Knock Back Effects & Skulks Usefulness
kltower4
Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19855Members
Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19855Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Remove the Effect and Strengthen Skulks</div> The more I play NS, the more I want to vomit. NS is getting very stupid.
First off to start is the beginning of the game which is the most important part. In all the games I played, I keep on seeing ramboing marines. This is very annoying and at the end I see marines winning more than aliens. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I perfer the days of 1.04 where Skulks will own marines if the marines didn't stick together. (Please disregard the lone jp/hmg strategy.) Now I see a lot of marines going on their own, taking skulks down one by one as they come. At the same time, killing alien rts or capping marine rts. How they do this? EASY!!! The knockback effect and crack-jumping helps the fellow rambo marine. With Level 1 armour, the good old marines can get knock-back 2 times giving him the chance to shoot at his own range advantage. Worst of all, the skulks can't run there in time to deliver the finishing blow. Another stupid flaw in NS is when marines are jumping, somehow their hit boxes are hidden. There was once I jump on the marine, my first bite registered then when my second bite came in (my crosshair is death on him as he was doing his crack-jumping) it didn't register. It knocked the marine back... -.-
Things that can be done (Flayra LISTEN!!!)
*****************************
Marines
********
- Remove the Knock-back effect. (Discussed PLENTY OF TIME BUT NOT YET TAKEN ANY ACTION!!!) Since the marines have a range advantage, why give them another chance when they allowed skulks to get near them?
- Limit the Jumping Marines can do. What I'm suggesting here is jump is only used if needed eg. getting around fences. If a marines jumps, he can't jump agian in a certain time period.
- Nerf the damage of Level 0 weapons. Marines are suppose to stick together, not being a lone one-man-show fellow.
Aliens
*******
- Strenghten skulks back to what they were. HP of 70 and Armour of 20. This was the sweetest moments of being aliens during the days of Beta 3. Skulk > Single Marines.
- Widen the bite area for skulks. You can see on your HUD (Heads Up Display) that is filled with teeth so why can't I bite at the side of the screen? Doh~~~
- Maybe introduce a new function where when a skulk bites, the player can have the option of holding his bite so that the marine movement is reduced. Eg. like a dog grabing a robber and not letting go.
- BRING BACK REDEMPTION IS THE WAY IT WAS!!! You'll see why below.
Please note that I don't expect all the possible changes to be implemented. I just want certain changes I've mention above to take effect. Pick and Choose which changes above which will make the game more useful.
From the game I've analyzed, I see that aliens kept getting owned. Even with proper ambush, marines somehow have the advantage. This is why eg. 8 on 8 game.
Marine Team
*******************
1 X Commander
7 X Attacking Marine
Alien Team
*******************
3 X Gorges (THEY CAN'T EVEN DEFEND ON THEIR OWN SINCE REDEMPTION IS NERFED)
5 X Skulks
Currently with Beta 4. Rambo marines are very common combined with Knock-back and crack-jumping, they are leet. As you can see, marines have 7 attacking units where else Aliens have only 5 attacking units. What else can I say? Moreover, marines rts can at least defend on thier own. Wherelse, aliens rt just sits there to be knifed. OCs are practically useless as 3 LMG clips can finish it off. Aliens are always been nerf these days when Beta 3 -> Beta 4 and Beta 4 -> Beta 4a. Great, does this mean Aliens are going to get nerfed again in Beta 4b or Beta 5? Spoils the fun of being aliens then. MARINE STACKING HERE I COME!!! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First off to start is the beginning of the game which is the most important part. In all the games I played, I keep on seeing ramboing marines. This is very annoying and at the end I see marines winning more than aliens. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I perfer the days of 1.04 where Skulks will own marines if the marines didn't stick together. (Please disregard the lone jp/hmg strategy.) Now I see a lot of marines going on their own, taking skulks down one by one as they come. At the same time, killing alien rts or capping marine rts. How they do this? EASY!!! The knockback effect and crack-jumping helps the fellow rambo marine. With Level 1 armour, the good old marines can get knock-back 2 times giving him the chance to shoot at his own range advantage. Worst of all, the skulks can't run there in time to deliver the finishing blow. Another stupid flaw in NS is when marines are jumping, somehow their hit boxes are hidden. There was once I jump on the marine, my first bite registered then when my second bite came in (my crosshair is death on him as he was doing his crack-jumping) it didn't register. It knocked the marine back... -.-
Things that can be done (Flayra LISTEN!!!)
*****************************
Marines
********
- Remove the Knock-back effect. (Discussed PLENTY OF TIME BUT NOT YET TAKEN ANY ACTION!!!) Since the marines have a range advantage, why give them another chance when they allowed skulks to get near them?
- Limit the Jumping Marines can do. What I'm suggesting here is jump is only used if needed eg. getting around fences. If a marines jumps, he can't jump agian in a certain time period.
- Nerf the damage of Level 0 weapons. Marines are suppose to stick together, not being a lone one-man-show fellow.
Aliens
*******
- Strenghten skulks back to what they were. HP of 70 and Armour of 20. This was the sweetest moments of being aliens during the days of Beta 3. Skulk > Single Marines.
- Widen the bite area for skulks. You can see on your HUD (Heads Up Display) that is filled with teeth so why can't I bite at the side of the screen? Doh~~~
- Maybe introduce a new function where when a skulk bites, the player can have the option of holding his bite so that the marine movement is reduced. Eg. like a dog grabing a robber and not letting go.
- BRING BACK REDEMPTION IS THE WAY IT WAS!!! You'll see why below.
Please note that I don't expect all the possible changes to be implemented. I just want certain changes I've mention above to take effect. Pick and Choose which changes above which will make the game more useful.
From the game I've analyzed, I see that aliens kept getting owned. Even with proper ambush, marines somehow have the advantage. This is why eg. 8 on 8 game.
Marine Team
*******************
1 X Commander
7 X Attacking Marine
Alien Team
*******************
3 X Gorges (THEY CAN'T EVEN DEFEND ON THEIR OWN SINCE REDEMPTION IS NERFED)
5 X Skulks
Currently with Beta 4. Rambo marines are very common combined with Knock-back and crack-jumping, they are leet. As you can see, marines have 7 attacking units where else Aliens have only 5 attacking units. What else can I say? Moreover, marines rts can at least defend on thier own. Wherelse, aliens rt just sits there to be knifed. OCs are practically useless as 3 LMG clips can finish it off. Aliens are always been nerf these days when Beta 3 -> Beta 4 and Beta 4 -> Beta 4a. Great, does this mean Aliens are going to get nerfed again in Beta 4b or Beta 5? Spoils the fun of being aliens then. MARINE STACKING HERE I COME!!! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I remember when you commanded a game and won, you would get 50 billion "Gj comm !!1" remarks, now your lucky to get one unless you totally destroy the other team...
I don't know, NS has def. changed, some for the good and some for the bad
It's almost like we should bring back ns 1.04/2.01 as a mod just like they did with 1.3 for CS
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To be frank, OC's are completely worthless, i wouldn't build them if they cost 1 res if i were playing seriously. They could be so easily taken down singly by lmgs and shottys and even in groups by groups of marines. OC spam in Holoroom? Siege from cargo, you get turrets to protect that vanilla skulks can't kill as well as eleced tf and rt and you get holoroom. OC's don't even come into play for protecting anything but only accomplished marines wasting res. And you still lost holoroom. For a cheaper solution after adv armory all they need to do is get a gl.
Something needs to be changed with OC's, be it health or damage cost or any combination of the 3. Also the range bug needs to be fixed as well so marines can't lmg it down a long hall.
*sigh* I don't know why i voice all of my opinions because im sure almost none of them are even read by the dev team...sometimes i wonder if they even listen to most people...
its insane what knockback can do, it spoils the fun and (yes, i know: gameplay > realism <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) it is unrealistic.
if a skulks manages to get near a marine the marine shouldnt have the possibility to just jump back...
but as i see it that knockback as it is isnt intended anyways
the skulk itself is powerful enough, a slight boost of 10 armor might be okay but as i see it lone skulk> lone marine with even skills
I also feel that Alien bunny hopping should be removed, and the base speed of the gorge and skulk (and fade) increased by 20-30%
EDIT: knockback should stay tho.
I really think someone needs to start a topic like that in order for changes to take place. It's a free speaking world afterall.
Anyway, the reason I posted this is since the outcome of Beta 4. Aliens just plain suck. I always enjoy playing aliens becuz it's unique form all the other FPS (First Person Shooters) other than AvP. I've played alien games with most of them losing. NS is slowly becoming CS which I wish it will never be. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think it's a really good option for increasing skulks' effectiveness against leet marines. Plus in games with all noobs it wouldn't have the huge impact like skulk 70/20 would because noob marines don't take advantage of knockback anyway.
Good marines ruin games (I know because I do it) by wandering around the map owning everything that comes near with knockback-jumps and so forth. I think it would be a lot of fun for 3.0 b5 to try no knockback.
And people wonder why Flayra doesn't listen to their suggestions.....
Try making the request in a professional manner, try taking some time and gather some stats to make your case stronger.
Instead of "at the end I see marines winning more than aliens. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> "
Try, "I pulled the results from 3 servers and the results were that in classic rounds marines win 79% of the time." Your opinion doesn't hold any water, no-one's really does (except Flayras), provide stats, and additional information to back up your claim.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Things that can be done (Flayra LISTEN!!!)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, don't assume you know more than Flayra (thereby insulting him) and expect him to take what you have to say seriously. Make the request but leave out the arroagance. You don't have all the answers, your way isn't necesarily the right way.
You also haven't thought about any aspects of balance. How will making some or all of the combined changes to the game affect the game play? Work out some scenerios and present them.
Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, I'm really not. 90% of the posters need to put some additional time and effort into their posts.
Increase the chance Flayra will read your well-thought out post and perhaps make a note of the ideas you have.
Just a suggestion....
-Z
On a very positive note, I'm happy to see some formatting, this helps illustrate your points and reduces people's misconceptions.
As I said above, even with proper ambushes. Marines will still have the advantage with the knock-back and crack-jumping. Read my 1st post, thx. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And people wonder why Flayra doesn't listen to their suggestions.....
Try making the request in a professional manner, try taking some time and gather some stats to make your case stronger.
Instead of "at the end I see marines winning more than aliens. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> "
Try, "I pulled the results from 3 servers and the results were that in classic rounds marines win 79% of the time." Your opinion doesn't hold any water, no-one's really does (except Flayras), provide stats, and additional information to back up your claim.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Things that can be done (Flayra LISTEN!!!)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, don't assume you know more than Flayra (thereby insulting him) and expect him to take what you have to say seriously. Make the request but leave out the arroagance. You don't have all the answers, your way isn't necesarily the right way.
You also haven't thought about any aspects of balance. How will making some or all of the combined changes to the game affect the game play? Work out some scenerios and present them.
Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, I'm really not. 90% of the posters need to put some additional time and effort into their posts.
Increase the chance Flayra will read your well-thought out post and perhaps make a note of the ideas you have.
Just a suggestion....
-Z
On a very positive note, I'm happy to see some formatting, this helps illustrate your points and reduces people's misconceptions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL. Ok ok...
The reason I began with that statement is first to express how I felt about Beta 4a.
However, on the aspect of balance wise. It's kinda getting out of hand with marines wander on their own owning every skulk in sight.
Also about the changes, I don't really think all of them can be implemented. I'm just suggesting. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thx. Cheer~~~ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The problem is when fades come, marines have already Level 2 damage and Level 1 armour with shotguns or hmgs. Fade come, fade down. What I'm implying is that the beginning of the game is the most important. Marines are owning skulks whereby they can cap like almost 70%~80% of the rts in the map. (Even if aliens managed to down 1 rt, the comm will just send ONE yes ONE guy to recap it.) With this in mind, they can tech up very very fast. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
About the OCs, trust me. During the days of 1.04. OCs were less accurate but it was very deathly. Dealing the damage of 50hp. So any one-man-show marines will just die. Worst I've seen is a group of marines just taking over a roomful of OCs with just the LMG. How they do this? EASY!!! 3 LMG clips to down an OC and comm spamming meds/ammo. Let's see...
Ammo = 2 res
OC = 10 res
To down an OC = 3(Ammo) = 6 res. With this, 10 res OC down. Doesn't excactly sound right eh? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll try to record a demo to show you my points. Just wait guys!!!
About the fades, well your fades need to learn not dying. I know this is obvious but... yeah. Play it safe, don't take unnecessary risks. If there are shotguns and hmgs, do not charge towards them. Try to lure them to wherever, but whatever you do don't blink into a group of shotgunners and hmgers. Wait for skulk(and a lerk does wonders) backup.
As for the marines owning skulks, it's still very possible to comeback from that even if you have a bad start. If aliens somehow get the 2nd hive up, soon marines will be rtless and aliens will easily dominate the entire map.
About the fades, well your fades need to learn not dying. I know this is obvious but... yeah. Play it safe, don't take unnecessary risks. If there are shotguns and hmgs, do not charge towards them. Try to lure them to wherever, but whatever you do don't blink into a group of shotgunners and hmgers. Wait for skulk(and a lerk does wonders) backup.
As for the marines owning skulks, it's still very possible to comeback from that even if you have a bad start. If aliens somehow get the 2nd hive up, soon marines will be rtless and aliens will easily dominate the entire map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, I agree the point that OCs are not suppose to stop marines. However, I find OCs are not being very useful in slowing down marines since OCs die so easly. 3 LMG clips my friend. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i was playing a PUG,so when the hives are gone,you dont die
i was the last person alive,and was a lerk
the rines as jp shottied the hive,and it was stacked by smurfs
they come after me,im flying around,and he pulls out his knife so im like "Alright,ill be able to get atleast one kill before its over since this guy thinks he can knife me" i fly to get him when hes in the air,i get slapped with the knife,and go flying across the room,then he shoots me with shotty
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Best thing would be to weaken the LMG's and Shoty's cause they are most unfair especially against fade and onos.
But on the other side i would change the fade blinking at all cost, so that scripted blinking fades r no longer laming around the game.. thats really terrible and kills all fun ( most time that happens i change the server... ). <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
another point is (perhaps only i prefer that) that the game should not be shorten. I really prefer to play much longer on a good game ! perhaps u can make a mod of the mod like the co_maps where u get less res with each rt, so u dont get upgrades as quick as now and they are more usefull.
thx und please don't cout my mistakes <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Best thing would be to weaken the LMG's and Shoty's cause they are most unfair especially against fade and onos.
But on the other side i would change the fade blinking at all cost, so that scripted blinking fades r no longer laming around the game.. thats really terrible and kills all fun ( most time that happens i change the server... ). <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
another point is (perhaps only i prefer that) that the game should not be shorten. I really prefer to play much longer on a good game ! perhaps u can make a mod of the mod like the co_maps where u get less res with each rt, so u dont get upgrades as quick as now and they are more usefull.
thx und please don't cout my mistakes <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Point noted. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's why Zunni told me to have balance issues in mind.
OC's work great , try using more than 1 in a open area or somthing OC's have stopped marines being able to walk into and PG a hive more times than I care to imagine. skulks suffer slightly in the early game I agree, but that changes when the 2nd hive drops then the balance swings into the Aliens favour so it all ends up fair it just requires the aliens to build and defend there structures as they should have too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please note that I don't expect all the possible changes to be implemented. I just want certain changes I've mention above to take effect. Pick and Choose which changes above which will make the game more useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Removing knockback, jumpdodging AND improving skulks so much would be massive overkill. One thing at a time. I think we should be looking towards giving skulks the melee advantage back(no knockback or jumpdodging) and see how it works. If both of those are nerfed then there's no way skulks will need to be stronger. In 1.04, not only could marines do all that but they could bunnyhop backwards to boot... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I agree with the one thing at the time. That's why I said in my first post "THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE" not "THINGS THAT MUST BE DONE".
Sounds like you're playing with weak marines. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
your "rambo" rine isn't doing good cause of the game, he is doing good cause the skulks dont jump, its easy to hit a walking skulk.
always, even in clan matches, the aliens are struggling until fades.. then the game is evened..
bah, im just gonna stop before i say somethin wrong..
your "rambo" rine isn't doing good cause of the game, he is doing good cause the skulks dont jump, its easy to hit a walking skulk.
always, even in clan matches, the aliens are struggling until fades.. then the game is evened..
bah, im just gonna stop before i say somethin wrong.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I play in a server where skulks are bhoping my friend. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Jumping skulks are fun but if the marines jumps with you, knock-back will take advantage of things. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now what does it do? Adds on a little bit extra life. Regen is often more usefull for skulks than cara now! let alone for any other lifeform. Gorge is about the only thing to really benefit from carapace.
Also redemption should be un-nerfed. It still triggers on % health target, while as soon as your armour runs out your dead now, while it used to be that you kept armour until you died (unless you had cara, but then you didn't have redempt, or had been badly hurt and half-healed)
Change Redempt to trigger on % of max HP+AP*AF, not just on HP, it really is compleatly useless now. eg 3 hive onos has 700+600*3=2500 health, but redemption triggers on around 400 health left. If you have taken 2100 damage your not going to last the 1 second needed to redeem on 400 health! Redepmtion seriously needs a boost, as no-one uses it at all now.
Why boost Cara and Redept? Because everyone always gets regen now. Always. Aparat from the odd skulk or gorge. Make the game more interesting by making these other two upgrades usefull alternatives.
Please.
i find nothing wrong with ns but the hitboxes. everything else is adaption, learning whats what, and blah blah. I've never really understood it. the game is the game.