A Look At Alien Vs Marine End Game
RedDragonGecko
Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10564Members
Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10564Members
So why is it soooo hard to finish off the marines at end game, yet when the marines are finishing off the aliens its soooo easy?
The FACT that fade and onos slot4 weapons are so broke it would make them(fades,onos) useless if they were slot1?
- Certainly doesn't help but no
The FACT that rine upgrades are instantaneous and alien upgrades take up to a minute(or so)?
- Again it doesn't help yet not the main reason(as I see it)
Or.... Is it the FACT that marines can seige the hive from safety while the aliens have to kill marine base point blank range, where the rines happen to be waiting for you?
- DING DING DING We have a winner Johnny!
Of course the other two reasons really are the icing on the cake.
So what do I suggest?
Congratulate the marines for recycling/f4ing?
- Um.... no
A change to bile bomb(BB)
BB is now a 3rd hive weapon(webs are moved to hive two) and can travel through walls. Structures would have to be parisited so the gorges would know where to aim. Also when the structure/s are hit the parasite blip blinks, so the gorge knows when his aim is correct (battleship anyone).
I know that BB flying through a wall doesn't make much sence but hey it can be explained easily. Nanites/Bacteria
(or maybe just fix hive3 weapons, but thats not very creative now is it? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
The FACT that fade and onos slot4 weapons are so broke it would make them(fades,onos) useless if they were slot1?
- Certainly doesn't help but no
The FACT that rine upgrades are instantaneous and alien upgrades take up to a minute(or so)?
- Again it doesn't help yet not the main reason(as I see it)
Or.... Is it the FACT that marines can seige the hive from safety while the aliens have to kill marine base point blank range, where the rines happen to be waiting for you?
- DING DING DING We have a winner Johnny!
Of course the other two reasons really are the icing on the cake.
So what do I suggest?
Congratulate the marines for recycling/f4ing?
- Um.... no
A change to bile bomb(BB)
BB is now a 3rd hive weapon(webs are moved to hive two) and can travel through walls. Structures would have to be parisited so the gorges would know where to aim. Also when the structure/s are hit the parasite blip blinks, so the gorge knows when his aim is correct (battleship anyone).
I know that BB flying through a wall doesn't make much sence but hey it can be explained easily. Nanites/Bacteria
(or maybe just fix hive3 weapons, but thats not very creative now is it? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Comments
I want meh babblers back :/
Siege is definitely not the only way marines end games, and they're still much quicker than aliens.
The reason is quite simple.
L0 marine > L0 skulk
L1-6 marine >> L0 skulk
Every alien that dies = L0 skulk
Every marine that dies = approx same level of marine
As the marines kill the top tier aliens, they only have to fight bottom tier aliens after that.
As aliens kill the top tier marines, they wind up fighting marines just under the top tier.
This is why I've suggested forcing the marines to upgrade by having to use the various structures they build, and each structure having an energy pool that gets used up and takes a while to refill once empty. Thus top-tier marines wind up being bottom tier marines as well, thus ending the game quicker when the aliens are dominating.
Despite the greater health and armor numbers, aliens fall far faster than marines due to ranged combat with weapons that far outclass aliens. Two weapons in particular even outclass aliens in melee (shotgun, Heavy machinegun).
The shotgun is understandable (not justified in it's power, but understandable), however the heavy machinegun pours out a devastating line fire without any sacrifices to target allocation speed. You can pick up this huge weapon, jump, fire, dodge, and spin like a top without any negative effect to accuracy or manuverability (though there is a slight decrease to running speed). The weapon renders the light machinegun obsolete as a close quarters rapid-fire weapon.
Maps are not very alien friendly by default, as long hallways and large open rooms with easy (pre-planned) siege locations are the norm.
The typical "Marine Start" has a single true chokepoint and a vent, both easily defended by the same single set of turrets. Though marine start is easily blocked in, the marines are the ones with a true siege weapon. With enough resources they can get out, no matter how much chamber spam.
The typical hive room is either cramped, or too large to defend. In either case the hive has at least 2 easily sealed off areas from which to siege. One of which inevitably cuts off the only route in or out of the hive in question. Aliens do not enjoy the luxury of a powerful siege weapon or any seige weapon at all until Hive 2 is up. Bile bomb is simply pathetic against most marine structures and requires a fragile gorge to enter the marines' deadly line of fire. While onos do blast damage and are available at 1 hive, they are too easily killed by marines in tight corners while blocked in by turrets.
My Suggested fixes: (Because I, like a lot of you, am an opinionated moron! Wooo!)
1. The mighty shotgun:
a.Decrease the number of "pellets" the shotgun fires.
Increase the power of each individual pellet so that the overall damage is not dramatically decreased.
Re-spread them randomly across a wider pattern.
Expected effect: Makes the shotgun less viable as a mid to long range weapon therefore making mixed arms a better choice than before.
Why it's not an overpowering change: The only change is range effectiveness. Power stays close to the same...besides...you don't hunt vicious critters with birdshot.
b.Shotguns are not normally armor peircing weapons, set them to do half damage to the heavily armored onos.
Expected effects: Will go a little way to re-justifying the Onos as a high-end evolution by making heavy machine guns and grenade launchers the weapons of choice against it.
Why it's not an overpowering change: The shotgun will still have a place for quick removal of chambers and lower tier alien lifeforms....besides...you don't hunt a rhino with a 12-gauge...
c. After firing rapidly in a reasonably short period of time have the marine grip his shoulder 10 seconds after the firing stops and say "Oww!"
Expected effect: Personal amusement.
Why it's not an overpowering change: ...Uhh
2. Heavy MachineGun
While Equipped on a:
a. Basic Marine
Since accuracy is not going to change, remove the ability to jump, put a cap on turning rate, and slow the player's movement speed while firing. When not firing, movement is normal (with the exception of the decrease in running speed due to weight).
b. Jetpack Marine
Same as basic marine while on the ground.
Holding such a heavy weapon should make the jetpack a bit more sluggish in the air.
c. Heavy Armor Marine
Cap the turning rate while firing, but not as low as a basic marine, as a HA marine has a bit of mechanical muscle for assistance. Do not slow movement speed while firing.
Expected effect: Smaller alien life forms will have a slighty better chance against Heavy machinegun weilding marines that are already engaged in firing at another target. Adds the element of "rock" to what has been just "paper and scissors" and gives more reason for marines to carry shotguns and LMGs. .
Why it's not an overpowering change: Low tier aliens can't take much punishment. The change would not make it any easier to close distance on the enemy, only make it easier to take advantage of being in close quarters with a enemy that is carrying a bulky weapon.
3. Bile bomb
x3 the damage and increase the AOE slightly.
x1.5 the adrenaline usage.
Expected effect: Bile bomb is more potent, in turn, gobs of marine structures are more managable.
Why it's not an overpowering change: The fragile gorge still has to do the bombing.
4. Web
Remove the universal map limit and implement an area limit, like that of the chambers.
Expected effect: More webbing used as web conservation is less of a hassle.
Why it's not an overpowering change: Because this simply allows web to be used more often.
5. Unchain the chambers!
Unchain the upgrade chambers.
Expected effect: More interesting alien team with less fights about "what should be dropped chamber first."
Why it's not an overpowering change: Aliens can still only evolve one new trait per hive built.
Lower almost every marine building HP in half (maybe even less) except maybe IP's. Lower recycle time to compensate, This allows aliens to send in a suicide fade or 2 to take down the arms lab, accomplishes what kwil wanted in converting marines back to l0. Also makes MS vulnerable to single aliens like hives are to single marines putting up sneak PG's.
Standing still biting structures for 2 minutes straight alone != fun. Thats my post for the year.
Gimp
Shotgun wise, I think lowering down the damage. I see a lot of games using a very lame technique.
1) Single marine sneak in hive while other marines keep the aliens busy at another place.
2) Comm place a Phase Gate and that marines build.
3) 2~4 ppl phase in armed with mines and shotguns.
4) Mine the phase gate and choking points.
5) All shoot hive.
6) Hive dies so fast before aliens can get back to hive.
7) Comm distress to save the team.
8) Repeat for another hive.
Do not allow shotguns to deal so much damage to structures. Half the damage. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Lower the costs (playtesting should show which amount fits best)
Increase the radius of bullet spread.
So SG Marines are forces to use HMG against Skulks (no early SG rush to end game), but still can use at low range and at higher range against onos or structures.
OC's/DC's and Hives are what I drop shotguns for, and the occasional fade.
About the rine structures - The most needed structures have the lowest HP as is.
The obs has 1700 and can be taken down in about 15 seconds, the arms lab has 2500 and can be taken in 20. How is that too long? If the commander even hesitates he loses the building. The buildings are fine as is, and bilebomb does 300 damage to structures as is, do the math, 1700 / 300 = 6 bilebombs, about 10 seconds worth, if you bilebomb twice and run away with celerity, thats 600 damage.
Think about your "improvements" before you shout out.
kltower - simple fix for your hive problem, if you have a problem at one hive, have someone relay through the other hives. It's not that hard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't change the damage dealt to structures from Shotguns... I hand out shotguns for that precise reason before I have an upgraded armory.
OC's/DC's and Hives are what I drop shotguns for, and the occasional fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um.. your reason for not changing is because it's change? That's just not a valid argument.
I don't know about that. I am really a pro-alien person right now (because aliens in classic are so very weak) but I don't think half shotty dmg to onos is right. I would like to see something like this in the form of reduced damage to onos from the front, due to his head plate (which is merely decorative currently). I would also like to see carapace be a useful onos upgrade. 750 armor from 600 isn't very much, considering the huge hitbox and the fact that marines tend to target the onos first. Something along the lines of an additional 400 armor (1000 total) might make carapace more attractive and allow an onos to assult the marine end-game turtle with more success.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
bilebomb only does 200 doesn't it?
bilebomb only does 200 doesn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, bile bomb does only 200 dmg. And how the gorge in this example safely ran straight into the back of the marine base where the obs and arbs lab is usually kept is beyond me.
bilebomb only does 200 doesn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does 200 blast damage which amounts to 400 damage to structures. He does have a point, if a skulk attacks the obs when no one is around, the comm has 3 options - hop out (absolutely horrible option) , beacon, or let it die. I however, agree that marine RT's should have lower life.
Start Game (Hive Waste)
*************
Aliens rush to cargo and secured it instantly. After many attacks from marines, they finally gave up and cap RR instead. Half the team gorged and gotten rts at Sat and Chem side. Marines had only RR and aliens practically have Sat, Cargo and Waste.
Mid Game
*************
-The battle was very intense at the Chem side, alien rts were taken down and marines cap their rts there. However, the alien team manage to take the marine rts down and recap it instantly.
-Another battle happened at the corrider connecting RR to Waste and Cargo. Marine kept on rushing to cargo trying to secure it. However, their attempts was futile.
-Fades were was very cooperative and that's how aliens manage to keep the map under control. Gorges did a good job at recaping lost rts.
-RR couldn't be taken down as they heavy turret farmed it.
-Fusion hive up.
Mid Game (Marines cheap attack Strategy)
*************
-Two marines sneaked into fusion hive. They built a phase gate and a lot of marines phased in.
-Hive was taken down in least than 10 seconds then comm distressed. Aliens tried to kill all of them but it was too late. The hive wasn't oc'd so this is understandable.
-Fusion hive was put back to build.
-While fuison was building, the marines did that same trick on Waste hive. They rushed it and the hive almost died. Luckly, their phase gate was outside so the condition was kept under control as their entrance to hive was bottle-necked. Waste hive is saved. Some skulks managed to take down advance armoury while hive was under attack.
-Two gorges then went to fusion and OC farm fusion hive. Fusion hive up and Sat hive was set to built.
-Skulks were to remain at Waste to look out for marines and fusion was considerably safe with ocs. Cargo was well OC'ed too.
Late Game
************
-While Fades were attacking RR and wanting to take it down. Marines somehow managed to get a phase gate up right inside the hive. Surprisingly, even with the amount of OCs. It just take two marines to get a fast phase gate in the OC'd hive.
-Fusion was taken down in 10 seconds and comm distressed agian. Aliens tried to defend but couldn't arrive in time. (Aliens was trying to take down RR)
-Sat hive was half built but again, marines use the same trick. Phase gate rush and distress. Sat hive down in an instant.
-Straight after Sat hive went down. Marines went to Waste and did the exact same thing. Waste hive down. GG!!!
Conclusion
***********
Marines can easily win with low amount of rts. Aliens has too much things to do. Even when the hive is OC'd, marines are still able to get a phase gate directly in front of the hive. Med spam I presume? The point is, aliens have to fight for victory from start to finish. Marines on the other hand, are much over powered and can easly scout the map independently.
Possible Fixs
***********
-Phase are not allow to be built near hives. Nanites!!!
-The firing power agianst hive must be reduced except for GL.
-Power of alien attacks become stronger and more damaging as they get more hives. It not fair for alien when marines can received additional hits with armour upgrades. One second or one last hit for aliens is crucial as they are meelee units.
Bacterium, you mean. Nanites help the marines, bacterium help the aliens.
This is possible thanks to a few things:
- The OC's Suck-much-assness
- The insane cost associated with them during higher player counts
- Marine's ability to live off of the res of a few nodes thanks to shotguns being the end-all-be-all weapon of mass destruction, which ever so happens to be the cheapest upgrade available to a marine team. enemy aliens in the area? drop 3 shotguns instead of those 2 HMGs. Structures? 2 shotguns > one GL unless your shooting at ALOT of structures... but even then there is always siege (covered by shotties dont forget).
Give the skulk 20 armor again, to start off with. Also, make default skulk speed slightly faster.
Make the lerk "bite" do more damage. Give lerk spikes again. Drop Primal Scream.
Increase damage by Bile Bomb to 300 per hit, but make it use 1.5x more energy. Increase Bile Bomb range by 50%, so that gorges can actually bile bomb without comitting suicide.
Leave fade as is.
Give Onos 400 more armor, with an additional 200 armor through carapace. That way its role as "meat shield" changes over to that of a "base destroyer."
Make OC's have slightly more hp, and make them only 7 res to build, instead of 10.
A hive that has 3 D chambers has a permanent armor coating, resulting in less damage done to it by guns/explosives. Thus, sieges become more critical to marine assaults.
When a hive is under attack, all aliens move 25% faster and attacks use 20% less energy.
Increase alien RT hp by 33%.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice thought about "when hive is under attack". This also should influence the respawn rate
Make the lerk "bite" do more damage. Give lerk spikes again. Drop Primal Scream.
Increase damage by Bile Bomb to 300 per hit, but make it use 1.5x more energy. Increase Bile Bomb range by 50%, so that gorges can actually bile bomb without comitting suicide.
Leave fade as is.
Give Onos 400 more armor, with an additional 200 armor through carapace. That way its role as "meat shield" changes over to that of a "base destroyer."
Make OC's have slightly more hp, and make them only 7 res to build, instead of 10.
A hive that has 3 D chambers has a permanent armor coating, resulting in less damage done to it by guns/explosives. Thus, sieges become more critical to marine assaults.
When a hive is under attack, all aliens move 25% faster and attacks use 20% less energy.
Increase alien RT hp by 33%. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the dev team were to instigate all of these changes the aliens would be so rediculously over powered it would be hard to imagine.
I agree with OC cost, and RT health increase, maybe even 20 armor for skulks, but that "hive under attack thing, removing bite and increasing onos that much seems complete overkill.
Personally I think the salvation of NS lies in a new class of creature for aliens. A throwaway unit like the shotty - a 5-10 res lerk or a crab, whatever. It would serve as a buffer, and as a huge part of the game, during that time when aliens are getting owned by wep 1 armor 1 rines. What makes the rines so overpowered nowadays is the ease with which they capture vital points in the first crucial minutes of the game. If you make them fight a little bit then you've got balance.
indeed it would be interesting to see a new alien lifeform that is a cheap warrior, but I'm almost positive it wont happen. (cheap, slightly weaker lerk with just bite or something would be fun) what MAY happen, and I hope does happen is boosts for skulks in hp, speed, armor, etc that comes with more hives.
Solution? So you're saying that letting one puny little alien disable an entire installation with no effort is a solution? That's what lerks will do if left alone. If a heavy shows up, it only takes one quick pistol clip to wax the little bugger if he's busy spiking and not worrying about enemies. Not to mention the fact that a lerk would take long enough to spike a heavy to death for the heavy to actually close with and knife the lerk.
No, the solution lies in making the onos effective in a different way. I do agree with your initial statement, and here's why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's nearly impossible to break a Marine turtle in a Hive room as long as they have a raised location. Sat Comm, Sub-Sector, Alpha Continuum, Equilibrium Control, Waste Handling, and even Viaduct are all Marine safe spots. Heavies standing on structures with HMGs / Grenades can lay waste to anything, even 10 Onos who MC in when a Hive is going up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well. Why is it so effective? There are two problems with tall bases. First, it requires a gorge to get closer to bilebomb, one of the most effective building-breakers in the game. Even with alien cover, that gorge can be taken out quickly.
The second problem is (obvoiusly) the Onos. The Onos has a difficult time making it to the top (example: pre-3.0 waste handling with the ladder of doom), and the Onos cannot use stomp on a higher elevation.
Why is stomp such a big deal? A couple of things. One well-positioned Onos can keep three or four heavies locked in position for a while. Another well-positioned Onos can pick apart the train one by one. Also, stomp is the perfect cover for Onos escapes. As an Onos turns and runs, he really doesn't turn and run most of the time. What the Onos normally does is run backwards while stomp spamming the marines into submission.
Well, this certainly makes a well-practiced Onos a deadly tool against the marines. But it just doesn't fit. Most of you have tried to chase Oni as heavies, just to be foiled by stomp, and wishing you could jump out of your boots to chase that dirtbag down. That feeling of frustration doesn't fit in a game. I think that the Onos needs to be re-tinkered so that he still has his deadly power against the marines, but he's no longer frustrating to the marines and he's no longer a simple meatsheild.
you are right in this point, saying that the onos is just a stomping meat shield <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But isn?t he supposed to be exactly that? Maybe not stomping (cause it was introduced with NS 2.0) but that he actually has a role as meatshield.
Stomping should be replaced with something else, your right, thats just frustrating. But what should the onos get instead?ok, thats little bit offtopic.
But isn´t he supposed to be exactly that? Maybe not stomping (cause it was introduced with NS 2.0) but that he actually has a role as meatshield.
Stomping should be replaced with something else, your right, thats just frustrating. But what should the onos get instead?ok, thats little bit offtopic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He does have a role as a meatsheild fairly often, but he's also supposed to be a base breaker. The Onos should be able to provide the backbone of the assault on a marine outpost.
Replacing the onos stomp with something else actually is on-topic. We're discussing endgame balance, right? Hive-two and hive-three abilities are part of the endgame balance.
to bad they could use an external program to change the turning speed
I've been trying to think of a way to give the onos the ability to take out heavies (other than the current, lame one-by-one devouring style) without having such a drastic early-game effect against lights. I believe that this may be the solution, as it takes even longer for other aliens.
The aliens' armor grow more effective as the hives are built, so why not their attacks, as well?
I think a Lerk tweak is a small step in the right direction.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice thought about "when hive is under attack". This also should influence the respawn rate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the attacks cost 20% less, but the movement speed should only be when the hive is dieing, also this should only be in an area of effect around the hive.
Play 100 of games, only low level without any upgrades to see which settings should be used for skulk vs. LA Marine with LMG to be 100 % balanced.
Then, calcute all upgrades properly. The Marines get with the first upgrade +10% weapon strength and +20% armor strength = This would even out with 1 hive skulks + lerks.
The second upgrade brings the marines to +20% weapon strength +40% Armor strength.
At the moment, the aliens get just a little higher value for the armor absorbtion which isn´t really viable.
Aliens need: To be able to kill the marines with 2 Bites (like they do with only 1 Hive to be balanced) and should be able to stand as many bullets as they did with only 1 Hive against weapon upgrade 1.
You know what I mean?
Lets take a look at the third hive: Marines will have all 3 upgrades: +30% weapon strength, +60% of armor . Aliens should be able to kill them at 3 Hives with only 2 bites. Marines should need again the same amount of ammo to kill the life forms as they needed with:
weapon 1 upgrade vs. hive 1 aliens
weapon 2 upgrade vs. hive 2 aliens
It´s an easy system. This creates the basic line of evolution. If one team is faster than the other, then it gets an huge advantage -> leads to faster ending games.
If marines decide to leave the second armor upgrade and focus on weapons, then they would have in 100% balanced games an advantage in offense, but would be crappy in defensive situations. If they decide to upgrade evenly, then they would be at the same state as the aliens are (in 100% balanced games).
This system excludes items and different alien skills. It´s only a basic idea, to give equally upgraded teams the same chances of winning.