Ns: Nostalgia Strikes Back
semipsychotic
Join Date: 2003-07-09 Member: 18061Members
Join Date: 2003-07-09 Member: 18061Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why I think people loved 1.04</div> *EDIT*...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>READ MY POST BEFORE YOU POST! THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT BRINGING BACK 1.04!</b></span>
I know the title may throw people off, but trust me: this belongs in this forum.
<b>Yesterday</b>
Here's a quote from the Bibl- er, the TSA Fronteirsmen manual:
<i>"One marine is at a disadvantage against one alien. But a Frontiersman is rarely alone."</i>
I call it my Bible because that's how I started the game. Somebody gave me the link to the website and nothing else, and here I am today playing since 1.02. I started with the Fronteirsmen manual, which gave me enough grasp of the game concept and basic objectives/strategy to get going.
This quote charicterized what I felt about NS from the start. My first marine game, I phased in through the infantry portal to see a huge turret farm out front, and the comm chair behind me in the classic ns_eclipse spawn. I looked upon as a wave of fades backed by the most enourmous player character I had ever seen blasted through and annihlated the farm, taking us with it soon afterwards. Ever after that, I have always linked fades and onos with the incredible might of the aliens.
I also remember one of my experiences with a skulk in ns_nothing. I knew nothing about the misplaced hitboxes... I assumed I was just supposed to shoot at the little ugly thing and start building the strucures down in Viaduct. We were above viaduct on that hallway, and he charged me from about 30-40 feet away as I came around the corner that was closer to Powersilo. I emptied half a clip into his face, which did absolutley nothing becuase the hitbox wasn't in his face. And then I got killed. From that point on, I wasn't about to leave the sight of another marine.
And those were the good days. If you strayed beyond the sight of your team, it wouldn't take long to get lost without a map and then get eaten.
Atmosperic? Yes. Entertaining? Yes.
<b>Today</b>
Remember that quote up there? I posted it in a thread somewhere around here and stated that the game would be more fun that way. And I got a nice, hearty, <i>sarcastic</i> laugh from it.
Well, classic today is almost an opposite example of that quote. If you're a skulk, you better be with other skulks or some lone wolf is going to come by and empty a lot of lead into you. Early in the match, solo is the name of the game: marines spread out as much as they can to find resource nodes and get RFK. Fades can be taken down by one (moderately lucky) marine with a shotgun. Onos are outgunned after the 10 minute mark (not to say they're easy to kill, but they're simply outgunned).
Am I the only one that feels that the aliens should go back to their primordial swamps and come up with some better carapace, or what? I wouldn't mind if the games were rather heavily biased towards the aliens, as long as the marines had to go back to thinking of new strategies and having the man in the back keep a close eye on their six.
<b>Suggestion Farm</b>
If you ask me, motion tracking has got to go, in one form or another. Motion tracking completely puts the nail in the coffin on the skulks. Plus, what kind of combat-based game is a game where you feel safe? That's what motion tracking does: it makes marines feel secure, and aliens feel hopeless. That safe feeling... doesn't fit in NS. There should be no such thing as taking your time.
The hive/armor bonuses. I'm not sure how well balanced combat is, but this is the way to change NS completely without changing combat at all. At hive two, a fairly hefty kickup in bonus would allow skulks to use leap back to their advantages. This would make aliens feel more confident all around, allowing them to tear lone wolf marines to pieces, forcing marines to stick together all over again.
Marine RFK: doesn't help. Removing it for the marines would keep commanders from sanctioning rambos and runaways. This would also have the nice side effect of shortening Alamo matches.
Thanks for listening. I love this game: that's why I feel it's worthy of improvement.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>READ MY POST BEFORE YOU POST! THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT BRINGING BACK 1.04!</b></span>
I know the title may throw people off, but trust me: this belongs in this forum.
<b>Yesterday</b>
Here's a quote from the Bibl- er, the TSA Fronteirsmen manual:
<i>"One marine is at a disadvantage against one alien. But a Frontiersman is rarely alone."</i>
I call it my Bible because that's how I started the game. Somebody gave me the link to the website and nothing else, and here I am today playing since 1.02. I started with the Fronteirsmen manual, which gave me enough grasp of the game concept and basic objectives/strategy to get going.
This quote charicterized what I felt about NS from the start. My first marine game, I phased in through the infantry portal to see a huge turret farm out front, and the comm chair behind me in the classic ns_eclipse spawn. I looked upon as a wave of fades backed by the most enourmous player character I had ever seen blasted through and annihlated the farm, taking us with it soon afterwards. Ever after that, I have always linked fades and onos with the incredible might of the aliens.
I also remember one of my experiences with a skulk in ns_nothing. I knew nothing about the misplaced hitboxes... I assumed I was just supposed to shoot at the little ugly thing and start building the strucures down in Viaduct. We were above viaduct on that hallway, and he charged me from about 30-40 feet away as I came around the corner that was closer to Powersilo. I emptied half a clip into his face, which did absolutley nothing becuase the hitbox wasn't in his face. And then I got killed. From that point on, I wasn't about to leave the sight of another marine.
And those were the good days. If you strayed beyond the sight of your team, it wouldn't take long to get lost without a map and then get eaten.
Atmosperic? Yes. Entertaining? Yes.
<b>Today</b>
Remember that quote up there? I posted it in a thread somewhere around here and stated that the game would be more fun that way. And I got a nice, hearty, <i>sarcastic</i> laugh from it.
Well, classic today is almost an opposite example of that quote. If you're a skulk, you better be with other skulks or some lone wolf is going to come by and empty a lot of lead into you. Early in the match, solo is the name of the game: marines spread out as much as they can to find resource nodes and get RFK. Fades can be taken down by one (moderately lucky) marine with a shotgun. Onos are outgunned after the 10 minute mark (not to say they're easy to kill, but they're simply outgunned).
Am I the only one that feels that the aliens should go back to their primordial swamps and come up with some better carapace, or what? I wouldn't mind if the games were rather heavily biased towards the aliens, as long as the marines had to go back to thinking of new strategies and having the man in the back keep a close eye on their six.
<b>Suggestion Farm</b>
If you ask me, motion tracking has got to go, in one form or another. Motion tracking completely puts the nail in the coffin on the skulks. Plus, what kind of combat-based game is a game where you feel safe? That's what motion tracking does: it makes marines feel secure, and aliens feel hopeless. That safe feeling... doesn't fit in NS. There should be no such thing as taking your time.
The hive/armor bonuses. I'm not sure how well balanced combat is, but this is the way to change NS completely without changing combat at all. At hive two, a fairly hefty kickup in bonus would allow skulks to use leap back to their advantages. This would make aliens feel more confident all around, allowing them to tear lone wolf marines to pieces, forcing marines to stick together all over again.
Marine RFK: doesn't help. Removing it for the marines would keep commanders from sanctioning rambos and runaways. This would also have the nice side effect of shortening Alamo matches.
Thanks for listening. I love this game: that's why I feel it's worthy of improvement.
Comments
Nails in the coffin, I say. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with most of what you wrote, if not all.
Leap needs to do a bit more damage or your idea implemented. MT? Have it only work when 'rines are standing still themselves. Oh, and MT shouldnt reveal cloaked walking Khara...
Personally, I think leap plus another upgrade makes hive 2 skulks pretty decent. They're still frail but can close the gap much, much faster. It's just hive 1 skulks that can't keep up with the 'rines, since their best upgrades are unavailable unless the team forsakes DMS. <i>*cough*</i>Unchain chambers<i>*cough*</i>
I would like to see marine RfK abolished for one beta, just to see how it goes...I think there was a 1.1 patch where aliens got RfK and 'rines didn't, and 'rines got nailed. I realise it was a different game, but it may still be a bit too brutal for 'rines.
Shut up with the truth no one wants to hear it la la la la la
MT range just needs to be limited more and a little less specific (2-D direction only perhaps, or mini-map only).
This is the HUUUUGE problem that causes nothing but rambos on marine team. If this is rid the ramboing will lessen dramatically on marine side.
Also a boost in skulks Armor back to 20 should solve the "rambo owning 5 skulks with a lmg clip and 10 pistol shots" deal which i have been seeing more and more of lately.
Thats because its what happened. Yea 1.04 was fun, the first few JP/HMG rushes. Then it became glued to the JP/HMG rush strat and got stagnant. All the marines had a tea party and then drew straws to see who would go own the hive back to the stone age by himself.
The truth hurts...
i liked 45+ min games (with a faster ending because AR was worth something and onos were harder to kill).
about the only thing i liked about 1.4 compared to now was haveing one and only one gorge.
now the game is a up-hill battle for the kharra (already a hard team to play because range wepons > skulks).
you have to use team work to the exterme to put a stop to a rush. sometimes you need more skulks than marines. to win on equil terms you need to hit them from 2 sides and hope no one is whaching the 6. one marine can own 2 skulks easy and if in a good possion it can be very hard to remove him with out 4 or 5 skulks (in other words he runs out of ammo). if the marine/s are on the move they are easyer target/s.
i dont like nerfing anything because it causes more problems than it solves more times then not.
a boost to the skulk to 20ap may help a bit.
mt = too cheap now and makes it impossable to do anything anywhere with out drawing attention. makes the skulk worthless at what it does best.
should be commander view only or an item that is droped by the com for a marine to use (instead of showing all marines where they are it emites a sound that gets louder as they get closer or a beep that becomes more frequent as they get closer).
easyer still take the mt off the mini map and shorten the range it will pick up movement.
gorge = near useless on the front line. a boost or cheap/free gorges would be nice. bb is a nice base wreaker it is too bad it is on the gorge which cannt get anywhere near marines. i would say give bb to leark but his plate is full already.
if boost a fix for gorge gang could be make heal spray nonstackable (hey a new word lol)
So this is what I suggest, making hives build faster OR allow gorges to assist in the hive build. Addition to that, once the hive is up. Make the rewards greater. In my example, I'm using caraspace.
Vanilla Skulk = 10AP
1 Hive Skulk + 3 DCs = 30AP
2 Hive Skulk + 3 DCs = 40AP
3 Hive Skulk + 3 DCs = 50AP
Why I suggest this? As marines goes further into the game, they get damage and armour upgrades. Skulks initially biting twice, now have to bite 3~4 times to kill a single marine. If that isn't hard enuf (marine crack jumping), imagine upgraded bullets landing into your flesh. 1 Marine = DOUBLE TROUBLE. In terms by getting two hives, rambos find it much difficult to kill stuff if they don't stay with their teammates.
As you can see, I'm still allowing rambo. However, rambo can be only done in the start game. Why? Cuz marines need the initial RT resource boost. On the other hand, rambos will find it more difficult in the midgame as the 2nd hive is up.
Advantages
************
- Aliens are motivated to get hives
- Skulks have a fighting chance against rambos
Yes, the early versions were the best cause back then the aliens were something impressive, but for each version that came out, they got nerfed more and more...
I don't really play classical NS anymore cause it's not much fun playing with paperbags vs ranged titans of steel...at least in combat the khaara has some chance of winning...
Just waiting for a version which will boost the alien team again for once...
Or do you really expect the dev.team to read these posts and actually do something based on it? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thats because its what happened. Yea 1.04 was fun, the first few JP/HMG rushes. Then it became glued to the JP/HMG rush strat and got stagnant. All the marines had a tea party and then drew straws to see who would go own the hive back to the stone age by himself.
The truth hurts...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because it is POSSIBLE to discuss part of 1.04 without including every other part. If someone says that they really liked babblers, of fade bb, or paralyze on the onos, or WHATEVER, people always want to counter with "OMG 1.04 JPHMGFTWLOLWTH". It's stupid. Listen closely: It is <i>possible</i> to discuss <i>part</i> of 1.x without having to lump in <i>every</i> part of it. Get it? Thank you.
But, as people have said: this thread isn't about reviving 1.04. Right now, I'm talking about one aspect of the game: the fact that in early 1.0X, one alien would beat one marine. I think. Because one alien was more than enough to kill me, more often than not. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
JP/HMG rushes aren't the topic. I'm glad those are gone as much as you are.
Neither is bunnyhopping. Completely different topic in itself.
However, something more on the motion tracking topic:
It's an interesting idea considering implementing motion tracking for commanders. To be honest, I usually research motion tracking more for me than my soldiers. This is because I always have one eye on my minimap, so I usually report hive posts and RT's under attack right as the red dot gets there. Maybe a commander is meant for those calm strategics?
Idea: Motion tracking a commander only thing (suggested by a Snidely). Obviously, the price would be reduced slightly, which would require a bit of playtesting and tweaking. I'm just afraid that well-communicating commanders may still be able to bring motion tracking to the full effect, simply by saying "skulk in the vents nearby." If this produces another safe effect, then it wouldn't work.
Idea #2: Motion tracking range and specific-ness (or whatever the word is for it) limited (suggested by Ahnteis). For 2D plane, you still have limited the work to looking just one line of area: mt blip in front of you, just look up and down. A range limit would be nice. While it would bring the secure feeling to the marine base, it would be gone in the field, which would work. It would have to be a pretty small range limit. Limiting it to the minimap would be the same as a 2D plane, but more limiting because it's hard to see with your map in front of you, namely in ns_nancy.
kltower4: interesting idea, but one of the things that the hives do is that they already give you an armor efficiency bonus. While a carapace bonus would be more apparent, you might as well just boost the hive figures.
For those who don't know, here's how the hive figures work, as explained by I'm Lost in the 3.0g changelog thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The 2.0/2.5/3.0 armor system means that with one hive, two points of damage absorbed by armor will only take away one point of armor. With three hives, it takes 3 points of damage to take away a point of armor. The 70%/80%90% refers to how much damage goes to armor. For example, a one-hive alien gets hit by a level0 lmg bullet (10 damage). 70% (7 damage) goes to armor, and 30% (3 damage) goes to health. The 3 damage to health takes away 3 health points. The 7 armor damage takes away 7/2 (7 divided by 2), or 3.5 points of armor. A 3-hive alien getting hit by the same bullet would have 10% (1 damage) go to health and 90% (9 damage) go to armor. This would result in losing 1 point of health and 9/3, or 3 points of armor. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that, the gameplay was extremely linear, basically boiling down to whether the aliens could get two hives up and thwart a JP/HMG rush. Two hive lockdowns were unbelievably boring, and JP/HMG rushes were overpowered as hell.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the fact that in early 1.0X, one alien would beat one marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are talking about a skulk, almost never true.
Now, to my kinda off topic section of this post:
One thing that would fit kind of nicely with the skulk-nerf discussion (and make the game more fun for both sides in my mind) would be:
Lower the AP and HP of all alien classes, fix their hitboxes, bring back the 1.04 gorge (yay!), and lower the respawn rate of all of the aliens to something between 3-5.
I think this would work becuase it would give the aliens even more of a hive-mentality feeling. Everyone, lets look back on StarCraft, or even the movie Aliens. The Zerg, and Xenomorphs won through sheer numbers, and any species that should be able to infect a marine ship, base, or even outpost, should most definately be able come out at a faster rate, and in higher numbers than the Khaara do now.
(Even look at real creatures that exist in a Hive environment. Bees, ants, termites...they all have AMAZINGLY HUGE numbers.)
So, lower their AP and HP, raise their attack damage, fix the hitboxes, and make 'em spawn faster!
That's my take on the MT and Skulk-Nerf discussion.
*edit* Fix everyones hitboxes! No more sparks when you peg a Fade, and no more biting through the marines!
i want HA rushes NOT to be the game enders.
i want onos to be locked at hive 3. but also boosted so high that even thinking of taking out an onos is ludicrous.
i want bile bomb to damage armor. a good weapon to stop ha rushes.
Keyser59: I'm not talking about ALL of 1.0X! I just stated that a post before, and Bob right before that! I'm talking about the fact that for many newbie marines, if they were alone, the aliens would clobber them.
Okay, so according to your experience, marines would have beat skulks in 1.0X. Well, it was the other way around for people who had just joined the game. For ME, walking more than 30 feet away from a turret farm or an ally meant instadeath. If we could make it that marines would have a tough time while away from the team (i.e. make aliens stronger than marines) then it would force marines to stick together, think more, and not be able to kill the aliens with a sneeze.
Perdition Flamethrower: I don't think that removing RFK and taking MT would gut the marines. If it does, we can always slightly increase their resource gathering rate to compensate for the RFK. But I have to say, the safe feeling that MT brings doesn't belong, and commanders telling marines "okay, go out and kill aliens for me" doesn't belong either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think this would work becuase it would give the aliens even more of a hive-mentality feeling. Everyone, lets look back on StarCraft, or even the movie Aliens. The Zerg, and Xenomorphs won through sheer numbers, and any species that should be able to infect a marine ship, base, or even outpost, should most definately be able come out at a faster rate, and in higher numbers than the Khaara do now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't Starcraft. This isn't Aliens. This is Natural-selection. The idea we're going for here is to force the marines to stick together. With your suggestion, we'd be making the marines rambo out, slaughter three skulks with one LMG clip, and put 3-9 resources in the comm's pocket. Sorry if that came out a bit harsh, it wasn't intended that way.
*EDIT*
Xeno: this isn't a topic about bringing back 1.0X! This topic is about one factor that made 1.0X fun for the many of us who sucked as marines.
And I know this isnt StarCraft and I know this isnt Aliens...buddy. But the Khaara are a hive species, and they dont act like it. Like I said before, look at real world hive creatures, then compare to the Khaara. (Don't gripe at me for suggesting realism.)
Hell, even increasing their respawn rate would make the game better.
Like your self i have been playing from the start and in my own time of playing NS through the diffrent version there has been a large shift in the way public players and to an extent clan matches have changed. Its true that the games have become less <i>Atmosperic</i> that might just be because i know the maps now. Anyway i just wanted to make a few comments on your sugestion farm :
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If you ask me, motion tracking has got to go, in one form or another. Motion tracking completely puts the nail in the coffin on the skulks. Plus, what kind of combat-based game is a game where you feel safe? That's what motion tracking does: it makes marines feel secure, and aliens feel hopeless. That safe feeling... doesn't fit in NS. There should be no such thing as taking your time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as for MT it has been talked about for a while now, and i think a good way of keeping MT and making it better would be to use the idea that skulks that are walking dont show up. As for running skulks, gorges runing , lerks and fade and onos i think they should always be shown and MT not to be taken out totaly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The hive/armor bonuses. I'm not sure how well balanced combat is, but this is the way to change NS completely without changing combat at all. At hive two, a fairly hefty kickup in bonus would allow skulks to use leap back to their advantages. This would make aliens feel more confident all around, allowing them to tear lone wolf marines to pieces, forcing marines to stick together all over again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bonus for skulks would be a good idea, as it wil force marine to stay in groups at the start of games. As for giving any other alien more hp/armour i think the rest are fine as they are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine RFK: doesn't help. Removing it for the marines would keep commanders from sanctioning rambos and runaways. This would also have the nice side effect of shortening Alamo matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I command alot and dont find that i notice a huge diffrence by people ramboing or just gaurding positions and killing skulks.
As its been made clear this is still a beta so things will change , hopfully, for the better. The next version is due out on the 23rd (This friday) so im just waiting and seeing what happens.
fade cost raised
mt to comm only
yes to all, would provide greater teamplay for rines, and lengthen the time of la/lmg vs skulks (which i think is a great part of the game, but sadly lasts only about 4 mins).
Skulk armor boost = teh win.
Fade cost reduction + weaker Fades = teh win.
Ono cost increase + tied to hive 2 + slight armor/hp boost + gets celerity as an upgrade in addition to any other upgrades an alien can normally get at that point in the game (so at hive 3 it'd get 3 upgrades, plus celerity. It can't get celetrity twice though for more speed) = teh win.
Slight Lerk armor boost = teh win.
Umbra boosted to block 2/3 = teh win.
Webs nerfed, made hive 2 ability = teh win.
Bile bomb range boosted, given ability to damage armor, made hive 3 ability = teh win.
And you know what I miss MOST about 1.04?
BRING BACK THE OLD ARMOR SYSTEM! Make Redemption actually WORTH GETTING once again!