Worthless Items
blackholedreams
Join Date: 2004-02-04 Member: 26023Members
Join Date: 2004-02-04 Member: 26023Members
<div class="IPBDescription">get rid of them or fix them</div> Combat:
Handgrenades-these suck, pure and simple. You will almost never get a kill with them because they take an hour to pull out and throw, and do very little damage. Not to mention, you only get one per life. I could understand if you could get 2 or 3 per life, or possibly get some more at the armory, but one worthless weapon? Come on. Remove them or buff them.
Catalyst-The problem with catalyst is you have to get a kill to get it...however, that generally means you will be low on ammo or need to reload, and since it doesn't speed reloading, the effect wears out before you get to use it. I think catalyst needs to be reworked. Perhaps something like, if a teammate or enemy dies around you, then you should get a catalyst. Or(and?) if you do a certain amount of damage to an enemy (say...33%) you get a cat pack. Remove it or make it useful.
Welders-While not worthless, having to spend 3 points to be in a heavy train is a little excessive. Perhaps make welders come with HA, or make HA only one point but require a welder and/or armor 3. Being able to get one more weapons upgrade as a heavy would be nice.
Classic/Combat:
Hive 3 and it's abilities-In classic, Hive 3 is ok, it allows you another upgrade chamber and some better armor, and some fairly useless abilities. Web and Xeno (although Xeno NEEDS BLAST DAMAGE!!!) are worthy abilites, but charge, acid rocket, and primal scream are not. Primal's duration is way too short. It really should be doubled. It's a game ending ability, it should last longer than the time it takes to draw and fire it. Charge sucks, period. It's the final ability of the most powerful alien, yet all it does is make the onos run a little faster than it does with celerity and does nominal damage to anything it can manage to hit. PLEASE REWORK CHARGE! For crying outloud, it should instagib LAs or do at least 4x the damage it does now. Also, hitting Marines should toss them around and disorient them, because how is an LA going to block several thousand pounds of charging Onos? It's stupid. Acid Rocket. What a disappointment. For a 50 res creature's final attack, you get a weapon that's as powerful as a Gorge's base attack. Does that make sense? Read that again: Acid rocket (final ability for a 50 res creature) is EQUAL to Spit (the basic attack for a 10 res creature). Acid Rocket should do at least double damage or do something like 40 damage and do small damage every second for a few seconds afterwards (like falling in the acid in co_deimos).
In combat, almost all hive 3 abilities were a joke before (although web and xeno were decent enough, and primal could possibly help every now and then), but now they're not even viable. Xeno is ok for hitting clustered Marines, and Web is godly, but acid rocket and charge are no where near justifying 2 points for them. Primal should cost 1, since it's duration is so short but it helps in base rushes, but charge and acid rocket should be free.
Anyway, that's my rant. I was hoping to see some of these problems fixed in beta 4, but my hopes were misplaced.
And whatever happened to the promised Bite, Spikes, Spumbra, and Primal Scream Lerk?
Handgrenades-these suck, pure and simple. You will almost never get a kill with them because they take an hour to pull out and throw, and do very little damage. Not to mention, you only get one per life. I could understand if you could get 2 or 3 per life, or possibly get some more at the armory, but one worthless weapon? Come on. Remove them or buff them.
Catalyst-The problem with catalyst is you have to get a kill to get it...however, that generally means you will be low on ammo or need to reload, and since it doesn't speed reloading, the effect wears out before you get to use it. I think catalyst needs to be reworked. Perhaps something like, if a teammate or enemy dies around you, then you should get a catalyst. Or(and?) if you do a certain amount of damage to an enemy (say...33%) you get a cat pack. Remove it or make it useful.
Welders-While not worthless, having to spend 3 points to be in a heavy train is a little excessive. Perhaps make welders come with HA, or make HA only one point but require a welder and/or armor 3. Being able to get one more weapons upgrade as a heavy would be nice.
Classic/Combat:
Hive 3 and it's abilities-In classic, Hive 3 is ok, it allows you another upgrade chamber and some better armor, and some fairly useless abilities. Web and Xeno (although Xeno NEEDS BLAST DAMAGE!!!) are worthy abilites, but charge, acid rocket, and primal scream are not. Primal's duration is way too short. It really should be doubled. It's a game ending ability, it should last longer than the time it takes to draw and fire it. Charge sucks, period. It's the final ability of the most powerful alien, yet all it does is make the onos run a little faster than it does with celerity and does nominal damage to anything it can manage to hit. PLEASE REWORK CHARGE! For crying outloud, it should instagib LAs or do at least 4x the damage it does now. Also, hitting Marines should toss them around and disorient them, because how is an LA going to block several thousand pounds of charging Onos? It's stupid. Acid Rocket. What a disappointment. For a 50 res creature's final attack, you get a weapon that's as powerful as a Gorge's base attack. Does that make sense? Read that again: Acid rocket (final ability for a 50 res creature) is EQUAL to Spit (the basic attack for a 10 res creature). Acid Rocket should do at least double damage or do something like 40 damage and do small damage every second for a few seconds afterwards (like falling in the acid in co_deimos).
In combat, almost all hive 3 abilities were a joke before (although web and xeno were decent enough, and primal could possibly help every now and then), but now they're not even viable. Xeno is ok for hitting clustered Marines, and Web is godly, but acid rocket and charge are no where near justifying 2 points for them. Primal should cost 1, since it's duration is so short but it helps in base rushes, but charge and acid rocket should be free.
Anyway, that's my rant. I was hoping to see some of these problems fixed in beta 4, but my hopes were misplaced.
And whatever happened to the promised Bite, Spikes, Spumbra, and Primal Scream Lerk?
Comments
Who, may I ask, promised that ?
Anybody ever thought this idea through? Which hive should give you spumbra? Hive 1 or 2? It would have to be seriously nerfed for hive1 to work, then it's just not gonna give you the boost you need in the extreme situations that umbra is supposed to be used for, of course, it might actually be useful when the noob lerk is spamming the heavies with that crap because he think it hurts them, but that's rarer now with bite back in. Unless you want it as hive2, that'll just kill the lerk in early game, but if it's what you want, I completely agree, I hate the lerk and I WANT it nerfed, so keep hoping, more power to ya.
no its not... maybe if it blocked as many bullets as it did in 1.04... but not right now.
no its not... maybe if it blocked as many bullets as it did in 1.04... but not right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is.
Who, may I ask, promised that ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra came into the #naturalselection IRC room and said that the Lerk I mentioned would be in the upcoming beta 4 a day or 2 before its release. So, there you go, Phoenix.
Also, IMO, spikes are far more useful than the current spore anyway. With Spore beefed a bit (maybe 10 damage/sec instead of just 7) and mixed with Umbra, you'd have a worthy Hive 2 ability. Give primal a longer duration, and you'd have a kickass Lerk.
...Anyone going to comment on the handgrenades/catalysts?
anyway, the welder has great uses. It is not used only for a HA train. Vents, structures, webs, all need a welder.
the nade, although it wasn't something i greatly wanted, i find it fun. And, yes, you can get kills with a grenade, you just need to learn them. If you think u will need one, hold the fire button to pull the pin, then wait to throw.
catalysts, while not so usefull in classic, although it does help on a strong rush. It is great to have in CO.
To be accurate:
«15:58:41» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} ? Increased Combat spawn wait time slightly to shorten game times (makes it more of a disadvantage when you die). Minimum spawn time increased from 5 to 7 seconds.
«16:00:48» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} I'm also thinking about putting lerk spikes back in and combining spores and umbra but that's a scary change
«17:59:46» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} Spumbra baybee, spumbra
«18:00:20» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} ? Removed wave spawn to shorten game length (only one person spawning at a time)
«18:00:34» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} It will just be "spores", and they'll act as both spores and umbra
«18:00:42» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} bite, spikes, spores, primal
«18:02:51» {@Flayra|beta4-friday} BigBear: Not sure, it seems reasonable to me to get spikes back
The trouble is that it takes a couple of seconds to "recover" from throwing a nade, and that you won't do any immediate damage unless you manage to hit that incoming dead-on (due to explosion delay). Nine out of ten times you'd be much better off with an LMG in hand, ready to fire when the alien comes around the corner.
I think the grenade could do with a little less priming time; you'd think it was a shot-put at the moment.
As for cats: I think the actual mechanics for them are fine, but a couple of changes might be nice. A good idea from the I&S Forums was to move cat. research from the arms lab to the armoury - the arms lab is constantly upgrading, and cats simply aren't as essential as a weapons or armour upgrade. As it is, they're usually researched only as a fun thing/to "complete the tech set", which is a shame.
The only thing this does is give you an extra weapon slot for use with the grand old spikes (obviously an already balanced weapon) and the ability to fire both spore and umbra at once instead of having to switch back and forth between them. This doesn't really do anything to hurt game balance.
Maybe you should get your grenade resupplied after a couple minutes of gametime or something.
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Nades take literaly no time to recover when throwing. Throw nade, press 1 (remember to turn on pushswitch) and resume shooting the aliens.
Yes nades aren't that useful in combat but neither is gettting ha after getting jp, charge or acid rockets. A lot of things in natural selection weren't designed around combat and to expect Flayra to change something just for combat (when it's not horribly killing the balance) is unrealistic. As it is, nades are fairly well balanced in classic and do a good job of helping take down a WOL and clearing vents.
If you get a catalyst when you spawned, that would be better, but they do just suck. Catalyst should make you do everything faster, not just fire faster. It's like speed.
Welders, in combat, do suck. There's not much you can do to them that won't affect classic, though, but increasing their range and changing the firing direction wouldn't be too much, I would think. Expanding the fire range in width would help with the webs, as long as you couldn't weld multiple people/buildings at once.
Web is insane. Xenocide was good, now it sucks in beta 4. Primal was average in beta 3, now it sucks. Let's not go into charge and acid rocket.
scanner sweep kicks in when there's a cloaker nearby, and it has a cooldown time, correct?
make catpacks kick in when there are more than 2 aliens within a certain distance and have a cooldown time.
.02
acid rocket - double damage makes it fair and usefull.
xeno- siege damage
charge- takes 50hp per second of contact... i.e. you hit a lvl 0 rine with charge and in 2 secs hes dead. heavies would last a while... also add knockback to charge.
lerk- bite, spike, spumbra, primal. its fair and usefull.
*** in order to balance any alien weapon, just make it cost more adren. you could additionally make spike cost 5 hp or something to keep from a infinate spam. ***
rine time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a rine should be able to hold 4 nades and refill at the armory. Seriously, Master Chief can hold 4 frags, 4 plasma, a rocket launcher and a sniper rifle! ... oh wait.... erm.... oh yea
We can wear heavies, with a HEAVY machine gun, and carry 4 mines, a welder, and a pistol too but only 1 grenade without any of that? please.
cat packs: stop lying, they are stolen from StarCraft terran marines. Just add them to weapon slot 4 and get over it. cat packs should subtract 10 hp from a rine to keep from spam unless you have resupply, which will make cat packs effectivly cost 2 points and usefull.
cat packs should increase ALL (yes, reload too) speed, attack damage, and defense by 33% (a la focus) for 10 seconds. reduce time or increase hp loss to balance as necessary.
hmg: slightly faster reload, i mean its just like a lmg but double the weight of the clip. marines arn't little girls, they can put the thing in fast enough.
mines: more damage, should be able to over kill a carapace skulk. should have 2 or more to make usefull.
lmg: scope would be nice, but not needed. more accurate and tweak the ROF and dmg.
welder: weld faster / do more damage (i.e. slightly less than knife plus fire damage)
shotty: very nice, slightly more dmg saturation in the spray area. (i firmly believe that at 1 meter or less, shotty should be instantly leathal for skulks, gorges, and lerks no matter what they have. i mean come on, its a friggan shotgun into their body!
GL: very slightly larger blast area & dmg. faster rounds (so you can shoot a non-leap skulk in the air and look cool)
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on to game mechanics:
rines should spawn and have an armory behind a force field protected area, ready room style but with multiple spawn ins (like a bunch of phase gates from a ready room to cc). you cannot shoot from this ready area to the cc. this will prevent spawn camping, allow the team to respawn, and let the aliens still have a good chance of pwning.
aliens should spawn within LoS of the hive, which just makes sense. also, hive regen rate should inrease as proximity to hive increases; to the point that a skulk would regen its full carapace health touching the hive. this prevents alien spawn camping and incourages skill with a gl.
possibly make upgrade availabilty based on your level instead of just order (keeps focus and gl away from early game)
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thats all i could come up with now, more l8r
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->acid rocket - double damage makes it fair and usefull.
xeno- siege damage<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair game
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->charge- takes 50hp per second of contact... i.e. you hit a lvl 0 rine with charge and in 2 secs hes dead. heavies would last a while... also add knockback to charge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I have to hump a damn level 0 marine for _2 seconds_? Do tell when exactly this idea improves charge. last I knew it already did like 100+. Hell, leap does (I think) 60 damage per second of contact and THAT seriously needs buffing up. (Do feel free to correct my numbers anyone, I'm going by memory due to lack of source about current attack damage levels.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lerk- bite, spike, spumbra, primal. its fair and usefull.
*** in order to balance any alien weapon, just make it cost more adren.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair game, again
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you could additionally make spike cost 5 hp or something to keep from a infinate spam. ***<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No...Just...No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a rine should be able to hold 4 nades and refill at the armory. Seriously, Master Chief can hold 4 frags, 4 plasma, a rocket launcher and a sniper rifle! ... oh wait.... erm.... oh yea
We can wear heavies, with a HEAVY machine gun, and carry 4 mines, a welder, and a pistol too but only 1 grenade without any of that? please.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mr. Master Chief was also solo a lot of the time, which made such a loadout work. Giving 10 marines more than 1 nade each spells instant death to any hive or WoL that the alien team doesn't have several people guarding.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->cat packs: stop lying, they are stolen from StarCraft terran marines. Just add them to weapon slot 4 and get over it. cat packs should subtract 10 hp from a rine to keep from spam unless you have resupply, which will make cat packs effectivly cost 2 points and usefull.
cat packs should increase ALL (yes, reload too) speed, attack damage, and defense by 33% (a la focus) for 10 seconds. reduce time or increase hp loss to balance as necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh. No. Absolutely terrible idea. Imagine a group of heavies charging into a hive and using cat packs. They'd be nigh on unstoppable with medspam due to the buffed damage and defense you propose to give. The only thing focus does is increase attack power, not defense. HP loss from cats was removed for a reason, and bringing it back STILL wouldn't balance this thanks to medpack rain.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hmg: slightly faster reload, i mean its just like a lmg but double the weight of the clip. marines arn't little girls, they can put the thing in fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HMGs shred kharaa into tiny little pieces. The long reload time is supposed to be the balancing factor to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mines: more damage, should be able to over kill a carapace skulk. should have 2 or more to make usefull.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are fine as is. I fail to see why they should kill a carapaced skulk. As for the amount, basing it on level would work better (ie. lv1-3=1, lv4-6=2, lv7-10=3, for example)
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lmg: scope would be nice, but not needed. more accurate and tweak the ROF and dmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No secondary weapon functions are going into the game. It's pretty much fact. The LMG is supposed to be a "jack of all trades, master of none" weapon, which it is perfect for. You want accuracy, use the pistol.
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welder: weld faster / do more damage (i.e. slightly less than knife plus fire damage)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well hey! The marines already have 2 perfectly viable melee weapons, LET'S GIVE THEM ANOTHER ONE LIKE WE HAD WY BACK WHEN IT WAS FRAME RATE DEPENDANT! Hell, the knife should do half damage to kharaa, and the welder should do none or a neglible amount. It's amazing how effective maries are in melee, yet conversely that isn't true for the kharaa and ranged efficiency. But that's a debate for another thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->shotty: very nice, slightly more dmg saturation in the spray area. (i firmly believe that at 1 meter or less, shotty should be instantly leathal for skulks, gorges, and lerks no matter what they have. i mean come on, its a friggan shotgun into their body!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Let's let the marines instagib the 30 res creature with a 10 res weapon! You have any idea how this stance would make marines totally dominate with shotty rushes if they're able to aim? Shotty rushes are already pretty godly if done right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GL: very slightly larger blast area & dmg. faster rounds (so you can shoot a non-leap skulk in the air and look cool)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gotta look cool in front of the big boys, eh? The GL is supposed to be ANTI-STRUCTURE, not anti-personell. The damage and blast radius are already good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->rines should spawn and have an armory behind a force field protected area, ready room style but with multiple spawn ins (like a bunch of phase gates from a ready room to cc). you cannot shoot from this ready area to the cc. this will prevent spawn camping, allow the team to respawn, and let the aliens still have a good chance of pwning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. Works for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->aliens should spawn within LoS of the hive, which just makes sense. also, hive regen rate should inrease as proximity to hive increases; to the point that a skulk would regen its full carapace health touching the hive. this prevents alien spawn camping and incourages skill with a gl. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait wait wait....back up a second. So marines get anti-spawncamp features, and your proposition to stop marines spawncamping the kharaa is to make their only option to maybe survive congregate under the hive? Well done, you've just made nade spamming the hive room even more viable tactic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->possibly make upgrade availabilty based on your level instead of just order (keeps focus and gl away from early game)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but expand on it. Say when these upgrades should be able to be gotten.
hard to implement, what are you? a NS developer?
hard to implement, what are you? a NS developer? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
People with some coding experience can probably comment without being an NS developer. All you'd need is basic knowledge of the HL engine.
I personally think this shouldn't be that bad. At hive 2, just remove the spore weapon from slot one and add in the sumbra. If hives drop below 2, then remove sumbra and put spore back in. It can't be that hard to do. Just some pointer manipulation.
spumbra flayra is a god again lol it is perfect CAUSE I WANT MY SPIKES BACK i hate bite <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> cause i suck at flying but that besde the point
grenades i think were more meant for classic but that my opinion in combat i just use them to have fun and be very explosive (mines gl and grenade so much fun)
welder is fine if u think it need a upg then think again dont be a greedy b**** get a damn welder urself i think it is good that he nerfed it a bit it implores more to get one instead of rambo lvl 3 shotty (i would never do taht <.< >.> <.<)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you could additionally make spike cost 5 hp or something to keep from a infinate spam. ***<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> have u been using hard drugs when u wrote that?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> what do u think stamina is for?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE
shotty: very nice, slightly more dmg saturation in the spray area. (i firmly believe that at 1 meter or less, shotty should be instantly leathal for skulks, gorges, and lerks no matter what they have. i mean come on, its a friggan shotgun into their body!
Yep. Let's let the marines instagib the 30 res creature with a 10 res weapon! You have any idea how this stance would make marines totally dominate with shotty rushes if they're able to aim? Shotty rushes are already pretty godly if done right<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
totaly agree