moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 2 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 2 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He has also spent 27% of his term on vacation.<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15546-2003Aug2?language=printer' target='_blank'>source</a>. On basic principles I don't think someone who uses so little of his time as president should be given another go at it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers?
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 3 2004, 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 3 2004, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 2 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 2 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He has also spent 27% of his term on vacation.<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15546-2003Aug2?language=printer' target='_blank'>source</a>. On basic principles I don't think someone who uses so little of his time as president should be given another go at it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well obviously he has to rest often so he'll never have to worry about falling asleep in the middle of a crisis.
Normal workers can't take much time off work. Since when does the President get to decide his own vacation times? I say we fire him for not doing his duty.
Its really getting to be an ugly world :| <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, because we have benefited <i>sooooo</i> much from Iraq. Just admit we did a good thing by removing Saddam, and if we happen to get oil for it, all the better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you really think that the oil supplies in Iraq won't be exploited in the future? Or that the strategic position won't be used to our advantage? Or that Cheney won't be made for life now that he got his buddies at Haliburton a good deal in Iraq? We can use the excuse "We got rid of a brutal dictator!" all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that we didn't go into Iraq because of that. Why aren't we invading Vietnam? Libya? Hell, even Saudi Arabia has a brutal monarchy. Was getting rid of Saddam a good thing? Yes. Is it a valid excuse for invading Iraq? No.
Its really getting to be an ugly world :| <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, because we have benefited <i>sooooo</i> much from Iraq. Just admit we did a good thing by removing Saddam, and if we happen to get oil for it, all the better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I admit removing saddam was a great move. Everyday since I was a little boy I was afraid of him and feared for my life that he would come to my door and steal my TMNT action figures and burn down my house.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin-B33F+Jun 3 2004, 07:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (B33F @ Jun 3 2004, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 3 2004, 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 3 2004, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 2 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 2 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He has also spent 27% of his term on vacation.<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15546-2003Aug2?language=printer' target='_blank'>source</a>. On basic principles I don't think someone who uses so little of his time as president should be given another go at it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well obviously he has to rest often so he'll never have to worry about falling asleep in the middle of a crisis.
Normal workers can't take much time off work. Since when does the President get to decide his own vacation times? I say we fire him for not doing his duty. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, it ain't the first time <a href='http://www.awolbush.com/' target='_blank'>Bush went AWOL</a>. Or <a href='http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html' target='_blank'>didn't care about his country</a>. Last I knew, <a href='http://www.bushwhackedusa.com/awolpage.html' target='_blank'>deserters</a> aren't permitted to hold the office of President. Yet another reason he <a href='http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/awol/awol-bush.html' target='_blank'>shouldn't be there</a>. Or perhaps his <a href='http://www.progress.org/archive/drc12.htm' target='_blank'>cocaine</a> <a href='http://www.bushwatch.com/bushcoke.htm' target='_blank'>addiction</a> <a href='http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/bush_cocaine.HTM' target='_blank'>problem</a>?
Or maybe any of these other <a href='http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm' target='_blank'>skeletons in the closet</a>?
(It's a lot of links, a lot of evidence, and a lot of reasons bush is a raving smacktard. It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception, and string-pulling by Daddy to get him where he is today.)
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I admit removing saddam was a great move. Everyday since I was a little boy I was afraid of him and feared for my life that he would come to my door and steal my TMNT action figures and burn down my house. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hilarious how hundreds of thousands of little kids lived in fear that he or his men would come to their house, actually kill their mother instead of raping her this time, and shoot their big brother in the head like they did to daddy.
But with true socialist care for others - you mock their suffering, then have the gall to criticise the Americans for causing more while trying to alleviate it.
Carry on all you like about everything the Americans stand to gain out of this. I seem to remember a story about a man walking along the sea shore picking up starfish and throwing them back out into the ocean. People came along and laughed at him. "There are thousands of starfish here," they said "what difference do you possibly think you can make". He just laughed, picked up a starfish and hurled it seaward. "It made a difference to that one".
You could criticise that mans intentions (he's only doing it to get a personal kick out of it) - but that doesnt change the difference he made. This is why every setback to democracy in Iraq is met with almost cheers from our left leaning friends + media. What a Godawful disaster we would have if the Americans actually succeeded in setting up a successful Middle East democracy. What if all our wailing about how it was nasty to the Iraqi civilians ended up being the beginning of the best thing that ever happened to them. They would have nothing to thank the French for, nothing to thank the Germans for, and nothing to thank the peace protestors for. It would be a humiliation that would last for years. The left wing Vietnam.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years. (b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is similarily difficult to listen to any harsh criticism of the man, knowing that many in their blind hatred of him seem to leave reason, rationality and honesty at around about the level they claim Bush to be at.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited June 2004
That's well and good, Marine01. Bush was not in the reserves. He was in the officers' training college of the National Guard, training to fly a plane that was being phased out of active combat. Sweet little assignment from Daddy, when he scored in the 25th percentile.. the absolute lowest which is still able to pass.
Read through the links presented, Marine. They detail how and why he's a deserter, along with statements from his COs stating that they each were led to believe that he was at the other base, after a supposed transfer.
Funny ender as well. The problem is, we are presenting facts. You are resorting to faith in him, with no facts to prove that he is anything *but* a blithering idiot.
Defend the man with logic and facts, or concede the point.
(edit) Link to the <a href='http://www.awolbush.com/deserter.html' target='_blank'>specific portion of Texas state law regarding desertion from the state military forces</a>, if not the national. (/edit)
Those sites are claiming Bush guilty of desertion. That is NOT true. I thought I made that abundantly clear with
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously that didnt faze you, nor did it faze any of those sites accusing Bush of being a deserter
So I fetch more
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the author of these comments wont let facts get in the way of a good election year issue. The fact is that unless any of President Bush’s former Guard units were activated (called up for active duty) during the time he was a member and not showing up for drill, then he can’t by law be charged with or convicted of AWOL or desertion. If any the purported experts on this subject, (and I say purported experts, because they feel compelled to share with the nation their knowledge on this subject,) knew anything about how the Guard or reserves worked, then they would right now be looking for a rag to wipe the egg off their face. The Guard and reserves work much like any other government job. You don’t show up---you don’t get paid! If you don’t show up enough times---you get fired! Only when a Guard or reserve unit is called up for active duty, does the AWOL and desertion terms you are tossing a bought come into play under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If a person misses his required drills, there are numerious ways to make them up and all the evidence points to the fact that the President did just that. The Guard and reserves are very flexable when it comes to allowences for missing drill. The bottom line here is the system is set up to keep people motivated to stay in the Guard and reserves. The Guard and reserves work with people who want time off to go to school because ultimately the military gets smarter people in their ranks. Does the author of the above posting have his 1973 tax returns? I find it extremely funny that the Liberals in this country have found it extremely important that we examine our current President’s and potential presidential nominee’s military records. Why just 4 short years ago this conversation would have never happened. The then sitting President was where, “when it was his turn to fight for his country”? Oh-yea, in Europe protesting the war. What a patriot. And the then Democratic nominee, where was he when his country needed his service. As a USMC Officer for 16 years, having served the last 3 of those 16 as the senior active duty Officer in a reserve KC-130 squadron, having fought in both Afghanistan and Iraqi, I do know what I am talking about. For the 8 years of President Clinton’s term, we in the military were hearing from people like Mike Moore and James Ridgeway telling us it really was not all that important that your Commander and Chief had never served in our nations armed forces and now it is of critical importance that a “true warrior” like Kerry or Clark sit in the White House. Give me a break. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That specific link you posted there in your edit is what I read. And its deliberately attempting to decieve people about what President Bush was guilty of. Facts are not on its side, but that aint slowing it down. If you are NOT federalised, you CANNOT desert. Funny thing is - you accused me of not presenting facts immediately following me posting the very fact that rendered your claims of desertion false and deceptive.
The point is not conceded. Those who hate Bush will grab any mud they can and sling, and it doesnt have to be justified with the facts. Rabbid anti-Bush sentiment is propaganda. Lets hear from the master of propaganda before I retire for the night:
"The fundamental principle of all propaganda is the repetition of effective arguments, but theses arguments must not be too refined. Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible and <b>appeal to the emotions and instincts, not the intellect</b>. <b>Truth is unimportant</b> and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology, but <b>convenient lies must always be made credible</b>. <b>Hatred and contempt must be directed at particular individuals."</b> Joseph Goebbels
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Still waiting for your facts, Marine. Hand us a link to the portion of the law supporting your claim. I've already handed you four sites (and have plenty more) stating that he is a deserter. You should be able to find at least one resource to support your claim. Beyond that, your argument boils down to 'no he isn't!!'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Jun 4 2004, 03:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jun 4 2004, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I admit removing saddam was a great move. Everyday since I was a little boy I was afraid of him and feared for my life that he would come to my door and steal my TMNT action figures and burn down my house. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hilarious how hundreds of thousands of little kids lived in fear that he or his men would come to their house, actually kill their mother instead of raping her this time, and shoot their big brother in the head like they did to daddy.
But with true socialist care for others - you mock their suffering, then have the gall to criticise the Americans for causing more while trying to alleviate it.
Carry on all you like about everything the Americans stand to gain out of this. I seem to remember a story about a man walking along the sea shore picking up starfish and throwing them back out into the ocean. People came along and laughed at him. "There are thousands of starfish here," they said "what difference do you possibly think you can make". He just laughed, picked up a starfish and hurled it seaward. "It made a difference to that one".
You could criticise that mans intentions (he's only doing it to get a personal kick out of it) - but that doesnt change the difference he made. This is why every setback to democracy in Iraq is met with almost cheers from our left leaning friends + media. What a Godawful disaster we would have if the Americans actually succeeded in setting up a successful Middle East democracy. What if all our wailing about how it was nasty to the Iraqi civilians ended up being the beginning of the best thing that ever happened to them. They would have nothing to thank the French for, nothing to thank the Germans for, and nothing to thank the peace protestors for. It would be a humiliation that would last for years. The left wing Vietnam.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years. (b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is similarily difficult to listen to any harsh criticism of the man, knowing that many in their blind hatred of him seem to leave reason, rationality and honesty at around about the level they claim Bush to be at. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm getting really tired of everyone saying its FOR DEMOCRACY when true democracy hasn't been practiced in how long? People preach and preach its for a good cause, well, that starfish? Yeah the guy who tossed the starfish back to the ocean didn't kill a man to get there.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 4 2004, 05:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 4 2004, 05:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Jun 4 2004, 03:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jun 4 2004, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I admit removing saddam was a great move. Everyday since I was a little boy I was afraid of him and feared for my life that he would come to my door and steal my TMNT action figures and burn down my house. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hilarious how hundreds of thousands of little kids lived in fear that he or his men would come to their house, actually kill their mother instead of raping her this time, and shoot their big brother in the head like they did to daddy.
But with true socialist care for others - you mock their suffering, then have the gall to criticise the Americans for causing more while trying to alleviate it.
Carry on all you like about everything the Americans stand to gain out of this. I seem to remember a story about a man walking along the sea shore picking up starfish and throwing them back out into the ocean. People came along and laughed at him. "There are thousands of starfish here," they said "what difference do you possibly think you can make". He just laughed, picked up a starfish and hurled it seaward. "It made a difference to that one".
You could criticise that mans intentions (he's only doing it to get a personal kick out of it) - but that doesnt change the difference he made. This is why every setback to democracy in Iraq is met with almost cheers from our left leaning friends + media. What a Godawful disaster we would have if the Americans actually succeeded in setting up a successful Middle East democracy. What if all our wailing about how it was nasty to the Iraqi civilians ended up being the beginning of the best thing that ever happened to them. They would have nothing to thank the French for, nothing to thank the Germans for, and nothing to thank the peace protestors for. It would be a humiliation that would last for years. The left wing Vietnam.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years. (b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is similarily difficult to listen to any harsh criticism of the man, knowing that many in their blind hatred of him seem to leave reason, rationality and honesty at around about the level they claim Bush to be at. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm getting really tired of everyone saying its FOR DEMOCRACY when true democracy hasn't been practiced in how long? People preach and preach its for a good cause, well, that starfish? Yeah the guy who tossed the starfish back to the ocean didn't kill a man to get there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And what if you had to kill a starfish to save twenty?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so easy to defend I'm surprised you couldn't figure it out for yourself.
From your source:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bush receives daily intelligence briefings at the ranch and can meet with Cheney and the rest of his war cabinet by secure videoconference. White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that he does not think the president of the United States "ever gets a break," and said Bush continues to focus on work while in Texas. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean, normally he lives and is at the white house... not even his real home.
If you are to grade a person by them simply not working as long as they are at home and not in the office, then lets see...
I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and say you work eight hours a day, six on saturday, and take sundays off. This is a hard working American.
5 days x 8 hours = 40 hours on weekdays a week
52 weeks in a year x 40 hours worked in each week = 2080 hours per year
52 saturdays in a year x 6 hours for each = 312 hours a year worked on saturdays
Total hours worked = 2392 hours per year
Total hours you live in a year = 8736 hours per year
8736 - 2392 = 6344 hours you aren't working
6344 / 8736 = 72% of your time not spent on the job
And, according to your source moultano, even during the 27% of the time when Bush isn't at the white house, he is at once of his various ranches and houses, he is still making desicions and paperwork, so in reality the guy probably only gets a break for 20% of the year, which means he works his buttocks off.
So would you like me to dismiss your claim as ignorant, or uninformed? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks for showing me how hard of a worker Bush really is, Moultano, I'll remember this when I go vote at the polls this November <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT:
I really like how deceptive your source is, a perfect example of our liberal, partisan media:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A CBS News tally shows this is Bush's 26th presidential trip to Crawford. He has spent all or part of 166 days at the ranch or en route -- the equivalent of 51/2 months. When Bush's trips to Camp David and Kennebunkport, Maine, are added, according to the CBS figures, Bush has spent 250 full or partial days at his getaway spots -- 27 percent of his presidency so far. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice, how they say 250 days, but they do not mention that is 250 days out of 4 years, which is 250 days out of almost 1460 (that's 4 years in days).
And, like I show above, 27 percent seems like a big percent, but really is absmal and makes Bush look very good if you have ANY number sense.
It's his 26th presidential trip; LOL at those words, it makes it seem like this guy is always on vacation as the average american only takes 1 trip away from his house a year; of course since these are presidential trips you have to put them over 4 years which is 6.5 trips a year, and these are just trips away from the white house which means he is just going back to one of his various houses, and they aren't really true 'vacations', unless you consider a trip to your house a vacation. Sure, he may own a lot of property, but he's rich, and at least he isn't cocky enough to try and hide his wealth (unlike Kerry).
Oh, and the type should read 5 1/2 if I'm not mistaken.
And finally, notice how they mix in his 'getaway' spots with his ranches or his homes, places he would normally live at.
Man, this souce is the spinfactor++ ^ 5th power, typical media garbage.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I mean, normally he lives and is at the white house... not even his real home.
If you are to grade a person by them simply not working as long as they are at home and not in the office, then lets see...
I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and say you work eight hours a day, six on saturday, and take sundays off. This is a hard working American.
5 days x 8 hours = 40 hours on weekdays a week
52 weeks in a year x 40 hours worked in each week = 2080 hours per year
52 saturdays in a year x 6 hours for each = 312 hours a year worked on saturdays
Total hours worked = 2392 hours per year
Total hours you live in a year = 8736 hours per year
8736 - 2392 = 6344 hours you aren't working
6344 / 8736 = 72% of your time not spent on the job<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, this analysis is irrelelvant, because that 27% was referring to the number of days he works, not the number of hours. It is well documented that Bush takes the shortest workdays of any president in recent memory. <a href='http://www.sollyonline.com/content.cfm?copy=article&header=work&SID=86' target='_blank'>not the best source, but it will do</a>
Notice, how they say 250 days, but they do not mention that is 250 days out of 4 years, which is 250 days out of almost 1460 (that's 4 years in days).
And, like I show above, 27 percent seems like a big percent, but really is absmal and makes Bush look very good if you have ANY number sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, these numbers are far higher than normal. You might be interested to know that Bill Clinton took a total of 150 vacation days in his two terms. 250 in four years is not a lot compared to the average worker, but the president of the United States is not exactly an average worker. Compared to other presidents, this number of vacation days is rediculous.
Correction: The previous Bush also took a rediculous number of vacation days.
President Jimmy Carter (D) Georgia: 79 Days (over 1 term - 4 years)
President Ronald Reagan ® California: 335 days (over 2 terms - 8 years)
President George H. W. Bush ® Texas: 543 days (over 1 term - 4 years)
President William J. Clinton (D) Arkansas: 152 days (over 2 terms - 8 years)
President George W. Bush ® Texas: 250 days (as of Aug. '03)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First of all, this analysis is irrelelvant, because that 27% was referring to the number of days he works, not the number of hours. It is well documented that Bush takes the shortest workdays of any president in recent memory. I will post a source here when I find one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll do a day by day analysis sooner or later, maybe tommorrow or something I'm gonna be real busy soon.
Pleae subtract the number of days that he spent smoozing with foreign officials. I mean, they're including Camp David and trips to his ranch when visiting foreign dignitaries were there.... So yeah, lets not lump all of those together... It just makes it misleading.
And you're automatically labeling them all as vacation days... That there is an exageration and misleading as well.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Jun 4 2004, 08:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Jun 4 2004, 08:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pleae subtract the number of days that he spent smoozing with foreign officials. I mean, they're including Camp David and trips to his ranch when visiting foreign dignitaries were there.... So yeah, lets not lump all of those together... It just makes it misleading.
And you're automatically labeling them all as vacation days... That there is an exageration and misleading as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is a little misleading, but it needs to be done that way for consistency to compare to previous presidents.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Jun 4 2004, 05:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Jun 4 2004, 05:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pleae subtract the number of days that he spent smoozing with foreign officials. I mean, they're including Camp David and trips to his ranch when visiting foreign dignitaries were there.... So yeah, lets not lump all of those together... It just makes it misleading.
And you're automatically labeling them all as vacation days... That there is an exageration and misleading as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and re-add in the days when the schmoozing went badly because he forgot the names of said foreign officials. Or double 'em due to 'social mishandling'.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 4 2004, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 4 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is a little misleading, but it needs to be done that way for consistency to compare to previous presidents. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Remove such days from the stats or previous Presidents as well and then compare once again. Also, I'd like to know if those stated stats really do include such days.
And Talesin... That's a totally separate discussion and something that has no bearing on the current topic.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Jun 4 2004, 09:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Jun 4 2004, 09:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remove such days from the stats or previous Presidents as well and then compare once again. Also, I'd like to know if those stated stats really do include such days. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I can find more precise and documented numbers I'll do that.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Thought I would update, the current count on the number of bush's vacation days is 500 <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1190302,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1190302,00.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Jun 4 2004, 04:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Jun 4 2004, 04:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Still waiting for your facts, Marine. Hand us a link to the portion of the law supporting your claim. I've already handed you four sites (and have plenty more) stating that he is a deserter. You should be able to find at least one resource to support your claim. Beyond that, your argument boils down to 'no he isn't!!'.
Facts. Bring 'em. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I will do it for him since he is borrowing my post.
Here is a PDF file, pretty lengthy, describing policies on AWOL, desertion, and military personnel involved in civilian court.
I draw your attention to the third page under the applicability section
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Applicability. This regulation applies to Active Army, Army National Guard of the United States, and United States Army Reserve personnel <b>lawfully ordered to active duty or active duty for training under the provisions of title 10</b>, United States Code. This regulation is applicable during mobilization.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If am not mistaken, Bush's unit was never activated.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Jun 3 2004, 11:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Jun 3 2004, 11:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's just hold our judgment until the new government is in place, shall we? This administration's high level members don't exactly have a great track record for installing/supporting/monitoring foreign governments (remember, Saddam was one of their golden boys during the heyday of his 'despotic regime'). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice try taking all of this out of context. Communism was considered a greater evil than a tyrant in a small 3rd world nation. Think about it for a second: we can take away from any dicatator what we gave them, or even remove them from power; we could not remove communism from anywhere without war on equal grounds. Every third world dictator knew that they had to either be pro-Soviet or pro-American, otherwise they risked both sides trying to take them down, instead of just one.
We armed the Taliban because the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, and stopping Communism was more important at the time than anything Afghanistan could do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not out of context.
Then, the rationale was Communism. Now it's terrorism. That's besides the point, though.
I should note that <b>you're</b> the one taking it out of context-- the argument wasn't whether supporting these people were good or bad for the US, or whether or not it was ok to support a murderous dictator because his region was strategically important-- it was whether the Iraqi people should immediately be happier (and have more trust) with a US installed government than with Saddam Hussein.
Do you think the people who were raped, murdered, and tortured under Saddam's reign really give a **** about the 'bigger picture' for the United States? Do they care that they were helping to build a bulwark against Communism in the Middle East? No, they were probably a little more concerned with the fact that they were getting raped, murdered, and tortured.
I highly doubt that any of them died smiling and saying, 'I'm so excited that my horrifically painful death will serve a higher purpose for the country halfway across the world who thinks that the guy who just electrocuted me, lopped off my genitals and jammed them in my mouth isn't such a bad guy when you look at him in perspective!'.
So, should they be thrilled that many of the same people who supported Saddam for tactical reasons are now installing a new government? I mean, that's the message we've sent: "We don't care who governs you, and what he does, as long as he ostensibly supports our cause and serves some purpose in our foreign policy."
So, nice try, but <i>no</i>. This is about <i>their</i> perspective, not <b>ours</b>.
Edit: If anything, you've nicely <i>proved</i> my point. That we're not about installing a government that's good for the Iraqi people-- we have an excellent track record of installing/supporting a-holes specifically because they're strategically valuable to <i>us</i>, regardless of their conduct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anything, you've nicely proved my point. That we're not about installing a government that's good for the Iraqi people-- we have an excellent track record of installing/supporting a-holes specifically because they're strategically valuable to us, regardless of their conduct. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this may be true, I don't think the US would install someone like another Sadaam with the whole world watching. Especially when we have been bragging about how we "routed a brutal dictator" and "we are going to make Iraq free."
Just stumbled on this thread by chance and found it very interesting. Let me add my rant about the "legality" of the Iraq War from my european (and such limited) point of view.
There was a French and German plan of action proposed to UN just before the war that Saddam agreed on, that let a thouroughly search of WMDs in Iraq territory as well as a military occupation to inspect those weapons, some days before US declared war on Iraq. Bypassing UN decision process is different from putting a veto to it. Do you remember that Bush's administration threatened a commercial embargo to France if one of US'UN resolution about Iraq was vetoed by France? And what does US do some weeks after that? BYPASSING UN entirely, when Bush and his administration saw that it will be harder than he thought to convince UN military concil, especially when China and Russia hinted they were for the French-German solution. I am sure Nem will have other things to add on that, as i was told it made quite a fuss in Germany too.
Anyway, to come back to that "anyone but Bush", i can add that Bush had quite an horrible European foreign politics. He managed to lose support from France and Germany, even if all our countries are bounded by the blood spread many times together, as this D-day commeration will make us remember. But i agree it isnt as important for you US natives as Bush's economy project. It is just a point i wanted to raise.
Anyway, that thread was a fantastic read for an European. Thumbs up guys! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
One of your sources, Moultano, includes the hours for George Bush's work schedule so I'll do some numbers on it soon.
However, I'd just like to point out that this <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1190302,00.html' target='_blank'>source</a> is complete trash, because it doesn't even give you an IDEA of how they came up with 40%.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 4 2004, 02:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 4 2004, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One of your sources, Moultano, includes the hours for George Bush's work schedule so I'll do some numbers on it soon.
However, I'd just like to point out that this <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1190302,00.html' target='_blank'>source</a> is complete trash, because it doesn't even give you an IDEA of how they came up with 40%. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr Bush was on his 33rd visit to his ranch in Crawford, Texas, at the Easter weekend, where he has spent 233 days or almost eight months since his inauguration, according to a tally by CBS news. Add his 78 visits to Camp David and five to Kennebunkport, Maine, and he has spent all or part of 500 days out of the office while in office.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: In addition, though you may discover that Bush works more than the average american, he works a rediculous amount less than the average president.
Just because Bush is "on vacation" does not mean he’s not doing work. He has facilities set up at his ranch that allow him to do everything as if he were at the white house. If I were a foreign dignitary I would prefer a nice quiet ranch out west to discuss things rather then the stressful air of DC. Bush receives his daily briefings and has instant communication with his entire staff from his ranch. Don't assume he's doing nothing just because he’s not in the White House.
The whole "Bush is a raving idiot" line Talesin keeps pushing is a load of carp. For starters, recognize that you can't judge someone's intelligence by how they speak in public. Though his slip-ups are rather embarrassing, intelligence doesn't automatically mean you are an excellent orator.
More importantly, if you claim that Bush is mental or whatever, you also claim that basically 50.1% of the US is just as dumb or dumber than he is. He <u>is</u> the president, yes? <u>We</u> elected him. I'm still confused about what exactly happened with Florida, but even if he should have lost Florida he still got enough votes to make it look close - 50% of the population. So gj for saying half of America is retarded. He may be a fool, but if he is he sure fooled a lot of us, so his intelligence really shouldn't be an issue. Forget whatever else he's done, if he was a moron, he wouldn't be president.
Oh yeah, repeatedly calling someone a "raving smacktard" doesn't prove your point so much as it just portrays YOU as a raving liberal. Once again, gj.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 4 2004, 03:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 4 2004, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because Bush is "on vacation" does not mean he’s not doing work. He has facilities set up at his ranch that allow him to do everything as if he were at the white house. If I were a foreign dignitary I would prefer a nice quiet ranch out west to discuss things rather then the stressful air of DC. Bush receives his daily briefings and has instant communication with his entire staff from his ranch. Don't assume he's doing nothing just because he’s not in the White House. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regardless of how connected he is, no president is going to be as productive out back with a chainsaw in hand as he is in the white house. Half of those days are self-described "vacation," including a month long vacation just prior to September 11.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Jun 4 2004, 03:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Jun 4 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The whole "Bush is a raving idiot" line Talesin keeps pushing is a load of carp. For starters, recognize that you can't judge someone's intelligence by how they speak in public. Though his slip-ups are rather embarrassing, intelligence doesn't automatically mean you are an excellent orator.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is though, intelligence and the ability to communicate effectively are not exactly mutually exclusive either.
And not only that, but we're talking about the president of a country. Being able to speak well in public is rather important don't you think ? How can someone lead if they can't communicate ?
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 4 2004, 04:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 4 2004, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of how connected he is, no president is going to be as productive out back with a chainsaw in hand as he is in the white house. Half of those days are self-described "vacation," including a month long vacation just prior to September 11. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off the chainsaw thing was photo op showing the president clearing his land of brush, shrubs, etc...because of his forest thinning policy to prevent forest fires, nothing wrong with a person who follows through with his own policies. Also don't forget the president is largely a figure head, he does not need to be someone sitting at a computer screen drawing little boxes over soldiers and telling them where to go, he's not playing some RTS game that’s paused when he's on vacation. You should know by now that this president leaves allot of things for his staff to do, which in my opinion is a very good thing, because his staff is very talented.
Comments
On basic principles I don't think someone who uses so little of his time as president should be given another go at it.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers?
On basic principles I don't think someone who uses so little of his time as president should be given another go at it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well obviously he has to rest often so he'll never have to worry about falling asleep in the middle of a crisis.
Normal workers can't take much time off work. Since when does the President get to decide his own vacation times? I say we fire him for not doing his duty.
Its really getting to be an ugly world :| <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, because we have benefited <i>sooooo</i> much from Iraq. Just admit we did a good thing by removing Saddam, and if we happen to get oil for it, all the better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really think that the oil supplies in Iraq won't be exploited in the future? Or that the strategic position won't be used to our advantage? Or that Cheney won't be made for life now that he got his buddies at Haliburton a good deal in Iraq? We can use the excuse "We got rid of a brutal dictator!" all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that we didn't go into Iraq because of that. Why aren't we invading Vietnam? Libya? Hell, even Saudi Arabia has a brutal monarchy. Was getting rid of Saddam a good thing? Yes. Is it a valid excuse for invading Iraq? No.
Its really getting to be an ugly world :| <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, because we have benefited <i>sooooo</i> much from Iraq. Just admit we did a good thing by removing Saddam, and if we happen to get oil for it, all the better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I admit removing saddam was a great move. Everyday since I was a little boy I was afraid of him and feared for my life that he would come to my door and steal my TMNT action figures and burn down my house.
On basic principles I don't think someone who uses so little of his time as president should be given another go at it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well obviously he has to rest often so he'll never have to worry about falling asleep in the middle of a crisis.
Normal workers can't take much time off work. Since when does the President get to decide his own vacation times? I say we fire him for not doing his duty. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it ain't the first time <a href='http://www.awolbush.com/' target='_blank'>Bush went AWOL</a>. Or <a href='http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html' target='_blank'>didn't care about his country</a>. Last I knew, <a href='http://www.bushwhackedusa.com/awolpage.html' target='_blank'>deserters</a> aren't permitted to hold the office of President. Yet another reason he <a href='http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/awol/awol-bush.html' target='_blank'>shouldn't be there</a>.
Or perhaps his <a href='http://www.progress.org/archive/drc12.htm' target='_blank'>cocaine</a> <a href='http://www.bushwatch.com/bushcoke.htm' target='_blank'>addiction</a> <a href='http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/bush_cocaine.HTM' target='_blank'>problem</a>?
Or maybe any of these other <a href='http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm' target='_blank'>skeletons in the closet</a>?
(It's a lot of links, a lot of evidence, and a lot of reasons bush is a raving smacktard. It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception, and string-pulling by Daddy to get him where he is today.)
Hilarious how hundreds of thousands of little kids lived in fear that he or his men would come to their house, actually kill their mother instead of raping her this time, and shoot their big brother in the head like they did to daddy.
But with true socialist care for others - you mock their suffering, then have the gall to criticise the Americans for causing more while trying to alleviate it.
Carry on all you like about everything the Americans stand to gain out of this. I seem to remember a story about a man walking along the sea shore picking up starfish and throwing them back out into the ocean. People came along and laughed at him. "There are thousands of starfish here," they said "what difference do you possibly think you can make". He just laughed, picked up a starfish and hurled it seaward. "It made a difference to that one".
You could criticise that mans intentions (he's only doing it to get a personal kick out of it) - but that doesnt change the difference he made. This is why every setback to democracy in Iraq is met with almost cheers from our left leaning friends + media. What a Godawful disaster we would have if the Americans actually succeeded in setting up a successful Middle East democracy. What if all our wailing about how it was nasty to the Iraqi civilians ended up being the beginning of the best thing that ever happened to them. They would have nothing to thank the French for, nothing to thank the Germans for, and nothing to thank the peace protestors for. It would be a humiliation that would last for years. The left wing Vietnam.
As for desertion:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl85.htm
Maximum punishment.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is similarily difficult to listen to any harsh criticism of the man, knowing that many in their blind hatred of him seem to leave reason, rationality and honesty at around about the level they claim Bush to be at.
Read through the links presented, Marine. They detail how and why he's a deserter, along with statements from his COs stating that they each were led to believe that he was at the other base, after a supposed transfer.
Funny ender as well. The problem is, we are presenting facts. You are resorting to faith in him, with no facts to prove that he is anything *but* a blithering idiot.
Defend the man with logic and facts, or concede the point.
(edit) Link to the <a href='http://www.awolbush.com/deserter.html' target='_blank'>specific portion of Texas state law regarding desertion from the state military forces</a>, if not the national. (/edit)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously that didnt faze you, nor did it faze any of those sites accusing Bush of being a deserter
So I fetch more
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the author of these comments wont let facts get in the way of a good election year issue. The fact is that unless any of President Bush’s former Guard units were activated (called up for active duty) during the time he was a member and not showing up for drill, then he can’t by law be charged with or convicted of AWOL or desertion. If any the purported experts on this subject, (and I say purported experts, because they feel compelled to share with the nation their knowledge on this subject,) knew anything about how the Guard or reserves worked, then they would right now be looking for a rag to wipe the egg off their face. The Guard and reserves work much like any other government job. You don’t show up---you don’t get paid! If you don’t show up enough times---you get fired! Only when a Guard or reserve unit is called up for active duty, does the AWOL and desertion terms you are tossing a bought come into play under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If a person misses his required drills, there are numerious ways to make them up and all the evidence points to the fact that the President did just that. The Guard and reserves are very flexable when it comes to allowences for missing drill. The bottom line here is the system is set up to keep people motivated to stay in the Guard and reserves. The Guard and reserves work with people who want time off to go to school because ultimately the military gets smarter people in their ranks. Does the author of the above posting have his 1973 tax returns? I find it extremely funny that the Liberals in this country have found it extremely important that we examine our current President’s and potential presidential nominee’s military records. Why just 4 short years ago this conversation would have never happened. The then sitting President was where, “when it was his turn to fight for his country”? Oh-yea, in Europe protesting the war. What a patriot. And the then Democratic nominee, where was he when his country needed his service. As a USMC Officer for 16 years, having served the last 3 of those 16 as the senior active duty Officer in a reserve KC-130 squadron, having fought in both Afghanistan and Iraqi, I do know what I am talking about. For the 8 years of President Clinton’s term, we in the military were hearing from people like Mike Moore and James Ridgeway telling us it really was not all that important that your Commander and Chief had never served in our nations armed forces and now it is of critical importance that a “true warrior” like Kerry or Clark sit in the White House. Give me a break.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That specific link you posted there in your edit is what I read. And its deliberately attempting to decieve people about what President Bush was guilty of. Facts are not on its side, but that aint slowing it down. If you are NOT federalised, you CANNOT desert. Funny thing is - you accused me of not presenting facts immediately following me posting the very fact that rendered your claims of desertion false and deceptive.
The point is not conceded. Those who hate Bush will grab any mud they can and sling, and it doesnt have to be justified with the facts. Rabbid anti-Bush sentiment is propaganda. Lets hear from the master of propaganda before I retire for the night:
"The fundamental principle of all propaganda is the repetition of effective arguments, but theses arguments must not be too refined. Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible and <b>appeal to the emotions and instincts, not the intellect</b>. <b>Truth is unimportant</b> and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology, but <b>convenient lies must always be made credible</b>. <b>Hatred and contempt must be directed at particular individuals."</b>
Joseph Goebbels
Facts. Bring 'em.
Hilarious how hundreds of thousands of little kids lived in fear that he or his men would come to their house, actually kill their mother instead of raping her this time, and shoot their big brother in the head like they did to daddy.
But with true socialist care for others - you mock their suffering, then have the gall to criticise the Americans for causing more while trying to alleviate it.
Carry on all you like about everything the Americans stand to gain out of this. I seem to remember a story about a man walking along the sea shore picking up starfish and throwing them back out into the ocean. People came along and laughed at him. "There are thousands of starfish here," they said "what difference do you possibly think you can make". He just laughed, picked up a starfish and hurled it seaward. "It made a difference to that one".
You could criticise that mans intentions (he's only doing it to get a personal kick out of it) - but that doesnt change the difference he made. This is why every setback to democracy in Iraq is met with almost cheers from our left leaning friends + media. What a Godawful disaster we would have if the Americans actually succeeded in setting up a successful Middle East democracy. What if all our wailing about how it was nasty to the Iraqi civilians ended up being the beginning of the best thing that ever happened to them. They would have nothing to thank the French for, nothing to thank the Germans for, and nothing to thank the peace protestors for. It would be a humiliation that would last for years. The left wing Vietnam.
As for desertion:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl85.htm
Maximum punishment.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is similarily difficult to listen to any harsh criticism of the man, knowing that many in their blind hatred of him seem to leave reason, rationality and honesty at around about the level they claim Bush to be at. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm getting really tired of everyone saying its FOR DEMOCRACY when true democracy hasn't been practiced in how long? People preach and preach its for a good cause, well, that starfish? Yeah the guy who tossed the starfish back to the ocean didn't kill a man to get there.
Hilarious how hundreds of thousands of little kids lived in fear that he or his men would come to their house, actually kill their mother instead of raping her this time, and shoot their big brother in the head like they did to daddy.
But with true socialist care for others - you mock their suffering, then have the gall to criticise the Americans for causing more while trying to alleviate it.
Carry on all you like about everything the Americans stand to gain out of this. I seem to remember a story about a man walking along the sea shore picking up starfish and throwing them back out into the ocean. People came along and laughed at him. "There are thousands of starfish here," they said "what difference do you possibly think you can make". He just laughed, picked up a starfish and hurled it seaward. "It made a difference to that one".
You could criticise that mans intentions (he's only doing it to get a personal kick out of it) - but that doesnt change the difference he made. This is why every setback to democracy in Iraq is met with almost cheers from our left leaning friends + media. What a Godawful disaster we would have if the Americans actually succeeded in setting up a successful Middle East democracy. What if all our wailing about how it was nasty to the Iraqi civilians ended up being the beginning of the best thing that ever happened to them. They would have nothing to thank the French for, nothing to thank the Germans for, and nothing to thank the peace protestors for. It would be a humiliation that would last for years. The left wing Vietnam.
As for desertion:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl85.htm
Maximum punishment.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's difficult to lean toward seeing him as being intelligent in any regard after reading about all the lies, deception...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is similarily difficult to listen to any harsh criticism of the man, knowing that many in their blind hatred of him seem to leave reason, rationality and honesty at around about the level they claim Bush to be at. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm getting really tired of everyone saying its FOR DEMOCRACY when true democracy hasn't been practiced in how long? People preach and preach its for a good cause, well, that starfish? Yeah the guy who tossed the starfish back to the ocean didn't kill a man to get there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what if you had to kill a starfish to save twenty?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate to quote myself here, but I would really like to see a pro Bush person's defense against this. Any takers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so easy to defend I'm surprised you couldn't figure it out for yourself.
From your source:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bush receives daily intelligence briefings at the ranch and can meet with Cheney and the rest of his war cabinet by secure videoconference. White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that he does not think the president of the United States "ever gets a break," and said Bush continues to focus on work while in Texas.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean, normally he lives and is at the white house... not even his real home.
If you are to grade a person by them simply not working as long as they are at home and not in the office, then lets see...
I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and say you work eight hours a day, six on saturday, and take sundays off. This is a hard working American.
5 days x 8 hours = 40 hours on weekdays a week
52 weeks in a year x 40 hours worked in each week = 2080 hours per year
52 saturdays in a year x 6 hours for each = 312 hours a year worked on saturdays
Total hours worked = 2392 hours per year
Total hours you live in a year = 8736 hours per year
8736 - 2392 = 6344 hours you aren't working
6344 / 8736 = 72% of your time not spent on the job
And, according to your source moultano, even during the 27% of the time when Bush isn't at the white house, he is at once of his various ranches and houses, he is still making desicions and paperwork, so in reality the guy probably only gets a break for 20% of the year, which means he works his buttocks off.
So would you like me to dismiss your claim as ignorant, or uninformed? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks for showing me how hard of a worker Bush really is, Moultano, I'll remember this when I go vote at the polls this November <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT:
I really like how deceptive your source is, a perfect example of our liberal, partisan media:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A CBS News tally shows this is Bush's 26th presidential trip to Crawford. He has spent all or part of 166 days at the ranch or en route -- the equivalent of 51/2 months. When Bush's trips to Camp David and Kennebunkport, Maine, are added, according to the CBS figures, Bush has spent 250 full or partial days at his getaway spots -- 27 percent of his presidency so far. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice, how they say 250 days, but they do not mention that is 250 days out of 4 years, which is 250 days out of almost 1460 (that's 4 years in days).
And, like I show above, 27 percent seems like a big percent, but really is absmal and makes Bush look very good if you have ANY number sense.
It's his 26th presidential trip; LOL at those words, it makes it seem like this guy is always on vacation as the average american only takes 1 trip away from his house a year; of course since these are presidential trips you have to put them over 4 years which is 6.5 trips a year, and these are just trips away from the white house which means he is just going back to one of his various houses, and they aren't really true 'vacations', unless you consider a trip to your house a vacation. Sure, he may own a lot of property, but he's rich, and at least he isn't cocky enough to try and hide his wealth (unlike Kerry).
Oh, and the type should read 5 1/2 if I'm not mistaken.
And finally, notice how they mix in his 'getaway' spots with his ranches or his homes, places he would normally live at.
Man, this souce is the spinfactor++ ^ 5th power, typical media garbage.
EDIT^2:
- www.mrc.org ftw!
I mean, normally he lives and is at the white house... not even his real home.
If you are to grade a person by them simply not working as long as they are at home and not in the office, then lets see...
I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and say you work eight hours a day, six on saturday, and take sundays off. This is a hard working American.
5 days x 8 hours = 40 hours on weekdays a week
52 weeks in a year x 40 hours worked in each week = 2080 hours per year
52 saturdays in a year x 6 hours for each = 312 hours a year worked on saturdays
Total hours worked = 2392 hours per year
Total hours you live in a year = 8736 hours per year
8736 - 2392 = 6344 hours you aren't working
6344 / 8736 = 72% of your time not spent on the job<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, this analysis is irrelelvant, because that 27% was referring to the number of days he works, not the number of hours. It is well documented that Bush takes the shortest workdays of any president in recent memory. <a href='http://www.sollyonline.com/content.cfm?copy=article&header=work&SID=86' target='_blank'>not the best source, but it will do</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Notice, how they say 250 days, but they do not mention that is 250 days out of 4 years, which is 250 days out of almost 1460 (that's 4 years in days).
And, like I show above, 27 percent seems like a big percent, but really is absmal and makes Bush look very good if you have ANY number sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, these numbers are far higher than normal. You might be interested to know that Bill Clinton took a total of 150 vacation days in his two terms. 250 in four years is not a lot compared to the average worker, but the president of the United States is not exactly an average worker. Compared to other presidents, this number of vacation days is rediculous.
Correction: The previous Bush also took a rediculous number of vacation days.
President Jimmy Carter (D) Georgia:
79 Days (over 1 term - 4 years)
President Ronald Reagan ® California:
335 days (over 2 terms - 8 years)
President George H. W. Bush ® Texas:
543 days (over 1 term - 4 years)
President William J. Clinton (D) Arkansas:
152 days (over 2 terms - 8 years)
President George W. Bush ® Texas:
250 days (as of Aug. '03)
I'll do a day by day analysis sooner or later, maybe tommorrow or something I'm gonna be real busy soon.
And you're automatically labeling them all as vacation days... That there is an exageration and misleading as well.
And you're automatically labeling them all as vacation days... That there is an exageration and misleading as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a little misleading, but it needs to be done that way for consistency to compare to previous presidents.
And you're automatically labeling them all as vacation days... That there is an exageration and misleading as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...and re-add in the days when the schmoozing went badly because he forgot the names of said foreign officials. Or double 'em due to 'social mishandling'.
Remove such days from the stats or previous Presidents as well and then compare once again. Also, I'd like to know if those stated stats really do include such days.
And Talesin... That's a totally separate discussion and something that has no bearing on the current topic.
If I can find more precise and documented numbers I'll do that.
Facts. Bring 'em. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will do it for him since he is borrowing my post.
Here is a PDF file, pretty lengthy, describing policies on AWOL, desertion, and military personnel involved in civilian court.
<a href='https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/tagd/cmaoc/funeralhonors/r630_10.pdf' target='_blank'>Here</a>
I draw your attention to the third page under the applicability section
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Applicability.
This regulation applies to Active Army, Army National Guard of
the United States, and United States Army Reserve personnel <b>lawfully ordered to active duty or active duty for training under the provisions of title 10</b>, United States Code. This regulation is applicable during
mobilization.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If am not mistaken, Bush's unit was never activated.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice try taking all of this out of context. Communism was considered a greater evil than a tyrant in a small 3rd world nation. Think about it for a second: we can take away from any dicatator what we gave them, or even remove them from power; we could not remove communism from anywhere without war on equal grounds. Every third world dictator knew that they had to either be pro-Soviet or pro-American, otherwise they risked both sides trying to take them down, instead of just one.
We armed the Taliban because the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, and stopping Communism was more important at the time than anything Afghanistan could do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not out of context.
Then, the rationale was Communism. Now it's terrorism. That's besides the point, though.
I should note that <b>you're</b> the one taking it out of context-- the argument wasn't whether supporting these people were good or bad for the US, or whether or not it was ok to support a murderous dictator because his region was strategically important-- it was whether the Iraqi people should immediately be happier (and have more trust) with a US installed government than with Saddam Hussein.
Do you think the people who were raped, murdered, and tortured under Saddam's reign really give a **** about the 'bigger picture' for the United States? Do they care that they were helping to build a bulwark against Communism in the Middle East? No, they were probably a little more concerned with the fact that they were getting raped, murdered, and tortured.
I highly doubt that any of them died smiling and saying, 'I'm so excited that my horrifically painful death will serve a higher purpose for the country halfway across the world who thinks that the guy who just electrocuted me, lopped off my genitals and jammed them in my mouth isn't such a bad guy when you look at him in perspective!'.
So, should they be thrilled that many of the same people who supported Saddam for tactical reasons are now installing a new government? I mean, that's the message we've sent: "We don't care who governs you, and what he does, as long as he ostensibly supports our cause and serves some purpose in our foreign policy."
So, nice try, but <i>no</i>. This is about <i>their</i> perspective, not <b>ours</b>.
Edit: If anything, you've nicely <i>proved</i> my point. That we're not about installing a government that's good for the Iraqi people-- we have an excellent track record of installing/supporting a-holes specifically because they're strategically valuable to <i>us</i>, regardless of their conduct.
While this may be true, I don't think the US would install someone like another Sadaam with the whole world watching. Especially when we have been bragging about how we "routed a brutal dictator" and "we are going to make Iraq free."
...At least I hope not.
There was a French and German plan of action proposed to UN just before the war that Saddam agreed on, that let a thouroughly search of WMDs in Iraq territory as well as a military occupation to inspect those weapons, some days before US declared war on Iraq. Bypassing UN decision process is different from putting a veto to it. Do you remember that Bush's administration threatened a commercial embargo to France if one of US'UN resolution about Iraq was vetoed by France? And what does US do some weeks after that? BYPASSING UN entirely, when Bush and his administration saw that it will be harder than he thought to convince UN military concil, especially when China and Russia hinted they were for the French-German solution. I am sure Nem will have other things to add on that, as i was told it made quite a fuss in Germany too.
Anyway, to come back to that "anyone but Bush", i can add that Bush had quite an horrible European foreign politics. He managed to lose support from France and Germany, even if all our countries are bounded by the blood spread many times together, as this D-day commeration will make us remember. But i agree it isnt as important for you US natives as Bush's economy project. It is just a point i wanted to raise.
Anyway, that thread was a fantastic read for an European. Thumbs up guys! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, I'd just like to point out that this <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1190302,00.html' target='_blank'>source</a> is complete trash, because it doesn't even give you an IDEA of how they came up with 40%.
However, I'd just like to point out that this <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1190302,00.html' target='_blank'>source</a> is complete trash, because it doesn't even give you an IDEA of how they came up with 40%. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr Bush was on his 33rd visit to his ranch in Crawford, Texas, at the Easter weekend, where he has spent 233 days or almost eight months since his inauguration, according to a tally by CBS news. Add his 78 visits to Camp David and five to Kennebunkport, Maine, and he has spent all or part of 500 days out of the office while in office.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: In addition, though you may discover that Bush works more than the average american, he works a rediculous amount less than the average president.
More importantly, if you claim that Bush is mental or whatever, you also claim that basically 50.1% of the US is just as dumb or dumber than he is. He <u>is</u> the president, yes? <u>We</u> elected him. I'm still confused about what exactly happened with Florida, but even if he should have lost Florida he still got enough votes to make it look close - 50% of the population. So gj for saying half of America is retarded. He may be a fool, but if he is he sure fooled a lot of us, so his intelligence really shouldn't be an issue. Forget whatever else he's done, if he was a moron, he wouldn't be president.
Oh yeah, repeatedly calling someone a "raving smacktard" doesn't prove your point so much as it just portrays YOU as a raving liberal. Once again, gj.
Regardless of how connected he is, no president is going to be as productive out back with a chainsaw in hand as he is in the white house. Half of those days are self-described "vacation," including a month long vacation just prior to September 11.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is though, intelligence and the ability to communicate effectively are not exactly mutually exclusive either.
And not only that, but we're talking about the president of a country. Being able to speak well in public is rather important don't you think ? How can someone lead if they can't communicate ?
First off the chainsaw thing was photo op showing the president clearing his land of brush, shrubs, etc...because of his forest thinning policy to prevent forest fires, nothing wrong with a person who follows through with his own policies.
Also don't forget the president is largely a figure head, he does not need to be someone sitting at a computer screen drawing little boxes over soldiers and telling them where to go, he's not playing some RTS game that’s paused when he's on vacation. You should know by now that this president leaves allot of things for his staff to do, which in my opinion is a very good thing, because his staff is very talented.