Could Hl2 Beat Doom 3

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  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    wait wait, so doom3 is going to be on shelves august 4. right? hl2 is expecting to release its FIRST release candidate <u>sometime in august</u>. there is no possible way that hl2 will be finished, or probably even have an RC ready by the time doom3 is out.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Jul 19 2004, 08:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Jul 19 2004, 08:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jul 19 2004, 03:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jul 19 2004, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Jul 19 2004, 07:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jul 19 2004, 07:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is everyone saying that Half-Life 2 has a bigger fan base? How in the world would anyone know? DOOM is one of the "founding fathers" of first person shooters! I really would like to know how you folks can so adamantly claim that Half-Life 2 is going to outsell DOOM by massive amounts, when there is little to no evidence to support that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Because of a simple game called Counter-Strike.

    That game at this very moment as 8 MILLION + people playing it all over the world in all time zones.

    DOOM and DOOM 2 didn't have that many SALES, let alone that many people playing.

    Thus, when HL2 comes out, it will outsell DOOM3 because of the CSers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's not that great an idea to compare HL and Doom sales. HL has sold something over 11 million units or something since release, or some equally ridiculous number, but since HL's release, computers have been more common. I remember playing Doom and being the only kid i knew to own a computer. This was what, 1992 or something? Back then the amount of people who owned computers was a small fraction of that who own them today. If you put it into perspective, Doom probably did sell as many units in relation to how many PC owners there was back then as HL did in relation to however many computers are around these days. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That STILL doesn't allow as many people to play doom, and know about it.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So just because the CS community is big doesn't mean that Valve is going to sell a copy of Half-Life 2 to every single CS player.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That STILL doesn't address the fact that even if ONLY the CS players who participated in the hardware survey who can run source buy it, will STILL outnumber DOOM1 and 2's sales.

    But yeah, they aren't gonna get it out the door.
  • BeastBeast Armonkyi Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15731Members, Constellation
    How about Halo 2 beats them both? ^_^.....
    >.>
    <.<

    What? ^_^
  • jamespsxjamespsx Join Date: 2003-10-16 Member: 21708Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Beast+Jul 19 2004, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Jul 19 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about Halo 2 beats them both? ^_^.....
    >.>
    <.<

    What? ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    1 word... lol!
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-Beast+Jul 19 2004, 11:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Jul 19 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about Halo 2 beats them both? ^_^.....
    >.>
    <.<

    What? ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Something tells me quality wise, its gonna go

    1. DOOM3
    2. Halo 2
    3. Half-Life 2
    4. Stalker
    5. Far Cry


    ...yeah.
  • DragonMechDragonMech Join Date: 2003-09-19 Member: 21023Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Jul 19 2004, 12:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Jul 19 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Beast+Jul 19 2004, 11:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Jul 19 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about Halo 2 beats them both? ^_^.....
    >.>
    <.<

    What? ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Something tells me quality wise, its gonna go

    1. DOOM3
    2. Halo 2
    3. Half-Life 2
    4. Stalker
    5. Far Cry


    ...yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nah. You have to swap 1 & 2. Yeah. Halo 2 in the lead sounds good.
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    halo = blowage

    halo 2 = sequel to blowage.
  • DragonMechDragonMech Join Date: 2003-09-19 Member: 21023Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2004
    Removed at Nem's request.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited July 2004
    Oh please, let's leave that can of worms in front of the door. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking sympathetically upon Halo 2, but it's, accept it or don't, just not in the same race for now, if only because its XBox release (and <i>only</i> its XBox release) is being scheduled for November.
  • dr_ddr_d Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14979Members
    They made a sequel to Halo? Go figure.

    Doesn't matter which game outsells which game or which devolepment company has the bigger ****. I will own both games, and I will be playing HL2 and its mods years after I am done with Doom3. Does that mean I won't enjoy Doom3?......Yes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • TommyVercettiTommyVercetti Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13390Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    My table of wanty-ness/quality:
    1) Halo 2
    2) STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl
    3) Doom III
    4) Half-Life 2 (but I do want its mods a lot!)
    5) Far Cry - I already have it and it's damn good
  • booogerboooger Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22274Members
    In respect to the thread's original topic, no, it won't happen unless the space-time continuum suddenly spazzes out.
  • TenSixTenSix Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7932Members
    HL2 and Doom 3 are two TOTALLY different games in every concievable way shape and form. The only thing they have in common is that you use a gun, and you kill stuff. Thats it.

    Thus which one is released first is utterly irrelevent, even from a financial sales point, gamers who purchase Doom 3 are just as likely to purchase HL2. Its probably better they arent released simultaniously, giving time folks to get their next $50 together.
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-TenSix+Jul 19 2004, 06:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TenSix @ Jul 19 2004, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HL2 and Doom 3 are two TOTALLY different games in every concievable way shape and form. The only thing they have in common is that you use a gun, and you kill stuff. Thats it.

    Thus which one is released first is utterly irrelevent, even from a financial sales point, gamers who purchase Doom 3 are just as likely to purchase HL2. Its probably better they arent released simultaniously, giving time folks to get their next $50 together. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, they are also both touted as gigantic advances in technology bringing PC games closer to real life graphics quality.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    I don't think HL2 is being touted as that, graphically. Other areas yes, but if they think they're #1 in graphics they are kidding themselves.

    I'm not saying its ugly. its not. Its freaking beautiful. But the graphics aren't as advanced as DOOM3 or STALKER or hell I'd go so far as to say Far Cry and Painkiller.
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20284Members
    Doom3 isn't really as great looking as it could be either. Everything's just a liiiitttle bit too shiny. That plasticy "hey I'm bumpmapped" feel. Though I do have to say after seeing it in motion, that the screenshots do NO justice to the game whatsoever.

    Some levels in Painkiller do (in my opinion) look better than what I've seen of Half Life 2 though. Painkiller is a thing of beauty.
  • TommyVercettiTommyVercetti Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13390Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Doom III will be fun, but I have a feeling that the mods for Half-Life 2 will be my future mutiplayer favorites, like NS 2.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited July 2004
    Gonna disagree with you there, DOOM. DOOM3's big step over HL2 is its lighting effects. HL2 sacrifices a little in lighting - pre-rendered lighting on levels, for one (similar to HL1's lighting), though of course dynamic lights I'm sure will play a larger part.

    However, HL2 is really pushing DX9's ability to portray a realistic-looking world... overbrightening effects, realistic reflective behavior, huge outdoor environments, etc.

    DOOManiac's right in some respects, though -- one of the biggest things HL2's pushing is not its visuals but its world construction - most notably, its "material" system. The fact that texturing something with a wood texture automatically makes it behave like wood in every respect, from reactions to bullets/explosives to collisions with other objects and reactions - sound, breakage, etc.

    We probably all saw the HL2 video where the player used the gravity gun to fire saw blades. They beheaded zombies and stuck into wooden walls... how much do you want to bet, though, that the blade would have sparked violently against a metal wall before clattering to the ground, rather than sticking into it? That's the kind of detail you're going to get in HL2.

    I have a feeling that DOOM3 will be a visually beautiful experience, but will feel slightly more antiseptic than HL2 -- you won't be able to react with as much of the world.

    However, I have to say I hope *both* games take cues from games like Chronicles of Riddick and Thief 3, and attach the player camera to a real model.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited July 2004
    Of course HL2 is going to pwn DOOM3 as far as mods go. I mean Valve would have to seriously screw things up for that not to happen. The HL SDK is so much easier to work with than to Carmack's mish-mash of code that, while execute insanely freaking fast and is optimized beyong normal human comprehension, is hard to work with.

    [edit]
    And coil, tahnk you for once again saying what I am trying to say in much more fancier words words than I am capable of. :P

    Though I disagree that the lack of 100% per-pixel dynamic lighting is not a big deal. I really think it is a core technology for the future of all gaming. Within a few years people are going to go "what do you mean it isn't isn't lit completely dynamically" in the same way we would go "what do you mean it doesn't have stereo sound?"

    And its not just fancy graphics. Dynamic lighting effects the mood of the game itself. Things you can't see make a game scarier and more realistic. There's more mystery to it. More suprise. It effects how you play the game.
    [/edit]
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Jul 19 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Jul 19 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course HL2 is going to pwn DOOM3 as far as mods go. I mean Valve would have to seriously screw things up for that not to happen. The HL SDK is so much easier to work with than to Carmack's mish-mash of code that, while execute insanely freaking fast and is optimized beyong normal human comprehension, is hard to work with.

    [edit]
    And coil, tahnk you for once again saying what I am trying to say in much more fancier words words than I am capable of. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Though I disagree that the lack of 100% per-pixel dynamic lighting is not a big deal. I really think it is a core technology for the future of all gaming. Within a few years people are going to go "what do you mean it isn't isn't lit completely dynamically" in the same way we would go "what do you mean it doesn't have stereo sound?"

    And its not just fancy graphics. Dynamic lighting effects the mood of the game itself. Things you can't see make a game scarier and more realistic. There's more mystery to it. More suprise. It effects how you play the game.
    [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And I agree.

    The thing is, NOT having this lighting system is going to hurt HL2's mod development. Why? No more "Scary" mods. Or at least none that can be done with the absolute "OH MY GAWD I'M GONNA DIE" factor that DOOM3 has.

    To me, HL2 will be a great mod venture. I'm willing to bet a million dollars the best game of all time from now till 10 years from now will be a mod on that engine(just like how half-life has Natural Selection, to be honest.)

    But between DOOM3 and HL2, DOOM3 seems to be the one that will make it obvious its pushing the genre, while HL2s genere pushing will be a little bit less...sudden.
  • DefianceDefiance Join Date: 2003-12-01 Member: 23847Members
    It's probably already been posted in this topic but oh well.

    Doom 3 - 8/3/04 release date.

    Turn off your lights and grab some diapers... you'll need em.

    Anyway.

    I'm buying Doom 3 the day it comes out, given I can get my new computer to finally work without any BS. Both games look ******* incredible, and I can't wait. Doom3 is going to be one of those games that you can really get into, just turn off the lights and crank up the sound... get ready for some scary ****. I think it's going to have a better single player experience then multiplayer, but then again, who knows, both could be good, one could suck, we'll have to wait and see.

    Half-Life 2 is well... HL2. I'm more "ant-c" about this game then Doom3... Counter-Strike Source... NS2 (if it actually gets developed...) and HL2 it's self... it's going to be unforgetable, and the building blocks of all the great mods of the future. HL2 is going to kick ****, period, either single player or multiplayer, enough said. Valve has put a lot of time into making this masterpiece, despite what some people think about the hacking incident and release delays, but thats ok. I'd rather wait longer to have a incredible game then it to be released as some 75% completed hack-job.

    Both games are different in terms of storyline and graphics and physics and blah blah blah. They will both be up there with the "godly games" place in my book. Ya, Doom3 is pushing the limit on how awesome things look, but HL2 is going to be more about the gameplay... while having awesome graphics @ the same time.

    All that in a nutshell... they're both gonna kick ****.
  • TequilaTequila Join Date: 2003-08-13 Member: 19660Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-coil+Jul 19 2004, 11:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Jul 19 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, I have to say I hope *both* games take cues from games like Chronicles of Riddick and Thief 3, and attach the player camera to a real model. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Perhaps in Doom 3, but never in HL2. The devlopers aren't even having Freeman reflected in the water/glass/whatever. It really wouldn't work for HL2's gameplay, in slower paced games like Thief 3 then it's fair enough, but it's too sluggish for frantic firefights.

    And Doom 3 pushing the genre more than Half-Life 2? I'd have to contest that it's the other way round.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-Duff-Man+Jul 19 2004, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Jul 19 2004, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Daza400+Jul 19 2004, 07:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daza400 @ Jul 19 2004, 07:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Doom 3 looks good, but does it run good? No it runs like crap. They used to much shaders etc, only a very good computer can run it, yet hl2 can be run on most computers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All things I've heard point in the opposite direction.

    I mean, come <i>on</i>, this is a Carmack engine, of course it's going to be amazingly scaleable in addition to looking sweet on the high end and having mega leet physics. Think about the Q3 engine, that thing could run on any type of computer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    wasn't the minimum for doom3 was a geforce 3 and 1.5ghz P4?
  • panda_de_malheureuxpanda_de_malheureux Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24775Members
    If anyone cares, my like/want list.

    1) hl2
    1.5) hl2 mods
    2) WoW, depends what they do with it
    3) Guild Wars, depends what they do with it
    4) Doom 3
    5) ghost recon 2, not sure, havent seen previews
    6) Fallout 3, depends what they do with it
    7) ut2004 for mods/ut2005, whichever i get around to first
    999) Far Cry - god I don't want to play that game ever again
  • TestamentTestament Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4037Members
    For me HL2 without mods is down below Far Cry.
  • Daza4Daza4 Kerc Kasha Join Date: 2003-04-06 Member: 15233Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Surge+Jul 19 2004, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Surge @ Jul 19 2004, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can you back that up with evidence? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If I did I would be banned, so uh yeah.
    EDIT: Farcry? HAH that is the worst game I have ever seen, all they did was mess around with graphics, give it a crappy storyline and throw it out on the market . The game runs poor as hell, I admit it looks good but I rather a smooth game then a good looking one that lags me to hell when I look at water.
  • TommyVercettiTommyVercetti Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13390Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    That's odd Daza, because Far Cry ran very well on my system and the single player gave me a good 25 hours of fun (it never ends when you expect it to).
  • littlewildlittlewild Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9467Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-DY357LX+Jul 19 2004, 03:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DY357LX @ Jul 19 2004, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm going to be buying both as soon as they hit
    the shelves so which comes first isn't really <i>that</i>
    important to me.
    I'm not too keen on getting Half-Life 2 or any other games/mods
    through a download system for 2 main reasons:
    1: It takes a while. (I think it's safe to say Half-Life 2 will
    be at least a 1.5 gig download. Heck PlanetSide was 1.2)
    With several thousand people all wanting to download Half-Life
    and Counter-Strike: Source the second it hits Steam, the networks
    are bound to struggle. Regardless of whatever preparations
    Valve and the Steam network gur's put it place.
    2: I like to have a nice collection of boxes and manuals
    and discs sitting on my shelve. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    I got Rainbow Six 3 via a download system free from FilePlanet
    but that took a good 4 hours or so. It'll be interesting to see
    how things go from here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Maybe that's why Valve hired Bram Cohen.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jul 20 2004, 07:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jul 20 2004, 07:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's odd Daza, because Far Cry ran very well on my system and the single player gave me a good 25 hours of fun (it never ends when you expect it to). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You've got a ATi.

    And some of us had problems with the AI, how for some people it was genious, for others it'd blast your head clean off with a SMG from across the Island. I'll admit that for those that everything works great its probably one of the best games of all time, but for those that it doesn't, it sucks.

    When it comes to "Real" models for HL2, I doubt they'll do it. If they do, that'd be okay, but I myself wouldn't think the game would be made any better or worse by it- I just thought it was fun to look at in Riddick. With DOOM3 though, I'm almost sure they have the player modeled.

    Though it all arrises some questions- if VALVe DID put actual shadows in there, would that be able to effect gameplay for PC users? People playing the SP with shadows would have to watch out because the enemy could see their shadow, but lower end people wouldn't have to care because they don't have a shadow. Same with everything else.
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Jul 19 2004, 05:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Jul 19 2004, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying its ugly. its not. Its freaking beautiful. But the graphics aren't as advanced as DOOM3 or STALKER or hell I'd go so far as to say Far Cry and <b>Painkiller.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> I thought, from the demo at least, that Painkiller's graphics were nothing really special...
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