Marine Upgrades In Ns
Hovaring_Fatty
Join Date: 2004-02-11 Member: 26433Members
Join Date: 2004-02-11 Member: 26433Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Comms are obsessed with weapons upgrades</div> I hate going into pub servers only to find that the comm researches lvl 3 weapons and only lvl 1 armor. If you're not going to be giving weapons to marines and just let them run around the map with their LMG's I dont see the point. Every level of research for weapons adds +1 dmg to the LMG. So you go from 10dmg per bullet to 13dmg per bullet. So after spending close to 100res on researching lvl 3 guns it now takes 7 shots to kill a vanilla skulk as opposed to 9 shots with lvl 0.
Now, every level of armor allows the marine to survive an extra skulk bite (until lvl 2). So at level 1 it takes 3 skulks bites to kill, lvl 2 takes 4 skulk bites.
If you had the choice:
Surviving 4 skulks bites, when originally you can only survive 2
-or-
Killing a skulk in 7 shots, when originally you can kill them with 9
Now I'm not completely opposed to weapons upgrades, but I feel they are alot less important than armor in the beginning of the game when basically all your marines have LMG's and the majority of aliens are skulks. Only until you have enough res to start distributing shotties and other advanced weapons, are when weapons upgrades actually viable.
Now, every level of armor allows the marine to survive an extra skulk bite (until lvl 2). So at level 1 it takes 3 skulks bites to kill, lvl 2 takes 4 skulk bites.
If you had the choice:
Surviving 4 skulks bites, when originally you can only survive 2
-or-
Killing a skulk in 7 shots, when originally you can kill them with 9
Now I'm not completely opposed to weapons upgrades, but I feel they are alot less important than armor in the beginning of the game when basically all your marines have LMG's and the majority of aliens are skulks. Only until you have enough res to start distributing shotties and other advanced weapons, are when weapons upgrades actually viable.
Comments
That's my order every time I comm. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And weapon upgrades are just as important, honestly... if you kill the Skulk before he gets to you, you don't NEED to take those bites. They're also a percentage increase per level, not a static 'add one damage' increase. So it's quite a bit more effective.. once you take a bite, that armor is gone unless someone welds it back up, or you die.
As opposed, weapon upgrades have no chance of degradation. They're a 'better' investment in that regard.
The Comm just purchases based on the overall skill level of the team. Do they have enough people who can aim to make Weapons 1 pay for itself, or would Armor 1 extend the short-term longevity of the spray-and-prayers to better effect?
[edit] as talisn said, armor 3 is 4 skulk bites armor 2 is still only 3.
That is like saying in CS you should rush with the AWP, because it has one hit kills (Bad anology). But the fact is non-uber pubbers will NOT kill the skulk before it gets to him and that extra bite will make all the diffrence. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That is like saying in CS you should rush with the AWP, because it has one hit kills (Bad anology). But the fact is non-uber pubbers will NOT kill the skulk before it gets to him and that extra bite will make all the diffrence. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its nothing like saying you should rush AWP in CS, the AWP has the advantage of being a one hit kill, but it also has the disadvantage of being **** at close range. With NS upgrades there is no disavantage at all for having a higher level LMG, shot gun, or HMG, it simply allows you to kill aliens faster in all situations. Even if you can't kill a skulk before he kills you, he still must have taken exorbitant ammounts of damage and therefore has to either run back to hive and heal, or get easily killed by the next marine he encounters. Weapons are universally adventagious.
That is like saying in CS you should rush with the AWP, because it has one hit kills (Bad anology). But the fact is non-uber pubbers will NOT kill the skulk before it gets to him and that extra bite will make all the diffrence. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its nothing like saying you should rush AWP in CS, the AWP has the advantage of being a one hit kill, but it also has the disadvantage of being **** at close range. With NS upgrades there is no disavantage at all for having a higher level LMG, shot gun, or HMG, it simply allows you to kill aliens faster in all situations. Even if you can't kill a skulk before he kills you, he still must have taken exorbitant ammounts of damage and therefore has to either run back to hive and heal, or get easily killed by the next marine he encounters. Weapons are universally adventagious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You assume all aliens will charge you down a hall. When one is caught in an ambush, you will be overtaken by surprise and that 1 more bite+ knockback will put you in a place to return damage.
Armour1 = 3 skulk bites
Armour2 = 4 skulk bites
Armour3 = 4 skulks bites
Armour0 = 2 fade swipes
Armour1 = 3 fade swipes
Armour2 = 3 fade swipes
Armour3 = 4 fade swipes
It makes a difference. If the marine can always see the alien coming, then weapons is better. But in the game, ambushing skulks, skulks rushing in in a chaotic situation, leaping skulks, silenced lerks, blinking fades etc all have the capability to easily close the distance and nullify range.
Sure, you might kill them faster, but they can kill YOU faster too. All that damage means nuts if you don't live to use it.
If a skulk backstabs a marine, no matter how good he is, it's very easy to get 2 bites in. With armour1, the marine is able to react and dodge. But still, it's 50/50. With armour2+ the marine, had better survive or he's dead anyway.
Another is the notorious meat grinder when the whole marine team beacons into the jaws of 1-2 skulks. Even with armour 1, they can massacre the whole team. For the skulks to get 4 bites in per marine, that's almost impossible and can break the alien attack.
Lastly, marine weapons do insane damage already, with marine durability the main weakness. So fix the weakness. L3 weapon comms also tend to think that the measly 13 damage LMG sufficies against fades, lerks and onos, and end up losing the game. Even if guns are dropped, you can lose them easily as marines die easily.
L3 armour of course, has no choice but to be paired with weapons to counter the damage weakness. But the gun won't be lost easily. It also helps rambos, which, face it, is going to happen and is actually essential to victory.
Think of L3 armour as medium armour, the free mini-ha.
Pistol?
Actually as long as you have enough bullets and conserve enough bullets for each skulk there is you'll have a chance against them. Because when it comes down to big swarms of skulks (let's say around 5 or so) then you're pretty much dead without a buddy handing support fire. If it's a Fade, you'r pretty much screwed without backup of 2-3 marines that have godlike aim.
It won't matter what upgrade you get. It's the way you play that makes it different.
Some people believe that a "strong offense is a good defense". This can be true in some circumstances. This in turn will force a player into improving their aim a lot to help with tracking down aliens.
Other people believe that building up defense is much more efficient. Of course, this would be the converse of the above. This would mean more srategic movement. THis will also cut down on marines needed to hold of an area. I'll cite an example from here :
You are in a group of 2 and are up against a Focus skulk. Without armor one you die quickly. However WITH armor one, your numbers have basically doubled provided you use knockback.(Something which I can't do BTW)
It's up to you to believe what you need. However in NS games, you'e gonna have to go with the flow.
EDIT : Some more info I want to add.
Generally commanders like to research armor 1 for the beginning. This would cut down on the number of marine losses as you actually take 3 bites instead of the normal 2. Then the weapons upgrades. This will increase your offensive capascity, even moreso with stronger weapons. Teching up to weapons level 3 is a very risky move, because you have to make sure your marines can hit aliens at least around 2/3 with their aim. If they don't they usually go for armor instead. Some comms like to tech slow and steady (and alternate upgrades, meaning W,A,W,A,W,A or vice versa) and some like a specific boost for their marines (and tech to the highest level of their research, like a 'good-offense-is-defense' comms tech up to level 3 weapons son after armor 1.
Also, ns is a great game but there isn't much variety. If you've ever observed clan matches of 2 good clans playing each other, you'll notice that they do pretty much the same strategy every time. There'll always be a tried and true strategy that's the most effficient, and while there are other strategies(ex: no armory in the beginning, electrifying, going weapons 1 before armor 1) they will not work as well as the tried and true strategy.
Once you start getting better at aiming your going to love those weapon upgs and don't forget the beloved shotty.
Armor 1 is the most important upg in the game though.
Thats a tactic however, not a technology.
Armor 1 is the single best upgrade you can get. Pretty much always get this one first. General order of preference, A1, W1, W2, A2. Then, depending on the number of Fades in play I go either A3 (Fades present) or W3.
this is what most of the comm did when i play
lv1 armour->lv2 armour->lv1 weapon and than it is random
Is my order, I like having W2 by the time we see the first fades.
the next is that fully upgraded marines really own kharaa.
armor1/wpns1/wpns2/armor2/armor3/wpns 3
something like this works pretty well imho.
Early, you don't need gun upgrade..
w1 = w0 against skulks, no difference, still same number of shots..
So it's more logical to go for lvl2 armor, and then w upgrades..
Armor 2 makes marines super strong against skulks..
Also weapon uprades don't help so much, with a2 first, you will have w2 at fade time and i't sufficent, some 10% extra dmg is marginal compared to extra bite from skulks. It's like adding 1 marine to the group of 10 .. almost no difference..
Lmg clip Lvl 1 = 550
Lvl 2 = 600
Anyway, all goes best with armor lvl 1, then it doens't really matter
But this i'm sure, weapon upgrades are better vs onos
3-2 is better than 2-3
I've written probably 20 pages on the above argument so I'm just going to quote it. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Needless to say, he's right. Using math to support your argument or testimonials, either way you always want armor 1 first. It's the only time I will say a comm should definately do something.
a lvl 3 lmg clip and pistol clip, if you can aim well, will take a fade from full health to about 50 with 90% hits.
2 marines who can aim relatively well, should theoretically be able to waste a fade in about 40 rounds from a lvl 3 lmg, each.
So weapons are important, but I *always* get a1,a2,w1,w2,w3,a3 or i just go straight to armour 2 and choose from there whats gonna get the best return.
The problem is that 10% bonus of lvl3 gun instead of lvl2 gun is marginal!! 1 Extra shotgun easilly makes for the damage lost by lacking upgrade.. So it's imo good to go a2 first..
Then, the following typical responses result. Comm screams at marines to gather together to hit a hive. They move in with a few shotguns, but not many as comm. tries to siege. The firepower, even with 3/1 LMG cannot kill fades or onos fast enough. Marines die, siege dies. In meantime, a lot of RTs die to solo biling gorge, solo biting skulk or onos rampager.
Next, mass heavy weapons aka shotgun rush. Sure it works, but usually the kharaa see it coming, drop some spores, get some OCs up. Marines concentrate fire on hive, skulks and fades have free reign to kill marines. Marines split 1/2 1/2 they die. Marines try to kill fade, hive lives, hive heals, reinforcements arrive to kill marines.
Or, comm gets marine with 3/1 LMG to try to hold off fades/onos. Upgraded peashooter against those....hmmm... Comm then amasses enough res to equip whole team as HA train, but is down to 1 RT. Kharaa use the time to recap RTs and get a 2nd or 3rd hive up. HA train gets devoured etc etc.
The fact is, L3 LMG IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HEAVY WEAPONS IF YOU WANT RELIABLE RESULTS. A counter-argument is that a L3 Shottie or L3 HMG owns anything anyway. But L1 armour is weak protection for your powerful guns.
A marine is most vulnerable at the start of combat if ambushed, and at the end of combat when he's reloading. A 3/1 marine, if he gets ambushed, is going to die very easily. Remember that there's not only bites to contend with, but spikes, spit and spores that reduce armour. A 1/3 marine can survive an ambush, and with a big gun fight back with pure volume even though the firepower is weaker. But it's still a big gun. And it still hurts bad. A3 offers a buffer against those mass marine wipe outs that happen so often.
Just remember to drop welders. At any rate, for reliable results, heavy weapons should be given to marines at the same time fades or onos appear. They make a lifeform investment, so you should make a weapon investment. If you agree with me that heavy weapons are a must, then would you rather your powerful big guns with 3/1 or 1/3 marines? Getting HA for marines at 4-8 minutes in is unrealistic, and a 176/shot shotgun and 20/shot hmg that can fire for at least 2 seconds is better than a 208/shot shotgun and a 24/shot hmg that only fires for 0.5 seconds.