Special Pledge To The Flag
BaconTheory
Join Date: 2003-09-06 Member: 20615Members
Join Date: 2003-09-06 Member: 20615Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Read first, then discuss.</div> My friend who is an atheist and has some rather...pessimistic views of America came up with this pledge that goes like the pledge of allegience.
<i>I pledge defiance to the flag,
Of these untied states of america,
And to the republic for whom i can't stand,
One nation,
Under Bush,
With liberty and justice for some, not all</i>
How true do you think these statements are?
<i>I pledge defiance to the flag,
Of these untied states of america,
And to the republic for whom i can't stand,
One nation,
Under Bush,
With liberty and justice for some, not all</i>
How true do you think these statements are?
Comments
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Shouldn't it be <i>And to the republic for which i can't stand</i>?
It sounds very much like non-specific Bush bashing. While I think that Dubya shouldn't be president, there are reasons for that. I also acknowledge the fact that Bush didn't do it alone and that Bush is not solely responsible for the goings-on in the world, even if he did have a large part in it.
From a writer's perspective, I have no idea what it intended to achieve. Your buddy seems to have problems with America, but doesn't specify what those problems are and therefore fails to raise awareness of those problems. I know it's not a formal essay, but even as a witty expression it fails. It reads like he picked random antonyms and slapped them in there.
There's really nothing to designate as either true or false since it's mostly angry jibber-jabber.
Personally I recommend leaving to join the rest of Bush's strongest critics. Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, North Korea and Palestine come first to mind.
Well, lets see
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I pledge defiance to the flag,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not know your friend and thus I can not testify as to weather the fact that he defies the flag is true or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of these untied states of america,
And to the republic for whom i can't stand,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is true that this statement has terrible grammer, but it is false that your friend "can not stand" for the republic; he is chosing to not stand, no one is forcing him to not stand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One nation,
Under Bush,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an easy one. It is all but unarguably true that the United States of America is only one nation and that it runs under president Bush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With liberty and justice for some, not all<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This statment seems to be the only one that is actually up for open dispute as to its trueness. Hence I recomend for the remaider of this disscusion we focus primarily on the true/falseness of this statment and forget about the rest of the statements which I have already accurately adressed.
Personally I recommend leaving to join the rest of Bush's strongest critics. Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, North Korea and Palestine come first to mind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this ever becomes the USA's accepted national policy I firmly hope that china nukes the crap out of you. Even comunists have more intillectual freedom then the model of your prefered America. Just because a lot of tough idiots think a point is right doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Sorry for the double post, adding qoutes in an edit is a rediculous hassle.
I do not know your friend and thus I can not testify as to weather the fact that he defies the flag is true or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its pretty hard to defy a piece of cloth, as they usually aren't in the habbit of giving you anything to defy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With liberty and justice for some, not all<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunatly this is true. Just look at corporations, individuals within a corporation are rarely (ever?) charged with crimes that the corporation commits (under their guidence), and even when they are charged, rarely punished.
Sorry for the double post, adding qoutes in an edit is a rediculous hassle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If China see's fit to nuke Australia for an American national policy, then there's precious little I can do.
I know its cheap, I know its lame, but I cant resist it. You spelt intellectual wrong <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> I also acknowledge that that in no way detracts from any of your points - but its pretty funny <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am in no way suggesting that my American friends heave him out - I'm just saying that if he feels that strongly against his country, to the point where he would renounce his American citizenship (and that is exactly how I read "Defiance to the flag") - then no one is stopping him from leaving.
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Of course, anyone who dosen't agree with the United States policy must have something wrong with them, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, anyone who dosen't agree with the United States policy must have something wrong with them, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It's just that the pledge there in the first thread is just a directionless and rather useless experssion of generic teenageish political frustration, and as such serves no real purpose.
It's not that there's something <i>wrong</i> with him, it's that his pledge addresses no specific problems. I imagine that he's angry at Bush, but there's no real way to determine that. He simply said, "Under Bush." Which is true whether you like him or not. He did win the majority of the electoral college votes, and is therefore the constitutionally valid President of the United States.
I disagree with American policy quite a bit. Hell, even the part you quoted said, "America certainly has problems." However, the writer of the "pledge" doesn't address any of them. That is what's wrong with his tirade, not the fact that he disagrees with current U.S. policy.
permission to add to sig?
Anyway, I'd say his new pledge is ok;
it seems like he has a lot of generic teen angst, but most of it is true. I'm guessing that he can't back up the statements himself, but that doesn't mean they're not unsupportable by someone else.
Anyway the only thing I don't really agree with is "Under Bush." Factually, yes, the US is under Bush. but I don't think that's what he meant. Even though I dislike bush a whole lot, I realize he is not a dictator many take him to be. although he has considerable influence among the legislative branch, etc. but he's not a complete dictator. so that one statement is innacurate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nicholas Cage+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nicholas Cage)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't it seem like there's a lot of "I'm 16, I'm angry at my father syndrome"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully your friend will either A) learn to express his thoughts in a manner that allows for quality discussion, rather than just spouting mindless rhetoric, or B) grow up.
permission to add to sig? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
feel free Windel
<!--QuoteBegin-Edward.r2+May 31 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edward.r2 @ May 31 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Hopefully your friend will either A) learn to express his thoughts in a manner that allows for quality discussion, rather than just spouting mindless rhetoric, or B) grow up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get the impression that this particular pleadge was supposed to be an expression of thoughts intended to perpetrate quality discussion. It is more an expression of frustration over a percived state of political existance in the USA which may or may not be valid. Hence I recomend AGAIN, that we stop flaming the author of this pledge and disscuss the valididity of his feeling of frustration instead.
Personally I recommend leaving to join the rest of Bush's strongest critics. Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, North Korea and Palestine come first to mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this ever becomes the USA's accepted national policy I firmly hope that china nukes the crap out of you. Even comunists have more intillectual freedom then the model of your prefered America. Just because a lot of tough idiots think a point is right doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Sorry for the double post, adding qoutes in an edit is a rediculous hassle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you for real?
Why don't you go join our allied commie nation where you are free to speak your mind:
<img src='http://www.historywiz.com/images/china/tanks.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Come on, no one's stopping you
As for the main post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My friend who is an atheist and has some rather...pessimistic views of America came up with this pledge that goes like the pledge of allegience.
I pledge defiance to the flag,
Of these untied states of america,
And to the republic for whom i can't stand,
One nation,
Under Bush,
With liberty and justice for some, not all
How true do you think these statements are? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the first line is true, as he probably doesn't like our flag, he should go design his own.
Oh, and while he pays a visit in this god awful country, tell him not to drop out of school before he learns how to write.
thanks for posting in the... wrong thread?
Personally I recommend leaving to join the rest of Bush's strongest critics. Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, North Korea and Palestine come first to mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this ever becomes the USA's accepted national policy I firmly hope that china nukes the crap out of you. Even comunists have more intillectual freedom then the model of your prefered America. Just because a lot of tough idiots think a point is right doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Sorry for the double post, adding qoutes in an edit is a rediculous hassle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you for real?
Why don't you go join our allied commie nation where you are free to speak your mind: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kind of the whole point... In china you have very limited freedom, you can oppose the government, but only to a certian extent. If America were to kick out anyone (or expect them to leave) who has an opinon differnet from the president, then you would pretty much have the same freedoms as the chineese comunists.
Since America is supposed to be the defender of freedom and the land of the free, and that is one of the only reasons I do not currently seek it's destruction as a monopolistic empire, I hold to my previous statment.
permission to add to sig? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
feel free Windel
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comorn people - you cant do that. That statement was made out of a misunderstanding of what I was saying. To correctly edit that quote to retain context you would have to say
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If allowing those who feel strongly against the nation to leave ever becomes the USA's accepted national policy I firmly hope that china nukes the crap out of you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EDIT to further clarify - my statement was interpreted by swiftspear to be "If anyone opposes anything the Government says or does, they should be forcibly removed from the country. " He argues thats wrong, I agreed with him and explained what I actually meant, and jazz band plays on.....
Sorry to have painted it that way, but to me your statment implyed that people who opposed the actions of the president and had differing opinions from him should be expected to leave the country. I still find your statement strange because the fact that this person doesn't like the way that his country is run does not mean that he hates his country. The leaders of a country and the country itself are very different entities, expecially in a democracy in which the leaders are suseptible to change at a fairly rapid rate. To be a patriotic American, and to dissagree with americas political status are not mutually exlusive events.
Windel, I don't really care about the context, I agree that it is a funny quote. If anyone asks I'll be glad to explain it to them.
I made a badly worded statement that you understandably misinterpreted. It just seems a little weird to me that someone would like to use a quote generated from a misunderstanding like that.
Definance to the Flag is NOT defiance to the current US government. There is a reason that muslim fanatics burn your flag as well as Bush effigies (sp). They hate your country and everything it stands for. Your flag represents everything America claims to stand for - it is your national icon, not your government icon, thats the whitehouse.
I do not know your friend and thus I can not testify as to weather the fact that he defies the flag is true or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its pretty hard to defy a piece of cloth, as they usually aren't in the habbit of giving you anything to defy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the same token, it's pretty hard to ally yourself with a piece of cloth.
Oh yeah, tell your friend to replace "untied" with "divided". Sounds better.
Oh yeah (*2), I think the rest of it's a piece of c***, but that's just me.
I made a badly worded statement that you understandably misinterpreted. It just seems a little weird to me that someone would like to use a quote generated from a misunderstanding like that.
Definance to the Flag is NOT defiance to the current US government. There is a reason that muslim fanatics burn your flag as well as Bush effigies (sp). They hate your country and everything it stands for. Your flag represents everything America claims to stand for - it is your national icon, not your government icon, thats the whitehouse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, I can see how you could read it that way. But I honestly think the author is attempting to express frustration with something about the way America is being run rather than blanket the country with his statement. If you hate something about a place, and there is nothing that can be done by anyone to change it, you generally don't talk about it, you just leave. If this kid honestly hated America and didn't belive it could be reformed, he probably would have left before writing a poem. You don't protest because you hate something, you protest because you want something changed.
Assuming that's true, Swiftspear:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hopefully your friend will either A) learn to express his thoughts in a manner that allows for quality discussion, rather than just spouting mindless rhetoric, or B) grow up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->