Principals of design
HanzGruber
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 47Members
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 47Members
<div class="IPBDescription">We can learn a lot from other games...</div>Well...it's pretty simple...we can learn a damm lot from professional games... that is not to say "copy them" but, the principals of lighting and so on (particularly lighting and general ambience) is very very important to the mood of the map..
Take for example Kreed...I just had a gander at the tech demo and it blew me away...sure, it's engine can handle more poly's - but the same ideas and motivation behind their design is what should be driving us....
Heres some screenies to show you what I mean by good level design....
Take for example Kreed...I just had a gander at the tech demo and it blew me away...sure, it's engine can handle more poly's - but the same ideas and motivation behind their design is what should be driving us....
Heres some screenies to show you what I mean by good level design....
Comments
And what game is that again? Kreed? Never heard of it.
If I'm not mistaken (I could be), Kreed it being designed by a German ( ? ) developer. I forgot where I saw it first, but it was a while ago... Can't remember any names.
I think something that we all need to realize and remember is that it is in fact the new lighting engines that make these next gen games look so amazing. Much much more than the amount of plolys it can handle. Comparing Half-Life's lighting engine to the new next gen ones is like comparing a worm to a man to put it bluntly.
While it is a very good thing to be inspired and try to do similar things with your NS map lighting, it is - and always will be - quite impossible to recreate the kind of lighting in these screens (in the hl engine). As new engines come out, they don't just allow an increase in the # of poly's your games can handle... It really is the lighting engine that makes titles like Kreed and Doom3 look so realistic and awe inspiring.
As an example, the intricate little detailed shadows that stick out so much in these shots are near <b>impossible</b> to recreate in HL's engine. You just simply are not going to see this kind of stuff in NS.
But yes, we should all be inspired by the mood these shots set and at least try and recreate the atmosphere the best we can... because it really is great.
Kreed is being developed by <a href="http://www.burut.ru/" target="_blank">Burut Software</a>, a Russian developer.
But again, it is the lighting and its shadows that make those shots look so amazing (not polys), and the lighting engine is responsible for that (err... yeah...). Half-Life's lighting engine can not even produce similar shadows. Trust me, I've tried.
It's actually quite simple to do a bit of trickery and make shadows like that in hl engine.....textures that have the shadow on it <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
sounds silly but it actually looks quite effective...
sounds silly but it actually looks quite effective...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just started thinking along the same lines there... only with shadows as decals.
Putting the shadows directly on the textures flat out is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time.
Such a simple concept. But can you imagine to work involved? <i>I want to do it.</i> <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
I mean come on....if someone wants nice looking funky shadows for 1 or 2 projected lights....it's a way to do it!
Thanks for posting these shots, it really helps to keep your sights set high. I think the HL engine can get a LOT closer to these shots then you might think.
I mean come on....if someone wants nice looking funky shadows for 1 or 2 projected lights....it's a way to do it!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I said "I <b>want</b> to do it." <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> I like the idea, in other words.
<!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Valve has taken it's time with things before and to some extent people are thankful for the extra thought and work put into their releases. But, speaking for the broader community, we are sick of them kicking the hl horse - well and truly after the horse has died.
This is not a dig at NS - modding is a completely different issue. Valve needs to get their ### into gear and release some new titles and not just another
"Half-Life: The Black Mesa Incident From the Perspective of a Headcrab".
Rant rant rant rant
Oooooh, off topic!
I want that! /me goes off to kill some scientists. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
As far as TF2's development, it's still spent less time in development than a number of other games that have been released (or are still in development), and last I checked was in the middle of a complete engine overhaul. Not something that can happen just overnight. And the media blackout they currently have? Excellent idea, too bad they didn't get that idea from the start. Who would be bitching if TF2 spent just as much time in development but we hadn't seen anything of it in the process?
I'm sorry to go off like this, but it pisses me royally the hell off to see this kind of response to the company that gave us the very game being modified to give us this great mod in Natural Selection. See any other companies continuously adding new features to their games? See any other companies with mod expos? I sure as hell don't. This entire community has been so spoiled by what we've been given by Valve and Gearbox so far, and our thanks to them is continuously bitching about how they're 'milking' the HL series. And most of those are the same ones who will see the next TF2 screens and be "OMG, Valve, I luv you!" HL wasn't a fluke -- these guys know what they're doing.
hope the new engine (i asume they'll continue working on the former quake engine) supports reflective surfaces and runs as smoothly as unreal tournament but is as easy to map for as this engine...blabla bla bla.....engine....bla bla blaa blablablaa....
sorry! Of topic i guess
EDIT: I take that back it wasn't off topic:)
Valve has stated <i>several</i> times that they are <b>not</b> going to be using an enhanced Quake engine anymore, and that they are in fact creating their own game engine for upcoming games. I can assure you that reflective surfaces will be one of the least noticable features of the engine. TF2/HL2 will look nothing like what we are used to today... At least HL2 won't. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
But really, Valve is definately <b>not</b> going to be using a souped up Quake engine for TF2. Those old shots are completely obsolete.
Just so everyone is straight on that issue... <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
<img src="http://mumuland.co.uk/ns/map/ns_jewel/coridor10009.jpg" border="0">
Until I saw those kreed shots and dicided to see if I could do better using the lighting engine,
<img src="http://mumuland.co.uk/ns/map/ns_jewel/coridor10010.jpg" border="0">
What do you think? I'm still playing with it but I dont think I'll get it much better - perhaps a little sharper, it dosnt require changing rad settings much eather.</b>
But why go to the second way when the first looks so much nicer?