Natural Evolution Of Ns Builds

Fade_DunawayFade_Dunaway Join Date: 2003-05-12 Member: 16235Members
edited April 2004 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Anyone else see this?</div> From 1.x to present, I've noticed a disturbing trend that emerges as each build gets older;

Early on, the aliens seem to be a little over the top (which was only really true in early 2.x). Balance tweaks are made and things seem to be "good."

But for some reason, towards the end of each build, the marines gain a solid upperhand in the first 5 minutes of the game.

My theory is that this is maintained in 3.x because of the new Lerk. While definately fun and interesting, the lack of spikes make it so the marines can infinately position themselves in long hallways, large rooms, etc. The rush of skulks can't stand up to the combined LMG fire. Shotguns take care of lerks and fades with efficiency.

Even the powerhouse fade has a hard time overcoming this "distance barrier." And with only 1 hive (early game) lerks can't umbra friends. In many rooms and halls, I'd be scared to go 1 hive Onos, even with defense upgrades.

Again the aliens feel like the hunted instead of the hunters. What do you think contributes to this in each build, and why does it take so long to emerge?

Comments

  • rknZrknZ Join Date: 2003-10-23 Member: 21885Members
    I want spikes back too <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • NikonNikon Join Date: 2003-09-29 Member: 21313Members, Constellation
    let the upcomming patch do the talking, if these issues are not addressed there, then continue discussion. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    I have a feeling that with the newly announced system, map tweaks and balance changes, some of the outstanding concerns will go away.
  • explodingheadboyexplodingheadboy Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15636Members, Constellation
    Psst... the aliens *are* the hunted.

    Let me let you in on a little secret. The TSA (y'know the marines) they hunt down the Kharaa and attempt to destroy them aggressively wherever they pop up.
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    they are both hunters, Kharaa hunt down all human facilities and take them over, TSA tries to take the facilities back and destroy the Kharaa
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-explodingheadboy+Apr 21 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (explodingheadboy @ Apr 21 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Psst... the aliens *are* the hunted.

    Let me let you in on a little secret. The TSA (y'know the marines) they hunt down the Kharaa and attempt to destroy them aggressively wherever they pop up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In the larger sense, the aliens are the hunted ones, yes.

    In the smaller sense, TSA is supposedly coming into each map only after significant infestation has already happened. So they're effectively going into the aliens turf.. ergo.. they're the prey.
  • Fade_DunawayFade_Dunaway Join Date: 2003-05-12 Member: 16235Members
    Well they are the hunted, but it seems more like shooting bunny-rabbits in its current state than fighting an aggressive species of hyper-evolved bacteria <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Marines dominate the early game because base marines are MUCH stronger than skulks. You can send marines out ramboing to grab nodes, and they can fight off multiple skulks by themselves with a little luck. That doesn't fit with the marine's intended playstyle in the slightest. With their fast expansion and superior firepower marines usually have their way in the early game. Aliens generally have to get Hive 2 and/or a Fade and start playing catchup.
  • panda_de_malheureuxpanda_de_malheureux Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24775Members
    marines intended play style is to use teamwork.. aliens are the fraggers.
    and the teams are balanced when they are even, there is no need to make marines weaker in any period of the game.
  • camO_ocamO_o Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28028Members
    marines dont need teamwork: the comm coordinates and keeps the troops in line most of the time. the most "teamwork" kind of thing marines have to do is all phasing in at the same time, going the right direction, etc. the aliens, especially skulks really need teamwork. for example, have lerks sporing a contested area to bring down armor, and let the skulks mop off. or, use umbra to protect friendlies (highly effective) really helps.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    Marines only dominate the early game if the aliens don't use adequate team work. If the aleins properly deny the marines thier res locations and keep an eye on thier res network they generally should have no problem holding ground in the early game. Skulks can be anywhere on the map within 30 seconds, and the marines are at risk whenever they are moving (due to having to pass corners and vents) so a good alien team should have reasonable control over the entire map for most of the game (even if there are a couple elect res nodes)
  • Fade_DunawayFade_Dunaway Join Date: 2003-05-12 Member: 16235Members
    Swiftspear -- marines can rush many res points and even hives before skulks can make it there to lay ambush. This is part of the problem also.
  • 7Bistromath7Bistromath Join Date: 2003-12-04 Member: 23928Members, Constellation
    edited April 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Apr 21 2004, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Apr 21 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-explodingheadboy+Apr 21 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (explodingheadboy @ Apr 21 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Psst... the aliens *are* the hunted.

    Let me let you in on a little secret. The TSA (y'know the marines) they hunt down the Kharaa and attempt to destroy them aggressively wherever they pop up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In the larger sense, the aliens are the hunted ones, yes.

    In the smaller sense, TSA is supposedly coming into each map only after significant infestation has already happened. So they're effectively going into the aliens turf.. ergo.. they're the prey. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Uhh, no? That's exactly the opposite of what that would mean. If the marines are horning in on the aliens' turf, that means the aliens are on the defensive side.
  • ThE_HeRoThE_HeRo Join Date: 2003-01-25 Member: 12723Members
    Beginning alien game is very weak. I think if skulks were allowed to have free upgrades, it'd make early game more balenced.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Fade Dunaway+Apr 21 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fade Dunaway @ Apr 21 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From 1.x to present, I've noticed a disturbing trend that emerges as each build gets older;

    Early on, the aliens seem to be a little over the top (which was only really true in early 2.x). Balance tweaks are made and things seem to be "good."

    But for some reason, towards the end of each build, the marines gain a solid upperhand in the first 5 minutes of the game.

    My theory is that this is maintained in 3.x because of the new Lerk. While definately fun and interesting, the lack of spikes make it so the marines can infinately position themselves in long hallways, large rooms, etc. The rush of skulks can't stand up to the combined LMG fire. Shotguns take care of lerks and fades with efficiency.

    Even the powerhouse fade has a hard time overcoming this "distance barrier." And with only 1 hive (early game) lerks can't umbra friends. In many rooms and halls, I'd be scared to go 1 hive Onos, even with defense upgrades.

    Again the aliens feel like the hunted instead of the hunters. What do you think contributes to this in each build, and why does it take so long to emerge? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The entire point of spores is area denial
  • OmegamanOmegaman Join Date: 2004-01-11 Member: 25239Members
    edited April 2004
    Its not the kharra or marines that are unbalanced.

    Most of the time its just that in some spot of a map, the aliens have the advantage (A nearby vent to retreat to) and in some parts of the map, the marines have the advantage (a narrow long hallway). There's no way to fix it, nor is there a way make a perfect map.

    Oh, that and the players. Its the players that unbalance the game.
  • keep_it_Gangstakeep_it_Gangsta Join Date: 2003-06-23 Member: 17632Members
    Put it this way, 1 basic marine vs 1 basic skulk <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    I played a combat 1 on 1, and whooped the skulk over and over.

    Then when I was skulk, I got whooped over and over.

    It could be I was just better at marine or suck as skulk.
  • demonxdemonx Join Date: 2004-03-18 Member: 27414Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-keep it *G*angsta+Apr 22 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (keep it *G*angsta @ Apr 22 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Put it this way, 1 basic marine vs 1 basic skulk <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    I played a combat 1 on 1, and whooped the skulk over and over.

    Then when I was skulk, I got whooped over and over.

    It could be I was just better at marine or suck as skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Get the right upgrades and know when to attack then usually <b>Skulk > Marine</b>. But if everything is default, then marines are stronger and better, and it should be that way.
  • Salvation_r2Salvation_r2 Join Date: 2003-11-26 Member: 23606Members
  • AreteArete Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5921Members
    I think the commander is the defining thing as to why marines generally do better.

    There is a central person saying "Everyone do this".

    The problem with Aliens is there is no overview of the map to say go here, do this, do that.

    It would be nice in Beta 4 if someone was deemed the "Brood Mother" or something like that and maybe sat at the hive attatched to it even and commanded the aliens to go places. Perhaps its just an advanced race that is a gorge, but bigger/slower and can't leave a certain radius of the hive, but they can setup defense ect, and gain resources faster. I dunno, but I do think the commander is a key component for marines succeeding more often than aliens early on.

    Right now you have people saving for early fade, not placing resource towers, running around randomly not working as a team.

    With motion tracking as a solo marine you can just about manage to avoid all the aliens, and if you don't you kill them by knowing they are coming.
  • Fade_DunawayFade_Dunaway Join Date: 2003-05-12 Member: 16235Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Apr 22 2004, 12:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Apr 22 2004, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Fade Dunaway+Apr 21 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fade Dunaway @ Apr 21 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From 1.x to present, I've noticed a disturbing trend that emerges as each build gets older;

    Early on, the aliens seem to be a little over the top (which was only really true in early 2.x). Balance tweaks are made and things seem to be "good."

    But for some reason, towards the end of each build, the marines gain a solid upperhand in the first 5 minutes of the game.

    My theory is that this is maintained in 3.x because of the new Lerk. While definately fun and interesting, the lack of spikes make it so the marines can infinately position themselves in long hallways, large rooms, etc. The rush of skulks can't stand up to the combined LMG fire. Shotguns take care of lerks and fades with efficiency.

    Even the powerhouse fade has a hard time overcoming this "distance barrier." And with only 1 hive (early game) lerks can't umbra friends. In many rooms and halls, I'd be scared to go 1 hive Onos, even with defense upgrades.

    Again the aliens feel like the hunted instead of the hunters. What do you think contributes to this in each build, and why does it take so long to emerge? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The entire point of spores is area denial <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Spores are largely ineffective when the marines already control enough res for health packs, and does not effect buildings. I've never seen a lerk spore out a phase gate before.

    Spikes act quickly enough to keep the marines' heads down a bit, where spores are more annoying than anything.
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-camO.o+Apr 21 2004, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (camO.o @ Apr 21 2004, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> marines dont need teamwork: the comm coordinates and keeps the troops in line most of the time. the most "teamwork" kind of thing marines have to do is all phasing in at the same time, going the right direction, etc. the aliens, especially skulks really need teamwork. for example, have lerks sporing a contested area to bring down armor, and let the skulks mop off. or, use umbra to protect friendlies (highly effective) really helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The marines taking orders from the comm is a teamwork thing. If you don't follow orders by your comm, do you really think you are being a "team" player?

    And in fact, that's like 2/3rds of the success of human team.. just having the marines follow orders.
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-keep it *G*angsta+Apr 22 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (keep it *G*angsta @ Apr 22 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Put it this way, 1 basic marine vs 1 basic skulk <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    I played a combat 1 on 1, and whooped the skulk over and over.

    Then when I was skulk, I got whooped over and over.

    It could be I was just better at marine or suck as skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    maybe your just a good rine and a crappy alien
  • AmagiusAmagius Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28022Members
    edited April 2004
    It's obvious that the aliens were getting slightly overpowered, so they take away the aliens' gift of long range. Spikes, gone. Acid Rocket, nerfed.

    Now, it's become that the aliens have to get proficient with the skulk, and learn how to use it most effectively. Now, a lone Fade cannot rush and take down utilities and marines with ease.

    Most of it sounds great, but I think that Skulks should made into fighters instead of stepping stones.

    EDIT: P.S. I think they should find a way to nerf Skulk rushes, yet also make Skulks more of a fighter.
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    I remember 2.00 I could skulk and kill a group of 4 or 5 rines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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