Religious Spectrum
taboofires
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Oh the choices</div> I'm interested in discussing the many belief systems that are not exactly mainstream (but, ideally ones with more than a handful of beleivers). Give the basic tenets/root of their philosophy, any interesting historical information you might know, and in general what defines them. Foreign ones are game too. By the end, this topic will hopefully be quite a testament to religious diversity <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also perfectly good to discuss are beliefs that are fairly common, but not well understood in the public eye.
I shouldn't have to say it, but this is a religious discussion, and we should try to avoid the typical science/religion conflict. Analysis isn't the point of the topic anyway, but rather just to explore.
In the interest of preventing a flame war, please avoid attacking the views of any religion. Feel free, however, to ask someone why they believe as such, how they came to that conclusion, etc. Or, if they're not talking about their personal views, why the followers of that particular philosopy believe it.
As usual, I'll chime in a few hours. edit: haha, I underestimated the power of exams. I'll invest the research time to do this right when I get the chance.
Also perfectly good to discuss are beliefs that are fairly common, but not well understood in the public eye.
I shouldn't have to say it, but this is a religious discussion, and we should try to avoid the typical science/religion conflict. Analysis isn't the point of the topic anyway, but rather just to explore.
In the interest of preventing a flame war, please avoid attacking the views of any religion. Feel free, however, to ask someone why they believe as such, how they came to that conclusion, etc. Or, if they're not talking about their personal views, why the followers of that particular philosopy believe it.
As usual, I'll chime in a few hours. edit: haha, I underestimated the power of exams. I'll invest the research time to do this right when I get the chance.
Comments
The school system here in the UK dictates certain subjects that must be taught. One is religious education or RE. The idea is to give the kids a view of all the major religions, thier history and fundermental beliefs.
At the time it is the most boring subject you have to do. But now, looking back i can see it for what its worth. If you look on my birth certificate, you'll see that my religion is Christianity, Church of England to be exact. I dont consider myself a Christian though. I havent been to a church in many years and i dont think I will for a long time either.
The thing is, because of all those boring lessons in religions mainly followed in far off lands, ive come to my conclusion that all reglions, at their heart, are the same. If you go through all the texts, I'll think you'll find some common themes.
Jesus (who I am sure did exist, whether he really was the son of god or not, im open to arguments) pretty much put it best with things like - love your neighbour <b>and</b> your enemy, forgive those as you would want to be forgiven, etc etc.
These seem to be the main points of all main religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindi, Sikism, Buddism etc. and this is what I try to follow. Basicly, to quote Bill and Ted:
<!--QuoteBegin-Bill and Ted+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill and Ted)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Be excellent to one another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So whille I dont consider myself part of any particular religion, I think everyone could get something out of them and that the world would be a much better place if everyone did.
I don't think that someone is a Christian because they were born into it or baptized into the faith, but instead by their choice to accept Christ's offer of forgiveness. All the other stuff is more or less a sidenote to the cross and the Crucifixion, and one's belief in that.
I believe what I do because, aside from personal experiencial and anecdotal evidence, it's one of the few religions rooted in history that uses specific, predictive prophecy to give itself validity. See Daniel 9, Isaiah 51-52, Psalms 22(?), for some of the most outstanding of them. Over 300 biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the birth, life, and death of Jesus.
I was not raised to be a Christian as I defined it above, I was told growing up to do nice things for people because God likes nice people. A friend of mine brought me around about 5 years back, and after a month or so of weighing evidence either way, I started my relationship Christ.
I suppose that's the Reader's Digest version of my faith, if anyone wants to ask me about it, I'm open to it.
The guy believes in it so fervently that it must be acknowledged as "religious".
There are 4 phases to a 'day'(One revolution of the planet.)
There are 4 places on the planet at any given time where a phase is specified. IE: In one place, it will be perfectly sun-up, another perfectly Mid-day, another mid-night, and another sun-down.
Thus, there are four separate points that each have a day/night cycle in one 24Hr period. Thus his claim that 'he has created 4 days in a 24 hour time period.'
However, if he can create 4, then I can create 5.7 billion, one for each person on the Earth. Each person experiences the full day-night sequence completely, and then creates a full day. You could go even further by saying that each point on the earth's surface experiences a day in one rotation, thus there are an infinite number of days in one 24 hour period.
The logical extrapolations of such a theory are either Sopilism or some sort of Pantheism, and frankly, I think it's just a crack-dream-esque way of saying that no two people have identical lives. Not that much of a suprise there.
Just recently, I lost my faith in God. Its rather a long story, some highlights include: extreme sacrilege and blasphemy in an effort of disowning the Almighty. But besides the sacrilege and blasphemy, I like to keep things mild. I try not to think of God or the religious aspect of it, because it seriously adds another dimension to life's problems.
Jim speaks truth. I would say that the best religion is one that gets you closest to God. Basically, whatever floats your boat.
Just recently, I lost my faith in God. Its rather a long story, some highlights include: extreme sacrilege and blasphemy in an effort of disowning the Almighty. But besides the sacrilege and blasphemy, I like to keep things mild. I try not to think of God or the religious aspect of it, because it seriously adds another dimension to life's problems.
Jim speaks truth. I would say that the best religion is one that gets you closest to God. Basically, whatever floats your boat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say I feel close to God when I'm sacrificing children or flying planes into buildings? is that ok?
Or, to a lesser degree, suppose my religion involves me shooting copious ammounds of narcotics into my veins. Is that healthy, and should that be encouraged, if it makes me feel closer to God?
Just recently, I lost my faith in God. Its rather a long story, some highlights include: extreme sacrilege and blasphemy in an effort of disowning the Almighty. But besides the sacrilege and blasphemy, I like to keep things mild. I try not to think of God or the religious aspect of it, because it seriously adds another dimension to life's problems.
Jim speaks truth. I would say that the best religion is one that gets you closest to God. Basically, whatever floats your boat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say I feel close to God when I'm sacrificing children or flying planes into buildings? is that ok?
Or, to a lesser degree, suppose my religion involves me shooting copious ammounds of narcotics into my veins. Is that healthy, and should that be encouraged, if it makes me feel closer to God? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of those worked for societiies in the past. I see no reason why that can't be as valid a method of worship as praying towards mecca or lobbying for the abolition of abortion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Be excellent to one another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
isn't that supposed to be:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Be excellent to eachother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and I'm pretty sure only Ted said it...
I might as well throw this in here too:
I read a short story recently, the crux of which was that you will never die. Basically the bogus theory went like this: There are an infinite number of timelines, and a new one is created for every possible outcome of every situation in the universe. Because of this, there will always be a timeline in which you are alive, you can never totally cease to exist, you mearly become increasingly unlikely.
And annother idea:
There is evidence that time is an illusion. If this is the case, then the universe's starting and ending configuration are "known" and cannot be changed. In otherwords you cannot possibly do anything you weren't meant to do.
isn't that supposed to be:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Be excellent to eachother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and I'm pretty sure only Ted said it... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Might be i havent seen the film in a while, I'll have to dig it out at some point. Also if i'd just said "to quote Ted", no one would know what i was talking about, so i said Bill and Ted.
But my point was that it shouldnt matter what religion you follow, if you follow one at all, what is important that we take to heart aspects of their teachings and beliefs and try to act on them, that we should just be nice to each other for a change.
Oh and the time cube guy does seem to be crazy, declaring your self greater than God (if you believe in him), just becuase hes come up with a new why of thinking about the day/ time. Admittadly i only had a quick skim through the page as it was so long and the constantly changing font size and colour hurt my brain. That and he seemed ludicrous anyway.
If you want to read up on a really good religion try Zen Buddhism, if i was ever going to believe in anything it would be this one. Absolutely brilliant stuff.
One more exam, then comes the good stuff <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wicca seems to have been changed a lot throughout the years, converted into a "omg cool u can be a witch lololol" version for teenagers that want to be hip. Not that it IS that, mind you, I just mean that a lot of the books I found on it seem that way.
Satanism actually strikes me as the kind of religion I'd go for, if it didn't involve so much junk that I found extraneous and trite, if not downright silly. It's actually more of a philosophy, as LaVey himself said, focusing on a kind of self-worship, and indulgence of what the Christians consider the seven sins (hence the name Satanism... it doesn't worship the Christian version of the devil or anything).
I grew up with an extremely Catholic mother, but I only 'believed' in it in the way that little kids do because it's just a mantra; just something they told me to say and act and think, and so I did. When I finally started thinking for myself, I realized that I didn't believe a word of it and left.
My idea of religion is that you believe whatever you want to believe, but don't impose your beliefs on anyone nor treat anyone for the worse because of it. And even if you affiliate with any major religion, use your head and your heart. Don't blindly go with what the leaders or books or head honchos tell you, or accept anything they say simply because of their rank. I've seen too many good people enforce thoughts and beliefs they felt were wrong, simply because their religious leaders told them to.
My religion, sounds some what like what Athena described as "Satanism." I believe in the power of the human soul. I don't really believe in a higher power, there are stronger spirits, but they aren't the almight kind. It's a hodge podge of what I have researched, tried and found out what I think is true.
Religion is what you believe in, no one can tell you what is right or wrong, only you can. Following one religion because of what someone else says or what you were taught and not bothering to learn about others is narrow minded and truthfully, a missed chance of becoming more spiritually inlightened. It is always better to learn more about things, if not for the spirit then for the mind. You'll be less afraid of the world if you do. But that's my opinoin.
Yeah, just incredibly daft. Another one worth reading though.
Now I'm a relatively steadfast atheist. However, the journey from Catholicism to Atheism wasn't an overnight revelation. My rejection of Catholicism and Christianity in general was fairly quick, and I settled into a comfortable state of Deism for a period of three to four years. I didn't know it was Deism at the time, but in retrospect, that's the closest thing that resembled my beliefs. As I progressed through my teenage years, I found that Deism held less and less value in my life. The only time I invoked God's name was in various expressions of anger, disgust or annoyance. Namely, "Oh God, what did you do now?" and "For the love of God." I still use such expressions, but just out of habit and common use. It's similar to living in Southern California. Live there long enough and every other word you utter will be "like."
My Deism eventually melted into Agnosticism. I was living a God-free life and I was fine with it. I think that my adoption of Agnosticism as a spiritual philosophy or belief system (if you can call them that) was a factor of a few things. First, I live in a fairly small city. The population is around 12,000 and most of the people are religious or at least spiritually inclined. My desire to go unnoticed by the community was certainly a factor in my avoidance of the "atheist" title. The second component of my Agnosticism was a lingering guilt of my religious upbringing. Up to that point, I had never outright <i>denied</i> the existance of God.
Shortly before my 16th birthday, I was struck by the fact that I was already an Atheist. I didn't believe in God, follow the teachings of any prophets or subscribe to the doctrines of any organized religion. Consequently I took up the mantle of Atheism out of glaring logical necessity. I was as much an Atheist as I was white, and to deny it further would be without point or merit. My "descent" to Atheism wasn't the trip to moral and spiritual oblivion that I had been told about previously.
Ultimately, I'm quite angry at religion in general. From an intellectual point, I feel like I've been lied to. The portrayal of Atheism as a crippling wasteland of immorality and perversion was utterly untrue. That things that I had been asked to believe without question rested on terminological sleight of hand and that any doubt be immediately reproached with overwhelming amounts of guilt and systematic shaming.
From a personal perspective, my dislike of religion has been driven by frustration and counter-contempt. From my experience, most people can barely define what it is they believe, let alone defend it from an organized assault. The frustration of having to perpetually explain the what and why of my thought processes to people who have seemingly no interest is vexing, to say the least. I say "counter-contempt" for a reason. Usually, when questioned about my religion, I say, "I'm an Atheist." The declaration is often met with expressions of disdain and disbelief. The two most commonly encountered expressions are "Oh." But not an "oh" of apathy, but the sort of "oh" you hear when something bad happens. "Oh, your dog died." or "Oh, your mom has cancer." The other is a look of total bewilderment. It's as if, at my declaration of Atheism, a giant phallus suddenly sprouted from my forehead and sat there, waving in the breeze.
Whenever I express my thoughts on a theist's reactions, I'm usually met with two responses. First, not all Christians are like that. That statement is usually followed by a paragraph or short speech about how Christianity is wonderfully tolerant and how they're wonderfully tolerant because they suppressed the urge to commit a hate crime. The second is the accusation that I'm intolerant. Somehow, their beliefs are sacrosanct and my criticisms make me an bigot. I actually prefer the second reaction, since I always get some amusement when members of a large and powerful social group play the victim card.
Well, that's the short version of my theological history and current standings. We could go into my philosophical thoughts, but that's a whole thread on its own. I'll probably get flamed for my post, but at this point, I'm used to it.
I'm sorry you've gotten that bad taste in your mouth from Christians. I'm afraid the truth is, Christ didn't teach tolerance as much as he taught compassion. Where tolerance puts up with shortcomings, compassion acepts them as long as is needed to help a person overcome them. Tolerance would be accepting at face value a person's hate of another race, compassion is actively working to help that person overcome it completely.
I would like to hear some of your specific criticisms, it'd be personally interesting for me, and might be educating for you as well.
Just a question I wanted to throw out as well: When studying religion, is it appropriate to try and discern which is correct and which is wrong, or is it 'right' just to learn about them for the sake of doing so?
Personally, I'm not sure if there is a God or Gods, from my point of view I just can't be sure, and I haven't had a strict religious upbringing like some of you have, to either accept or reject it on the basis of what I've been taught to make a firm decision.
I know its not something we're really allowed to talk about in the discussion section (so dont make a huge deal about how I'm wrong, if you feel that way, try to keep it to yourself or PM me I really would like to hear your arguments, I just dont want to get a ban), but I've often thought about the existance of God from a physics perpextive. I'm thinking beyond creationism vs. evolution, but to the Law of Conservation of Energy, something, that as a physist we have to believe in (energy can not be created or destroyed, only transfered and converted to different forms, for those who dont know). Where did all the energy (which later became mass) come from that started the Big Bang (which is something I believe steadfastly in)? It had to come from somewhere at somepoint didnt it? The only thing I could think of is that it was created bysomething greater than the Universe, to which our observed laws dont apply. In short, a God.
I dont personally have the faith to just believe this though, I have no conclusive proof that this is the truth, but none to disprove it either. Hence the root of my Agnosticism.
In reply to Legionnaried's question, I don't think, when learning about religion it is right to do so in the context of determining which is right and which is wrong. People belive what the want, and I feel it is of far more benefit to learn about other religions just to learn, in order to push your own boundries of what you know, believe, trust and to gain a more insightfull view of the world.
I have a quote, I cant remember by who exactly (and the wording my be off as well, I can't find the book it was from, but the meaning is right) but he was a scientist, and I think it applies to your question very well,
"Do not try to prove that you are right. Instead strive to prove that you are wrong."
Which to me means that if you've exhusted every possibility that you are wrong, then you must be right. Therefore, in order to make an unbiased verdict, you must learn all about the other religions. In which case I think you might find that no religion is 100% right, which means none are 100% wrong, and so are all equally valid.
the point of my post is to say that it'd be interesting to get Beast to post here about the wolf thing. although i dont believe i was a wolf in a past life, it would be quite enlightening to hear about that ...
and that's interesting about satanism. yo're saying that the guy who came up with it actulaly had decent philosophical viewpoints, except then he just muddled it up with wierd rituals? I had always thought satanism was about sacrificing virgins and drinking blood, or something awful like that. I have no interest in joining, it just sounds like an interesting .. thing.
I Can't really atribute my beliefs any religion really.. I believe in the existance of "gods" - however, in my beliefs, they are not "all powerful", Very powerfull, yes. All powerfull, No.
I believe in the existance of many "gods" - Including the Christian "God" - allthough I believe he is more a "God for humans", rather than the "all powerfull creator of everything". Other "Gods" I believe exist include the native American "Great wolf" and possibly weirdly, the Egyptian jackal god Anubis..
I believe in what seems a mesh of ideals/concepts of many religions, closest one might be something native american based... but.. I'm not sure.. I believe in the existance of the soul, in reincarnation, spirits, "miricles" somewhat and a lot of other things...
Most imfamously, my beliefs include the fact I believe I am a "wolfkin" - I.E. - In a previous life I was a wolf, in many ways, I am still a wolf now.. which is why I choose to use the avatar/sig I use.. which is why I "roleplay" when I can as a wolf online, plus it's somewhat entertaining for myself and others, so its win-win <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> [edit - will explain more when I get home, in another post]
I personaly base my beliefs on feelings/experience, and a lot of research. I've had numerous "impossible" things proven to me in front of my eyes.. and talked with a vast number of "wise people".
Well.... that was more like ten cents... but.. whatever.
Anyway, when I was younger I went to Church every week, Sunday School after that and took part in various religious activities. I read the Bible because I wanted to (we weren't expected to in our church though many did) rather than being told to and decided to really try and get the most out of religion. I wrote a few hymns for our local 'christian rock' band and when I was a bit older (about 13 I guess) I regularly took part in meetings over at the vicars house and helped them devise services (they wanted a kids perspective to make religion more 'fun'). In fact at one stage I led whole sections, did readings, call's to prayer etc.
In short I gave it a serious try, as I got older though I just found I was doing it to feel part of something rather than because I actually believed. I used to think about religion <b>alot</b> and the more time I spent soul searching the more I came to realise I didn't actually have a soul. The idea just seems... ludicrous to me.
Of course, those who I used to be friends with at church stopped being quite so friendly when I stopped the whole religious thing, partly understandable as we didn't see each other as much but... well theres a difference between drifting apart and walking away.
Of course all this background helps me when I get cornered by a christian and I'm always more than happy to talk. Usually they come away with more dents in their faith than I do and yes, as Big Jim said, being an Athiest does take a lot of faith. After all in the end there is no proof for the existence of God either way so really the only logical thing to do is sit on the fence. I've never been the type to sit on the fence however and I simply cannot believe in a God, I really wish I did, I swear I'd be far happier.
Legionnaired, I don't believe in right or wrong (as categorical imperatives anyway, I have my own personal ideas as to what is right and wrong but they are mine, no ones elses, always been an Emotivist, that was possibly the first crack in my 'faith', what made me start questiong. Basically I disagreed with 'god's' idea of what is right and wrong... and of course being a typical human I came to the conclusion that I was right and so there obviously wasn't a god <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->). I look at religions for two reasons, they give really interesting insights in to human nature and various different cultures and 2) because I keep hoping that one day something will actually make sense to me and I'll finally have a religion of my own (Again, Xen Buddhism was great, so far it made the most sense to me (if you get rid of some mumbo-jumbo stuff again, plus I'm lazy and its one of the laziest religions around, you don't even have to die to reach nirvana! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> (if that offended anyone PM me and I'll retract it but you know I don't mean it offensively))).
Whoa, lots of brackets there. I'm gonna stop now and get back to work.
PS. Lo Grendal, long time no see.
Edited for Grammar reasons and because I spelt Zen as Xen, I don't <i>think</i> aliens are buddhist so thought I'd better change it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and so are all equally valid. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly, I think this is the single worst insult to a faith that you could devise.
I would not believe God if I believed that by doing so, he would cease to exist. I believe in Him because He has shown me enough of Himself that I can know that He is there, and will keep being 'there,' regardless of whatever I believe. I can live my life in total rebellion, and yet I know that I'm going to have to pay for that.
In short, God is soverign.
Now, what of your claim that all religions have equal validity? If I am to believe that God is an actual being, not only that, but who I have a personal relationship with, how can I also believe completely that Beast's belief that he is/was a wolf, and other Gods exist that look over him equally valid? Our two belief systems are contradictory, and they cannot both be true at the same time. One of them has to be wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In reply to Legionnaried's question, I don't think, when learning about religion it is right to do so in the context of determining which is right and which is wrong. People belive what the want, and I feel it is of far more benefit to learn about other religions just to learn, in order to push your own boundries of what you know, believe, trust and to gain a more insightfull view of the world.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the problem, is that these silly little faiths of ours are being treated as if they are some accessory to our lives. What makes us feel good.
However, what good is being at peace with my life, when I'm going to be dead and buried, or dead and being punished or rewarded for my ignorace/sin/unenlightened state? A belief is not something that we should feel we can easily slide between and work out OK. One of these is true, and since most of them contradict each other, they cannot be right at the same time. One of these religions has to be correct, in the sense that there actually IS/Isn't a God, and the rest will be wrong accordingly.
What good is insight into the entire world if I lose my own soul? Should we not, instead of just learning, actually try and see which one is right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Usually they come away with more dents in their faith than I do and yes, as Big Jim said, being an Athiest does take a lot of faith. After all in the end there is no proof for the existence of God either way so really the only logical thing to do is sit on the fence. I've never been the type to sit on the fence however and I simply cannot believe in a God, I really wish I did, I swear I'd be far happier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Daniel 9:25+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daniel 9:25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-http://www.yfiles.com/king.html+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (http://www.yfiles.com/king.html)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The First 69 Weeks
A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:
9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
This includes a mathematical prophecy. Verse 24 states that "seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city." In Hebrew the word translated as "weeks" is pronounced "shabua" and literally means a week of years. The word shabuim would readily be understood as a seven of years in this context, much like the word decade means ten years in English.
Verse 25 then declares that Daniel should "know and Understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jurusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks." This verse is a precise mathematical prediction of the time of Messiah's coming! In effect, the angel Gabriel told Daniel that after sixty-nine weeks of years the Messiah would be revealed to the nation of Israel!
If a "shabuim" is a week (seven) of years, it therefore follows that 69 sevens is 483 years (69 x 7= 483 years).
The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days.
In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.
The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)
Bull's Eye!
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 b.c.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)
But when did the Messiah present Himself as a King? During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it. "Mine hour is not yet come."6
The Triumphal Entry
Then one day He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ****, and upon a colt the foal of an ****."
Zechariah 9:9
Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!
"I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."
Luke 19:40
This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 a.d.9
The Precision of Prophecy
When we examine the period between March 14, 445 b.c. and April 6, 32 a.d., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!
Here are the calculations.
March 14th, 445 B.C. to March 14th, 32 A.D. is 476 years.
(1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is one year, There is no year zero)
476 years x 365 days per year = 173,740 days
Add for leap years = 116 days (Leap years do not occur in century years unless divisible by 400 [therefore, we must add three less leap years in four centuries])
March 14th to April 6 th = 24 days
total = 173,880
How could Daniel have known this in advance? How could anyone have contrived to have this detailed prediction documented over three centuries in advance?
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<!--QuoteBegin-Psalms 22+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psalms 22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
22:1? For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David. <span style='color:red'>My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?</span> Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?
2? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.
3? Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel.
4? In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them.
5? They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6? But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people.
7? All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8? "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."
9? Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.
10? From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11? Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12? Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13? Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me.
14? <span style='color:red'>I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me.
15? My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
16? Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17? I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
18? They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.</span>
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Not only do we have the <i>exact last words of Christ before his death,</i> in verse 1, we also have a somewhat accurate description of his life and the last moments of his crucifixion.
This is, of course, written several hundred years B.C, confirmed by carbon dating/dead sea scrolls.
<!--QuoteBegin-Isaiah 53+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isaiah 53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
53:1? Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3? He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4? Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5? But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6? We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7? He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8? By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9? He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10? Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11? After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12? Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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And, not only do we have in Isaiah an accurate description of Christ's life, but also a description of crucifixtion, and the Gospel message layed out.
<i><span style='color:yellow'>Dated Circa 700 B.C.</span></i>
Yes, I cannot present an airtight case for Christ, and I cannot prove either way God's existance or not, but I can show, far beyond reasonable doubt, that the Bible is filled with a slew of prophecies about Christ's life, death, ressurection, and divinity. Some of them dating events in his life to the day, thousands of years later.
That prophecy in Daniel, nailing the date of Christ's enterence into Jerusalem, is off by give or take 12 hours.
12 hours over the time given has a margin of error less than 2.88x10^-3 percent.
As for all faiths being equally valid, yes that is probably the best assumption to be made.
If you ask why, then ask yourself this, did you actually compare all of the other faiths there are available out there? If the answer is no, then you are missing the fact the vast majority of them are based on the same principles, be nice to everyone, and you will be rewarded after you are dead. That is simply the main principle behind every faith. Albeit Satanism is more be nice to just yourself, but then there are the odd balls out there occasionally. :-)
The Bible as I have stated previously is simply another good book of morals, much like the Koran, and all those wonderful Zen Budduhism books. I find those intriguing. :-)
No I do not have a religion nor am I particularly spiritual, but that is by choice because I have read most of the basic principles available, and I simply have come to the conclusion that if you want to be rewarded in the "afterlife" if there is one, then treat everyone as you wish to be treated. That is the most simple lesson that the Bible, Koran, Buddah, Ghandi, and every other lovely prophet, messiah, creator, etc say. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What I posted, is an account of someone saying "In 1600 years, someone will enter into Columbus, OH, riding on a motorcycle, and crouds will welcome him into the city as the annointed messiah of God."
Then, that happens exactly how it was foretold, and on exactly the same date that it was foretold. It's not just writing something down, it is predicting exactly how some individual will act in almost two millenia. The socio-economic forces of time can be predicted, but people are different, and simply can't be pinpointed like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No I do not have a religion nor am I particularly spiritual, but that is by choice because I have read most of the basic principles available, and I simply have come to the conclusion that if you want to be rewarded in the "afterlife" if there is one, then treat everyone as you wish to be treated. That is the most simple lesson that the Bible, Koran, Buddah, Ghandi, and every other lovely prophet, messiah, creator, etc say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you say, that is the gist of most religions.
But "be nice to each other" is simply the most watered down Christianity could get while still even attempting to look the same. God wants people to be nice to each other, yes, but mankind is currently in complete, utter rebellion against God. The deeds of one's life are unimportant, compared to the horrible things we do to each other and ourselves, that we do against God, every single day. This sin, we are told in the Bible, cannot be undone by good works, nor covered over by anything except for the blood of Christ himself, God's only son.
Few major religions claim that man actually has a debt to pay to God, and Christianity is the only one that actually goes so far as to say that God himself sacrificed something, sacrificied himself, to pay that debt for us.
I don't care if you want to lump everything else together, but Christianity stands completely separate from every other religion. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is not a religion at all, but a relationship with God, to the point of becoming a 'friend of God.' Christ didn't ask for good deeds, nor for the performance of ritual, but for the laying down of the arms we've brought up against God, an apology, and a bowing of the knee.
All other things are merely symbolic, to remind us of what He did. The relationship is the only thing that counts, and the rewards to be gotten in heaven all spring from it. All good deeds go to the glory of that friendship, and all the horrible things we still do, also show more His glory, love and forgiveness.
Christianity is a religion of grace, among others of crushing law, preached ignorance, and futile works.
However, the Bible, the only one to use predictive prophecy to support it's point, is also one of the few writings to claim that man cannot
Specific criticisms of Christians or of Christianity? Both lists would probably be pretty long, and I'd like to avoid rehashing topics that have already been covered in depth.
To answer your first question about studying religion, I study it out of a desire to know more about the world, as opposed to searching for salvation. Religion is a large part of the world and to pretend that it doesn't exist or isn't influential enough to merit study would be an exercise in naivete. I view religions as equal, although I find some to be more interesting/amusing/self-contradictary than others. However, my views that religions are equal doesn't beget validity. I no more believe in Jehovah than I do Amaterasu, Hathor, Loki or Quetzalcoatl.
I'd like to point out that using the bible to prove the bible's divinity is a logical fallacy.
And because I'm a masochist: define "God" for me.
We accept such proof all the time: Someone who has never been known to tell a lie is trusted, where nobody listens to what a liar has to say. And, of course, you would heed the advice of an older, trusted, wise authority figure or mentor over that of a young kid who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.
If the Bible has recorded evidence of people predicting things that could not have possibly have been predicted any other way than divine inspiration, how does that not give it at least more precidence over other texts, that in some places are even blatantly false?
For example, the Book of Mormon speaks of rivers that flow into the Red Sea, and no river has ever flown into the Red Sea.
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And because I'm a masochist: define "God" for me.
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A maximally powerful, completely righteous, completely loving, and completely just sentient being.
It sickens me to hear people say that God is completely loving. It makes them sound like stark and blind <insert relgious sect.>
I will never allow myself to doubt the possibilities of God, or the inverse. But to label God this quality makes me want to weep for the many souls in Sheol.
I have a couple of questions.
Did I have a choice in being created?
Do you think God ever wonders where he came from? Or how he came into being?
The devil isn't evil? I believe he isn't truly evil; I mean a fallen angel? I've been wondering about the whole story behind Lucifer.
Paul the apostle believed in predestiny, does this mean we are all predestined to go to heaven or hell? Seeing that God is all powerful-creator of each and everyone of us-does that mean he ties the knot?
See the rising problem?
Reincarnation, possible answer?
Supposing that God created our souls and that our souls are seemingly infinite in age-existing since the last ice age or before, depending on which soul was created ealier or later-this would explain the problem. It seems logical that our "souls" would pick a certain destiny before we exist in the physical world. I could go on explaining the metaphysics of the whole "freedom of choice" aspect on how we are in actual control of our lives, but that would be a waste of time for all of us. Then we have the freedom of choice in being reincarnated or not; we can choose to live a certain life in hopes of having a better understanding of God and ourselves. This doesn't mean that all of us are being constantly reincarnated. Perhaps in the spiritual dimension, time does not exist; what may seem like an eternity there, could actually be a so and so amount of years here.
As you can see, I have a lot of questions; mostly irrelevant. I like to believe in the aesthetics of what man can become. I admire each sunset that slowly rises and quickly falls; the universe has many possibilities; I just hope to tap on a lot of them.
Nihilistically speaking, "God is dead." Yes, he might as well have planted the universe in a garden. Then again, who knows?
I know the future right now :
World is gonna collapsing, wars in the east with oppostion vs coallition forces in Iraq..Many many earthquakes in the world riht now. people dies and dies.. This is the worst nightmare comming.
Well..Noone knows if this reality is just a game or reality what we live in. But we know that life is temporary. Life is evolution and life is a rollercoaster.
Noone KNows..
The access to know this all is to acess and know. Well man i dont know what gonna be in the future with us. Just look Saddam, been laden and George bush have war without a break. Damn The devil have a son in the world.
Like Jesus Christus Was Gods only son, what died for us on the cross.
The devils son is here soon i guess. Darkness falls.
This is really A MORDOR.
My wish is P.E.A.C.E for ever.
oh yes..Comments about something ask me.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What good is insight into the entire world if I lose my own soul? Should we not, instead of just learning, actually try and see which one is right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens if no religion is right? I've searched for something to believe in but can't find anything except athiesm, its the only one that makes sense to me.
Religions are all equally valid to someone who doesn't believe as they are all a list of rules with basically the same right and wrongs and they all have pretty much the same effect on society. The only difference between them is the rituals and the person to pray too. If there is no god then none of that matters and religion just becomes a conscience for society.
Those quotes were really interesting btw, glad you showed them too me. However I cannot take the bible literally at all. How many times has it been translated? Changed by various versions of christianity and different ages to emphasise certain points. I don't know if you have ever played Chinese Whispers but it only takes a few people to completely change a sentence. The Bible has been passed down for thousands of years, has been written by loads of different people, translated and changed etc. For every devout christian who had the opportunity to change it how many idiots hands did it fall in to?
And of course there is the mystic meg effect, that is, if you say enough stuff that can be suitably interpreted you will be right at some point. After all even a stopped clock has the right time on it every 12 hours (love that analogy, can't remember who it's by though). For instance the whole "Why have your forsaken me" line, its fairly poetic and I'm sure there have been plenty of people who have said it before. It just so happens that two people in the bible did, I know its stretching coincedence but when combined with everything else and the sheer fact that the idea of a God is ludicrous to me... well it doesnt convince me.
How can you prove that those prophecies weren't changed slighty? Or how many prophecies might have been cut out when they didn't come true? There's always rumours about sections of the bible being held back, whole books locked away in secret bunkers in rome etc?
I simply cannot believe because of the bible or take it seriously. Besides which for every astoundingly 'accurate' prophecy there are a load of contradictions, just look at the varying accounts of the crucifiction/resurrection. Anyway, I have to work, this reply has taken over an hour and a half just to write this, very busy today.
I'll just say this. If there is a god I have no problem with a all-powerful and, more importantly, and all loving god. Yes bad things happen but while the problem of Evil is annoying it doesn't actually contradict the idea of a god, just that we don't know his plan.