gliding in the presensce of marines is just dumb..you got shot right out of the air. they arent hard to track.
skulks can bounce around like crackbabies to avoid getting hit why shouldnt lerk be afforded the same thing? the fact is as the lerk every time you change direction you had to flap again at least twice to get to full speed again. so that made evasive flying too energy expensive. even trying to get near jetpackers was very annoying as you constantly have to adjust your trajectory which required more flapping hence more energy.
pancaking is lame. an effective melee lerk is what i'm arguing for.
some current lerk counter-arguments were that it made other than celerity upgrade useless:
- well, if you want to be support lerk (2 hives) or spore **** lerk early, adren is still your best, to allow you spam much more often, you will be hidden anyway because if game is not over at 2 hives marines likely have high-tech guns/upgrades. I was using both celer and adren with new lerk, while only adren with old lerk, when marines reloced to power silo i choosed adren for lerk and simply spored them to death from top, no need for celer in such cases!
argument was raised that old lerk could still fly and attack:
- old lerk flight was nothing for skilled marine, you could kill such lerk in no time, with just tine direction changes it was very easy to track old lerk and bring it down. Only chance for old lerk to survive was staying in vents or crawl on the ground behind larger aliens..
someone said that lerk is too fast: - THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG, LERK IS NOT FASTER THAN SKULK OR FADE WITH CELERITY !! Do yourself a favor and before stating such nonsense test it with cl_showspeed. Speed of leaping celer skulk: +-820 .. with bunny leap, its well over 1000!! Speed of blinking celer fade: +-944 .. with bunny blink again over 1000!! Speed of celer lerk flight: 749 sustained in 1 direction .. with script burst speed during takeoff can get over 1000 and up to 1500 in rooms with high ceilings .. this is still not faster than bunny leap skulk, and someone said lerk is 10x faster than leap.. nonsense.. Blocking scripts (adding delay between flaps) and capping speed properly to 750 is easy solution to current excess speed with some scripts, but infinite energy is not a problem.
@Licho: Eh, current Celerity/Regen Lerk has about a 2% chance of ever being it by gunfire if flown right. You shouldn't give a flying monkeys behind wether marines have supar high tech weaponry or not - it won't connect more than once in a blue moon anyway.
@phunktion: Duh, while near marines you'll want topspeed - although you don't need the current "spam flaps" method for that. And Lerks remain easy to track in any direction but the uncapped vertical at Hive 1, no matter what you do. It does however have barely sufficient speed to simply fly out of the line of fire fast enough with nothing but barebones evasion, and way enough energy to keep the speed up to do so. So again, unless you flew right headon to a marine you were never in danger (and even then, good ol' pancaking worked just as well in B3).
As for Skulks, did I miss something? A Hive 1 Skulk is a huge sitting duck, he can't "hop around like a crack bunny" to avoid fire - the best he can do is build up speed outside marine range and then hop at them at a point that is favorable for him. Simply jumping repeatedly and changing direction makes him no harder to hit - and the most instant acceleration he can get, aka gliding, doesn't either.
I don't know what you see whats so necessary about "evasively" moving the mouse up and down while constantly flapping (as you seem to only be advocating a timelimit on flapping - which would do fairly little, other than make the lerk even more boring. It wouldn't address the infinite vertical speed [directly. The effect remains the same, the amount of acceleration bursts are just less]) - the ability to fly infront of a bunch of marines and just monkey around forever is amazingly unbalanced, nothing else.
And jetpackers you used to just intercept, which was very easy unless it was a tight co map with 7 teammates chasing after the same guy. But co sucks anyway, so who cares. In classic there was again little energy problems in catching a JPer - the biggest challenge there was in not getting killed (again talking about the Hive 1 Lerk), since you ran the danger of going level or below his gun, making you really easy to hit even from a moving platform.
as far as skulks i'm refering to close quarters when you within bite range. skulks that stay on the floor while trying to bite be ususally die.
its not just about moving the mouse up an down and spamming flaps..its about being to move upredictably with enough energy left to bite and spore/umbra. your righht about the uncapped vertical speeds... when a lerk is pancaking he is moving at 1000-2000 speed..and then is able to change direction instantly when hitting the ground or ceiling.
i remeber in 1.0 lerks took damge if they accerated too fast in to walls..maybe that needs to be reintroduced
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 26 2004, 09:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 26 2004, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> some current lerk counter-arguments were that it made other than celerity upgrade useless:
- well, if you want to be support lerk (2 hives) or spore **** lerk early, adren is still your best, to allow you spam much more often, you will be hidden anyway because if game is not over at 2 hives marines likely have high-tech guns/upgrades. I was using both celer and adren with new lerk, while only adren with old lerk, when marines reloced to power silo i choosed adren for lerk and simply spored them to death from top, no need for celer in such cases!
argument was raised that old lerk could still fly and attack:
- old lerk flight was nothing for skilled marine, you could kill such lerk in no time, with just tine direction changes it was very easy to track old lerk and bring it down. Only chance for old lerk to survive was staying in vents or crawl on the ground behind larger aliens..
someone said that lerk is too fast: - THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG, LERK IS NOT FASTER THAN SKULK OR FADE WITH CELERITY !! Do yourself a favor and before stating such nonsense test it with cl_showspeed. Speed of leaping celer skulk: +-820 .. with bunny leap, its well over 1000!! Speed of blinking celer fade: +-944 .. with bunny blink again over 1000!! Speed of celer lerk flight: 749 sustained in 1 direction .. with script burst speed during takeoff can get over 1000 and up to 1500 in rooms with high ceilings .. this is still not faster than bunny leap skulk, and someone said lerk is 10x faster than leap.. nonsense.. Blocking scripts (adding delay between flaps) and capping speed properly to 750 is easy solution to current excess speed with some scripts, but infinite energy is not a problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A leaping skulk can't stay in leap forever nor can a fade blink forever. A lerk can pancake until the cows come home.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapacious+Apr 25 2004, 09:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapacious @ Apr 25 2004, 09:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just cannot see why the Lerk was even considered to be changed - Bring out the nerfstick and fix the damn class <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My hero.
So a lerk flying at top speed would be moving only 70 clicks less than a LEAPING skulk? That's kinda nuts, no wonder the buggers were so hard to hit. (I am assuming this is normal flight and not super pancake flight) And that's wonderfully coupled with a near-useless shotty(there's nothing quite like having a close-range weapon that doesn't work at close range <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and completely messed-up hitboxes, I'm surprised I didn't drop beta3 out of pure disgust... no wait... I did... multiple times... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The problem here is that people can't have it both ways... You can't have a crapy lerk in classic that costs a whopping 30 res. If you want the old lerk back then half the cost to 15 res so it costs what it is worth.
I'm liking the new lerk in CLASSIC. When you fork out 30 res you want to get some air time for your investment. The lerk flight model of past builds was too weak. All that the lerk needs is spikes back and it will be in great shape...
The issue I see here is that the lerk is more of a nuisance in COMBAT, which is true. That's not necessarily because of the flight model, but moreso because there is NO COST. You wouldn't see combat lerks do what they do in classic because they would get killed and the res would be wasted.
All that really needs to be done is to fix the pancaking issue WITHOUT nerfing the lerk or going back to flight using adrenaline. I need to play lerk more in classic to really get an idea of how I feel, but so far I like it.
Combat is another issue entirely, and I really think that it will get impossible to make the game the same in both combat and classic without making some huge sacrifices to good gameplay in both. A lose-lose proposition in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin-phunktion+Apr 26 2004, 11:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (phunktion @ Apr 26 2004, 11:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as far as skulks i'm refering to close quarters when you within bite range. skulks that stay on the floor while trying to bite be ususally die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason for that is the speedbost from glidejumping necessary to close range for multiple bites, not any real evasive ability aside from putting obstructions or other marines between his attackers line of fire. I trust noone has a real problem hitting Hive 1 Skulks in melee-jumps.
And unlike the Lerk, the Skulk can't fly away - he has to kill every single person once he engages, unless he gets a lucky break.
I enjoy lerk flight, i have no problem killing them even with a level 0 shotgun. If anything that kills me its not the lerk flight or spores, its the amazing overly uber super bite speed, by the time you get hit you have absolutely no or .5 of a second to somehow evade that second bite which early game as we all know is the death blow.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Apr 26 2004, 02:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Apr 26 2004, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And unlike the Lerk, the Skulk can't fly away - he has to kill every single person once he engages, unless he gets a lucky break. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> and they also cost zero res.
About the only thing I can agree with in all of theses post is the fact that lerks flight "should" cost something.....I agree with the halved amount from beta 3....it would allow for flight and abilities without the annoying "stalled" lerk which is an easy kill and a waste of res.
The thing I do NOT agree with is some of the people comparing lerk flight with leap and blink skills....these are no where near similar and should never be placed in the same sentence imho. Leap is a hive two ability and blink is a hive one ability...Lerk flight you need zero hives to use it and isnt considered part of the hive abilities that use intense amounts of energy to use.
Lerk flight was fine before....to make it better imo shouldn't mean to take away all energy cost from it..only tweak the energy cost it had before..... and put the energy cost between b3 and b4...basically half the amount that was used in b3....yeah you would get a few pancaking Lerks but they would not have the indefinate ability to do so...which is just annoying and bad sportmanship....
and for some who say "learn to aim and you can kill them" haven't been against someone who knows how to do it....the Lerk simply dis-appears from your screen even at a 20 ping and 100 fps they are simply not there to hit
BTW if your so good at hitting them while they do it...a quick thing to think about...turrts cannot even hit a pancaking Lerk with any great accuracy and they have aimbots working for them <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It makes the Lerk more accessible? The Lerk was the most accessible NS creature, due to him not requiring any knowledge of the half-life engine, but just intuitive action like in some sort of heavily over-simplified flightsim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-I'm sorry, but I've been playing since 1.0 and I really dont see how you can say this. While the lerk controls are simple enough to learn and, starting with 2.0+, easier to master, its role/effectivness/worth radically shifted in the switch from 1.0 to 2.0 due to previously stated reasons. I can see the reasoning in saying that flight is intuitive, and even the reasoning in the slightly exaggerated comparison with the class to a flight simulator. However it is not the skill required to fly that is in question, atleast I'm not questioning it, but infact its playability. As I said before, with the lerk, staying alive has always been top priority. And while you say that from 2.0 to 3.0b3, adrenaline was not needed except for pure support roles, I believe you are over simplifying close combat. From past experience, it is possible to not use all energy, even starting at max and top flight speed, in a melee battle, but how effective is it when playing against skilled opponents, to fly in bite maybe once or twice, and then have to retreat all the way back to the hive, because you nearly died. Regeneration becomes pointless at higher tech levels for marines, you simply take damage too quickly without additional armor or umbra. -In terms of accessibility, the lerk is just as accessible as any other upgrade, in literal terms, the difference is that while each class has their own specific strengths and weaknesses, the lerk takes a relatively greater amount of skill to play correctly, especially at hive 1, and especially with out adrenaline, until now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The (hive 1) Lerk has become stronger ? No he hasn't, the main reason the Hive 1 Lerk died was his topspeed - he had plenty of energy to takeoff with half a tank, attempt to dodge and make for an exit under fire. The problem was, he didn't have the speed anywhere but vertical to make this effective. Hive 1 Lerks still were a highly effective class. Not just because of Spores, but because of their ability to scout out the map and go into melee attacks at favorable locations (meaning anywhere approach/escape was simplified, you could pretty safely engage a few guys). The Hive 2 Lerk is obviously noticably improved regardless of vertical exploits, as Celerity+buttonmashing = win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Again, Saltzbad, I believe you are over simplifying the skill it takes to lerk correctly. I'm not exactly sure what servers you play on or whom you play with, but I can see how against inexperienced marines, the old system allowed you to take on multiple marines at hive 1, without adrenaline or celerity. However, in my experience, it is possible to engage multiple marines at hive 1, but exceptionally risky when just using melee combat. In most cases, the Marines will upgrade to Level 1 Armor within a few minutes. As was pointed out, it takes a lerk three bites without medpacks to kill a marine with level one armor. Skilled marines do not simply stand still and let you bite them while trying to shoot you. A dodging marine is not so difficult to hit, but it still takes time, and in a group of two or more marines, this is plenty of time to kill a hive 1 lerk, simply because they are so easy to hit. To be honest, I don't see how flying straight up to take advantage of the faster speed is even worth while when you can't escape a room by flying upwards, it simply becomes a delay, either way the bullets will still connect, and if you arent careful, you will die. This kind of risk is even more significant when playing against exceptionally skilled players, such as Romano, who can certainly kill multiple lerks in close combat at hive 1 if they are not very skilled and very careful. -Also, your forumal for "win" is a bit flawed. As you've already pointed out, the only way to take advantage of a max flight speed is to flight straight upwards. This 1000-2000 air speed does not continue when you level off to leave a room, leaving a large window of vulnerability for a wounded lerk. And considering the old flight cost, button mashing to reach this vertile max speed would simply leave you with barely enough to make it out of the room and around the next corner. This doesnt even take into account marines that chase you, leaving you with an even bigger vulnerability. Albiet, celerity would increase your chances of escape and ability to dodge, however, without energy to attack, you are simply running for your life. I reiterate, it is not skill of the player that is coming into question, atleast by me, it is however the cost effectivness, and actual playability of the lerk for everyone and all styles of play, public games and professional matches alike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Lerk now "has more upgrade options" ? What in the world would make anyone say this? Its the polar opposite - every upgrade except Celerity has been discouraged heavily now. Silence was the only one that never was overly popular, but useful none the less. Right now you're a fool if you don't exploit the infinite flight energy with Celerity for invulnerability right in Marine Spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -I can say very simply, and infact, I have in essence already explained this reasoning several times in this post alone. However, I fail to see how "polar opposite" my argument is when your experiences are as valid as my experiences. I have already discussed how the old system handicapped celerity with flight cost, in addition to bite/umbra/spore cost, the rate at which adrenaline is regained is very slow, making flying limited, and if you cant fly, then why not just get adrenaline and spam spores or umbra? And then you go to say that every upgrade has been discouraged because of this change, with the exception of celerity. I cannot see the reasoning behind this statement, except in that with the new 0 cost flight system it has become easier to use Celerity, and players are not restricted to Adrenaline in order to be an effective lerk. While it would seem that Celerity has now become more usefull than Adrenaline or Silence, the usefulness of the other upgrades has not diminsihed because of this changed, infact they have become more effective. Silence, being the least affected by this change in my eyes, has still risen in terms of usefullness, because adrenaline is not needed for flight, so a lerk, while slow, can now make more stealthy attackes without worrying about being able to escape with energy. Finally, a lerk is not invulnerable by any means, and to think so is infact to be foolish. And while I see the usefullness of the "pancaking" ability, like bunny hopping, I personally choose not to use it. Call me a fool if you will, however I would like to think (to make a poor analogy) that a man does not steal from an open safe just because he can. (on this last note I could also bring a more political and moral analogy into reference. However, I believe that with respectful consideration, the point of my analogy still gets across.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -True, just as adrenaline has never been, and will never be mandatory for gorges, but it is a good idea. Just as celerity, scent of fear, carapace, regeneration, redemption, and focus are not mandatory by any means. You are given the choice because each has its own benifits. However, it is a good idea to not run out of energy while in combat, close or at a distance, making Adrenaline a very wise choice for a conservative, or even cautious player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He was weak and breakable because of a 525 maximum airspeed at Hive1, not because he lacked the energy to maintain it (he in fact, had plenty of energy post-takeoff).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -Both limit the lerks capabilities, to say that one does not is silly. You argue that the lerk has plenty of energy after take off, but then of course it does when its at full energy. What about after sporing 2-3 times, and then needing to fly away. What about directly after or during close combat. It is at these times when the full detriment of a flight cost, and no adrenaline for rapid replenishing, take effect, not when the in-experienced lerker repeatedly hits jump while flying in the hive. Consider other senerios than the best, because that senerio is rarely played out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i remeber in 1.0 lerks took damge if they accerated too fast in to walls..maybe that needs to be reintroduced <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -phunktion, I'm almost certain that there was not damage for running into a wall as a lerk at top speed, because both jp's and lerk's air speed was unrestricted, and to fly a lerk at top speed nearly required you to collide with a wall in most situations, because there was not ability to turn corners like there is now. I could be wrong, but I think maybe you remember that from a server with a server side modification which allowed for that damage.
And finally: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still haven't heard one good reason for keeping flap-spammage, regardless of vertical cap speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right now you're a fool if you don't exploit the infinite flight energy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its still sad to have the "OGM CANT FLY STRAIGHT AT A GUY AND PWN HIM!" crowd demand Lerk boosts to the point where its a mindless task.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why don't we boost the Onos to be invulnerable from any direction but his **** now too, because he seems like a total waste of 75 res. After all who wants to be hanging back and carefully stomping all game, thats no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saltzbad, I will not begin to moderate you, it is most definetly not my job or place in this forum. And it is infact your right to say what opinions you will. However, belligerence and rudeness has never made for a good debating platform. I personally do not wish to spend time arguing semantics with you or anyone else for they are circular arguments that restrict and hinder progress, posing little benifit to the resolution of any conflict. I have tried my best to carefully word my posts and responses so as to assume a neutral and unbiased perspective in this discussion. I expect (wishfully) that all other particapents will follow suit, and atleast make an effort to be friendly or constructive with their posts. I am asking, not telling, not threatening, you to please think over your arguments, and present them in a more considerate tone. Other wise, I will not consider what you have to say as valid, because as it stands, you are the most noticable shouter of their opinions, even more so than the "OGM CANT FLY STRAIGHT..." person(s).
Again, I suggest a compromise to this situation by substituting spikes in place of spores, and combining spores with umbra as a second hive weapon, forming spumbra (Odd name, yes, but I did not name it). Spikes allows the lerk to maintain its role as a distance attacker while balancing its 0 cost flight ability by not allowing it to attack whole groups of marines from a distance 5 resource points into the game. By the time the second hive is up, if the marines and aliens have both progressed fairly, the lerk will need both umbra and spores to counter rushes and weapon/armor upgrades by the marines. I see this as the best alternative to "nerfing" the class again only to bring back the arguments for this recent change. Taking a step back would only result in revisiting old problems, we should be trying to address both old and current problems now.
<b>Edit : The quotetags work in some weird god-forsaken way here. I might fix it later.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-[ReD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ReD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GreyRaven,Apr 26 2004, 05:05 PM]<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -I'm sorry, but I've been playing since 1.0 and I really dont see how you can say this. While the lerk controls are simple enough to learn and, starting with 2.0+, easier to master, its role/effectivness/worth radically shifted in the switch from 1.0 to 2.0 due to previously stated reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the different 3.0 lerks here exclusively. But yes, there again it shifted from an unituitive and overpowered system (infinite accel lerking) to a more intuitive system with clearer rules (forward-only gliding).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not exactly sure what servers you play on or whom you play with, but I can see how against inexperienced marines, the old system allowed you to take on multiple marines at hive 1, without adrenaline or celerity. However, in my experience, it is possible to engage multiple marines at hive 1, but exceptionally risky when just using melee combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played in pick-up games and one select public exclusively. Its not terribly hard to tell when the marines suck amazingly, and when you're just using obstructions correctly - at least when you have a 10-30 minute game to figure it out.
Of course its risky to engage more than one person in melee combat, but it is after all a unit available <i>5 res into the game</i>. But most of all, unlike the Skulk, you have the choice when to take that risk and hence plenty of opportunity to stack the deck in your favor beforehand. For example seeing a few marines in Oxygen Control on ns_ayumi, pulling back and dropping down on them once they enter the slaughterhouse that is Hayao 7 (admittedly competitive marines wouldn't do that, but any corridor with turns makes a great spot).
Alongside you can spore them and relay information to your team until you decide to engage. And remember - you have the ability to utterly dominate any lone marine thanks to vertical dodging.
And more on that, vertical dodging was in no way just a delay - assuming you could keep your spatial orientation, it wasn't hard to do 2-3 hops towards the exit before flying away. It does not need to be at a straight upwards angle - the speed at which you will be propelled forwards is capped of course, but the speed at which you go up is not. So you keep dodging and making for the exit, if you got yourself in such a bad spot.
And as you already said, the reason Hive 1 melee was extremely risky at times was that if one person got time to shoot you in the approach, or at any other time orientated themselves and tracked you, you were dead meat (aside from vertical dodging, again). Unlimited flapergy doesn't change that, the topspeed remains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally, a lerk is not invulnerable by any means, and to think so is infact to be foolish. And while I see the usefullness of the "pancaking" ability, like bunny hopping, I personally choose not to use it. Call me a fool if you will, however I would like to think (to make a poor analogy) that a man does not steal from an open safe just because he can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a balance discussion, we're assuming competitive play - in the same form that you like to assume we're always fighting competitive marines (and that better yet, each one of these has great aim). So to continue your analogy, you could call an open safe "safe" with just a friend of yours in the house - but to say it will protect you from being robbed is silly.
And in case that was somehow to vague, to say that the Lerk is balanced because you never turn up or down and flap is humbug.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -True, just as adrenaline has never been, and will never be mandatory for gorges, but it is a good idea. Just as celerity, scent of fear, carapace, regeneration, redemption, and focus are not mandatory by any means. You are given the choice because each has its own benifits. However, it is a good idea to not run out of energy while in combat, close or at a distance, making Adrenaline a very wise choice for a conservative, or even cautious player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Both limit the lerks capabilities, to say that one does not is silly. You argue that the lerk has plenty of energy after take off, but then of course it does when its at full energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, but then so does any ability energy drain limit a lifeforms capabilities. Do we now give the Gorge unlimited Spite and Spray energy, or do we look at the actual problem?
And for clarification, I meant energy is always enough once you achieve takeoff. Its if you fail a good takeoff with low energy that you'll essentially stall out (or hit a solid object/be blocked).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, I suggest a compromise to this situation by substituting spikes in place of spores, and combining spores with umbra as a second hive weapon, forming spumbra (Odd name, yes, but I did not name it). Spikes allows the lerk to maintain its role as a distance attacker while balancing its 0 cost flight ability by not allowing it to attack whole groups of marines from a distance 5 resource points into the game. By the time the second hive is up, if the marines and aliens have both progressed fairly, the lerk will need both umbra and spores to counter rushes and weapon/armor upgrades by the marines. I see this as the best alternative to "nerfing" the class again only to bring back the arguments for this recent change. Taking a step back would only result in revisiting old problems, we should be trying to address both old and current problems now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you assuming a vertical cap is introduce then? That change should most likely be done on its own - odds are it will still be a powerful manuever anyway, as it creates the biggest profile displacement.
Most of all, why not use the previous concept where flapping costs energy and tweak the Lerk to work with that highly interesting system, instead of trying to find cheap ways to make this 'unlimited-flap' lame duck fly (pun somehow intended, i guess) ? Is hitting jump without interruption really such great gameplay? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -I'm sorry, but I've been playing since 1.0 and I really dont see how you can say this. While the lerk controls are simple enough to learn and, starting with 2.0+, easier to master, its role/effectivness/worth radically shifted in the switch from 1.0 to 2.0 due to previously stated reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the different 3.0 lerks here exclusively. But yes, there again it shifted from an unituitive and overpowered system (infinite accel lerking) to a more intuitive system with clearer rules (forward-only gliding).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not exactly sure what servers you play on or whom you play with, but I can see how against inexperienced marines, the old system allowed you to take on multiple marines at hive 1, without adrenaline or celerity. However, in my experience, it is possible to engage multiple marines at hive 1, but exceptionally risky when just using melee combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played in pick-up games and one select public exclusively. Its not terribly hard to tell when the marines suck amazingly, and when you're just using obstructions correctly - at least when you have a 10-30 minute game to figure it out.
Of course its risky to engage more than one person in melee combat, but it is after all a unit available <i>5 res into the game</i>. But most of all, unlike the Skulk, you have the choice when to take that risk and hence plenty of opportunity to stack the deck in your favor beforehand. For example seeing a few marines in Oxygen Control on ns_ayumi, pulling back and dropping down on them once they enter the slaughterhouse that is Hayao 7 (admittedly competitive marines wouldn't do that, but any corridor with turns makes a great spot).
Alongside you can spore them and relay information to your team until you decide to engage. And remember - you have the ability to utterly dominate any lone marine thanks to vertical dodging.
And more on that, vertical dodging was in no way just a delay - assuming you could keep your spatial orientation, it wasn't hard to do 2-3 hops towards the exit before flying away. It does not need to be at a straight upwards angle - the speed at which you will be propelled forwards is capped of course, but the speed at which you go up is not. So you keep dodging and making for the exit, if you got yourself in such a bad spot.
And as you already said, the reason Hive 1 melee was extremely risky at times was that if one person got time to shoot you in the approach, or at any other time orientated themselves and tracked you, you were dead meat (aside from vertical dodging, again). Unlimited flapergy doesn't change that, the topspeed remains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally, a lerk is not invulnerable by any means, and to think so is infact to be foolish. And while I see the usefullness of the "pancaking" ability, like bunny hopping, I personally choose not to use it. Call me a fool if you will, however I would like to think (to make a poor analogy) that a man does not steal from an open safe just because he can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a balance discussion, we're assuming competitive play - in the same form that you like to assume we're always fighting competitive marines (and that better yet, each one of these has great aim). So to continue your analogy, you could call an open safe "safe" with just a friend of yours in the house - but to say it will protect you from being robbed is silly.
And in case that was somehow to vague, to say that the Lerk is balanced because you never turn up or down and flap is humbug.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -True, just as adrenaline has never been, and will never be mandatory for gorges, but it is a good idea. Just as celerity, scent of fear, carapace, regeneration, redemption, and focus are not mandatory by any means. You are given the choice because each has its own benifits. However, it is a good idea to not run out of energy while in combat, close or at a distance, making Adrenaline a very wise choice for a conservative, or even cautious player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Both limit the lerks capabilities, to say that one does not is silly. You argue that the lerk has plenty of energy after take off, but then of course it does when its at full energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, but then so does any ability energy drain limit a lifeforms capabilities. Do we now give the Gorge unlimited Spite and Spray energy, or do we look at the actual problem?
And for clarification, I meant energy is always enough once you achieve takeoff. Its if you fail a good takeoff with low energy that you'll essentially stall out (or hit a solid object/be blocked).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, I suggest a compromise to this situation by substituting spikes in place of spores, and combining spores with umbra as a second hive weapon, forming spumbra (Odd name, yes, but I did not name it). Spikes allows the lerk to maintain its role as a distance attacker while balancing its 0 cost flight ability by not allowing it to attack whole groups of marines from a distance 5 resource points into the game. By the time the second hive is up, if the marines and aliens have both progressed fairly, the lerk will need both umbra and spores to counter rushes and weapon/armor upgrades by the marines. I see this as the best alternative to "nerfing" the class again only to bring back the arguments for this recent change. Taking a step back would only result in revisiting old problems, we should be trying to address both old and current problems now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you assuming a vertical cap is introduce then? That change should most likely be done on its own - odds are it will still be a powerful manuever anyway, as it creates the biggest profile displacement.
Most of all, why not use the previous concept where flapping costs energy and tweak the Lerk to work with that highly interesting system, instead of trying to find cheap ways to make this 'unlimited-flap' lame duck fly (pun somehow intended, i guess) ? Is hitting jump without interruption really such great gameplay?
<!--QuoteBegin-CarnEvil+Apr 26 2004, 03:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CarnEvil @ Apr 26 2004, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About the only thing I can agree with in all of theses post is the fact that lerks flight "should" cost something.....I agree with the halved amount from beta 3....it would allow for flight and abilities without the annoying "stalled" lerk which is an easy kill and a waste of res.
The thing I do NOT agree with is some of the people comparing lerk flight with leap and blink skills....these are no where near similar and should never be placed in the same sentence imho. Leap is a hive two ability and blink is a hive one ability...Lerk flight you need zero hives to use it and isnt considered part of the hive abilities that use intense amounts of energy to use.
Lerk flight was fine before....to make it better imo shouldn't mean to take away all energy cost from it..only tweak the energy cost it had before..... and put the energy cost between b3 and b4...basically half the amount that was used in b3....yeah you would get a few pancaking Lerks but they would not have the indefinate ability to do so...which is just annoying and bad sportmanship....
and for some who say "learn to aim and you can kill them" haven't been against someone who knows how to do it....the Lerk simply dis-appears from your screen even at a 20 ping and 100 fps they are simply not there to hit
BTW if your so good at hitting them while they do it...a quick thing to think about...turrts cannot even hit a pancaking Lerk with any great accuracy and they have aimbots working for them <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't had a problem taking down pancaking lerks, in fact, most of the time they are so disoriented they are easy targets.... a more dangerous lerk is one that flys at maxspeed, passing the marines, quickly turning, gassing, and going away, repeat..
the pancaking should stay it, i don't see it as a problem just funny... I must say that when i play lerk I do it in intense situations (where i'm about to die) to avoid bullets, which is what the lerk should be able to do, dodge bullets, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Oea+Apr 26 2004, 06:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Oea @ Apr 26 2004, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I haven't had a problem taking down pancaking lerks, in fact, most of the time they are so disoriented they are easy targets.... a more dangerous lerk is one that flys at maxspeed, passing the marines, quickly turning, gassing, and going away, repeat..
the pancaking should stay it, i don't see it as a problem just funny... I must say that when i play lerk I do it in intense situations (where i'm about to die) to avoid bullets, which is what the lerk should be able to do, dodge bullets, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes but are you shooting a pancaking Lerk from a distance or when it is on top of you...at a 1000-2000 vertical speed they actually DO dis-appear when they are up close and persoonal and have seen pancaking Lerks take on a 5 man team taking them down with relative ease...and yes the Rines were good and controlled most of the map until the Lerks started there pancaking.
you say it best..you only do it to dodge bullets....and your quit right..you do dodge bullets...close to every bullt in the clip of an LMG and HMG...of course with hmg you have a better chance at taking them out with the shear amount of bullets in your clip...
pancaking, yes dis-orienting, but is easily mastered to the point where you are pancaking in front and then behind you enemies..causing them to spin around to shoot...by the time you spin the lerk is behind you again and your clip is empty...most will hit you then...gg.
me i usually walk away from them or walk out of the room causing them to follow me..then I hit..but isnt effective if they start pancaking in the room again..sorry but i may only have decent skills as a rine but i cannot track and entity that is .01 second infront of me...then behind..then to the side....if you can then I say you are better than 99% of the community..and I only say that for the fact that no one has those reflexes...the speed you would have to move your crosshairs is completely insane<that in no way implies anyone is insane fyi <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> >.....and I state I do not believe the Lerk was that great at pancaking.
Even looking for the noise they make slamming into the cieling or the floor wont help you..by the time you look they are alreay gone or attacking you...and some are good enough to hit you while doing it...or just bite while they do it and hope to hit.
I think that ultimate judge should be overall game balance and number of lerks in game..
- it seems that after initial excitement number of lerks in pub games is stabilized at few par game.. In previous beta there was hardly any lerk during whole game.
- overall balance seem to be little bit shifted to aliens due to early lerk advantage (good thing). But good marines vs. good aliens are still mostly marine wins..
I also thing that "pancaking" is actually a bug.. lerk flight speed should be capped by mentioned value, but using script, it is somewhat bugged and accelerates you topward too instead in direction you are pointing to at far bigger speed than normal speed cap. So i think this is just bug (not exploited by all) and it could be probably fixed by giving some minimum delay between flaps to something like 100ms
LOL. the lerk is so rubbish now, before you developed skills to use the lerk, now you can enter as NSPlayer and totally own. the new lerk is so lame, pancaking around everywhere and sporing every place.. fix them, the beta 3 version was alot better, they're just annoying on pubs :<
Yay: Flight is to lerks as walking is to any other alien. It's just how they move, and that should be encouraged. Some people say that if lerk flight is free, why isn't JP flight? A few reasons. Firstly, JP flight and marine weapons draw from different values. Marines don't have to pick and choose, they can do both without one impairing the other. Secondly, JP's are significantly more maneuverable than lerks(excepting pancaking, but I'll touch on that later). A JP can dance around quite effectively, meaning that it is easier to maintain aim on a target for an extended period of time. Thirdly, while almost all marine weapons are ranged, for aliens that is the exception not the rule. A flying marine then becomes a much greater threat for aliens than a flying lerk is for marines. Lerk flight should be free or nearly free, because that is how lerks move. Ideally, a lerk should never need to touch the ground. A running skulk doesn't have to stop to catch its breath, so why should an alien designed to fly? It also puts some use into the other movement upgrades. I generally still will always take adrenaline for my lerk, but at least now it isn't nearly so required. In b3, the only reason not to take adrenaline was if you were playing a flying skulk. Biting isn't as energy intensive, so one could let it slide. However, I at least have always played a lerk as it was supposedly intended, as a support unit. This is energy intensive, and previously adrenaline was an absolute requirement. It was not rare for me to have to sit on the ground and resort to walking to fulfill my intended role. But lerks don't belong on the ground.
Nay: Pancaking. While lerk flight should be free, I am going to assume that this type of spastic lerk motion is not intended. It makes the lerk an extremely difficult target to hit, and in no way endorses the support role that lerks are supposedly meant to fulfill. There are a variety of possible solutions, though which would be ideal I'm not sure. One is to make lerk flight cost something again, but if this is done the support abilities of the lerk need to be made a little cheaper. Adrenaline is just TOO important for lerks when their primary movement requires energy. In an ideal game, all upgrades should be viable for all alien forms. When it comes to movement and lerks, there was rarely a question as to what was required. Another option is to put a minimum delay between flaps. The reason lerks can pancake right now is essentially equivalent to a bhop or pistol "script". Just bind the appropriate key to mwheelup or mwheeldn, and spin away. Instant acceleration. Now, if there was a sufficient if minor delay between how often one could flap, this instant acceleration would be greatly curbed, even with "free" flight. Of course if we do so, there are going to be some players who will gripe about not being able to do instant acceleration. Well, you're a lerk, not a #*%&ing hummingbird.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->LOL. the lerk is so rubbish now, before you developed skills to use the lerk, now you can enter as NSPlayer and totally own. the new lerk is so lame, pancaking around everywhere and sporing every place.. fix them, the beta 3 version was alot better, they're just annoying on pubs :< <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before, there were few lerks and even fewer that were useful before 2 hives when they got umbra and (usually) mcs to make sporing/umbra spam possible without leaving them with zero adrenaline and no chance of getting away. I've yet to see an NSPlayer lerk survive for long enough to do much damage beyond that caused to his own team by investing in a lifeform he won't use effectively (and hence deny the team rts, chambers, whatever). New-ish players get shedloads of abuse for playing fade/onos and dying quickly [rtfm and play combat all you want, it's not much use in classic] - in fact, it's pretty offputting and generally reflects badly on the community as a whole... why should anyone feel restricted to skulk/gorge because the learning curve for anything better is so much steeper? The object of the game is fun, not having superb twitch skills.
If free flight encourages a bit more variety (i.e. not all the l33ts rush for fade and the rest get stuck as the fattehs or the fragbait skulks) then it's a good thing. Yes, there are more lerks, but on the whole if too many aliens save 5 res and lerk early on, marines will win because alien res flow will be pitiful and upgrades and hives will be slow as a result. Unless the marines stand in spore clouds waiting for the lerk to peep out from the vent so they can be spored again. But that's people for you.
If you're going to spend 30 res, you should at least get your money's worth by being able to DO something other than umbra the fat arse of your onos chum.
Scripting is usually fine... however i feel it crosses the line when it allows players to do something they couldn't do physically (like pancake). take that out, but keep the lerk as it is... its a 30 res skulk with wings for christs sake, just shoot it!
I haven't seen pancakeing firsthand, but even if marines can deal with it, it sounds like it's kinda stupid and detracts from the feel of the game.
If I could change the lerk any way I wanted, I would put flight cost back in (maybe at reduced cost from beta3), increase the duration of umbra and spore cloud, and either replace primal scream with spikes (<3 spikes) or increase primal scream's area of effect and duration. I'd probably incrase flight speed too, but then I want skulks and onos to move faster too, which would be bad for the poor marines <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 27 2004, 07:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 27 2004, 07:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - it seems that after initial excitement number of lerks in pub games is stabilized at few par game.. In previous beta there was hardly any lerk during whole game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because pancaking is frowned upon or even banned in many places. Hence why play a class when you can't really help breaking your intended airspeed without crippling yourself.
That aside, flap-delays and all pancake manuevers will remain one of the Lerks top weapons - because in tight corridors, the raw speed gained from it isn't all. Its the direction of the profile displacement that helps here - so if you do cap vertical speed, lerk "evasion" will still be mostly spastic twitching in opposing directions to displace the profile. And seeing as how all the sideways options sucks, up and down will remain the method of choice - for lack of vertical model and hitbox orientation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 25 2004, 08:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 25 2004, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Diablo_fx+Apr 25 2004, 02:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo_fx @ Apr 25 2004, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find this a bit annoying in a little room with a door not opening near the roof... your stuck up there with slow speed and if u press jump while aiming down u go up again :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Duck key should make you fly down <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Duck key making you fly downwards would be very impressive. Equal and opposite to jump.
<!--QuoteBegin-1234567+Apr 28 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1234567 @ Apr 28 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 25 2004, 08:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 25 2004, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Diablo_fx+Apr 25 2004, 02:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo_fx @ Apr 25 2004, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find this a bit annoying in a little room with a door not opening near the roof... your stuck up there with slow speed and if u press jump while aiming down u go up again :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Duck key should make you fly down <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Duck key making you fly downwards would be very impressive. Equal and opposite to jump. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> uhh...if you need to dive, just point down, hold forward and flap.
Comments
they arent hard to track.
skulks can bounce around like crackbabies to avoid getting hit why shouldnt lerk be afforded the same thing? the fact is as the lerk every time you change direction you had to flap again at least twice to get to full speed again. so that made evasive flying too energy expensive. even trying to get near jetpackers was very annoying as you constantly have to adjust your trajectory which required more flapping hence more energy.
pancaking is lame. an effective melee lerk is what i'm arguing for.
- well, if you want to be support lerk (2 hives) or spore **** lerk early, adren is still your best, to allow you spam much more often, you will be hidden anyway because if game is not over at 2 hives marines likely have high-tech guns/upgrades. I was using both celer and adren with new lerk, while only adren with old lerk, when marines reloced to power silo i choosed adren for lerk and simply spored them to death from top, no need for celer in such cases!
argument was raised that old lerk could still fly and attack:
- old lerk flight was nothing for skilled marine, you could kill such lerk in no time, with just tine direction changes it was very easy to track old lerk and bring it down. Only chance for old lerk to survive was staying in vents or crawl on the ground behind larger aliens..
someone said that lerk is too fast:
- THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG, LERK IS NOT FASTER THAN SKULK OR FADE WITH CELERITY !! Do yourself a favor and before stating such nonsense test it with cl_showspeed.
Speed of leaping celer skulk: +-820 .. with bunny leap, its well over 1000!!
Speed of blinking celer fade: +-944 .. with bunny blink again over 1000!!
Speed of celer lerk flight: 749 sustained in 1 direction .. with script burst speed during takeoff can get over 1000 and up to 1500 in rooms with high ceilings .. this is still not faster than bunny leap skulk, and someone said lerk is 10x faster than leap.. nonsense..
Blocking scripts (adding delay between flaps) and capping speed properly to 750 is easy solution to current excess speed with some scripts, but infinite energy is not a problem.
Eh, current Celerity/Regen Lerk has about a 2% chance of ever being it by gunfire if flown right. You shouldn't give a flying monkeys behind wether marines have supar high tech weaponry or not - it won't connect more than once in a blue moon anyway.
@phunktion:
Duh, while near marines you'll want topspeed - although you don't need the current "spam flaps" method for that. And Lerks remain easy to track in any direction but the uncapped vertical at Hive 1, no matter what you do. It does however have barely sufficient speed to simply fly out of the line of fire fast enough with nothing but barebones evasion, and way enough energy to keep the speed up to do so. So again, unless you flew right headon to a marine you were never in danger (and even then, good ol' pancaking worked just as well in B3).
As for Skulks, did I miss something? A Hive 1 Skulk is a huge sitting duck, he can't "hop around like a crack bunny" to avoid fire - the best he can do is build up speed outside marine range and then hop at them at a point that is favorable for him. Simply jumping repeatedly and changing direction makes him no harder to hit - and the most instant acceleration he can get, aka gliding, doesn't either.
I don't know what you see whats so necessary about "evasively" moving the mouse up and down while constantly flapping (as you seem to only be advocating a timelimit on flapping - which would do fairly little, other than make the lerk even more boring. It wouldn't address the infinite vertical speed [directly. The effect remains the same, the amount of acceleration bursts are just less]) - the ability to fly infront of a bunch of marines and just monkey around forever is amazingly unbalanced, nothing else.
And jetpackers you used to just intercept, which was very easy unless it was a tight co map with 7 teammates chasing after the same guy. But co sucks anyway, so who cares. In classic there was again little energy problems in catching a JPer - the biggest challenge there was in not getting killed (again talking about the Hive 1 Lerk), since you ran the danger of going level or below his gun, making you really easy to hit even from a moving platform.
its not just about moving the mouse up an down and spamming flaps..its about being to move upredictably with enough energy left to bite and spore/umbra. your righht about the uncapped vertical speeds... when a lerk is pancaking he is moving at 1000-2000 speed..and then is able to change direction instantly when hitting the ground or ceiling.
i remeber in 1.0 lerks took damge if they accerated too fast in to walls..maybe that needs to be reintroduced
- well, if you want to be support lerk (2 hives) or spore **** lerk early, adren is still your best, to allow you spam much more often, you will be hidden anyway because if game is not over at 2 hives marines likely have high-tech guns/upgrades. I was using both celer and adren with new lerk, while only adren with old lerk, when marines reloced to power silo i choosed adren for lerk and simply spored them to death from top, no need for celer in such cases!
argument was raised that old lerk could still fly and attack:
- old lerk flight was nothing for skilled marine, you could kill such lerk in no time, with just tine direction changes it was very easy to track old lerk and bring it down. Only chance for old lerk to survive was staying in vents or crawl on the ground behind larger aliens..
someone said that lerk is too fast:
- THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG, LERK IS NOT FASTER THAN SKULK OR FADE WITH CELERITY !! Do yourself a favor and before stating such nonsense test it with cl_showspeed.
Speed of leaping celer skulk: +-820 .. with bunny leap, its well over 1000!!
Speed of blinking celer fade: +-944 .. with bunny blink again over 1000!!
Speed of celer lerk flight: 749 sustained in 1 direction .. with script burst speed during takeoff can get over 1000 and up to 1500 in rooms with high ceilings .. this is still not faster than bunny leap skulk, and someone said lerk is 10x faster than leap.. nonsense..
Blocking scripts (adding delay between flaps) and capping speed properly to 750 is easy solution to current excess speed with some scripts, but infinite energy is not a problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A leaping skulk can't stay in leap forever nor can a fade blink forever. A lerk can pancake until the cows come home.
So it allows me to use abilities on the run.
My hero.
So a lerk flying at top speed would be moving only 70 clicks less than a LEAPING skulk? That's kinda nuts, no wonder the buggers were so hard to hit. (I am assuming this is normal flight and not super pancake flight) And that's wonderfully coupled with a near-useless shotty(there's nothing quite like having a close-range weapon that doesn't work at close range <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and completely messed-up hitboxes, I'm surprised I didn't drop beta3 out of pure disgust... no wait... I did... multiple times... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm liking the new lerk in CLASSIC. When you fork out 30 res you want to get some air time for your investment. The lerk flight model of past builds was too weak. All that the lerk needs is spikes back and it will be in great shape...
The issue I see here is that the lerk is more of a nuisance in COMBAT, which is true. That's not necessarily because of the flight model, but moreso because there is NO COST. You wouldn't see combat lerks do what they do in classic because they would get killed and the res would be wasted.
All that really needs to be done is to fix the pancaking issue WITHOUT nerfing the lerk or going back to flight using adrenaline. I need to play lerk more in classic to really get an idea of how I feel, but so far I like it.
Combat is another issue entirely, and I really think that it will get impossible to make the game the same in both combat and classic without making some huge sacrifices to good gameplay in both. A lose-lose proposition in my opinion.
Regards,
Savant
The reason for that is the speedbost from glidejumping necessary to close range for multiple bites, not any real evasive ability aside from putting obstructions or other marines between his attackers line of fire. I trust noone has a real problem hitting Hive 1 Skulks in melee-jumps.
And unlike the Lerk, the Skulk can't fly away - he has to kill every single person once he engages, unless he gets a lucky break.
Seriously, I am going to give this lerk flight thing some more time before making a decision one way or the other.
and they also cost zero res.
The thing I do NOT agree with is some of the people comparing lerk flight with leap and blink skills....these are no where near similar and should never be placed in the same sentence imho. Leap is a hive two ability and blink is a hive one ability...Lerk flight you need zero hives to use it and isnt considered part of the hive abilities that use intense amounts of energy to use.
Lerk flight was fine before....to make it better imo shouldn't mean to take away all energy cost from it..only tweak the energy cost it had before..... and put the energy cost between b3 and b4...basically half the amount that was used in b3....yeah you would get a few pancaking Lerks but they would not have the indefinate ability to do so...which is just annoying and bad sportmanship....
and for some who say "learn to aim and you can kill them" haven't been against someone who knows how to do it....the Lerk simply dis-appears from your screen even at a 20 ping and 100 fps they are simply not there to hit
BTW if your so good at hitting them while they do it...a quick thing to think about...turrts cannot even hit a pancaking Lerk with any great accuracy and they have aimbots working for them <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-I'm sorry, but I've been playing since 1.0 and I really dont see how you can say this. While the lerk controls are simple enough to learn and, starting with 2.0+, easier to master, its role/effectivness/worth radically shifted in the switch from 1.0 to 2.0 due to previously stated reasons. I can see the reasoning in saying that flight is intuitive, and even the reasoning in the slightly exaggerated comparison with the class to a flight simulator. However it is not the skill required to fly that is in question, atleast I'm not questioning it, but infact its playability. As I said before, with the lerk, staying alive has always been top priority. And while you say that from 2.0 to 3.0b3, adrenaline was not needed except for pure support roles, I believe you are over simplifying close combat. From past experience, it is possible to not use all energy, even starting at max and top flight speed, in a melee battle, but how effective is it when playing against skilled opponents, to fly in bite maybe once or twice, and then have to retreat all the way back to the hive, because you nearly died. Regeneration becomes pointless at higher tech levels for marines, you simply take damage too quickly without additional armor or umbra.
-In terms of accessibility, the lerk is just as accessible as any other upgrade, in literal terms, the difference is that while each class has their own specific strengths and weaknesses, the lerk takes a relatively greater amount of skill to play correctly, especially at hive 1, and especially with out adrenaline, until now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The (hive 1) Lerk has become stronger ? No he hasn't, the main reason the Hive 1 Lerk died was his topspeed - he had plenty of energy to takeoff with half a tank, attempt to dodge and make for an exit under fire. The problem was, he didn't have the speed anywhere but vertical to make this effective. Hive 1 Lerks still were a highly effective class. Not just because of Spores, but because of their ability to scout out the map and go into melee attacks at favorable locations (meaning anywhere approach/escape was simplified, you could pretty safely engage a few guys). The Hive 2 Lerk is obviously noticably improved regardless of vertical exploits, as Celerity+buttonmashing = win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Again, Saltzbad, I believe you are over simplifying the skill it takes to lerk correctly. I'm not exactly sure what servers you play on or whom you play with, but I can see how against inexperienced marines, the old system allowed you to take on multiple marines at hive 1, without adrenaline or celerity. However, in my experience, it is possible to engage multiple marines at hive 1, but exceptionally risky when just using melee combat. In most cases, the Marines will upgrade to Level 1 Armor within a few minutes. As was pointed out, it takes a lerk three bites without medpacks to kill a marine with level one armor. Skilled marines do not simply stand still and let you bite them while trying to shoot you. A dodging marine is not so difficult to hit, but it still takes time, and in a group of two or more marines, this is plenty of time to kill a hive 1 lerk, simply because they are so easy to hit. To be honest, I don't see how flying straight up to take advantage of the faster speed is even worth while when you can't escape a room by flying upwards, it simply becomes a delay, either way the bullets will still connect, and if you arent careful, you will die. This kind of risk is even more significant when playing against exceptionally skilled players, such as Romano, who can certainly kill multiple lerks in close combat at hive 1 if they are not very skilled and very careful.
-Also, your forumal for "win" is a bit flawed. As you've already pointed out, the only way to take advantage of a max flight speed is to flight straight upwards. This 1000-2000 air speed does not continue when you level off to leave a room, leaving a large window of vulnerability for a wounded lerk. And considering the old flight cost, button mashing to reach this vertile max speed would simply leave you with barely enough to make it out of the room and around the next corner. This doesnt even take into account marines that chase you, leaving you with an even bigger vulnerability. Albiet, celerity would increase your chances of escape and ability to dodge, however, without energy to attack, you are simply running for your life. I reiterate, it is not skill of the player that is coming into question, atleast by me, it is however the cost effectivness, and actual playability of the lerk for everyone and all styles of play, public games and professional matches alike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Lerk now "has more upgrade options" ? What in the world would make anyone say this? Its the polar opposite - every upgrade except Celerity has been discouraged heavily now. Silence was the only one that never was overly popular, but useful none the less. Right now you're a fool if you don't exploit the infinite flight energy with Celerity for invulnerability right in Marine Spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-I can say very simply, and infact, I have in essence already explained this reasoning several times in this post alone. However, I fail to see how "polar opposite" my argument is when your experiences are as valid as my experiences. I have already discussed how the old system handicapped celerity with flight cost, in addition to bite/umbra/spore cost, the rate at which adrenaline is regained is very slow, making flying limited, and if you cant fly, then why not just get adrenaline and spam spores or umbra? And then you go to say that every upgrade has been discouraged because of this change, with the exception of celerity. I cannot see the reasoning behind this statement, except in that with the new 0 cost flight system it has become easier to use Celerity, and players are not restricted to Adrenaline in order to be an effective lerk. While it would seem that Celerity has now become more usefull than Adrenaline or Silence, the usefulness of the other upgrades has not diminsihed because of this changed, infact they have become more effective. Silence, being the least affected by this change in my eyes, has still risen in terms of usefullness, because adrenaline is not needed for flight, so a lerk, while slow, can now make more stealthy attackes without worrying about being able to escape with energy. Finally, a lerk is not invulnerable by any means, and to think so is infact to be foolish. And while I see the usefullness of the "pancaking" ability, like bunny hopping, I personally choose not to use it. Call me a fool if you will, however I would like to think (to make a poor analogy) that a man does not steal from an open safe just because he can. (on this last note I could also bring a more political and moral analogy into reference. However, I believe that with respectful consideration, the point of my analogy still gets across.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-True, just as adrenaline has never been, and will never be mandatory for gorges, but it is a good idea. Just as celerity, scent of fear, carapace, regeneration, redemption, and focus are not mandatory by any means. You are given the choice because each has its own benifits. However, it is a good idea to not run out of energy while in combat, close or at a distance, making Adrenaline a very wise choice for a conservative, or even cautious player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He was weak and breakable because of a 525 maximum airspeed at Hive1, not because he lacked the energy to maintain it (he in fact, had plenty of energy post-takeoff).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Both limit the lerks capabilities, to say that one does not is silly. You argue that the lerk has plenty of energy after take off, but then of course it does when its at full energy. What about after sporing 2-3 times, and then needing to fly away. What about directly after or during close combat. It is at these times when the full detriment of a flight cost, and no adrenaline for rapid replenishing, take effect, not when the in-experienced lerker repeatedly hits jump while flying in the hive. Consider other senerios than the best, because that senerio is rarely played out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i remeber in 1.0 lerks took damge if they accerated too fast in to walls..maybe that needs to be reintroduced <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-phunktion, I'm almost certain that there was not damage for running into a wall as a lerk at top speed, because both jp's and lerk's air speed was unrestricted, and to fly a lerk at top speed nearly required you to collide with a wall in most situations, because there was not ability to turn corners like there is now. I could be wrong, but I think maybe you remember that from a server with a server side modification which allowed for that damage.
And finally:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still haven't heard one good reason for keeping flap-spammage, regardless of vertical cap speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right now you're a fool if you don't exploit the infinite flight energy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its still sad to have the "OGM CANT FLY STRAIGHT AT A GUY AND PWN HIM!" crowd demand Lerk boosts to the point where its a mindless task.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why don't we boost the Onos to be invulnerable from any direction but his **** now too, because he seems like a total waste of 75 res. After all who wants to be hanging back and carefully stomping all game, thats no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saltzbad, I will not begin to moderate you, it is most definetly not my job or place in this forum. And it is infact your right to say what opinions you will. However, belligerence and rudeness has never made for a good debating platform. I personally do not wish to spend time arguing semantics with you or anyone else for they are circular arguments that restrict and hinder progress, posing little benifit to the resolution of any conflict. I have tried my best to carefully word my posts and responses so as to assume a neutral and unbiased perspective in this discussion. I expect (wishfully) that all other particapents will follow suit, and atleast make an effort to be friendly or constructive with their posts. I am asking, not telling, not threatening, you to please think over your arguments, and present them in a more considerate tone. Other wise, I will not consider what you have to say as valid, because as it stands, you are the most noticable shouter of their opinions, even more so than the "OGM CANT FLY STRAIGHT..." person(s).
Again, I suggest a compromise to this situation by substituting spikes in place of spores, and combining spores with umbra as a second hive weapon, forming spumbra (Odd name, yes, but I did not name it). Spikes allows the lerk to maintain its role as a distance attacker while balancing its 0 cost flight ability by not allowing it to attack whole groups of marines from a distance 5 resource points into the game. By the time the second hive is up, if the marines and aliens have both progressed fairly, the lerk will need both umbra and spores to counter rushes and weapon/armor upgrades by the marines. I see this as the best alternative to "nerfing" the class again only to bring back the arguments for this recent change. Taking a step back would only result in revisiting old problems, we should be trying to address both old and current problems now.
<!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-[ReD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ReD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GreyRaven,Apr 26 2004, 05:05 PM]<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-I'm sorry, but I've been playing since 1.0 and I really dont see how you can say this. While the lerk controls are simple enough to learn and, starting with 2.0+, easier to master, its role/effectivness/worth radically shifted in the switch from 1.0 to 2.0 due to previously stated reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the different 3.0 lerks here exclusively. But yes, there again it shifted from an unituitive and overpowered system (infinite accel lerking) to a more intuitive system with clearer rules (forward-only gliding).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not exactly sure what servers you play on or whom you play with, but I can see how against inexperienced marines, the old system allowed you to take on multiple marines at hive 1, without adrenaline or celerity. However, in my experience, it is possible to engage multiple marines at hive 1, but exceptionally risky when just using melee combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played in pick-up games and one select public exclusively. Its not terribly hard to tell when the marines suck amazingly, and when you're just using obstructions correctly - at least when you have a 10-30 minute game to figure it out.
Of course its risky to engage more than one person in melee combat, but it is after all a unit available <i>5 res into the game</i>. But most of all, unlike the Skulk, you have the choice when to take that risk and hence plenty of opportunity to stack the deck in your favor beforehand. For example seeing a few marines in Oxygen Control on ns_ayumi, pulling back and dropping down on them once they enter the slaughterhouse that is Hayao 7 (admittedly competitive marines wouldn't do that, but any corridor with turns makes a great spot).
Alongside you can spore them and relay information to your team until you decide to engage. And remember - you have the ability to utterly dominate any lone marine thanks to vertical dodging.
And more on that, vertical dodging was in no way just a delay - assuming you could keep your spatial orientation, it wasn't hard to do 2-3 hops towards the exit before flying away. It does not need to be at a straight upwards angle - the speed at which you will be propelled forwards is capped of course, but the speed at which you go up is not. So you keep dodging and making for the exit, if you got yourself in such a bad spot.
And as you already said, the reason Hive 1 melee was extremely risky at times was that if one person got time to shoot you in the approach, or at any other time orientated themselves and tracked you, you were dead meat (aside from vertical dodging, again). Unlimited flapergy doesn't change that, the topspeed remains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally, a lerk is not invulnerable by any means, and to think so is infact to be foolish. And while I see the usefullness of the "pancaking" ability, like bunny hopping, I personally choose not to use it. Call me a fool if you will, however I would like to think (to make a poor analogy) that a man does not steal from an open safe just because he can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a balance discussion, we're assuming competitive play - in the same form that you like to assume we're always fighting competitive marines (and that better yet, each one of these has great aim). So to continue your analogy, you could call an open safe "safe" with just a friend of yours in the house - but to say it will protect you from being robbed is silly.
And in case that was somehow to vague, to say that the Lerk is balanced because you never turn up or down and flap is humbug.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-True, just as adrenaline has never been, and will never be mandatory for gorges, but it is a good idea. Just as celerity, scent of fear, carapace, regeneration, redemption, and focus are not mandatory by any means. You are given the choice because each has its own benifits. However, it is a good idea to not run out of energy while in combat, close or at a distance, making Adrenaline a very wise choice for a conservative, or even cautious player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Both limit the lerks capabilities, to say that one does not is silly. You argue that the lerk has plenty of energy after take off, but then of course it does when its at full energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, but then so does any ability energy drain limit a lifeforms capabilities. Do we now give the Gorge unlimited Spite and Spray energy, or do we look at the actual problem?
And for clarification, I meant energy is always enough once you achieve takeoff. Its if you fail a good takeoff with low energy that you'll essentially stall out (or hit a solid object/be blocked).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, I suggest a compromise to this situation by substituting spikes in place of spores, and combining spores with umbra as a second hive weapon, forming spumbra (Odd name, yes, but I did not name it). Spikes allows the lerk to maintain its role as a distance attacker while balancing its 0 cost flight ability by not allowing it to attack whole groups of marines from a distance 5 resource points into the game. By the time the second hive is up, if the marines and aliens have both progressed fairly, the lerk will need both umbra and spores to counter rushes and weapon/armor upgrades by the marines. I see this as the best alternative to "nerfing" the class again only to bring back the arguments for this recent change. Taking a step back would only result in revisiting old problems, we should be trying to address both old and current problems now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you assuming a vertical cap is introduce then? That change should most likely be done on its own - odds are it will still be a powerful manuever anyway, as it creates the biggest profile displacement.
Most of all, why not use the previous concept where flapping costs energy and tweak the Lerk to work with that highly interesting system, instead of trying to find cheap ways to make this 'unlimited-flap' lame duck fly (pun somehow intended, i guess) ? Is hitting jump without interruption really such great gameplay? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-I'm sorry, but I've been playing since 1.0 and I really dont see how you can say this. While the lerk controls are simple enough to learn and, starting with 2.0+, easier to master, its role/effectivness/worth radically shifted in the switch from 1.0 to 2.0 due to previously stated reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the different 3.0 lerks here exclusively. But yes, there again it shifted from an unituitive and overpowered system (infinite accel lerking) to a more intuitive system with clearer rules (forward-only gliding).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not exactly sure what servers you play on or whom you play with, but I can see how against inexperienced marines, the old system allowed you to take on multiple marines at hive 1, without adrenaline or celerity. However, in my experience, it is possible to engage multiple marines at hive 1, but exceptionally risky when just using melee combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played in pick-up games and one select public exclusively. Its not terribly hard to tell when the marines suck amazingly, and when you're just using obstructions correctly - at least when you have a 10-30 minute game to figure it out.
Of course its risky to engage more than one person in melee combat, but it is after all a unit available <i>5 res into the game</i>. But most of all, unlike the Skulk, you have the choice when to take that risk and hence plenty of opportunity to stack the deck in your favor beforehand. For example seeing a few marines in Oxygen Control on ns_ayumi, pulling back and dropping down on them once they enter the slaughterhouse that is Hayao 7 (admittedly competitive marines wouldn't do that, but any corridor with turns makes a great spot).
Alongside you can spore them and relay information to your team until you decide to engage. And remember - you have the ability to utterly dominate any lone marine thanks to vertical dodging.
And more on that, vertical dodging was in no way just a delay - assuming you could keep your spatial orientation, it wasn't hard to do 2-3 hops towards the exit before flying away. It does not need to be at a straight upwards angle - the speed at which you will be propelled forwards is capped of course, but the speed at which you go up is not. So you keep dodging and making for the exit, if you got yourself in such a bad spot.
And as you already said, the reason Hive 1 melee was extremely risky at times was that if one person got time to shoot you in the approach, or at any other time orientated themselves and tracked you, you were dead meat (aside from vertical dodging, again). Unlimited flapergy doesn't change that, the topspeed remains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally, a lerk is not invulnerable by any means, and to think so is infact to be foolish. And while I see the usefullness of the "pancaking" ability, like bunny hopping, I personally choose not to use it. Call me a fool if you will, however I would like to think (to make a poor analogy) that a man does not steal from an open safe just because he can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a balance discussion, we're assuming competitive play - in the same form that you like to assume we're always fighting competitive marines (and that better yet, each one of these has great aim). So to continue your analogy, you could call an open safe "safe" with just a friend of yours in the house - but to say it will protect you from being robbed is silly.
And in case that was somehow to vague, to say that the Lerk is balanced because you never turn up or down and flap is humbug.
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Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-True, just as adrenaline has never been, and will never be mandatory for gorges, but it is a good idea. Just as celerity, scent of fear, carapace, regeneration, redemption, and focus are not mandatory by any means. You are given the choice because each has its own benifits. However, it is a good idea to not run out of energy while in combat, close or at a distance, making Adrenaline a very wise choice for a conservative, or even cautious player.
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-Both limit the lerks capabilities, to say that one does not is silly. You argue that the lerk has plenty of energy after take off, but then of course it does when its at full energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, but then so does any ability energy drain limit a lifeforms capabilities. Do we now give the Gorge unlimited Spite and Spray energy, or do we look at the actual problem?
And for clarification, I meant energy is always enough once you achieve takeoff. Its if you fail a good takeoff with low energy that you'll essentially stall out (or hit a solid object/be blocked).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, I suggest a compromise to this situation by substituting spikes in place of spores, and combining spores with umbra as a second hive weapon, forming spumbra (Odd name, yes, but I did not name it). Spikes allows the lerk to maintain its role as a distance attacker while balancing its 0 cost flight ability by not allowing it to attack whole groups of marines from a distance 5 resource points into the game. By the time the second hive is up, if the marines and aliens have both progressed fairly, the lerk will need both umbra and spores to counter rushes and weapon/armor upgrades by the marines. I see this as the best alternative to "nerfing" the class again only to bring back the arguments for this recent change. Taking a step back would only result in revisiting old problems, we should be trying to address both old and current problems now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you assuming a vertical cap is introduce then? That change should most likely be done on its own - odds are it will still be a powerful manuever anyway, as it creates the biggest profile displacement.
Most of all, why not use the previous concept where flapping costs energy and tweak the Lerk to work with that highly interesting system, instead of trying to find cheap ways to make this 'unlimited-flap' lame duck fly (pun somehow intended, i guess) ? Is hitting jump without interruption really such great gameplay?
The thing I do NOT agree with is some of the people comparing lerk flight with leap and blink skills....these are no where near similar and should never be placed in the same sentence imho. Leap is a hive two ability and blink is a hive one ability...Lerk flight you need zero hives to use it and isnt considered part of the hive abilities that use intense amounts of energy to use.
Lerk flight was fine before....to make it better imo shouldn't mean to take away all energy cost from it..only tweak the energy cost it had before..... and put the energy cost between b3 and b4...basically half the amount that was used in b3....yeah you would get a few pancaking Lerks but they would not have the indefinate ability to do so...which is just annoying and bad sportmanship....
and for some who say "learn to aim and you can kill them" haven't been against someone who knows how to do it....the Lerk simply dis-appears from your screen even at a 20 ping and 100 fps they are simply not there to hit
BTW if your so good at hitting them while they do it...a quick thing to think about...turrts cannot even hit a pancaking Lerk with any great accuracy and they have aimbots working for them <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't had a problem taking down pancaking lerks, in fact, most of the time they are so disoriented they are easy targets.... a more dangerous lerk is one that flys at maxspeed, passing the marines, quickly turning, gassing, and going away, repeat..
the pancaking should stay it, i don't see it as a problem just funny... I must say that when i play lerk I do it in intense situations (where i'm about to die) to avoid bullets, which is what the lerk should be able to do, dodge bullets, right?
the pancaking should stay it, i don't see it as a problem just funny... I must say that when i play lerk I do it in intense situations (where i'm about to die) to avoid bullets, which is what the lerk should be able to do, dodge bullets, right?
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yes but are you shooting a pancaking Lerk from a distance or when it is on top of you...at a 1000-2000 vertical speed they actually DO dis-appear when they are up close and persoonal and have seen pancaking Lerks take on a 5 man team taking them down with relative ease...and yes the Rines were good and controlled most of the map until the Lerks started there pancaking.
you say it best..you only do it to dodge bullets....and your quit right..you do dodge bullets...close to every bullt in the clip of an LMG and HMG...of course with hmg you have a better chance at taking them out with the shear amount of bullets in your clip...
pancaking, yes dis-orienting, but is easily mastered to the point where you are pancaking in front and then behind you enemies..causing them to spin around to shoot...by the time you spin the lerk is behind you again and your clip is empty...most will hit you then...gg.
me i usually walk away from them or walk out of the room causing them to follow me..then I hit..but isnt effective if they start pancaking in the room again..sorry but i may only have decent skills as a rine but i cannot track and entity that is .01 second infront of me...then behind..then to the side....if you can then I say you are better than 99% of the community..and I only say that for the fact that no one has those reflexes...the speed you would have to move your crosshairs is completely insane<that in no way implies anyone is insane fyi <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> >.....and I state I do not believe the Lerk was that great at pancaking.
Even looking for the noise they make slamming into the cieling or the floor wont help you..by the time you look they are alreay gone or attacking you...and some are good enough to hit you while doing it...or just bite while they do it and hope to hit.
- it seems that after initial excitement number of lerks in pub games is stabilized at few par game.. In previous beta there was hardly any lerk during whole game.
- overall balance seem to be little bit shifted to aliens due to early lerk advantage (good thing). But good marines vs. good aliens are still mostly marine wins..
I also thing that "pancaking" is actually a bug.. lerk flight speed should be capped by mentioned value, but using script, it is somewhat bugged and accelerates you topward too instead in direction you are pointing to at far bigger speed than normal speed cap.
So i think this is just bug (not exploited by all) and it could be probably fixed by giving some minimum delay between flaps to something like 100ms
Yay: Flight is to lerks as walking is to any other alien. It's just how they move, and that should be encouraged. Some people say that if lerk flight is free, why isn't JP flight? A few reasons. Firstly, JP flight and marine weapons draw from different values. Marines don't have to pick and choose, they can do both without one impairing the other. Secondly, JP's are significantly more maneuverable than lerks(excepting pancaking, but I'll touch on that later). A JP can dance around quite effectively, meaning that it is easier to maintain aim on a target for an extended period of time. Thirdly, while almost all marine weapons are ranged, for aliens that is the exception not the rule. A flying marine then becomes a much greater threat for aliens than a flying lerk is for marines. Lerk flight should be free or nearly free, because that is how lerks move. Ideally, a lerk should never need to touch the ground. A running skulk doesn't have to stop to catch its breath, so why should an alien designed to fly? It also puts some use into the other movement upgrades. I generally still will always take adrenaline for my lerk, but at least now it isn't nearly so required. In b3, the only reason not to take adrenaline was if you were playing a flying skulk. Biting isn't as energy intensive, so one could let it slide. However, I at least have always played a lerk as it was supposedly intended, as a support unit. This is energy intensive, and previously adrenaline was an absolute requirement. It was not rare for me to have to sit on the ground and resort to walking to fulfill my intended role. But lerks don't belong on the ground.
Nay: Pancaking. While lerk flight should be free, I am going to assume that this type of spastic lerk motion is not intended. It makes the lerk an extremely difficult target to hit, and in no way endorses the support role that lerks are supposedly meant to fulfill. There are a variety of possible solutions, though which would be ideal I'm not sure. One is to make lerk flight cost something again, but if this is done the support abilities of the lerk need to be made a little cheaper. Adrenaline is just TOO important for lerks when their primary movement requires energy. In an ideal game, all upgrades should be viable for all alien forms. When it comes to movement and lerks, there was rarely a question as to what was required. Another option is to put a minimum delay between flaps. The reason lerks can pancake right now is essentially equivalent to a bhop or pistol "script". Just bind the appropriate key to mwheelup or mwheeldn, and spin away. Instant acceleration. Now, if there was a sufficient if minor delay between how often one could flap, this instant acceleration would be greatly curbed, even with "free" flight. Of course if we do so, there are going to be some players who will gripe about not being able to do instant acceleration. Well, you're a lerk, not a #*%&ing hummingbird.
Before, there were few lerks and even fewer that were useful before 2 hives when they got umbra and (usually) mcs to make sporing/umbra spam possible without leaving them with zero adrenaline and no chance of getting away. I've yet to see an NSPlayer lerk survive for long enough to do much damage beyond that caused to his own team by investing in a lifeform he won't use effectively (and hence deny the team rts, chambers, whatever). New-ish players get shedloads of abuse for playing fade/onos and dying quickly [rtfm and play combat all you want, it's not much use in classic] - in fact, it's pretty offputting and generally reflects badly on the community as a whole... why should anyone feel restricted to skulk/gorge because the learning curve for anything better is so much steeper? The object of the game is fun, not having superb twitch skills.
If free flight encourages a bit more variety (i.e. not all the l33ts rush for fade and the rest get stuck as the fattehs or the fragbait skulks) then it's a good thing. Yes, there are more lerks, but on the whole if too many aliens save 5 res and lerk early on, marines will win because alien res flow will be pitiful and upgrades and hives will be slow as a result. Unless the marines stand in spore clouds waiting for the lerk to peep out from the vent so they can be spored again. But that's people for you.
If you're going to spend 30 res, you should at least get your money's worth by being able to DO something other than umbra the fat arse of your onos chum.
But pancaking is bad, mmmkay?
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but what i'd really like to see is bite/spike/spumbra/primal with flight cost.
If I could change the lerk any way I wanted, I would put flight cost back in (maybe at reduced cost from beta3), increase the duration of umbra and spore cloud, and either replace primal scream with spikes (<3 spikes) or increase primal scream's area of effect and duration. I'd probably incrase flight speed too, but then I want skulks and onos to move faster too, which would be bad for the poor marines <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Because pancaking is frowned upon or even banned in many places. Hence why play a class when you can't really help breaking your intended airspeed without crippling yourself.
That aside, flap-delays and all pancake manuevers will remain one of the Lerks top weapons - because in tight corridors, the raw speed gained from it isn't all. Its the direction of the profile displacement that helps here - so if you do cap vertical speed, lerk "evasion" will still be mostly spastic twitching in opposing directions to displace the profile. And seeing as how all the sideways options sucks, up and down will remain the method of choice - for lack of vertical model and hitbox orientation.
Duck key should make you fly down <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duck key making you fly downwards would be very impressive.
Equal and opposite to jump.
Duck key should make you fly down <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duck key making you fly downwards would be very impressive.
Equal and opposite to jump. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
uhh...if you need to dive, just point down, hold forward and flap.
So i guess solution is easy..