<!--QuoteBegin-miniman227+Apr 14 2004, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (miniman227 @ Apr 14 2004, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Squinage+Apr 14 2004, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Squinage @ Apr 14 2004, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you think about it, a fully equiped HA cost more than 45 res (reserching into HA and HMG) where an onos, with upgrades cost 81 res max.
Fully equiped HA = HA 20, welder 5, HMG 20, research HA 40, upgrade armoury 30, 115 Max
Fully tanked up onos = gestation 75, upgrades 2 each, 81 res Max <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> umm HA's and HMG's only cost 15 each But thats still over 100 res all-up more than 1 alein can hold- duh Sorry I had to. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
The upgrades are a one time cost. That means that the number of marines in play (incremented each time one respawns) the cost is spread across all of them almost equally. In the case of HA, if you ended up giving out 20 HA's during the course of the game then the relative cost of each of those would have been 17 a piece. Furthermore, the more that you give out, the less that relative cost addition becomes to the point that it is virtually zero. Or you could look at it from the point of view that for the first 40 HA's you produce (supposing you produce that many) and from that point on the cost of the upgrade has been accounted for and thus you are no longer paying for it.
The only case where the proposed equation would hold true is if you only made a single HA with a single HMG and create no other HA's or advanced weaponry for the rest of the game. Even at giving out two sets the relative price comes down by half for each of the upgrades.
Now I'm not going to say that the cost of the upgrades shouldn't be calculated in. In calculus there is a concept of limits of equations. The limit of this equation would be the upgrades ending up costing nothing whatsoever on a per allocation basis... however it simply would take too many allocations to make that hold true. In average games, I would pose that the cost of these upgrades on a per unit basis is at the very most 5 for HA (8 are given out) and 3 for armory (10 adv. weaps given out)... and that's the very most. A lot of games see much more allocation than even this.
So in a normal game the equation then boils down thusly: 15(HA) + 5(Weld) + 15(HMG) + 3-5(HA R&D) + 1-3(ARM R&D) = 39-43 / unit
Then if you still actually believe in the equality of units based on res (which I firmly dont believe) you would see that a fully upgraded onos (81 res) is pretty close to the equivalent to 2 fully upgraded HA+HMG's. But then again that argument is absurd because it doesn't take into account tactics aspects such as unit placement and range as well as structure placement (a few turrets and an obs if the onos is cloaked makes the battle that much more in the marines favor). Also while the aforementioned adjusted formula takes into account the cost of research on a per unit basis it does not take into account the ability of armor / weapon / motion research to affect the res price and tactics used. Furthermore, skilled usage of the onos abilities in conjunction with properly chosen upgrades can tip the scales in its favor in many cases as well.
Plainly put, the argument that unit res cost indicates power is minimal as the true unit power is in how you use the unit and the tactical prowess that you have.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 14 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 14 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry Tails but you aren't correct on several accounts.
Aliens win more often than marines, (Don't believe me? Go find some stats) that's the #1 wrong assumption you make,
and Onos are nessesary counters to huge base farms (onos are completley invincible to turrets) and HA.
This comes from tons of clan play and pub experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> On the odd chance that a slightly better than decent commander has come along, the marines are almost guaranteed victory. The few rare cases where this doesn't hold true is when the aliens have a small handful of exceptionally skilled players.
Now I won't go so far as to say that the marines are outright better than the aliens given equivalent teams because clan play that I have witnessed doesn't seem to indicate that. It seems pretty close to even, although the marines tend to win slightly more often in my experience in clan matches.
The stat pages may indicate that aliens win more often, but they convey nothing as to why the aliens won. I have been on countless games where the 'rines just sat stupidly in their base and died rather quickly because no one would go comm... or even if someone did they were a very weak / unexperienced commander. In the case that a decent commander comes along (in pubs) then the game is usually a toss-up for about the first 4 minutes.... then it becomes heavily weighted towards one side or another, but its generally an even distribution of wins.
You would think that this means that there would be more even distribution on the stats, but the simple fact of the matter is that the population of decent comms or better is VERY thin. This is a side-effect of the onslaught of new players that Combat wrought. As a recommendation to server admins, follow the lead of some server organizations and either host only NS maps or only CO maps. That allows the people that want to play NS games to have a better chance of getting a decent game going. Of course, then my only fear is that the Classic mode will slowly shrink in availability considering the popularity of Combat for the large majority of players.
I don't know about getting rid of the Onos all together, or even lowering the cost for them. I think that the problem is with the marine upgrades. With fully upgraded weapons, any 2 marines can easily waste anything the aliens can throw out with LMGs, which I feel is absurd. Nerfing the DMG upgrades could be a start, or allowing for more alien upgrades somehow, outside of hive building.
I really don't know. I'm kinda torn. NS is funny because any game can become utterly hopeless for either team really quick, even with good comms. There are spots on maps where an Onos can put an absolute choke on marine progression outside of using GL.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tails+Apr 14 2004, 07:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Apr 14 2004, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After reading "Onos Claw Not Cutting It Vs Ha?", concerning the relative weakness of onos vs. HA (or anything bigger than my toe-nail), I thought: why should aliens have that expensive class at all? They die quick, wasting their res in the process, so why keep expensive classes to hinder them? Why not make some cheaper class instead, or nerf onos so that the cost could be the same as with fade? (50 at max).
Just in comparison: fully equipped HA costs 45 res, so that's just as much marines can lose per death at maximum.
Just look at the situation now: aliens are losing most of the matches, true, but are doing fairly well against anything not-turret-farmed. Onos isn't necessary, it's expensive, it's obsolete.
So, tell us your opinion: why should it be kept and why not? I have told mine with a good reason, so flame away <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm assuming you mean most clan matches not public games.
Most times im alien in a public game I notice marines being crushed into submission (By me (using a fade)).
When im onos 90% of the time aliens win, because unlike what the rest of u with your minds in 1.0 Onos is NOT a TANk anymore. Its a hit and run. u stomp **** the HA, eat 1, stomp retreat and repeat, and umbra does help alot, the onos ill admit is alittle weak but if you learn to play it you can turn the tides of a game in a snap
The matter of onos is all about teamwork, jsut like the rest of the game. A single HA with any kind of equipment will be torn to shreads by several skulks, and a lone onos will be torn to shreds by several marines.
2 lmgs "owning anything"? excuse me, just how new are you? I' ve played games with 5 HMGs shooting me (I was a 3 hive regen onos), and they could do nothing due to me having umbra+regen+3 dcs nearby. I charge in, devour one and run out. Then repeat. All the "insane damage ratings" and "high firing rate" was reduced to 0% efficiency due to simple teamwork. Just like a simple matter of teamwork on marine's part will drop an onos.
Teamwork, do you do it mother******? <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats why u dont run up against 5 heavies as a onos what do you expect? devour one run away devour one run away and you win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, so why keep the res cost so high if onos has been made for devouring and not going toe-to-toe with the heavy weight of marines? Frankly, why not just remove current onos and, say; replace it with that "devour beast" from Warcraft? (From which Flayra had taken example.)
Onos does not really even look like it would be capable of eating a whole man, much less to poop out one. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Tails+Apr 17 2004, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Apr 17 2004, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats why u dont run up against 5 heavies as a onos what do you expect? devour one run away devour one run away and you win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, so why keep the res cost so high if onos has been made for devouring and not going toe-to-toe with the heavy weight of marines? Frankly, why not just remove current onos and, say; replace it with that "devour beast" from Warcraft? (From which Flayra had taken example.)
Onos does not really even look like it would be capable of eating a whole man, much less to poop out one. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because 2 onos + 1 lerk at two hives can crush up to 6 ha's (that's 2 on 1 mind you - half of your team can be attacking the enemy base at the same time!), and 3 onos+1 lerk can shred up to 9-10 marines with ha at hive 3. Heck I've played games where skilled lerk/fade/onos trio (me being the lerk) can own a good squad consisting of 3 has and 3 jetties (note 2 on 1 ratio again, as well as the total cost on both sides).
Onos is a base crusher. Onos is a bullet sponge that can suck insane amount of damage. Onos a single kill creature. And the funniest thing is, onos is also one of the fastest creatures in the game (if not THE fastest), just try celerity+charge. I'm yet to see more then a handful of vets that can keep a charging celerity onos in their reticle for more then a short burst.
One player never equals half of the enemy team at same skill level in beta3 - otherwise 2 onos would equal entire enemy team, and any sort of teamwork would mean instant alien victory. You need teamwork every step of the way, there simply are no shortcuts - so don't ask for any to be made please. If you want a super being capable of taking on entire enemy team alone, I suggest CS and AWP sniper rifle. And if you want onos gone, ask yourself why. I see no flaw with onos, and there are a lot of people that like our cute little space cow <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
P.S. Next time you wonder how an onos can swallow a marine, find a onos standing still and look at his anus <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Apr 17 2004, 03:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Apr 17 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> P.S. Next time you wonder how an onos can swallow a marine, find a onos standing still and look at his anus <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I took your advice. Now i wonder why it can only swallow <b>one</b> marine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Barring CO-focused players aside (OMG THE SINGLE HMG PWNT MY ONOS!), another major factor is the aliens' ability to open up more than 1 front at a time with fades, onos, and even bilebombing gorges.
The marines may need a certain number, usually 2, to counter an attack, even if it's by one alien. 2 marines may be pre-occupied with trying to stack up to the vent to kill the biling gorge. Another 2 may be guarding the main base from the structure-ripping onos (here is something no other lifeform can do, durability + speed killing of strucs. Bile gorge or fade lack one of these).
The fact is, a small number of aliens can tie up almost the entire marine team. Maybe 2 fades are hit and running that heavy train, doing almost no damage to it but slowing it down. The team's onos then hits the marine base, forces a beacon and halts the marine attack. The onos then runs off laughing and takes out another 2 ERTs while the 2 fades repeat the slow down.
Or, the marines charge the 2nd hive. The onos, instead of trying to stop them and dying, rushes the marine base and kills off all their tech. Meanwhile, a bile gorge takes out 2 ERTs.
Suddenly the marines are techless and resourceless, even though their assault could have wiped out even 3 onos. But instead, a sacrifice (the hive) was made to ensure victory.
People simply CANNOT think in terms of raw power and cost to decide which side would win. The mobility, AND durability of the fade and onos are game winners. That they do high damage is an added bonus.
PGs help marines move fast, but leaves res nodes in between unguarded. JPs are mobile and with big guns pack a punch, but are easily neutered with umbra, or killed by a lerk, even a skulk.
HA are slow, leaving everywhere else undefended and vulnerable. Smart onos can pick them off. Sure, they may kill a hive or 2, but the kharaa are smart, they just need to replace the hives faster than they get killed and the marines will have their assault blunted.
Kharaa become strong at hive2. Once they get their 2nd hive, 6 upgrade chambers, and maybe 3 extra RTs (145 res), EVERY SINGLE RES CAN GO INTO A FADE OR ONOS. The first wave savers at the 4-6 minute mark can blunt marine advance, then the rest of the builders can catchup at the 6-8 min mark to rape the marines.
By comparion, minimal HA infrastructure tech costs (20+10+30+40+40 = 140res). That's excluding building RTs, ammo and meds, an extra IP, obs, arms lab upgrades, siege attempts, PGs, shotguns and welders and mines etc etc.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I think it could be fun if the comm can issue a 'fake' beacon just to scare off the onos in base. It should cost obs energy, and cost 0 res <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Rue+Apr 14 2004, 01:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rue @ Apr 14 2004, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lol iv devoured countless groups of HA with an onos, thats what onos are for, and if ff is on you sometimes get the HA killing each other
While I do find it uberly lame when onos devour and run after camping outside the rine spawn, its the most usefull weapon against HA the kharaa have
Edit: Just thought I'd add Natural Selection Classic should never be compromised for Combat balance, never! All these Co nubs are making it harder to get a good ns game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> seconded
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3 onos+1 lerk can shred up to 9-10 marines with ha at hive 3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course; but at hive 3 aliens have already won. It would be more realistic to assume that marines have a two hive lockdown; so how would it happen without lerk backup, umbra, second (or third) chamber, when marines just need to farm the hives and wait for the upgrades -onos being shot down in a matter of seconds even before he can reach the first turret? Therefore I would not say he is a "base crusher."
But that is beside the point: the subject was "should there even be expensive classes hindering aliens?"
Comments
Fully equiped HA = HA 20, welder 5, HMG 20, research HA 40, upgrade armoury 30, 115 Max
Fully tanked up onos = gestation 75, upgrades 2 each, 81 res Max <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm HA's and HMG's only cost 15 each
But thats still over 100 res all-up more than 1 alein can hold- duh
Sorry I had to. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
The upgrades are a one time cost. That means that the number of marines in play (incremented each time one respawns) the cost is spread across all of them almost equally. In the case of HA, if you ended up giving out 20 HA's during the course of the game then the relative cost of each of those would have been 17 a piece. Furthermore, the more that you give out, the less that relative cost addition becomes to the point that it is virtually zero. Or you could look at it from the point of view that for the first 40 HA's you produce (supposing you produce that many) and from that point on the cost of the upgrade has been accounted for and thus you are no longer paying for it.
The only case where the proposed equation would hold true is if you only made a single HA with a single HMG and create no other HA's or advanced weaponry for the rest of the game. Even at giving out two sets the relative price comes down by half for each of the upgrades.
Now I'm not going to say that the cost of the upgrades shouldn't be calculated in. In calculus there is a concept of limits of equations. The limit of this equation would be the upgrades ending up costing nothing whatsoever on a per allocation basis... however it simply would take too many allocations to make that hold true. In average games, I would pose that the cost of these upgrades on a per unit basis is at the very most 5 for HA (8 are given out) and 3 for armory (10 adv. weaps given out)... and that's the very most. A lot of games see much more allocation than even this.
So in a normal game the equation then boils down thusly:
15(HA) + 5(Weld) + 15(HMG) + 3-5(HA R&D) + 1-3(ARM R&D) = 39-43 / unit
Then if you still actually believe in the equality of units based on res (which I firmly dont believe) you would see that a fully upgraded onos (81 res) is pretty close to the equivalent to 2 fully upgraded HA+HMG's. But then again that argument is absurd because it doesn't take into account tactics aspects such as unit placement and range as well as structure placement (a few turrets and an obs if the onos is cloaked makes the battle that much more in the marines favor). Also while the aforementioned adjusted formula takes into account the cost of research on a per unit basis it does not take into account the ability of armor / weapon / motion research to affect the res price and tactics used. Furthermore, skilled usage of the onos abilities in conjunction with properly chosen upgrades can tip the scales in its favor in many cases as well.
Plainly put, the argument that unit res cost indicates power is minimal as the true unit power is in how you use the unit and the tactical prowess that you have.
Aliens win more often than marines, (Don't believe me? Go find some stats) that's the #1 wrong assumption you make,
and Onos are nessesary counters to huge base farms (onos are completley invincible to turrets) and HA.
This comes from tons of clan play and pub experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the odd chance that a slightly better than decent commander has come along, the marines are almost guaranteed victory. The few rare cases where this doesn't hold true is when the aliens have a small handful of exceptionally skilled players.
Now I won't go so far as to say that the marines are outright better than the aliens given equivalent teams because clan play that I have witnessed doesn't seem to indicate that. It seems pretty close to even, although the marines tend to win slightly more often in my experience in clan matches.
The stat pages may indicate that aliens win more often, but they convey nothing as to why the aliens won. I have been on countless games where the 'rines just sat stupidly in their base and died rather quickly because no one would go comm... or even if someone did they were a very weak / unexperienced commander. In the case that a decent commander comes along (in pubs) then the game is usually a toss-up for about the first 4 minutes.... then it becomes heavily weighted towards one side or another, but its generally an even distribution of wins.
You would think that this means that there would be more even distribution on the stats, but the simple fact of the matter is that the population of decent comms or better is VERY thin. This is a side-effect of the onslaught of new players that Combat wrought. As a recommendation to server admins, follow the lead of some server organizations and either host only NS maps or only CO maps. That allows the people that want to play NS games to have a better chance of getting a decent game going. Of course, then my only fear is that the Classic mode will slowly shrink in availability considering the popularity of Combat for the large majority of players.
HAIL!!! LONG LIVE CLASSIC!!!
I really don't know. I'm kinda torn. NS is funny because any game can become utterly hopeless for either team really quick, even with good comms. There are spots on maps where an Onos can put an absolute choke on marine progression outside of using GL.
Just in comparison: fully equipped HA costs 45 res, so that's just as much marines can lose per death at maximum.
Just look at the situation now: aliens are losing most of the matches, true, but are doing fairly well against anything not-turret-farmed. Onos isn't necessary, it's expensive, it's obsolete.
So, tell us your opinion: why should it be kept and why not? I have told mine with a good reason, so flame away <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming you mean most clan matches not public games.
Most times im alien in a public game I notice marines being crushed into submission (By me (using a fade)).
2 lmgs "owning anything"? excuse me, just how new are you? I' ve played games with 5 HMGs shooting me (I was a 3 hive regen onos), and they could do nothing due to me having umbra+regen+3 dcs nearby. I charge in, devour one and run out. Then repeat. All the "insane damage ratings" and "high firing rate" was reduced to 0% efficiency due to simple teamwork. Just like a simple matter of teamwork on marine's part will drop an onos.
Teamwork, do you do it mother******? <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
True, so why keep the res cost so high if onos has been made for devouring and not going toe-to-toe with the heavy weight of marines? Frankly, why not just remove current onos and, say; replace it with that "devour beast" from Warcraft? (From which Flayra had taken example.)
Onos does not really even look like it would be capable of eating a whole man, much less to poop out one. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
True, so why keep the res cost so high if onos has been made for devouring and not going toe-to-toe with the heavy weight of marines? Frankly, why not just remove current onos and, say; replace it with that "devour beast" from Warcraft? (From which Flayra had taken example.)
Onos does not really even look like it would be capable of eating a whole man, much less to poop out one. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because 2 onos + 1 lerk at two hives can crush up to 6 ha's (that's 2 on 1 mind you - half of your team can be attacking the enemy base at the same time!), and 3 onos+1 lerk can shred up to 9-10 marines with ha at hive 3. Heck I've played games where skilled lerk/fade/onos trio (me being the lerk) can own a good squad consisting of 3 has and 3 jetties (note 2 on 1 ratio again, as well as the total cost on both sides).
Onos is a base crusher. Onos is a bullet sponge that can suck insane amount of damage. Onos a single kill creature. And the funniest thing is, onos is also one of the fastest creatures in the game (if not THE fastest), just try celerity+charge. I'm yet to see more then a handful of vets that can keep a charging celerity onos in their reticle for more then a short burst.
One player never equals half of the enemy team at same skill level in beta3 - otherwise 2 onos would equal entire enemy team, and any sort of teamwork would mean instant alien victory. You need teamwork every step of the way, there simply are no shortcuts - so don't ask for any to be made please. If you want a super being capable of taking on entire enemy team alone, I suggest CS and AWP sniper rifle. And if you want onos gone, ask yourself why. I see no flaw with onos, and there are a lot of people that like our cute little space cow <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
P.S. Next time you wonder how an onos can swallow a marine, find a onos standing still and look at his anus <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I took your advice. Now i wonder why it can only swallow <b>one</b> marine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The marines may need a certain number, usually 2, to counter an attack, even if it's by one alien. 2 marines may be pre-occupied with trying to stack up to the vent to kill the biling gorge. Another 2 may be guarding the main base from the structure-ripping onos (here is something no other lifeform can do, durability + speed killing of strucs. Bile gorge or fade lack one of these).
The fact is, a small number of aliens can tie up almost the entire marine team. Maybe 2 fades are hit and running that heavy train, doing almost no damage to it but slowing it down. The team's onos then hits the marine base, forces a beacon and halts the marine attack. The onos then runs off laughing and takes out another 2 ERTs while the 2 fades repeat the slow down.
Or, the marines charge the 2nd hive. The onos, instead of trying to stop them and dying, rushes the marine base and kills off all their tech. Meanwhile, a bile gorge takes out 2 ERTs.
Suddenly the marines are techless and resourceless, even though their assault could have wiped out even 3 onos. But instead, a sacrifice (the hive) was made to ensure victory.
People simply CANNOT think in terms of raw power and cost to decide which side would win. The mobility, AND durability of the fade and onos are game winners. That they do high damage is an added bonus.
PGs help marines move fast, but leaves res nodes in between unguarded. JPs are mobile and with big guns pack a punch, but are easily neutered with umbra, or killed by a lerk, even a skulk.
HA are slow, leaving everywhere else undefended and vulnerable. Smart onos can pick them off. Sure, they may kill a hive or 2, but the kharaa are smart, they just need to replace the hives faster than they get killed and the marines will have their assault blunted.
Kharaa become strong at hive2. Once they get their 2nd hive, 6 upgrade chambers, and maybe 3 extra RTs (145 res), EVERY SINGLE RES CAN GO INTO A FADE OR ONOS. The first wave savers at the 4-6 minute mark can blunt marine advance, then the rest of the builders can catchup at the 6-8 min mark to rape the marines.
By comparion, minimal HA infrastructure tech costs (20+10+30+40+40 = 140res). That's excluding building RTs, ammo and meds, an extra IP, obs, arms lab upgrades, siege attempts, PGs, shotguns and welders and mines etc etc.
Get the picture?
While I do find it uberly lame when onos devour and run after camping outside the rine spawn, its the most usefull weapon against HA the kharaa have
Edit: Just thought I'd add
Natural Selection Classic should never be compromised for Combat balance, never!
All these Co nubs are making it harder to get a good ns game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
seconded
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3 onos+1 lerk can shred up to 9-10 marines with ha at hive 3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course; but at hive 3 aliens have already won. It would be more realistic to assume that marines have a two hive lockdown; so how would it happen without lerk backup, umbra, second (or third) chamber, when marines just need to farm the hives and wait for the upgrades -onos being shot down in a matter of seconds even before he can reach the first turret? Therefore I would not say he is a "base crusher."
But that is beside the point: the subject was "should there even be expensive classes hindering aliens?"