<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 15 2004, 11:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 15 2004, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3 HA = stomp, eat, heal, eat/gorge the remaining <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> uh no. Unless they're right around a corner you're gonna have lots of trouble getting away. 3 HA with HMGs/Shotties will tear you a new one really really fast. I dunno if you've ever Onos'd vs marines that can aim (ie in a scrim/match) Forlorn, but it's a lot different than pubs. The marines actually shoot you and they actually hit. You'd be surprised how many pubbing marines either won't notice an alien or will just miss. If I could bet on 3 HA or LA with decent shots vs an Onos, I'd bet on the marines.
Say the HMG shoots 15 bullets a second... (I'm pretty sure it's more but I'm just proving a point). 3 people shooting 15 bullets a second at 21.5 (weapons 2) damage per bullet (I don't know how HL rounds so I'll leave it at that). That's 45 * 21.5 = 967.5 damage per second... and it isn't too unreasonable to think that they hit every bullet on an Onos. The Onos would live for a little longer than 2 seconds, but in reality it's probably less because I'm pretty sure HMGs fire more than 15 bullets a second.
Actually the RoF of the HMG is exactly 15 bullets per second.
But you are considering the idealist of the ideal conditions for marines. How often do you find a lone onos, with no support, come up against 3 HMGs? Even a fade blinking by can distract the HMGs enough for a stomp and run. Not down a hallway of course, but where the onos can easily retreat. More aliens to help make the onos exponentially more useful. Add umbra and skulks leaping around tip the scales in favor of the aliens.
EDIT: You can't use aim as a factor in this. Even the beginning pubbers can keep a tracer on an onos.
1. Most of it is pretty much based on a classic VS combat view...oni is fine in classic and sucks in combat or vice versa, and bla bla bla... Combat is NOT classic, and classic is NOT combat...
2. Latest version out is still a beta...changes will happen...
3. I would assume that combat will be rather heavily revamped before the true version 3 of NS comes out...if thinking about what Flay said in his last interview(s)
I'm really starting to feel that combat and classic NS should be seperated in terms of stats and upgrades...with this I mean: Classic NS has hp/armor values and upgrades ect ect which is optimized for classic gameplay, and then combat with it's own unique values for hp/armor and upgrades...
I mean, these balance arguments will probably never end, but that's because some play combat only, some play classic only and some play a bit of both...and as we all know, combat is far from finished...
I remember the Onos from 1.04, and it was almost impossible to stop unless you were playing a defensive game, with 3 marines AND 4 turrets ripping it apart. In a small game of classic NS, an Onos is a devastating class against most marine attacks. In a larger game, it's not that difficult to pair up with another Onos and a lerk for support. Two Onos + a lerk vs 4 marines = alien win.
An unsupported Onos in combat should be able to be taken down easily. I see no reason for there to be a "tank of doom" in combat mode for the aliens, since in combat aliens often have the advantage anyways. Also, to even get Onos quickly in combat, you have to be pretty damn good @ skulking, thus implying that you are skilled in NS combat.
There's no reason why 1 Onos should be able to take down an entire group of marines on its own, unless it has support from other aliens or the marines suck and can't hit something as huge as an Onos. Marines have enough to deal with late in game such as Xeno ****, webs, gas/umbra, and scripting fades, that to give one class a clear advantage over a group of marines is rediculous.
Did it also not occur to anyone that the Onos, being such a huge and monstrous creature, automatically grabs any marines attention. It's simple fear. People up in close to an Onos are going to try and take it down whatever cost, meaning that they're distracted from the REAL threat, made up of smaller, more agile aliens that rip the marines apart from behind. HA trains are going to focus in on taking down the Onos, meaning that the fades and skulks are allowed more time to take down an HA or two, in a smaller game. In a larger game, you have more aliens taking out the greater number of HA's.
Basically, if the aliens have better teamwork than marines, taking down a heavy train shouldn't be all that difficult. Don't up the gore attack just to make life easier for the most terrifying class in the game.
There was a post a while back by somebody who mentioned a head plate for the onos. i wasnt able to find it so no link, but i thought it was a good idea. the onos as of now is only powerful because it has devour which nullifies the amount of armor HA gives. But if the onos also got more armor and lost devour, it might even the odds.
the headplate could come only with carapace, which is something an onos never gets. this would require more healing by regen to make it fair though. this however would make it too strong in combat, but i dont care much for combat. the headplate should act like the riot shield from CS where it blocks only the front while the sides and back are still vulnerable.
i think this idea could work with some tweaking of HP/AP and removal of devour for the onos.
Okay, 1 Onos vs. 3 HA really doesn't end up being much of a problem for the 'Nos, but it sould take one boost to take down the LAs. I mean, Onos costs 70-100 res or something (haven't played in a while). It should be able to take down a 0 cost player relatively quick.
There's a problem with Stomp/Devour, and that's ramps and stairs. Hit and run tactics don't work then, especially if there' on stairs in the distance with a great view from either side. Yeah, bad memories... I'm talking about the Cargo room outside of Fusion hive in Tanith. There were only 3, but they were damned near impossible to take down. They were using the stairs as cover, and even though the backside was a shorter path, they had it covered by one... When he went off, the other two HMGers and 1 GLer went into action. Now that I listen to it, it seems like I should've died, but I wasn't the only 'Nos, either. Two other people went, but we didn't assault together (stupid pubbers can't do anything right).
I'd agree more with this thread if the Onos was a game ender like it was in 1.04, but since it doesn't take more than 1/2 an hour to get to it, it had to be nerfed to some degree (actually, there's probably some way to not nerf it, but boost the other side, to keep it being fun, like a higher ROF or damage for advanced weapons or something).
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Apr 16 2004, 07:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Apr 16 2004, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually the RoF of the HMG is exactly 15 bullets per second.
But you are considering the idealist of the ideal conditions for marines. How often do you find a lone onos, with no support, come up against 3 HMGs? Even a fade blinking by can distract the HMGs enough for a stomp and run. Not down a hallway of course, but where the onos can easily retreat. More aliens to help make the onos exponentially more useful. Add umbra and skulks leaping around tip the scales in favor of the aliens.
EDIT: You can't use aim as a factor in this. Even the beginning pubbers can keep a tracer on an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Even 1 onos, 1 fade, and 1-3 skulks leaping in, vs 3 HA/HMG marines, I'd put my money on the marines. Umbra is a different story, it's just godly. So is leap vs anything but HA.
so... a 1 hit victory attack (devour) and an attack that renders the entire enemy team helpless (stomp) are not enough?
If your onos is having trouble killing 4 HA I would ponder the following question. Why the hell is your onos fighting 4 ha by himself?
If 1 onos could reliably kill over half the enemy team in their highest form in a short time period without help, do you realize that 2 onos would be a 100% guaranteed victory regardless of teamwork or skill or strategy?
Comments
uh no. Unless they're right around a corner you're gonna have lots of trouble getting away. 3 HA with HMGs/Shotties will tear you a new one really really fast. I dunno if you've ever Onos'd vs marines that can aim (ie in a scrim/match) Forlorn, but it's a lot different than pubs. The marines actually shoot you and they actually hit. You'd be surprised how many pubbing marines either won't notice an alien or will just miss. If I could bet on 3 HA or LA with decent shots vs an Onos, I'd bet on the marines.
Say the HMG shoots 15 bullets a second... (I'm pretty sure it's more but I'm just proving a point). 3 people shooting 15 bullets a second at 21.5 (weapons 2) damage per bullet (I don't know how HL rounds so I'll leave it at that). That's 45 * 21.5 = 967.5 damage per second... and it isn't too unreasonable to think that they hit every bullet on an Onos. The Onos would live for a little longer than 2 seconds, but in reality it's probably less because I'm pretty sure HMGs fire more than 15 bullets a second.
But you are considering the idealist of the ideal conditions for marines. How often do you find a lone onos, with no support, come up against 3 HMGs? Even a fade blinking by can distract the HMGs enough for a stomp and run. Not down a hallway of course, but where the onos can easily retreat. More aliens to help make the onos exponentially more useful. Add umbra and skulks leaping around tip the scales in favor of the aliens.
EDIT: You can't use aim as a factor in this. Even the beginning pubbers can keep a tracer on an onos.
Why?
Because:
1. Most of it is pretty much based on a classic VS combat view...oni is fine in classic and sucks in combat or vice versa, and bla bla bla...
Combat is NOT classic, and classic is NOT combat...
2. Latest version out is still a beta...changes will happen...
3. I would assume that combat will be rather heavily revamped before the true version 3 of NS comes out...if thinking about what Flay said in his last interview(s)
I'm really starting to feel that combat and classic NS should be seperated in terms of stats and upgrades...with this I mean:
Classic NS has hp/armor values and upgrades ect ect which is optimized for classic gameplay, and then combat with it's own unique values for hp/armor and upgrades...
I mean, these balance arguments will probably never end, but that's because some play combat only, some play classic only and some play a bit of both...and as we all know, combat is far from finished...
An unsupported Onos in combat should be able to be taken down easily. I see no reason for there to be a "tank of doom" in combat mode for the aliens, since in combat aliens often have the advantage anyways. Also, to even get Onos quickly in combat, you have to be pretty damn good @ skulking, thus implying that you are skilled in NS combat.
There's no reason why 1 Onos should be able to take down an entire group of marines on its own, unless it has support from other aliens or the marines suck and can't hit something as huge as an Onos. Marines have enough to deal with late in game such as Xeno ****, webs, gas/umbra, and scripting fades, that to give one class a clear advantage over a group of marines is rediculous.
Did it also not occur to anyone that the Onos, being such a huge and monstrous creature, automatically grabs any marines attention. It's simple fear. People up in close to an Onos are going to try and take it down whatever cost, meaning that they're distracted from the REAL threat, made up of smaller, more agile aliens that rip the marines apart from behind. HA trains are going to focus in on taking down the Onos, meaning that the fades and skulks are allowed more time to take down an HA or two, in a smaller game. In a larger game, you have more aliens taking out the greater number of HA's.
Basically, if the aliens have better teamwork than marines, taking down a heavy train shouldn't be all that difficult. Don't up the gore attack just to make life easier for the most terrifying class in the game.
the headplate could come only with carapace, which is something an onos never gets. this would require more healing by regen to make it fair though. this however would make it too strong in combat, but i dont care much for combat. the headplate should act like the riot shield from CS where it blocks only the front while the sides and back are still vulnerable.
i think this idea could work with some tweaking of HP/AP and removal of devour for the onos.
There's a problem with Stomp/Devour, and that's ramps and stairs. Hit and run tactics don't work then, especially if there' on stairs in the distance with a great view from either side. Yeah, bad memories... I'm talking about the Cargo room outside of Fusion hive in Tanith. There were only 3, but they were damned near impossible to take down. They were using the stairs as cover, and even though the backside was a shorter path, they had it covered by one... When he went off, the other two HMGers and 1 GLer went into action. Now that I listen to it, it seems like I should've died, but I wasn't the only 'Nos, either. Two other people went, but we didn't assault together (stupid pubbers can't do anything right).
I'd agree more with this thread if the Onos was a game ender like it was in 1.04, but since it doesn't take more than 1/2 an hour to get to it, it had to be nerfed to some degree (actually, there's probably some way to not nerf it, but boost the other side, to keep it being fun, like a higher ROF or damage for advanced weapons or something).
But you are considering the idealist of the ideal conditions for marines. How often do you find a lone onos, with no support, come up against 3 HMGs? Even a fade blinking by can distract the HMGs enough for a stomp and run. Not down a hallway of course, but where the onos can easily retreat. More aliens to help make the onos exponentially more useful. Add umbra and skulks leaping around tip the scales in favor of the aliens.
EDIT: You can't use aim as a factor in this. Even the beginning pubbers can keep a tracer on an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even 1 onos, 1 fade, and 1-3 skulks leaping in, vs 3 HA/HMG marines, I'd put my money on the marines. Umbra is a different story, it's just godly. So is leap vs anything but HA.
If your onos is having trouble killing 4 HA I would ponder the following question. Why the hell is your onos fighting 4 ha by himself?
If 1 onos could reliably kill over half the enemy team in their highest form in a short time period without help, do you realize that 2 onos would be a 100% guaranteed victory regardless of teamwork or skill or strategy?