What about the jails in Minority Report where you are put in a sleep state and forced to watch your crime through the eyes of the victim over and over again. Food is nutritional sludge fed intravenously and the bodies are stored tightly packed in a pool of warm water. The jobs of security guards are effectively reduced to scooping "floaters" out of the water! That's gotta be cheap on the state budget!
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Jul 28 2004, 08:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Jul 28 2004, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What about the jails in Minority Report where you are put in a sleep state and forced to watch your crime through the eyes of the victim over and over again. Food is nutritional sludge fed intravenously and the bodies are stored tightly packed in a pool of warm water. The jobs of security guards are effectively reduced to scooping "floaters" out of the water! That's gotta be cheap on the state budget! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wonder what they did with people that didn't commit murder? I don't think it told you that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He bought Newt Gingrich' lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the jails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, hasn't this guy heard of the Bill of Rights!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor <i><b>cruel and unusual punishments </b></i>inflicted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another good reason for prison (and another reason why prison's shouldn't be turned into hells) is for those people who wouldn't have been criminals if it wasn't for their environment. That doesn't mean they shouldn't take responsibility for what they did but I know quite a few people who couldn't do the 'education' thing and make something of themselves because of family problems etc. Even just silly things like peer pressure or something, we know they are weak but we can't just lock them up forever and we certainly can't torture them for it.
Instead prison is a way they can escape those negative influences, it is a place where they have all the time in the world to sit down, study and get some qualifications and some proper experience. OK so the stigma of having been in a prison won't help them but at least they have a chance.
All those people who hear of a tough prison and exclaim "That'll teach them!" seriously haven't thought enough about it.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Jul 28 2004, 11:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Jul 28 2004, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He bought Newt Gingrich' lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the jails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, hasn't this guy heard of the Bill of Rights!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor <i><b>cruel and unusual punishments </b></i>inflicted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i understand your joke here, but the whole gingrich lecture thing is literally <i><b>unusual</b></i>. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
however that is an AND operator, not an OR. And as much as we all believe that being forced to listen to Newt would be crule, Idon't thing we can convince a judge of that,
Actually had a pretty entertaining discussion with a regular up at the local Starbucks (about the best place for adult political discussion around here) regarding prisoner's rights et cetera. He held to a pretty solid viewpoint in that when you're convicted of a felony, you forfeit your rights as a citizen--which I will qualify by saying that beyond the appeals process, you lose your right to free speech, assembly, vote and every other stuatory right not involved in the continuing legal process as you appeal. You don't have the same right to free speech in jail. You can't "peaceably assemble" at will. You sure as hell can never register to vote if you're convicted felon.
So here's what the man said. You get convicted of a crime by a jury of your peers, and barring an appeal, you should forfeit all citizenship rights when you enter a jail. NOT saying that the government should force you to any indoctrination or forced religion or such (no-establishment clause covers religions). However, you don't get the right to sue the state because the orange prison uniform is discriminatory because it clashes with you complexion (which is a current lawsuit in progress here in the states). You don't get the right to cable TV that the rest of Americans have to pay for if they want it in their own homes. You don't get weight rooms that beat the facilities of private health clubs in the free populace. You don't get to sue the state over the food served as long as it isn't dangerous to your health. You don't get cigarettes. You don't get parole. HOWEVER, once you've served the sentence that you've been assigned, your debt to society is paid, and you should have your rights restored fully to what they were before.
It's an interesting viewpoint, and it made me do quite a bit of thinking. What he says makes sense. There are lots of rights you forfeit when you break the laws. Why not all of them except the right to be free from direct harm at the hands of the government? If you're not willing to obey the laws, once you've gone through your trial and been convicted, you don't retain the protection of the law save for the protection of your physical safety and your right to appeal. You don't get time off for good behavior. You serve the time allotted, not a day more or less unless you commit another crime whilst in jail (i.e., assault, murder, attempted escape, etc.) The money saved on the parole process and they payroll of parole officers and administrators would be pretty nice.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
and put alot of people out of jobs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (hehe)
though an interesting idea, I personaly don't like it.
when you start revoking rights it starts to feel like a slippery slope type of thing.
where do you stop removing rights? and if they can't sue then who stops the prison from doing horrible things to them (or even moderitly horrible things like slops).
As for the frivolous law suite, it is just that, and nothingwill come of it.
As for the nice things in Jail? Those are there to keep down unrest. Removing all of those things jut makes people go stir crazy, and if that happens I wouldn't bet on Jail Violence going down.
To quote my coworker "Yah, I used to be alot stronger, but then again, when your in jail, you don't have much else to do" Take away those and you just give em more time to come up with nasty shanks.
The mistake that some of you are making is believing that every person is in at least some respect similar to you. Most people aren't as intelligent or as concerned about morals/principles as you are Nemesis. I heard about a guy on TV who went to prison because he killed his mother and his girlfriend, cut off their heads, and stuck them in a microwave. Rehabilitation? **** that, kill him.
I'm pretty sure Saudi Arabia is the country where if you're found guilty of stealing they lop off one of your hands. A second offense gets your other hand cut off. If you're found guilty of rape or murder your head is cut off. It's simple and it works, Saudi Arabia has (or had) one of the lowest crime rates in the world. People here in America are not ignorant of the punishment for committing a crime. Criminals know they risk jail time/execution, so I want to know what everyones problem with capital punishment is. If it was mandatory for murderers to be executed, whats the problem? Are you personally planning to murder someone? No, of course not, so why worry about some loser who is executed for killing someone? The basis for peoples rejection of the death penalty is that they imagine having to face that same penalty and of course no one WANTS to die. You're not going to be executed because you're not a murderer...stop imagining yourself in their place.
I'm not sure if Saudi Arabia still works that way, and I think recently the influx of foreigners has upset their balance, but it's a marvelous system and I would like to see it implemented here. You should only get one appeal...appeals are supposed to be a failsafe in case you get a jury which is in the minority when it delivered a guilty verdict. If you need more than one appeal you're not trying to dodge a minority verdict, you're searching for one; one that will make you innocent. Maybe there would be an appeal allowed every 5 years or so. If you kill someone you will -never- be reintegrated into society as far as I'm concerned...you crossed over the line. For drug-related crimes I would advocate something like the removal of the appendage you use to take the drug. If you inject heroine in your arm or something it would be cut off and it's probably possible to cut off your nose too.
If every prison mimicked a concentration camp how eager do you think people would be to go there? Oh, sure, if the person survives the ordeal he will probably be angry with the system but what is he going to do? Kill someone else? That's fine, he WILL be caught and this time he might not survive. Anyone crazy enough to risk that kind of punishment (especially more than once) is so seriously mentally unbalanced that rehabilitation would never have been possible anyway.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
Why don't we do things like that?
Because we are better then that.
Nem put it best. If you want to realy look at a society, look at how it treats the people with the least power.
Oh, and do you want it on your concience, that one time that you were wrong, and it was some one else that killed that lady? If so, then you get to pull the switch, cuz I aint doin it.
I am not realy opposed to the Death penalty (though this is not a discussion on said penalty, thus I will not get into it), though I do think it is a seriously flawed system atm.
As for your example with Saudi Arabia, show me atleast one article that says anytihng of the sort.
I find it ironical that people of the most developped country have a nostalgia for medieval prisonner treatment... so much for being the lighthouse of the world.
I remembered hearing that (and I checked but couldn't find an exact year) France only stopped using the guillotine somewhere between 1977 - 1981 *coughStakhanovcough*. As for Saudi Arabia: <a href='http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+sa0138)' target='_blank'>http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/...d(DOCID+sa0138)</a>. There's other reading elsewhere and I'm aware that it says under anesthetic but I'm sure thats a more recent development. Prisoners are not inherently granted the least power, their actions have earned them that rank in society. Nowadays it's very hard to convict anyone of a crime even if they are guilty...let alone an innocent person. We've all heard the horror stories about people being locked away for years and then later they are proven innocent. Most of the time it's not some clean-cut gentleman who's put away but some guy who might not be guilty of murdering the person he was incarcerated for but is still guilty of other crimes.
Edit: I'm also really fond of the idea that "those who received and distributed drugs from abroad were made subject to the death sentence for bringing "corruption" into the country."
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
ok, first (because this realy got me) <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of the time it's not some clean-cut gentleman who's put away but some guy who might not be guilty of murdering the person he was incarcerated for but is still guilty of other crimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soooo, selling drugs, or some petty teft makes it ok if we accidentaly execute them? They are still inocent of the crime being punished for.
Personaly, I don't care if the guy is a killer, I don't want some one punished for a crime they did not commit, especialy something as drastic as capital punishment.
Now, for that article..... It is sorta squify. Most of the reports are internal (by the people that would look good by said reports). The few thimes they use some one like AI, they report it as 'less then 10'. Combine that with the fact that the entire nation is religious (or else they kill you), I just don't like the article, It only points out that there are disenters to this oppinion in one sentance.
Again, I don't want to live in a society that does that kind of thing to any one (specialy killing you if you leave Islam <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
@Stakhanov: I Resent that! I DON'T WANT TO SEE THINGS LIKE THIS! And alot of Americans are sickened by the idea also.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why don't we do things like that?
Because we are better then that.
Nem put it best. If you want to really look at a society, look at how it treats the people with the least power.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree with that little statement if it wasnt for this little voice in my head repeating "Yeah, and they dont come much weaker and defenceless then when they're in the womb". I also cant go past without pointing out that you just claimed your beliefs were better than those from another society - what happened to "each society to their own"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it ironical that people of the most developped country have a nostalgia for medieval prisonner treatment... so much for being the lighthouse of the world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder why that is Stakhanov - maybe the awe inspiring stories coming out of the current "modern" jails aint exactly inspiring. Maybe people are starting to realise that not every criminal should be treated like a patient, with a cureable problem that they really dont want but have no choice in the matter. And as for that lighthouse of the world crack - I'd wager billions of people world wide consider the standard American life and freedoms to be some sort of paradise. I'm sure those dying in Sudan would be deeply and truely troubled about escaping to America, only to discover that criminals can be, horrors, sometimes locked up and made to work. Ditto for the Iranians, North Koreans etc.
I have a family friend who went to the slammer. He was drunk, killed a man while driving, skipped his court appearance and left for South Africa. Got married, decided to face the music, came back to Aust and was jailed for 5 years. He said the single worst thing about Australian prisons was the boredom. Jobs, any job, even laundry, was considered great because at least it was something to do. He claimed thats why they used to have crims break rocks - sure it wasnt really good for much, but at least it kept you busy.
That guy just sounds like he considers those in his care criminals who deserve to be punished. Not by brutal beatings or torture, but by hard labour and a little discomfort. I dont lose sleep over it...
I'm not saying people should be tortured, just most people who end up in jail should be executed...and fairly quickly. It's far easier than busting your **** for upkeep of these prisoners especially when they don't deserve it and don't appreciate it really. Some of the crimes that land people in jail are so heinous that they deserve the death penalty anyway. Many Americans are sickened by that idea but we also have one of the highest crime rates and I can walk around on the street and I guarantee at least 90% of the people I would see have committed some crime...whether it be drugs or robbery or assault -- whatever, just look at the facts: America has a pretty high crime rate (and pretty stupid people, like on Jerry Springer and the countless other shows that its spawned) and also has very lax punishment in addition to the fact that it's a lot harder to convict someone, especially with all the appeals. Saudi Arabia boasts one of the lowest crime rates in the world and most of the crime that does go on there is due to foreigners (in the link I posted), obviously it's because people know if they mess up their government won't take it lightly. Saudi Arabia is pretty decent really...they aren't very fanatical, very few if any of the foreigners were Muslim and they weren't executed for that either. I'm sure there are a few other countries like Saudi Arabia but it's the first one that came to mind. I'm a white male living in America and I don't have any ties to any Arabic countries. I'm speaking out of genuine appreciation for their justice system.
In case you missed it the first sentence of my last post about the guillotine was directed at Stakhanov because his profile says he lives in Paris...
You're right, this is the way jail <i>should</i> be run. If you're stupid enough to comit a bad crime, then you shouldn't complain., because...well frankly, you had it coming to you. Jail is "enforced rehab" as Cronos said, and this is just a harsh way to enforce it.
If there were to be a jailbreak, however, this guy would be the first to die <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Gandhi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gandhi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An Eye For An Eye Leaves The Whole World Blind<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
some guy who was buying some weed for his friends deserves to die b/c he ended up in prison? Some one breaks into a house and steals a TV, he deserves to die? Some one embezzles money from his company, he deserves to die?
Most people are not in prison for violent crimes.
Arawn, just think for a few seconds on what you are saying? 90% of the people you see walking around have committed a FELONY? (I am excluding Jaywalking, double parking and petty theft, things that are misdemeanors).
So 90% of the population of the US has done some actual crime? Just think again man. And most of the people in jail deserve to die? If these are your thoughts, then I suggest you move.
Now, for Marine: You keep on missing my point in the other thread, each society creates their own morals, I never said that I agree with all of them. Thus why I said look in this thread if you want to see MY Morals.
Now, for the rest. So what if there is technically a weaker member of society? That dosn't change the statement. People in Jail are at the will of the system, we could do just about anything we wanted to them, and other countries do.
Basically, I see no socially redeeming factor to execution of people that could be rehabilitated, or of destroying some one's lively hood (lets see you get a job when you are branded as a thief, and made a cripple, I can't think of very many legal jobs that are open to one handed thieves). And those are just extremes, I still see no reason to torture people (as that is how I view this man's prison), when we could be turning them into productive members of society.
Comments
I wonder what they did with people that didn't commit murder? I don't think it told you that.
Dude, hasn't this guy heard of the Bill of Rights!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor <i><b>cruel and unusual punishments </b></i>inflicted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead prison is a way they can escape those negative influences, it is a place where they have all the time in the world to sit down, study and get some qualifications and some proper experience. OK so the stigma of having been in a prison won't help them but at least they have a chance.
All those people who hear of a tough prison and exclaim "That'll teach them!" seriously haven't thought enough about it.
Dude, hasn't this guy heard of the Bill of Rights!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor <i><b>cruel and unusual punishments </b></i>inflicted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i understand your joke here, but the whole gingrich lecture thing is literally <i><b>unusual</b></i>. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So here's what the man said. You get convicted of a crime by a jury of your peers, and barring an appeal, you should forfeit all citizenship rights when you enter a jail. NOT saying that the government should force you to any indoctrination or forced religion or such (no-establishment clause covers religions). However, you don't get the right to sue the state because the orange prison uniform is discriminatory because it clashes with you complexion (which is a current lawsuit in progress here in the states). You don't get the right to cable TV that the rest of Americans have to pay for if they want it in their own homes. You don't get weight rooms that beat the facilities of private health clubs in the free populace. You don't get to sue the state over the food served as long as it isn't dangerous to your health. You don't get cigarettes. You don't get parole. HOWEVER, once you've served the sentence that you've been assigned, your debt to society is paid, and you should have your rights restored fully to what they were before.
It's an interesting viewpoint, and it made me do quite a bit of thinking. What he says makes sense. There are lots of rights you forfeit when you break the laws. Why not all of them except the right to be free from direct harm at the hands of the government? If you're not willing to obey the laws, once you've gone through your trial and been convicted, you don't retain the protection of the law save for the protection of your physical safety and your right to appeal. You don't get time off for good behavior. You serve the time allotted, not a day more or less unless you commit another crime whilst in jail (i.e., assault, murder, attempted escape, etc.) The money saved on the parole process and they payroll of parole officers and administrators would be pretty nice.
though an interesting idea, I personaly don't like it.
when you start revoking rights it starts to feel like a slippery slope type of thing.
where do you stop removing rights?
and if they can't sue then who stops the prison from doing horrible things to them (or even moderitly horrible things like slops).
As for the frivolous law suite, it is just that, and nothingwill come of it.
As for the nice things in Jail?
Those are there to keep down unrest. Removing all of those things jut makes people go stir crazy, and if that happens I wouldn't bet on Jail Violence going down.
To quote my coworker "Yah, I used to be alot stronger, but then again, when your in jail, you don't have much else to do"
Take away those and you just give em more time to come up with nasty shanks.
I'm pretty sure Saudi Arabia is the country where if you're found guilty of stealing they lop off one of your hands. A second offense gets your other hand cut off. If you're found guilty of rape or murder your head is cut off. It's simple and it works, Saudi Arabia has (or had) one of the lowest crime rates in the world. People here in America are not ignorant of the punishment for committing a crime. Criminals know they risk jail time/execution, so I want to know what everyones problem with capital punishment is. If it was mandatory for murderers to be executed, whats the problem? Are you personally planning to murder someone? No, of course not, so why worry about some loser who is executed for killing someone? The basis for peoples rejection of the death penalty is that they imagine having to face that same penalty and of course no one WANTS to die. You're not going to be executed because you're not a murderer...stop imagining yourself in their place.
I'm not sure if Saudi Arabia still works that way, and I think recently the influx of foreigners has upset their balance, but it's a marvelous system and I would like to see it implemented here. You should only get one appeal...appeals are supposed to be a failsafe in case you get a jury which is in the minority when it delivered a guilty verdict. If you need more than one appeal you're not trying to dodge a minority verdict, you're searching for one; one that will make you innocent. Maybe there would be an appeal allowed every 5 years or so. If you kill someone you will -never- be reintegrated into society as far as I'm concerned...you crossed over the line. For drug-related crimes I would advocate something like the removal of the appendage you use to take the drug. If you inject heroine in your arm or something it would be cut off and it's probably possible to cut off your nose too.
If every prison mimicked a concentration camp how eager do you think people would be to go there? Oh, sure, if the person survives the ordeal he will probably be angry with the system but what is he going to do? Kill someone else? That's fine, he WILL be caught and this time he might not survive. Anyone crazy enough to risk that kind of punishment (especially more than once) is so seriously mentally unbalanced that rehabilitation would never have been possible anyway.
Because we are better then that.
Nem put it best. If you want to realy look at a society, look at how it treats the people with the least power.
Oh, and do you want it on your concience, that one time that you were wrong, and it was some one else that killed that lady?
If so, then you get to pull the switch, cuz I aint doin it.
I am not realy opposed to the Death penalty (though this is not a discussion on said penalty, thus I will not get into it), though I do think it is a seriously flawed system atm.
As for your example with Saudi Arabia, show me atleast one article that says anytihng of the sort.
Edit: I'm also really fond of the idea that "those who received and distributed drugs from abroad were made subject to the death sentence for bringing "corruption" into the country."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of the time it's not some clean-cut gentleman who's put away but some guy who might not be guilty of murdering the person he was incarcerated for but is still guilty of other crimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soooo, selling drugs, or some petty teft makes it ok if we accidentaly execute them?
They are still inocent of the crime being punished for.
Personaly, I don't care if the guy is a killer, I don't want some one punished for a crime they did not commit, especialy something as drastic as capital punishment.
Now, for that article.....
It is sorta squify.
Most of the reports are internal (by the people that would look good by said reports). The few thimes they use some one like AI, they report it as 'less then 10'. Combine that with the fact that the entire nation is religious (or else they kill you), I just don't like the article, It only points out that there are disenters to this oppinion in one sentance.
Again, I don't want to live in a society that does that kind of thing to any one (specialy killing you if you leave Islam <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
@Stakhanov:
I Resent that!
I DON'T WANT TO SEE THINGS LIKE THIS!
And alot of Americans are sickened by the idea also.
Because we are better then that.
Nem put it best. If you want to really look at a society, look at how it treats the people with the least power.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree with that little statement if it wasnt for this little voice in my head repeating "Yeah, and they dont come much weaker and defenceless then when they're in the womb". I also cant go past without pointing out that you just claimed your beliefs were better than those from another society - what happened to "each society to their own"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it ironical that people of the most developped country have a nostalgia for medieval prisonner treatment... so much for being the lighthouse of the world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder why that is Stakhanov - maybe the awe inspiring stories coming out of the current "modern" jails aint exactly inspiring. Maybe people are starting to realise that not every criminal should be treated like a patient, with a cureable problem that they really dont want but have no choice in the matter. And as for that lighthouse of the world crack - I'd wager billions of people world wide consider the standard American life and freedoms to be some sort of paradise. I'm sure those dying in Sudan would be deeply and truely troubled about escaping to America, only to discover that criminals can be, horrors, sometimes locked up and made to work. Ditto for the Iranians, North Koreans etc.
I have a family friend who went to the slammer. He was drunk, killed a man while driving, skipped his court appearance and left for South Africa. Got married, decided to face the music, came back to Aust and was jailed for 5 years. He said the single worst thing about Australian prisons was the boredom. Jobs, any job, even laundry, was considered great because at least it was something to do. He claimed thats why they used to have crims break rocks - sure it wasnt really good for much, but at least it kept you busy.
That guy just sounds like he considers those in his care criminals who deserve to be punished. Not by brutal beatings or torture, but by hard labour and a little discomfort. I dont lose sleep over it...
In case you missed it the first sentence of my last post about the guillotine was directed at Stakhanov because his profile says he lives in Paris...
If there were to be a jailbreak, however, this guy would be the first to die <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
some guy who was buying some weed for his friends deserves to die b/c he ended up in prison?
Some one breaks into a house and steals a TV, he deserves to die?
Some one embezzles money from his company, he deserves to die?
Most people are not in prison for violent crimes.
Arawn, just think for a few seconds on what you are saying?
90% of the people you see walking around have committed a FELONY? (I am excluding Jaywalking, double parking and petty theft, things that are misdemeanors).
So 90% of the population of the US has done some actual crime? Just think again man.
And most of the people in jail deserve to die?
If these are your thoughts, then I suggest you move.
Now, for Marine:
You keep on missing my point in the other thread, each society creates their own morals, I never said that I agree with all of them. Thus why I said look in this thread if you want to see MY Morals.
Now, for the rest.
So what if there is technically a weaker member of society? That dosn't change the statement.
People in Jail are at the will of the system, we could do just about anything we wanted to them, and other countries do.
Basically, I see no socially redeeming factor to execution of people that could be rehabilitated, or of destroying some one's lively hood (lets see you get a job when you are branded as a thief, and made a cripple, I can't think of very many legal jobs that are open to one handed thieves).
And those are just extremes, I still see no reason to torture people (as that is how I view this man's prison), when we could be turning them into productive members of society.