Lets Change The Resource Model.... Again

RedDragonGecko · April 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Here me out</div> The problem with the current Alien resource model is since the resources are shared among the players, the amount of players on the team determines how slow or fast the res gain is. Another words a 4 player team will get res twice as fast as an 8 player team with the same number of res nodes.
So while the res model might be balanced at 8 vs 8 it becomes very unbalanced at 12 vs 12 or 4 vs 4.
This is nothing new and many players are already familar with this problem.

This is my solution. Lock the amount of resources each alien player gets from a res node. A value like .125 (you tell me) res per tick to all alien players per captured res node no matter how many players are on the team.

This is a simple solution that I think should work nicely.
Feel free to flame me if this has already been suggested.

Wyattx3 · April 2004

Well Image a team of 12 vs 12, 3 minute fades oohh lets say 6 go fade, 1 hive goes up in about 3 minutes as well.... ocs all around the map... nother hive goes up few minutes later.... then the other few that saved for onos, go onos, and end the game. Marines wouldnt be able to stand a chance because if its 12 vs 12 its probably a pub... everyone wants to do wut they want and ignoring everyone else... which is why pubs suck and noone should listen to pubbers in the first place.

GG

niaccurshi · April 2004

Wyattx3's post is the single most moronic post I've seen all year.

I actually can't even find the words to describe how absolutely laughable that post is, I just tried for 5 minutes.

BobTheJanitor · April 2004

All Gecko is saying is that the res model should be switched from the current set res per second regardless of the number of players to an absolute amount that each player gets per tick. So if you have three players and one res node you get (using his random number example) .125 res per tick per player. And if you have 16 players and one node, you STILL get .125 res per tick per player. So then any number of players at two nodes would be .25 res per tick per player. And so forth.

It actually sounds like a pretty sensible solution to the alien res imbalance. Now all that remains is to find a solution to marine res imbalance in large games, since they have set research costs.

Wyattx3 · April 2004

i dont think you understand, the amount of res aliens get if they even had 1 node in 5 minutes all the aliens could probably have 100 res.... and thats not good! And yet my post does not make sense becuz i am retarded btw.... its point is in there and it is relevant, just think harder.... The MAIN point is... when the aliens work together and use their res insynch (the way they should in the first place) it all works out the current way. Becuz when the marines are getting a total of 1 res per tick total.... aliens shouldnt get 12 in one tick... becuz with the overflow... that builds up waaay too fast. Even if the aliens have 2-3 res nodes.

Drakken · April 2004

And Wyatt is right, if that was to be put it, it would mean too fast of res gain for the aliens, seeing as EVERYONE gets the same amount no matter how many people are on the team. The marines would have to get 2 res per node or something to make it even in a way.

BOBDolol · April 2004

Wyatt.. basically what you want is what we have right now, and it's not working very well. In large games if the marines are good, the aliens will usually get slaugthered.

and this sounds like a great idea, it'll be cool if the devs give it a shot though i don't see that happening

cysab · April 2004

This super-fast resource for aliens in small games is a compensation for their lack of players. Marines need to be very aggressive to win these games. If they tech rush (jet packs) and try to take down the first hive fast (before second is up) it is _possible_ to win. I have seen this before, against a somewhat experienced alien team. The point is that aliens can't patrol the whole map and a good stealth player can infiltrate the hive and build PG, TF, Sieges before getting noticed, while the whole alien team is playing gorge somewhere else. Hive down in less than a minute. Sometimes it even work to shot rush the hive in small games. Most players will morph to gorge and go around the map to place RTs, while you could be taking down their hive in a few minutes.

In games with too many players (10x10?) aliens gain resource slower, but the total amount of res they get at the beggining is larger. So... they can build more RTs faster and at the same time have more skulks patrolling the map. Just don't waste all your res at useless OCs. You could go Fade instead of going gorge and dropping those 4 OCs inside hive. Skulks are for free and a bunch of them is better then a WOL. It will take longer for an onos to show up, but if skulks can do a decent job there is no need for one so early, skulk rushes and fades could do it.

Locking the ammount of res per-alien will overpower large alien teams with superfast res and penalize too much small ones. Resource system is like this for a reason.

GhostBomber · April 2004

Good idea, but it does seem like it might not be very fair. Let's look at some hard numbers, specifically for the .125 per tick (which is a good starting point).

Under the suggested system on a generic 8 node map:
4 aliens drop 3 nodes at the beginning, so they get .375 res per tick until another node goes up.

8 aliens drop 5 nodes at the beginning, so they get .625 res per tick until another node goes up.

12 aliens drop 6 nodes at the beginning (assuming that marines run out and grab a node very quickly), so they get .75 res per tick.

Under the current system on a generic 8-node map:
4 aliens drop 3 nodes at the beginning, so they get .75 res per tick until another node goes up.

8 aliens drop 5 nodes at the beginning, so they get .625 res per tick until another node goes up.

12 aliens drop 6 nodes at the beginning (assuming that marines run out and grab a node very quickly), so they get .5 res per tick.

So the suggested system would most definetely solve the low-game resource problems for aliens, it would in fact give large-game alien teams bigger amounts of res. I can't see any clear way to solve this problem without doing the whole 'different system for different numbers of people' thing that has been discussed endlessly.

BOBDolol · April 2004

cysab, i think most of us agree that aliens are overpowered in small games and underpowered in large games. It's really easy to win in small games as aliens when you could fade in 2 minutes, or onos in 4 minutes. The marines have a hard time dealing with higher lifeforms that early in the game. In large games, however, marines dominate. It doesn't matter if the aliens drop res, if the marines have good aim they will take them down fairly easily. Just because you have a lot of aliens does not mean you can go around capping every res node on the map, even though that would be necessary in order to have the same res flow as you would get in smaller games. Sure their TOTAL amount of res might be larger, but it doesn't matter when they can't really use those resources. It's better to have 3 alien with 50 res each than 10 aliens with 15 res. The thing is, even if there are MORE fades, they come at a much later time and the marines would be more than prepared to deal with them, and with the 2nd hive coming so much later the marines will also easily take that down as well. This is, of course, assuming all the players in the game are skilled. If they're all random pubbies that are just mediocre, then it's anybody's game.

Church · April 2004

Hmm...Gecko's idea may have some merit. All numbers are subject to testing of course and I think I have a solution for the marine side.

Solution: Let the amount of res that the commander gets also be a function of how many players there are (I am assuming even teams.) AND also let upgrade costs be a function of the numbr of players. So in a 4v4 game, MT might cost X, but on a 8v8 game, getting the same upgrade might cost 2x.

To prevent marines from just f4ing when the com upgrades and rejoining instantly, make it so the server checks how many players were on a minute ago. That way, if the marines f4 for a whole minute to lower the cost of upgrades, that's one whole minute you have to destroy their base when they have way less players.

Wirhe · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>when the aliens work together and use their res insynch (the way they should in the first place) </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Who told you that? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /> Tell him it's BS; marines were meant for teamwork, and aliens should be able to rambo from hearts content -or so the official manual claimed.

SaltzBad · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Apr 12 2004, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> All Gecko is saying is that the res model should be switched from the current set res per second regardless of the number of players to an absolute amount that each player gets per tick. So if you have three players and one res node you get (using his random number example) .125 res per tick per player. And if you have 16 players and one node, you STILL get .125 res per tick per player. So then any number of players at two nodes would be .25 res per tick per player. And so forth.

It actually sounds like a pretty sensible solution to the alien res imbalance. Now all that remains is to find a solution to marine res imbalance in large games, since they have set research costs. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Problem is, we're switching one imbalance for another - giving marines the ressource advantage in small games, and aliens in large (due to starting res, and how the personalized spending model works).

So say an average income rate for good ol' mr 4 minute fade would be 3 RTs - in a 3on3, we're going to have to putup 2 RTs immediately for that, leaving one Skulk to fight the marine RT-rush. Not to mention even 3 Skulks can't hold down more than ~3 nodes tops, and most importantly that leaves only one guy to go fade after 4 minutes of fighting 2 Shotgunners with 3 Skulks.

In large games on the other hand, it'd be easy to immediately get 5-6 nodes and hold them - giving Aliens a larger res advantage and <b>alot</b> more people that will go lifeforming up earlier than they do now (after all, under the current model, you're always going to need a similiar RT/player ratio).

In short, I don't like the approach much - small games work in their very own weird and fast-paced way, and I suppose thats as good as it gets for a 3on3 RTS/FPS. I'd rather not endanger already peculiar Fade/Skulk/Hive/Chamber ressource balance with something this drastic - and rather fix the early game Skulk. And the diffamous hitboxes of excuses +2.

Edit : If you want a tiny little ressource model fix, just set 6v6 as the standard game size - anything above that ADDS 1 point to the starting ressources, anything below it subtracts one. So in a 12v12 you'd start with 31 ressources, in a 1on1 you'd start with 20 - delaying the initial RTs, and hence making the res advantage a bit less crazy.

inkblot · April 2004

How about a system that varied slightly per amount of players on the alien team? Leave the res system as it is now, but make it so that the more aliens there are, the faster the RTs gather res. IE, with 2 people, it will be half to a third of the speed it is now, and with 15, its much faster than it is now (3.0b3).

cysab · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ Apr 13 2004, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>cysab, i think most of us agree that aliens are overpowered in small games and underpowered in large games. It's really easy to win in small games as aliens when you could fade in 2 minutes, or onos in 4 minutes. The marines have a hard time dealing with higher lifeforms that early in the game. In large games, however, marines dominate. It doesn't matter if the aliens drop res, if the marines have good aim they will take them down fairly easily. Just because you have a lot of aliens does not mean you can go around capping every res node on the map, even though that would be necessary in order to have the same res flow as you would get in smaller games. Sure their TOTAL amount of res might be larger, but it doesn't matter when they can't really use those resources. It's better to have 3 alien with 50 res each than 10 aliens with 15 res. The thing is, even if there are MORE fades, they come at a much later time and the marines would be more than prepared to deal with them, and with the 2nd hive coming so much later the marines will also easily take that down as well. This is, of course, assuming all the players in the game are skilled. If they're all random pubbies that are just mediocre, then it's anybody's game.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Agreed! But I was talking about a minimum of 4x4 and a maximum of 10x10 games.

4x4 is somewhat playable for marines and a skilled team could still win. Its not 50 W/50 L of course, maybe 30 W/70 L or something in between.

In 10x10 games its perfectly possible for aliens to win, but some aliens NEED to res **** from the start, the most skilled fades and onos of course. I'm pretty sure its a 50 W / 50 L rate.

Of course aliens are super-overpowered in 3x3 or less and underpowered in anything larger than 12x12, but hey... you can't apply a simple system to balance these unlikely situations.

NS wasnt really made for less than 4x4. More than 8x8 is only possible in pubs anyway and IF there is no stacking both teams will get an even number of skilled and unskilled players. Balance in NS is a dynamic thing. Player skills make more difference than game rules.

rknZ · April 2004

Since the rines upgrade and usally get res at a set rate, aliens shouldnt have the res divided amongst them the way it works now...

Now the res each alien gets is divided by the number of aliens there are which can be between 1 and 10 on most servers. Perhaps this should be limited, so they get it on a scale divided between 5 and 8...

<span style='color:yellow'><span style='color:gray'>....</span>1<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>2<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>3<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>4<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>5<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>6<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>7<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>8<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>9<span style='color:gray'>....</span>10<span style='color:gray'>...</span>11<span style='color:gray'>...</span>12<span style='color:gray'>...</span>13</span>

<span style='color:yellow'><span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.3<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.6<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.9<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.2<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.5<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.8<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.1<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.4<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.7<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span></span>

It's just a rough idea, and would need tweaking, but imo this would balance it quite a bit for larger and smaller games...

------------------------

Either this or Forlorns idea of making the cost of upgrades for marines work on a sliding scaled based on the team sizes.

Crono5 · April 2004

I say we should switch back to the older res system from 1.x, maybe a little more in favor of the Gorge, and give the Gorge the ability to cough up big giant sloppy balls of resources as presents to his team.

Lets Change The Resource Model.... Again

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