strafing. I won't bother with these since most people have heard of them.
I'd just like to say that whether you're aware of it or not, movement is a huge part of this game and the main thing that makes fighting more interesting than some more popular mods.
Movement is a huge part of this game, people should realize this. The ability to aim is just a part of it. Unless you can dodge multiple skulks, or leap and switch to bite, etc., you're not going to have a stellar ratio. No one is saying you won't be able to get kills, but you certainly won't be able to get as many as you could otherwise.
Witness the comparitive lack of hackers that play this game versus, say, CS. The reason should be obvious: you need to understand how to duck-jump to take advantage of knockback, circle strafe around skulks, or bunnyhop away from dangerous situations to create an environment where you control the access. Unless you can do this, you'll find yourself constantly rushed by 4 skulks, killing one or two and then dying. This is not a situation you'd find yourself in CS, mostly because there <i>is</i> no way to dodge.
Two key terms for this skill would be speed, and air control, and they are very interrelated. I'll explain this through the mechanics of bunnyhopping:
Bunnyhopping (bhop) is basically accelerating yourself through the air by manipulating (or, perjoratively, exploiting) the game physics of movement. Theoretically, if you could jump the instant you touched ground, and kept jumping every time, you would never lose speed. Theory, obviously, is impossible to match, so you lose speed every time you touch ground. The key to bunnyhopping is to regain that speed quickly, and the key to that is understanding that moving on the diagonal is faster than moving straight. This is why another name for bunnyhopping is "strafe jumping." Moving your mouse from left to right (and back) also increases the speed slightly, and further increases the value by allowing you to stay on the diagonal for a longer time while moving forward.
From this example you can see how air control impacts play. If you consider the ground to act as a brake, you can see other examples of air control. A big one you hear about is knockback from skulk bite. Bitegun knockback temporarily accelerates you faster than a skulk can bunnyhop at max speeds (it's somewhere in the range of leap speed), but if you're on the ground you might get pushed back a foot or none, obviously, since the ground is a <b>brake</b>. If, however, you jump, you have no brake to stop you, and you will fly back. If you duck you will increase the height of your jump, and stay in the air longer (and correspondingly get knocked farther back). The farther back you are the longer you have to respond to that bite.
A smaller component of movement, but one that is easier to grasp, mainly consists of tricks to avoid a skulk bite by moving at the last moment. Think about pulling the tablecloth out from under the china. One I use a lot is trying to jump over the skulk at the last moment, when he tries to bite my legs. Another is circle strafing. I won't bother with these since most people have heard of them.
I'd just like to say that whether you're aware of it or not, movement is a huge part of this game and the main thing that makes fighting more interesting than some more popular mods.
Comments
Multiple skulks... I'd say a big part of it is killing them one at a time - a skulk with 20 hp can still kill you. You don't want 4 half dead skulks, you want 2 dead ones. Finish one guy with the lmg, two if you can, then finish another with the pistol, and by now you're either dead or you just killed all the skulks.
Which was why there are jetpacks and HA. You can choose yuour marines to be extremely mobile, at the expense of still being as vulnerable as a normal marine. or
an HA marine, with extra armor that fends off anything except devour, at the expense of movement.
Either way, it's the comm's call wether you get the JPs or HA.
And of course, to continue with the subject, again, tis' a good read. Possibly a way for me to improve on playing marines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post post and I agree completly with what your saying however.
Who says you cant dodge bullets?
You obviously arnt that good at CS m8 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you understand how to bunnyhop, properly aim blink and leap, how to quickswitch them with slot one, and how to use them to infiltrate marine groups at pointblank in such a way as to present them with aiming difficulties while having none yourself, with upgrades as a luxury, you've mastered the basics of how to use the majority of alien lifeforms.
If you understand how to hurdle obstacles with a duck-jump, how to use knockback to full advantage, how to take cover and squeeze through tiny spaces fast, how to duck-fly with the jetpack for maximum speed and be as unpredictable in flight as conditions allow, all you need is decent aiming capacity and you're a good basic marine. Even if you can't shoot, you can get somewhere and build things efficiently, which helps the commander, which helps the team.
Especially in the early game, when marines with armor 1 can take three bites, you need to make those three bites count as much as possible. You have to know the limits of the LMG, the pistol, and the knife. Similarly as the aliens, moving in straight lines on the floor is death. 4 lines of LMG fire will pulp you the second you get halfway down the hallway. Be sneaky, cling to walls, look for little hiding holes and vents you can use to get from one side of the map to the other in under 30 seconds, know where your gorge havens are, and try your best to pick the ideal settings for the moment you commit to attack. Use parasite, keep an eye on where marines are looking and focused on.
The complexities of NS keep me playing<span style='color:yellow'><3</span>.</span>
You obviously can never dodge the bullet itself - you can dodge the aim, based on movement speed, unpredictability and availability of obstacles. All these things are alot lower in CS - movement speeds are lower, movement types alot less and obstacles you can usually just shoot through.
Anyways, I just hope you were trying to be ironic with your remark - not that I really care, but eh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
@Kent:
One little oversight (aka imbalance) you forgot, which is one of the reasons I'm no great fan of movement 'skill' although I use it excessively myself - all bites have a <b>left</b> propulsion bias, no matter where they hit you. <b>If the bias of your knockback and current strafe direction match, you can get the knockbacks maximum effect</b> - meaning, if you strafe right while being bitten from the front, you will receive maximum knockback. Add a jump or duckjump to this, and you can cover a whole room with ease.
Similiar when fighting Onos near a base, strafe right past buildings to get him to accidentially punt a structure and propell you far enough away to empty a whole clip without worrys.
Personally, I think these knockback issues need to be toned down badly, because after you take more than 2 bites that just makes life way too easy in Skulk vs Marine combat. Can't even count the number of times I get entirely owned by an ambush, jump and strafe and come out on top. With Armor 2 you'll even win PG camps regularly.
yes, the armor upgrades are lame......skulk can take 3 knife slices, with armor 2 a marine can take 4 bites (or 3 bites + 1 parasite)...and a knife slices faster than skulk bite......onto this, marine can get medpacks....and I think we all know that cataclyst knifing is soooo nice <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
skulks are too weak....they may be fast, but anyone with a good aim can Pwn them.....
speed + attack-power + defence-power = ability to cover the field...
aliens have speed
attack-power belongs to marines, at range always, and now often in close combat too
defence-power belongs to marines, they have elec, turrets, PGs to defend areas.....where aliens only have OCs that any medium good player can exploit-kill around a corner...........
speed (blink) attack (slash) defence (metabolizm, high hitpoints) do you ever wonder why fades are good??
Fit the whole team out with HA, and some (good) ppl with JP will do most of the time.
Fit the whole team out with HA, and some (good) ppl with JP will do most of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway back on topic:
Two other movement techniques:
1. Wallhugging: If you strafe into the wall and go forward, you go noticeably faster.
2. Marines can jump a second time without slowing down if you jump to a higher surface (eg. jump on a railing then jump again). This is most noticeable on ramps. Because of this marines can bhop up ramps, and if you crouch on the last jump off the ramp, you can do another hop on the ground.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Man himself (Flayra) has said knockback is a deliberate attempt to balance alien speed for the marines, and I don't see how it could be considered a huge balance problem (disregarding it being an annoyance <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->) considering the fact that for you to be knocked back in the first place, besides versus onos, you have to have taken damage. It's a more complex issue than that, but it still seems fair when you take into account the faster alien respawn time and faster movement which makes it simple for skulks to regain position. As long as a couple of your teammates finish the marine off, of course.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well...I once checked a test out........and it seemed to be right...the more ammo you bring, the slower you are...not much, but still, a little...could be important......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right about the ammo. There aren't any real weapon weights in NS, it's all ammo weight. By clip, the hmg is the heaviest, but of course you can only carry three of those. Shotgun ammo is next heaviest, and also the most efficient in terms of damage/weight (if i remember). Then GL and the LMG and pistol a distant last. Pistol weight is virtually negligible considering the 4 clip cap. GL is heaviest when you're maxxed on ammo because it can hold so many clips although, it's probably the per shot heaviest weapon, too.
Ammo weight is especially significant because you can't jump as far with a bigger load. You should be able to notice the speed decrease with the shotgun; if you can't, work on it <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> . I always load 20 and then just beg for ammo because loading up with max and then dying because you couldn't jump strafe around the fade isn't worth it...
HA is about as much of a slow down as the shotgun is. The "problem" (which is pretty much compensated by the tripled armor) you get is that HA is usually accompanied by HMGs and GLs, which makes it drasticly slower.
Search for ammo weight in the general forum there have been a couple really good posts on it in the past.
For example have 4 out of 5 marines in cargo in ns_tanith, and even if their hive is right next door they <i>will not take it back</i>. No chance - 2 IP marines don't just spawn faster than 1 Hive aliens, they'll also die at a third the rate. I've seen reasonably out-skilled teams hold these positions and win - because there is so damn many safety nets in place for marines. Get hit, get meds, get knockback, 3 bites with A1 and a bunch of friends to shoot the Skulk now standing alone in the middle of a room.
Especially midair knockback is just one counterbalance too many - if you can hit a marine where its harder (in the air), you shouldn't be punished for that.
you may also jump faster in some vents (depands on their height)
in some vents (in pervious versions where jumping didn't suck) you could BH really nicely
you may still BH in some, but in most it's better to just wall-strafe as you've mentioned (it boosts you in some 33%?)
Aliens always spawn faster than marines, and always move faster than marines. The spawn time for aliens is either 7 or 8 seconds, I can't remember, and the spawn time for marines is 10 seconds. That's how long you wait after you turn into a "Reinforcing".
And of course you can make silly situations like "5 marines are at the end of a long hallway they're getting meds oh and one has an aimbot what do you do" but the fact is, in real circumstances, a 5 on 5 match up has a pretty good chance either way, if both teams are equal. And even if the aliens lose, they have the advantage of being able to regroup faster (say 35 seconds - on average - to include respawning everyone and meeting back at the same spot).
Edit: not that this is a balance discussion...
What I recommend players do is get headphones, a really good inexpensive but effective headset is the Plantronics Audio 90s, for 30$ <a href='http://www.plantronics.com' target='_blank'>http://www.plantronics.com</a> . There are better headsets of course, but not for 30$. It makes determining the direction of which you are hearing things a lot easier than with speakers.
Sound effects aim, which effects movment. Learn to focus on the direction on which a threat is comming and I guarentee your K:D Ratio will go up, and your movment will be more efficient because you won't be reacting on pure reflex, you'll have a headsup on where to look.
gotta get my groove back
sleep is but step 1
And how often do you see marines with just one infantry portal? Even in the beginning of the game they usually get 2.
And how often do you see marines with just one infantry portal? Even in the beginning of the game they usually get 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In just about every clan match, until mid-game.
Which is why you can often fool even very skilled skulks by strafing the other way. They will, by reflex, turn to their left and prepare to jump after you, while you just took a small circular step in behind their right.
Evil.
[edit] Of course, knowing when to utilize the ridicously overpowered mid-air knockback bug and when to turn right is paramount. If you have the space, duck-jumping to the left is almost always better, but if you're in a corridor or a mid-small sized room or you're carrying a sg the alternative might be preferable.
And don't hesitate to turn around and retreat, either. Skulks will consciously (or unconsciously) try to put you in a situation where you have to fight the skulk close up. Frequently, this happens because 2 or 3 skulks rush you at the same time. You may kill one or two, but then the third one is right on you. If you turn around and leave you can at least buy yourself a second or two to reload and regroup. Walking around corners is great for this. If they're right on you, jump or glide erratically while still proceeding away. Then when you finish reloading you can whip around and re-engage. Not only will the retreat have disadvantaged the skulk by drawing him out, he'll be even more suprised when you turn around again.
Its basically an exploit of the big push of momentum it gives you to stop you dead in mid air. Unfortuentely it defines backward as greater than 90 degrees from your direction meaning you can fly sideways at stupid speeds.