Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
when exactely did something go wrong with you guys <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Insane+May 10 2004, 12:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ May 10 2004, 12:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I believe that Flayra always wanted a good balance between tournament play and public play. I don't see why he should alienate a large part of the community by disregarding it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I may be misreading your comment, but are you saying maps that aren't well built for 6v6 tournament games indicate that Flayra (or the dev team in general) is disregarding a large part of the community, or the opposite?
I agree that balanced, entertaining play should be the first priority of any map that's going to be officially included with the game; there ought to be maps, however, that cater to large pubs (up to 16v16) as well as smaller teams.
As I've repeated recently, the dev team is making league viability (at the 6v6 level where it's actually being played) a major factor in everything we're doing. The ability to join a pub and play in large games is also important, so it's foolish to expect every map to play at its best with twelve people.
I've come very close to shutting this thread down--as people have pointed out, equating one league leaving some maps out of the official rotation (which I'd expect anyway--if it's targeted at 24 people, you don't want to play it with 12) with the death of those maps is rediculous. We've already heard from the Bast mapping team that they're working on balance, so it's doubly premature to call Bast dead.
However, the side discussion it's started is something I want to nip in the bud, so I've left it open.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-XP-Cagey+May 11 2004, 01:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey @ May 11 2004, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I may be misreading your comment, but are you saying maps that aren't well built for 6v6 tournament games indicate that Flayra (or the dev team in general) is disregarding a large part of the community, or the opposite? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mm, no, I was replying to Yoda's statement that Flayra should develop NS (not just maps, everything) without tournament in mind. If he were to do that, it would be disregarding a large portion of the community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Edgecrusher+May 10 2004, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ May 10 2004, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Guspaz+May 10 2004, 03:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guspaz @ May 10 2004, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To be honest, who CARES? So one little no-name league in a far-off country has decided not to play a few maps. 0.001% of the NS population will not play those maps. Oh no.
It's not like these maps are dead... or even reduced in popularity in fact. There are plenty of pubs, clans, tournaments, and leagues that use them. If some 3-day-old league has decided not to play them, so what?
Also, I agree. What is this doing in the mapping section? It has no bearing or impact on these maps, despite how important oOTOo seems to think he is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know why, but it really irritates me when you call france a 'far-off country'. There are a considerable amount of french servers so i can only assume there is a french player base as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> NS was developped in the US. I'm in Canada. By both counts, France, which is thousands of kilometers away, is a far-off country.
Don't get me wrong, I live in a province where everybody speaks french, I have nothing against France. It just really IS a far-off country to me. And NS.
I was trying to reinforce the idea that this is just one small tournament that doesn't really matter, so saying the maps are dead because it's dropped them is silly.
Not to act all moderator like, but I'd point out that the mapping forum is for mapping, which is developping maps and mapping techniques and related discussions. This'd be better off in the League and Tourny forum.
<!--QuoteBegin-Draconis+May 10 2004, 08:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draconis @ May 10 2004, 08:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is it so surprising? These 3 maps are the maps that are obviously not built for 6vs6 given their size/number of nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hera has too many nodes. For the rest, the map size is not such a big deal.
-Well, i think a map like Ayumi, which was mapped a tad difficult for Jpers, oblige a team to develop a particular strategy<b> tied to Ayumi </b>to win when playing it during a scrim. This is true for all NS map, easier for some, more difficult for others.
-I think it is important to tell this news here because 1) it regards mappers before clans or leagues or whatever ; it's their maps, their hardjob and they may come here in mapping forum but not in another.
-The fact this happened in france or in planet mars is not the point and i'm always surprised when pple don't read the 1st post (especially the end paragraph). You think it will not happen in your own country ? I'm happy for you, but you could be wrong (<-- this news is only for mappers, not for scrimmers). Why do i think it could be wrong ? Because it happened here and there are no reasons it could not elsewhere ^^ This is "<b> un precedent</b>" (<- i don't know the word in english ; maybe it doesn't exist)
-This is an instructive news for mappers about how some clans are managing their maps to quit the scrimming scene.
-I want to precise that i was talking about a french league decision but i could have talked about some International Top Clans that would appreciate to sweep many maps too. Take care <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ps : I'm VERY surprised that none blabber mouth in this post asked THE question :" <b>Such a decision ? But omg ... [B]Why</b> ?[/b] " instead of "Blablabla, i'm from a lost island in pacific ocean sooooo this news is not for me" or "You are talking about you, neighboor, but i only care about me" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> You all seem (excepted a couple) to think it's a regular decision to sweep some real maps from competitions. Not one of you seems to be choked by this way of only playing NS maps that fit 6v6 during scrims, and in my opinion XP-Cagey is wrong when he says "who want to play a 12v12 map during a 6v6 scrim ? " : you should adapt to each map, this is Natural Selection. There should not be a pub mapping world and a scrim/clan mapping word. I guess these maps' authors will think diferrently and if your map was concerned, you would also. Not a great solidarity inhere, mappers, i don't appreciate that.
I guess bast was just designed to be 12v12, and seeing as most people seem to like it as it is then we shouldn't really mess with it. If it's good enough for the CPL, its good enough for me
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2004
like i said, damn french...
im a mapper, and the information that a week old league in france has poor judgement and outs 3 maps has no relavence on me. There are many other leagues, and they play most maps cause in ns, u have to adapt to each map. Not hide from it... It has nothing to with the fact that im in the US, my hostility does, heh, but it has to with the face that this week old league is 1 out of how many...
<!--QuoteBegin-oOTOo+May 11 2004, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (oOTOo @ May 11 2004, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not one of you seems to be choked by this way of only playing NS maps that fit 6v6 during scrims, and in my opinion XP-Cagey is wrong when he says "who want to play a 12v12 map during a 6v6 scrim ? " : you should adapt to each map, this is Natural Selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The key word there is "opinion"--a league with a different opinion removed maps from their rotation. If you want a league that adapts to every map, begin organizing one. The sky is not falling. Bast, Hera, and Ayumi aren't about to be abandoned by the entire community, either.
<!--QuoteBegin-"oOTOo+May 11, 2004, 07:16PM"--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("oOTOo @ May 11, 2004, 07:16PM")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not a great solidarity inhere, mappers, i don't appreciate that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I didn't realize the goal of the mapping community was to please you personally.
I'm locking this now--I've seen enough.
P. S. <!--QuoteBegin-"Insane+May 11, 2004, 02:03AM"--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("Insane @ May 11, 2004, 02:03AM")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mm, no, I was replying to Yoda's statement that Flayra should develop NS (not just maps, everything) without tournament in mind. If he were to do that, it would be disregarding a large portion of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doh -- sorry, that makes more sense; I'm glad I explicitly said I might be misunderstanding now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I may be misreading your comment, but are you saying maps that aren't well built for 6v6 tournament games indicate that Flayra (or the dev team in general) is disregarding a large part of the community, or the opposite?
I agree that balanced, entertaining play should be the first priority of any map that's going to be officially included with the game; there ought to be maps, however, that cater to large pubs (up to 16v16) as well as smaller teams.
As I've repeated recently, the dev team is making league viability (at the 6v6 level where it's actually being played) a major factor in everything we're doing. The ability to join a pub and play in large games is also important, so it's foolish to expect every map to play at its best with twelve people.
I've come very close to shutting this thread down--as people have pointed out, equating one league leaving some maps out of the official rotation (which I'd expect anyway--if it's targeted at 24 people, you don't want to play it with 12) with the death of those maps is rediculous. We've already heard from the Bast mapping team that they're working on balance, so it's doubly premature to call Bast dead.
However, the side discussion it's started is something I want to nip in the bud, so I've left it open.
Mm, no, I was replying to Yoda's statement that Flayra should develop NS (not just maps, everything) without tournament in mind. If he were to do that, it would be disregarding a large portion of the community.
It's not like these maps are dead... or even reduced in popularity in fact. There are plenty of pubs, clans, tournaments, and leagues that use them. If some 3-day-old league has decided not to play them, so what?
Also, I agree. What is this doing in the mapping section? It has no bearing or impact on these maps, despite how important oOTOo seems to think he is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why, but it really irritates me when you call france a 'far-off country'. There are a considerable amount of french servers so i can only assume there is a french player base as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS was developped in the US. I'm in Canada. By both counts, France, which is thousands of kilometers away, is a far-off country.
Don't get me wrong, I live in a province where everybody speaks french, I have nothing against France. It just really IS a far-off country to me. And NS.
I was trying to reinforce the idea that this is just one small tournament that doesn't really matter, so saying the maps are dead because it's dropped them is silly.
Not to act all moderator like, but I'd point out that the mapping forum is for mapping, which is developping maps and mapping techniques and related discussions. This'd be better off in the League and Tourny forum.
Hera has too many nodes. For the rest, the map size is not such a big deal.
-I think it is important to tell this news here because 1) it regards mappers before clans or leagues or whatever ; it's their maps, their hardjob and they may come here in mapping forum but not in another.
-The fact this happened in france or in planet mars is not the point and i'm always surprised when pple don't read the 1st post (especially the end paragraph). You think it will not happen in your own country ? I'm happy for you, but you could be wrong (<-- this news is only for mappers, not for scrimmers). Why do i think it could be wrong ? Because it happened here and there are no reasons it could not elsewhere ^^ This is "<b> un precedent</b>" (<- i don't know the word in english ; maybe it doesn't exist)
-This is an instructive news for mappers about how some clans are managing their maps to quit the scrimming scene.
-I want to precise that i was talking about a french league decision but i could have talked about some International Top Clans that would appreciate to sweep many maps too. Take care <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ps : I'm VERY surprised that none blabber mouth in this post asked THE question :" <b>Such a decision ? But omg ... [B]Why</b> ?[/b] " instead of "Blablabla, i'm from a lost island in pacific ocean sooooo this news is not for me" or "You are talking about you, neighboor, but i only care about me" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> You all seem (excepted a couple) to think it's a regular decision to sweep some real maps from competitions. Not one of you seems to be choked by this way of only playing NS maps that fit 6v6 during scrims, and in my opinion XP-Cagey is wrong when he says "who want to play a 12v12 map during a 6v6 scrim ? " : you should adapt to each map, this is Natural Selection. There should not be a pub mapping world and a scrim/clan mapping word. I guess these maps' authors will think diferrently and if your map was concerned, you would also. Not a great solidarity inhere, mappers, i don't appreciate that.
edit : ortho
If it's good enough for the CPL, its good enough for me
im a mapper, and the information that a week old league in france has poor judgement and outs 3 maps has no relavence on me. There are many other leagues, and they play most maps cause in ns, u have to adapt to each map. Not hide from it... It has nothing to with the fact that im in the US, my hostility does, heh, but it has to with the face that this week old league is 1 out of how many...
this should really be locked
The key word there is "opinion"--a league with a different opinion removed maps from their rotation. If you want a league that adapts to every map, begin organizing one. The sky is not falling. Bast, Hera, and Ayumi aren't about to be abandoned by the entire community, either.
<!--QuoteBegin-"oOTOo+May 11, 2004, 07:16PM"--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("oOTOo @ May 11, 2004, 07:16PM")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not a great solidarity inhere, mappers, i don't appreciate that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I didn't realize the goal of the mapping community was to please you personally.
I'm locking this now--I've seen enough.
P. S.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Insane+May 11, 2004, 02:03AM"--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("Insane @ May 11, 2004, 02:03AM")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mm, no, I was replying to Yoda's statement that Flayra should develop NS (not just maps, everything) without tournament in mind. If he were to do that, it would be disregarding a large portion of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doh -- sorry, that makes more sense; I'm glad I explicitly said I might be misunderstanding now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->