Chainless Chambers, Take Two...

ThorStryker

The reason why I suggested my idea to this topic is because this topic is truely about making the alien team more diverse so there are more tactics to be used at hand. Currently, just unchaining the chambers is better than what it is now, but it just shows that it becomes nothing more than a 120res investment that would never flesh out. I took this idea from CoH actually, it conflicts with combat because combat allows you to select any skill you want in the same area. This is effectivly the same except the fact that you are limited by a low point value. But I'll stop hijacking this thread and create my own in S&I so no one will respond to it.

Arcadius

<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 1 2004, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 1 2004, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not like the game is perfectly balanced as it is, and if the balance was to be thrown off whack for the sake of fun I can live with that <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen, Forlorn! I couldn't agree more. The game is NOT truly balanced now. It has NEVER been truly balanced. I say screw balance for once as the changes to bring about balance never really pan out, and lets due something that should make this game a heck of a lot more interesting.

Haunted

Bump for Worthiness of Issue

eaglec

I've added the unchained chambers to ntfm. Anyone that wants to "try before you buy" should pop over and play a few games. (UK server)

Amazingly I think this is the first topic where Forlorn has said something I agree with! :o
<!--QuoteBegin-forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not like the game is perfectly balanced as it is, and if the balance was to be thrown off whack for the sake of fun I can live with that <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

SaltzBad

I'm all for it. I don't see how it will reduce teamwork - in competition you'll still want to carefully plan the ressources you get to spend on chambers. Maybe in the long run chamber prices, effects et cetera will need to be tweaked - but its definitely more interesting than the current 2rts/1hive/1dc gorge/2 fades thats the norm.

Olmy

<!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Jun 2 2004, 01:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Jun 2 2004, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey, i've got a great idea! they could have a closed beta test with the consties, PTs and vets..... oh wait.

...


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something of this magnitude could not last an open beta. ironically, they need the veteran clans to test this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah because their contribution to balancing 2.0 was incredibly significant /end rant.

Forlorn

<!--QuoteBegin-Edgecrusher+Jun 2 2004, 07:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Jun 2 2004, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Jun 2 2004, 01:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Jun 2 2004, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey, i've got a great idea!  they could have a closed beta test with the consties, PTs and vets..... oh wait. 

...


.....




something of this magnitude could not last an open beta.  ironically, they need the veteran clans to test this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah because their contribution to balancing 2.0 was incredibly significant /end rant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, vets never did much... they weren't listed to much in 1.1 PT'ing nor 2.1 PT'ing, unfortionately

CommunistWithAGun

Sad but true.



In this day in age in the life of NS I'd gladly replace balance for fun because Im having none of the later.

7Bistromath

I voted yes, but as I brought up in the Constie forum before I knew of this poll, I don't want to see them completely independent of each other. I believe that <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58503&hl=' target='_blank'>this system</a> I came up with before 3.0 would be much eaiser to balance. In case you're wondering, the reason I wasn't confident enough about it at the time to call it an actual suggestion is that I don't think it would've worked well in 2.01, when the topic was made. However, the way the chambers currently work, and since people are asking for them to be unchained anyway, I think this system would work quite well in 3.0.

N1Rampage

UNCHAIN THEM!!!!! <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->

That_Annoying_Kid

<!--QuoteBegin-MagiTek+May 31 2004, 05:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MagiTek @ May 31 2004, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As others have mentioned, this idea has been suggested many times. I myself made a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28860&hl=' target='_blank'>post</a> about it back in the 1.04 days, and I know others had done so even before that. It has the potential to greatly add to the variety of the early game and overall benefit NS. The problem is that at this point in NS's development, it may simply be too hard to implement such a large change.

If you were to unchain chambers right now, without any tweaking, marines would very likely get slaughtered every game. Can you imagine cloaked focus skulks during the opening minutes, regen fades later on, and never being able to attack a hive without the threat of aliens warping in via MCs? Pretty scary. Upgrade chambers have been balanced so that they are powerful individually; allowing multiple to be built right off the bat forces marines to counter every alien strat at once. It would take a ton of work to balance.

As it stands, no one is able to organize the necessary playtesting. Flayra is busy with Unknown Worlds Entertainment, the vet program is dissolved, the playtester program is without direction, and there aren't enough people able/willing to sort out the myriad opinions of the general community. Not to mention that there are a couple major balance issues that still need to be worked out before we start overhauling something that isn't exactly "broken".

So will this happen? Possibly, but don't get your hopes up. It would help if Flayra would state his position on this. If he hates it, it's dead in the water. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wonderfull, well thought out post


it's probably why your a PT

Trevelyan

<!--QuoteBegin-(e)kent+Jun 1 2004, 05:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Jun 1 2004, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just like "fixing" the knockback "bug," this will make playing marines a lot harder on an individual, tactical level.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh... you mean ramboing?

yea... I'm sure many will miss the ease of which one marine can take out a team of skulks. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->

e_Nadagast

I'd like to try anything at this point but clans will just put up 1 SC, 1 MC, and 3 DCs every game... (in the first few minutes anyway) It will be the same rut we are in now, but it'd probably make skulking more fun (aka you might not get murdelizedx999999 once they get armor1) so I'm for it.

BobTheJanitor

Since we've obviously lost the 2.0 way when 1 skulk > 1 marine was the general rule, it would at least be nice if 2 or 3 skulks > 1 marine was a standard rule. But come on, if one of those skulks isn't bugged you can usually kill them with one LMG clip. (Assuming they're not clever and actually ambush, but lets be honest, three skulks running down a hallway at you SHOULD kill you. And that's just not always the case.)

SaltzBad

Yeah, Skulks that are close enough to stroke your nipples really, really suck. Its not your fault he came that close, naw thats the Skulks fault. Lets punish him for it.

Edit :
As bob said. Doesn't really matter how bad you are, you can fit 2 dead Skulks into an LMG clip. And the room for clever ambushing just isn't always there.

Rue

MagiTek: I'm not going to quote your whole post here but just because the chambers are inchained will not stop cloaked focus skulks in the first few minutes

Any alien team can get cloaking as thier first upgrade so right now a focued skulk withing a SC cloak is possable.

And also remember that if a skulk wants regen and the cover of a SC cloak then the gorges have to decide

1. 3dc's
2. 2dc's, 1sc
3 3sc's

Remember aliens work to a tight res budget early game

SaltzBad

<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 2 2004, 04:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 2 2004, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to try anything at this point but clans will just put up 1 SC, 1 MC, and 3 DCs every game... (in the first few minutes anyway) It will be the same rut we are in now, but it'd probably make skulking more fun (aka you might not get murdelizedx999999 once they get armor1) so I'm for it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't see this before, and not to blatantly double post - but why would you throw down 3 DCs immediately in a clanmatch? It'd be more like trying to devise a system to get as much MC or SC for the earlygame and still be able to putup 3 DCs at 4 minutes.

But anyway, of course there will be some cookie-cutterism with current chambereffects - theres just no compelling reason to spend on 3 SCs.

e_Nadagast

You'd get the DCs at the normal time... right before the fades come out.

Zek

The compelling reason to spend res on SCs is their chamber effect. You don't just stack them up in a hive for upgrades like the other chambers. Marines can't afford to drop observatories all over the map or continously ping wherever the team goes, so being able to place them strategically around the map without being screwed over from lack of Ds would be reason enough to spend the res. I don't think it would necessarily be overpowered either since there aren't that many safe and effective places to put sensory, and since they go down so easily the aliens would have to be careful with them considering the limited early game res.

Forlorn

<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 2 2004, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 2 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since we've obviously lost the 2.0 way when 1 skulk > 1 marine was the general rule, it would at least be nice if 2 or 3 skulks > 1 marine was a standard rule. But come on, if one of those skulks isn't bugged you can usually kill them with one LMG clip. (Assuming they're not clever and actually ambush, but lets be honest, three skulks running down a hallway at you SHOULD kill you. And that's just not always the case.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 2.xx 1 marine was still far above and beyond 1 skulk boyeee

BobTheJanitor

The higher health and armor still made it a more decent matchup though. People can say what they will about fixed hitboxes making skulks 'hard to hit' but 3.0 skulks are just free kills.

SaltzBad

Cloaking is exactly why you only need one SC, Zek. The reduced cloaktime of higher levels isn't quite worth 20 res.

Zek

If we increase skulk HP again, any marine that gets caught by a skulk in close range(sometimes you have no choice, i.e. building a node under a vent) would be completely screwed. For every situation where a skulk has to close distance to the marines, there's also a situation where a skulk can jump you from 10 feet away and there's nothing you can do about it, and then of course there's leap. We can't balance both of them with simple HP changes. The only real solution to the skulk issue now that hitboxes are fixed, IMHO, is to give them easier upgrades. Upgrades costing 1 res and gesting maybe twice as fast as they do now would do wonders to improve skulks within reason.

Saltz: Um, yes, but the more sensories you put down the more areas can be covered by cloaking without need for the upgrade.

morphz

No harm in unchaining them to see what its like, hey, this is a beta version <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Licho

I would love to see it with combination of reduced upgrade costs. Even MC or SC upgrades for skulk might not be worth the current res cost.

Rue

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MC : Dropping a single MC allows the alien team to travel to the second hive when it comes under attack, and with FF on, they can basicly travel to it whenever they want..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is possable without unchained chambers, its just because MC's are never first yu dont see this early game

There is nothing to stop you from doing it right now at hive 2.

shenk

yay, i voted yes... and ffs REMOVE THAT COMBAT TIMELIMIT -_-

CutterJoe

<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Jun 2 2004, 05:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Jun 2 2004, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jun 2 2004, 03:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jun 2 2004, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-(e)kent+Jun 1 2004, 05:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Jun 1 2004, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just like "fixing" the knockback "bug," this will make playing marines a lot harder on an individual, tactical level.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh... you mean ramboing?

yea... I'm sure many will miss the ease of which one marine can take out a team of skulks. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what a stupid idea, letting a good marine kill bad skulks, shesh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I understand you correctly, It doesn't take much skill on a 'good' marine's side to jump and let the knockback propell you 15 meters away and let you kill the skulk or skulks that did it. However it takes quite a bit of skill for a skulk to close that ground again and finish the job.

BattleTech

It seem's like a logical way to get wrid of the DMS syndrome since 1.03 in NS. But, I'm not sure how balanced it would be especially early game. But, this is a beta and it's worth a try for one build. The thing I don't like is that alien's are able to plop down sensory chamber's, we all know sensory chamber's are the most powerful first chamber-- but the upgrade's aren't that great imho, whenever they wish without worrying about their team complaining. Also, being able to throw down movement chamber's whenever they wish could make it harder for those "sneak-attack" kill's on a building hive. Not cool if you find the whole alien team warping into your hive. Unchaining upgrade's seem's fine to me because movement chamber's aren't really important to Fade's because they can metabolize back their adrenaline.

<b>My vote: I don't care.
It's a beta.</b>

Olmy

If you don't care why did you say you would not mind seeing it in a beta? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->