PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WON is owned by Sierra. Valve no longer wants to use Sierra's services. All WON is doing at this point is holding everything back, because of the thick headed people who refuse to upgrade to steam because of one bad experience when it was in beta or early release. It is ENTIRELY WON's fault that the community is divided at this point in time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Steam works for me, so obviously it's perfect and works for everyone. Anyone who has any problems with it must be a terrorist. Anyone who uses WON is obviously lying about it not being perfect and are hurting the community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pulse+Jun 18 2004, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pulse @ Jun 18 2004, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WON is owned by Sierra. Valve no longer wants to use Sierra's services. All WON is doing at this point is holding everything back, because of the thick headed people who refuse to upgrade to steam because of one bad experience when it was in beta or early release. It is ENTIRELY WON's fault that the community is divided at this point in time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Steam works for me, so obviously it's perfect and works for everyone. Anyone who has any problems with it must be a terrorist. Anyone who uses WON is obviously lying about it not being perfect and are hurting the community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Congratulations, you missed the point as it flew miles above your head.
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
edited June 2004
Oh, so you don't think that WON should be shut down because it's dividing the community and steam works (for you)? Well then, you'd better reword your post, because that is the literal meaning of it.
Rule #3245 of internet discussion: if someone makes your viewpoint look bad, pretend that your post means something entirely different from what it says, and that your opponent couldn't figure out the hidden meaning.
Edit: I'm going to stop right now, because all this can lead to is a flamewar.
Too bad they couldnt just keep WON and Steam and let the user decide what they wanted to use <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
hm..
before i reformatted recently, steam could not and did not work on my computer.. so obviously i used won..
when i reformatted and could use steam, i found it to be so much easier.. minimizing is possible, and no crazy sound errors, and you can check server status easy w/o a 3rd party program, and you can auto-retry, and you can.... do all sorts of crap, really easily.
seems to me that steam is just... good. and easy. and i don't think we need won anymore.
But what about the people who still play NS 2.0? (like me) <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Seph Kimara+Jun 18 2004, 11:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Jun 18 2004, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Epidemic+Jun 18 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Jun 18 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then shut down Steam, Won is still as useful as Steam. There's a reaspm some people are still on Won. Admittedly it wont happen but it's not Won fault the community is splitted.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
You're kidding, right?
WON is owned by Sierra. Valve no longer wants to use Sierra's services. All WON is doing at this point is holding everything back, because of the thick headed people who refuse to upgrade to steam because of one bad experience when it was in beta or early release. It is ENTIRELY WON's fault that the community is divided at this point in time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps he missed the point, but you over-generalized. They are plenty of points well made to keep won, you obviously havent havent considered them. It's entirely steam fault the community is splitted, it came and took it from won which was the orginal well-working system, I have steam running, never had any problems with it and here I am still wanting Won back...
<!--QuoteBegin-Epidemic+Jun 18 2004, 11:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Jun 18 2004, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Seph Kimara+Jun 18 2004, 11:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Jun 18 2004, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Epidemic+Jun 18 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Jun 18 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then shut down Steam, Won is still as useful as Steam. There's a reaspm some people are still on Won. Admittedly it wont happen but it's not Won fault the community is splitted.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
You're kidding, right?
WON is owned by Sierra. Valve no longer wants to use Sierra's services. All WON is doing at this point is holding everything back, because of the thick headed people who refuse to upgrade to steam because of one bad experience when it was in beta or early release. It is ENTIRELY WON's fault that the community is divided at this point in time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps he missed the point, but you over-generalized. They are plenty of points well made to keep won, you obviously havent havent considered them. It's entirely steam fault the community is splitted, it came and took it from won which was the orginal well-working system, I have steam running, never had any problems with it and here I am still wanting Won back... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, I'll repeat that VALVE want to take over running HL multiplayer with their OWN auth system. NOT Sierra's WON system. The old setup wouldn't have worked with how they wanted to do it. So they made their own, and it works.
The only points to keep WON are, in order of how often I've heard them are
1) Steam is buggy/crashes often/hogs resources/thrashes hard drives/etc, AKA I-have-only-used-steam-once-in-my-life-which-was-back-when-it-was-newly-released-and-I-refuse-to-try-it-again - Pretty much all of these issues have since been resolved, and have been for a long time. Thick headed people refusing to try it again. I fail to see why, as all they're doing is holding everything up.
2)Cannot be bothered to go through the hassle of switching until they HAVE to - This is a HUGE reason why the community is divided. There are TFC servers I used to love playing on back on WON that I can't play on any more because they're refusing to switch until they need to because of the "hassle" it'll cause. I miss playing on them, but I'm not going to advocate keeping an obsolete system just to continue doing so.
3) Steam lacks offline LAN support - Again, this has been resolved.
4) Computer can't handle running steam - Can't really say much in response to this other than it's probably due time for you to upgrade a bit. Sucks yes, but such is life.
5) They're on 56k and the cache files are huge - Point taken, but seeing as Steam supports resumable downloads, it's kinda moot.
Steam can do everything WON once did, if not more. WON HL is obsolete. Whether or not you like WON or not is irrelevant. The point is Steam has now reached the point where the majority will have little to no trouble with it. Keeping WON around at this point is holding up the potential of the entire system, like a train where the driver is kind enough to wait for everyone to board and get adjusted, but some are refusing to because they don't like the carriage colours. Utterly pointless. The rest of the passengers are getting irate, and pretty soon the train will be leaving, and you either need to board or get left behind.
Well, Valve certainly don't want their players to play under WON that's for sure.
But having just <b>2</b> people creating this kind of software, and pleasing the company as a whole, is very much a hard task.
Which is why WON is still here. Valve simply still isn't happy with Steam.
Of course, everything has its up and downs. Heck if I remember what Talesin said, the start of WON was even worse than Steam's.
Valve also wants to have a little bit more control over their games which they couldn't do with WON. This would be one of the reasons why Steam is there. If anything, I think they should work harder on Steam a bit more, have Valve pleased with Steam, and finally shutdown WON.
I don't know why people are still attached to WON, but overall, they will all eventually have to migrate to Steam, wether they like it or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Jun 18 2004, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Jun 18 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkDude+Jun 18 2004, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkDude @ Jun 18 2004, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Has anybody else gotten insanely fast download speeds across Steam? I don't know if it's just me, but across Steam I ended up getting download speeds of close to 1.5MB/s, crazy. Lately I seemed to have been capped at 400KB/s, (I'm estimating that) but it was nice downloading an entire NS map in 20 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The speed is measured in kbits, not kbytes. What you usually see when you're downloading something is the speed in kbytes. Divide by 8 to see what 1500 Kb is in KB. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> (187.5 KBPS) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What!? 187KB/s!? Steam sucks and Valve sucks for making it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Yes... most of the people complaining about Steam's glitches weren't around for when WON was first getting off the ground.
Can't log in for an hour? BOO HOO. Try two <b>weeks</b> at a time, like when WON was first getting started. Validation errors? Try when WON banned HALF the userbase, because of a typo in the code!
Errors and incompatabilities? Try accidentally logging into a Mechwarrior 2 game, from Half-Life. (no, nothing happened, you just got scrambled garbage)
The fact of the matter is, everything that USED won excepting HL is dead. No one plays it any more excepting for nostalgia value. Sierra has moved on to a new, better auth system, but they HAVE to keep WON running for all the HL people who refuse to use the new stuff. The only people who *don't* want to shut it down are anti-Steamers... who never had to deal with WON in its 'growing pains' days.
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
Talesin: The big difference between WON and Steam problems is that the WON problems have been fixed over time, while many of Steam's problems still exist and are still being fixed. When Steam gets to the point that WON is right now (IE 90% of the playerbase can use it without major problems) it will be time to kill WON.
Steam will probably reach that state shortly after HL2 is released because more people will be able to work on it, but it's simply not ready to completely replace WON yet.
I've had very few problems with Steam (lately anyways). But I have to prefer it over WON if for nothing else than the game updates. I remember sitting in one of Gamespy's "lines" for 8 hours waiting to get an update, only to be kicked out minutes before my turn was up. Upon re-entering the line, it would be another 10 hours. That incident alone was enough to make me follow the ways of Steam faithfully and blindly.
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
Fileplanet is not the only place to get patches. Also, Steam doesn't even solve that problem, it just replaces it with a new one: overloaded content servers. I remember going for days with HL because steam couldn't update it. And unlike the old system, you can't just play the old version until you can get the patch, you <i>need</i> the latest version to play.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin-Pulse+Jun 18 2004, 07:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pulse @ Jun 18 2004, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Talesin: The big difference between WON and Steam problems is that the WON problems have been fixed over time, while many of Steam's problems still exist and are still being fixed. When Steam gets to the point that WON is right now (IE 90% of the playerbase can use it without major problems) it will be time to kill WON.
Steam will probably reach that state shortly after HL2 is released because more people will be able to work on it, but it's simply not ready to completely replace WON yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would suggest that Steam is already 80% of the way to where WON is now. I've not seen a <b>reasonable</b> machine (read: P-200s with no 3D accel card need not apply) which had a problem with actually running Steam; and I do have to deal with a number of gamers' systems, working as a network technician.
More often, I see people complaining about it, who have never installed it. They complain because it's something new they have to do; a minor inconvenience. I would say that yes... Steam won't work unless you take the time to install it. And in the case of the majority of complainers, that it's most likely that they haven't even tried.. or at least not taken the time to give it a chance.
Flipping the argument around of 'well it works for me'... I have the apparent stereotypical 'problem' machine for Steam, from the complaints I've read here and on the Steampowered forums. ATi graphics card, non-Intel, Linux NAT between it and the world. Only way I could get worse (or better, depending upon the complainer) would be to install Win98. I get a solid 100fps at 1600x1200, and can crank up to 6xFSAA and 16x aniso if I drop it to 1024x768. So if my machine uses all of these parts that have horrific problems for everyone else.. why am I seeing perfect performance? I truly doubt that I am a computing god. That stretching out my hand and saying, 'WORK, DAMMIT!!' made everything copacetic.
Human error is the most likely answer to any problem. PEBKAC Error id 10-T.
Comments
Steam works for me, so obviously it's perfect and works for everyone. Anyone who has any problems with it must be a terrorist. Anyone who uses WON is obviously lying about it not being perfect and are hurting the community.
Steam works for me, so obviously it's perfect and works for everyone. Anyone who has any problems with it must be a terrorist. Anyone who uses WON is obviously lying about it not being perfect and are hurting the community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Congratulations, you missed the point as it flew miles above your head.
Good day sir.
Rule #3245 of internet discussion: if someone makes your viewpoint look bad, pretend that your post means something entirely different from what it says, and that your opponent couldn't figure out the hidden meaning.
Edit: I'm going to stop right now, because all this can lead to is a flamewar.
before i reformatted recently, steam could not and did not work on my computer.. so obviously i used won..
when i reformatted and could use steam, i found it to be so much easier.. minimizing is possible, and no crazy sound errors, and you can check server status easy w/o a 3rd party program, and you can auto-retry, and you can.... do all sorts of crap, really easily.
seems to me that steam is just... good. and easy. and i don't think we need won anymore.
(2,000 POSTS, WOOHOO! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
...
You're kidding, right?
WON is owned by Sierra. Valve no longer wants to use Sierra's services. All WON is doing at this point is holding everything back, because of the thick headed people who refuse to upgrade to steam because of one bad experience when it was in beta or early release. It is ENTIRELY WON's fault that the community is divided at this point in time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps he missed the point, but you over-generalized. They are plenty of points well made to keep won, you obviously havent havent considered them. It's entirely steam fault the community is splitted, it came and took it from won which was the orginal well-working system, I have steam running, never had any problems with it and here I am still wanting Won back...
...
You're kidding, right?
WON is owned by Sierra. Valve no longer wants to use Sierra's services. All WON is doing at this point is holding everything back, because of the thick headed people who refuse to upgrade to steam because of one bad experience when it was in beta or early release. It is ENTIRELY WON's fault that the community is divided at this point in time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps he missed the point, but you over-generalized. They are plenty of points well made to keep won, you obviously havent havent considered them. It's entirely steam fault the community is splitted, it came and took it from won which was the orginal well-working system, I have steam running, never had any problems with it and here I am still wanting Won back... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I'll repeat that VALVE want to take over running HL multiplayer with their OWN auth system. NOT Sierra's WON system. The old setup wouldn't have worked with how they wanted to do it. So they made their own, and it works.
The only points to keep WON are, in order of how often I've heard them are
1) Steam is buggy/crashes often/hogs resources/thrashes hard drives/etc, AKA I-have-only-used-steam-once-in-my-life-which-was-back-when-it-was-newly-released-and-I-refuse-to-try-it-again - Pretty much all of these issues have since been resolved, and have been for a long time. Thick headed people refusing to try it again. I fail to see why, as all they're doing is holding everything up.
2)Cannot be bothered to go through the hassle of switching until they HAVE to - This is a HUGE reason why the community is divided. There are TFC servers I used to love playing on back on WON that I can't play on any more because they're refusing to switch until they need to because of the "hassle" it'll cause. I miss playing on them, but I'm not going to advocate keeping an obsolete system just to continue doing so.
3) Steam lacks offline LAN support - Again, this has been resolved.
4) Computer can't handle running steam - Can't really say much in response to this other than it's probably due time for you to upgrade a bit. Sucks yes, but such is life.
5) They're on 56k and the cache files are huge - Point taken, but seeing as Steam supports resumable downloads, it's kinda moot.
Steam can do everything WON once did, if not more. WON HL is obsolete. Whether or not you like WON or not is irrelevant. The point is Steam has now reached the point where the majority will have little to no trouble with it. Keeping WON around at this point is holding up the potential of the entire system, like a train where the driver is kind enough to wait for everyone to board and get adjusted, but some are refusing to because they don't like the carriage colours. Utterly pointless. The rest of the passengers are getting irate, and pretty soon the train will be leaving, and you either need to board or get left behind.
But having just <b>2</b> people creating this kind of software, and pleasing the company as a whole, is very much a hard task.
Which is why WON is still here. Valve simply still isn't happy with Steam.
Of course, everything has its up and downs. Heck if I remember what Talesin said, the start of WON was even worse than Steam's.
Valve also wants to have a little bit more control over their games which they couldn't do with WON. This would be one of the reasons why Steam is there. If anything, I think they should work harder on Steam a bit more, have Valve pleased with Steam, and finally shutdown WON.
I don't know why people are still attached to WON, but overall, they will all eventually have to migrate to Steam, wether they like it or not.
The speed is measured in kbits, not kbytes. What you usually see when you're downloading something is the speed in kbytes. Divide by 8 to see what 1500 Kb is in KB. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> (187.5 KBPS) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What!? 187KB/s!? Steam sucks and Valve sucks for making it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Can't log in for an hour? BOO HOO. Try two <b>weeks</b> at a time, like when WON was first getting started. Validation errors? Try when WON banned HALF the userbase, because of a typo in the code!
Errors and incompatabilities? Try accidentally logging into a Mechwarrior 2 game, from Half-Life. (no, nothing happened, you just got scrambled garbage)
The fact of the matter is, everything that USED won excepting HL is dead. No one plays it any more excepting for nostalgia value. Sierra has moved on to a new, better auth system, but they HAVE to keep WON running for all the HL people who refuse to use the new stuff. The only people who *don't* want to shut it down are anti-Steamers... who never had to deal with WON in its 'growing pains' days.
Steam will probably reach that state shortly after HL2 is released because more people will be able to work on it, but it's simply not ready to completely replace WON yet.
Steam will probably reach that state shortly after HL2 is released because more people will be able to work on it, but it's simply not ready to completely replace WON yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would suggest that Steam is already 80% of the way to where WON is now. I've not seen a <b>reasonable</b> machine (read: P-200s with no 3D accel card need not apply) which had a problem with actually running Steam; and I do have to deal with a number of gamers' systems, working as a network technician.
More often, I see people complaining about it, who have never installed it. They complain because it's something new they have to do; a minor inconvenience. I would say that yes... Steam won't work unless you take the time to install it. And in the case of the majority of complainers, that it's most likely that they haven't even tried.. or at least not taken the time to give it a chance.
Flipping the argument around of 'well it works for me'... I have the apparent stereotypical 'problem' machine for Steam, from the complaints I've read here and on the Steampowered forums. ATi graphics card, non-Intel, Linux NAT between it and the world. Only way I could get worse (or better, depending upon the complainer) would be to install Win98.
I get a solid 100fps at 1600x1200, and can crank up to 6xFSAA and 16x aniso if I drop it to 1024x768. So if my machine uses all of these parts that have horrific problems for everyone else.. why am I seeing perfect performance? I truly doubt that I am a computing god. That stretching out my hand and saying, 'WORK, DAMMIT!!' made everything copacetic.
Human error is the most likely answer to any problem. PEBKAC Error id 10-T.