Helps For The Newish Comm
Necrosis
The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Decent player, woeful comm...</div> Played for probably over a year now, or close to it.
Started learning how to comm, I have the rough basics, and I've read the walkthroughs, but I thought perhaps I could get some specifics.
1 - If I drop a P Lab in base and 3 clanners run past it despite me clicking them and giving them a "build at waypoint" order, why is that?
2 - How do I stop that early onos from appearing?
Commed on NS Nancy, got arms lab, obs, armoury all up, researched armour 1, had the rines intentionally rambo, capped 4 nodes in addition to starting node. Got Motion hacking right away, hoarded res for a big HA rush.
Which is when it fell apart. Marines rambo'd with the HA, without my commanding, and that was after 3 people ran past the p lab and not building it. They didn't get past mess hall, I tried to get a tfac down for a siege (lots and lots of res) but it never got built.. ended up spamming meds and ammo but at this point aliens had creamed main base. My relocate never happened since noone was building, and in the end i bounced out of the chair and just rushed the Onos in base in order to end the game quick.
Looking back on the game, I think the problems were threefold.
One would be my reaction time - when people started ramboing about without my sayso I found it hard to keep them adequately medded up.
Two would be my adherance to FOOD - when the rambo HA died I purposefully did NOT reequip them. I could have afforded it reswise but I didn't want to encourage more ramboing.
Three would be the odd tendency for my rines to ignore really important buildings, like a tfac to siege outside of mess, and a p lab in base so i could drop a load of HA.
Also, I did find that I had 300 res spare while the p lab was researching HA, so should I have dropped the plab earlier?? I usually open with IP, ARMOURY, OBS, ARMS LAB, and then start trying to research motion hacks, or armour 1, possible getting a few RTs along the way.
This seems to work because I end up with around 100-300 res, but when it comes to getting a train going the aliens are very quick to counter. I tried using the beacon but that just meant that people got their equipment but still rambo'd!!
Tips or advice, should I abandon FOOD or is there another part of the strat that I should change? Do I have anything right? Ta in advance...
Started learning how to comm, I have the rough basics, and I've read the walkthroughs, but I thought perhaps I could get some specifics.
1 - If I drop a P Lab in base and 3 clanners run past it despite me clicking them and giving them a "build at waypoint" order, why is that?
2 - How do I stop that early onos from appearing?
Commed on NS Nancy, got arms lab, obs, armoury all up, researched armour 1, had the rines intentionally rambo, capped 4 nodes in addition to starting node. Got Motion hacking right away, hoarded res for a big HA rush.
Which is when it fell apart. Marines rambo'd with the HA, without my commanding, and that was after 3 people ran past the p lab and not building it. They didn't get past mess hall, I tried to get a tfac down for a siege (lots and lots of res) but it never got built.. ended up spamming meds and ammo but at this point aliens had creamed main base. My relocate never happened since noone was building, and in the end i bounced out of the chair and just rushed the Onos in base in order to end the game quick.
Looking back on the game, I think the problems were threefold.
One would be my reaction time - when people started ramboing about without my sayso I found it hard to keep them adequately medded up.
Two would be my adherance to FOOD - when the rambo HA died I purposefully did NOT reequip them. I could have afforded it reswise but I didn't want to encourage more ramboing.
Three would be the odd tendency for my rines to ignore really important buildings, like a tfac to siege outside of mess, and a p lab in base so i could drop a load of HA.
Also, I did find that I had 300 res spare while the p lab was researching HA, so should I have dropped the plab earlier?? I usually open with IP, ARMOURY, OBS, ARMS LAB, and then start trying to research motion hacks, or armour 1, possible getting a few RTs along the way.
This seems to work because I end up with around 100-300 res, but when it comes to getting a train going the aliens are very quick to counter. I tried using the beacon but that just meant that people got their equipment but still rambo'd!!
Tips or advice, should I abandon FOOD or is there another part of the strat that I should change? Do I have anything right? Ta in advance...
Comments
Talk to me, Annhilator, Serphicx, or Jink Jink.
Also goto www.nslearn.org for articles on commanding.
Hehe thats not a thing you should do at all.... Anyways do what Firewater said I love those articles ^_^.
As I say, I did a lot of research on what makes a decent comm, as well as applying my own experience as a player, hehehe!
Firewater, if I can drag myself from Lunixmonster you may just see me on nslearn..... would be more constructive than practicing against bots to get the "feel" of the interface.
Edit: Cleaned the post up and added bits to better show that I found the nslearn article very handy reading as a prelim before I took to the commchair
i.e some kind of lameness outside the alien hive.
Let the marines know that it's you that are in charge(yeah right clanners), if they don't follow orders, scream to them or threathen them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Getting a stat-whoring c?anner to do something is often impossible.
Deprivation.
All of your resources must go to upgrades.
If you have some spare res, get a second observatory, research MT with the first, scan for hives with the other. No weapons. If they request meds and ammo without being in a critical place, screw them, they come free from the IP.
After the second hive is starting to build, issue a waypoint. Tell all your marines they get shotguns and HMGs if they follow waypoint. Get a PG there, siege spot. Be sure to recycle any other PGs besides MS and your siege spot PG. Shout, "PHASE PHASE PHASE!" repeatedly, over and over. And then lay your buildings down. Siege that. And then move onto their first hive.
Trust me, the lure of shotguns for following orders really works.
Another good trick is to shout, "Kill an alien RT! Win a shotgun!"
You have to bribe your uncooperative marines. And be sure to verbally abuse those who are stupid.
Oh, and make sure you do carry out your promises. Over team chat, say, "So and so gets a shotgun for following orders!" Lassiez faire.....
What Rapier7 suggests works nicely on bigger servers, because hes a Big Server Commander (Lords of Chaos is a 20 player server iirc). You don't need to give out meds and ammo because there are simply so many marines that keeping them alive and ammo'd up would be financially impracticle. On smaller servers, keeping your marines alive is an absolute priority. Dead marines don't hold ground, but on a bigger server, dead marines are repalced by live ones near by, so its no sweat.
Upgrades are also cost effective. Upgrade costs are the same no matter how large the server is. For a full 16 player server, for each marine armor 1 costs 2.8 res (excluding commander). On Rapier7's server, it costs a mere 2.2 res per marine. The more players, the more cost effective upgrades are because they affect more marines for the same amount of res; thats why he suggests pumping large amounts of money into upgrades. This is not always the case for smaller servers.
Rapier7 can afford to not equip his marines. Thats why the FOOD and bribery principles work nicely. On smaller servers, these principles simply do not work because you need all of your marines equipped or else you won't have enough fire power. You simply can't afford to say "No, you don't listen so you don't get HA"; you need all the power you can get.
You must differenciate from Big Server tactics and Small Server tactics. Big Server tacics do not work with Small servers, but Small server tactics work even better in Big Servers. Thats why its best to learn small server tactics to be an even better big server commander.
Personally I think not giving meds and ammo is absurd, big or small server, unless the marine is in base.
It probably hinged on my adherence to FOOD. If I'd spammed the HA, HMG, GLs, and Welders continually then I might have fought on due to blind luck. I think I did what was morally right tho because I didn't reward rambos. Some of them quit the server, which is sad, but at the end of the day if you don't follow orders I don't see why you qualify for stuff....... even with 300 res spare in the "bank".
Next game I try, I'll go for a more lenient approach.. but somehow I just see it ending with 7 marines running around the corridors getting destroyed by fades, lol.
If you can keep the enemy down to 2 rts, then you either won't see an onos or you won't see a hive (or at least a defended one). Win-win really, since a one hive onos is just going to get slaughtered anyway. I'd be more worried about the fades.
Meds and ammo are only useful in the right places.
And 3/1 Weapon/Armor is the best combo for big servers.
And small server tactics usually don't work big server. You can't afford to hand out shotguns like candy like you can on small servers. Not to mention you assume that in small servers, they are full of clan members, not morons who lame up eveyr part of the map with OCs or turrets.
Meds and ammo are only useful in the right places.
And 3/1 Weapon/Armor is the best combo for big servers.
And small server tactics usually don't work big server. You can't afford to hand out shotguns like candy like you can on small servers. Not to mention you assume that in small servers, they are full of clan members, not morons who lame up eveyr part of the map with OCs or turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
low-level pubs ftw
I base all my replies off high-level pubs. There are very few servers where I tolerate to play in. All of which have large regular bases and strict admins. They're not clan members, but occationally some stop by. Otherwise i wouldn't be giving out 'Find better servers' advice. Heres a quick test: If you need to say "Phase through" more than 3 times, the server is bad, and you need to get off it.
"Hey X, get back there and build that proto lab, doesn't anyone want HA? Get back here!!"
But no dice. All cool though, because in the end I dropped him no meds/ammo/armour/guns.
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If you can keep the enemy down to 2 rts, then you either won't see an onos or you won't see a hive (or at least a defended one). Win-win really, since a one hive onos is just going to get slaughtered anyway. I'd be more worried about the fades.
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Unfortunately I'm familiar with the alien strats, and even on 2 rts they still have at least one Onos. I worry do worry about fades more, though.
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Not to mention you assume that in small servers, they are full of clan members, not morons who lame up eveyr part of the map with OCs or turrets.
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I know the people on the server, so it was odd to see SOME suddenly rambo, and have clanners walk right past structures that I needed built. In the future, I'll have even less trust in those people. Thankfully the server has a lot of regs, so I know who I can rely on for which task <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Its definitely not a low level pub.......... no turret spamming unless we're mucking about at endgame, and only OC spam if we're rushing somewhere and don't want the marines getting back out. Or if there's been an odd relocate and we want to lame up main spawn. But thats beside the point.
If it was a bad server, then I'd be handing out the blame there. If it was totally bad comming, then I'd accept it, as I did on another horrible loss. But in this case I thought I did the right thing, got the right upgrades, was getting right into my endgame HA train...... but then it fell apart. I can't understand it, so thats why I'm after the opinions.
I shall have to investigate NS learn....... and on my next comming game I'm going to be less tight on FOOD.
Cheap but deadly. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My mic is incomprehensible. I've tried to fix the settings, more updates as I have them.
qwerasdfzxcv
and you'll be fine.
Aliens had an onos
You had to seige an area near mess
You had 200 res when you dropped a protolab
You had to use HA
It is best to either choose between an armslab first or an obs, not both. You need the early res to drop rts and keep your marines healthy.
In the early game, your goal should be to lay down your rts and kill theirs. You should be able to walk all over skulks and take down their nodes, until fades arrive.
After the fades appear, your goal should be to try to keep your nodes and most importantly stop the second hive from going up. Your chances for victory depend on what happens with the second hive. If it goes down, you are almost certainly going to win. If it goes down, you have to fall back on the absurdly overpowered HA to win.
If you have the res, and your arms lab is upgrading, drop shotguns and welders. There is no reason you should have 200 res saved up.
From what it sounds like, your goal was more like get HA then destroy the aliens. It should have been, kill their rts and stop their second hive. If you have extra res, then get HA.
<b>FOOD is nonsense</b>. When for lack of directions a marine rambos, he'll do so <i>again and again</i> regardless of equipment until a coordinated/lucrative sounding effort gets off the ground.
The less successful most rambos are, the quicker they'll fall in line the moment you provide something to go along with. So the crappy rambos only in rare and extremely delusional cases keep on doing it - and the succesful rambos, well who cares? They're succsessful, and thats all that matters.
Marines just don't like to sit on their **** - unless you specifically tell them to and preferrably even why they're doing it. Otherwise people like to play offensive and kill everything they see - which makes sense, since its the best way to win a game. <i>Sooooo... what does this mean?</i>
This means, one of the biggest weapons you have as a commander is not a tech plan, or a building plan or a whole lot of meds (these things are all necessary, but extremely easy to accomplish) - its an <b>attack plan</b>. Rambos always pour randomly towards the enemy, sometimes via the route of least resistance but more often than not over the dumbest and most expensive route - leading to an inevitable loss short of a brute force win. A good example is how without direction your marines will <b>practically never</b> make a push through to Port Engine from Aux Gen on ns_nancy - the easiest route to the upper level, unlike cargo which I can gaurantee will have some Skulks and OCs.
You should have no problem seeing the strong and weakspots in the map and the enemys defense with just a modicum of practice - and just encourage your marines to do the sensible thing. Don't be afraid to micromanage - its practically the only thing you've got to do anyway. Tell them to stay at base to regroup occasionally - make sure they build your structures via voice, make sure you have enough IPs once the need arises (~3-5 minutes into the game usually) and just make sure they're doing things that make sense.
With the micromanagement approach on pubs also comes a small problem - theres always a certain amount of non-listening people. Sometimes they can throw a wrench right where it hurts - attacking something they shouldn't, running out of base when you're yelling at them to pickup the SG and gaurd - all those little things that are really, really annoying. Most of the time though, you can just predict what they'll be doing and factor that into any plans you make - don't be afraid to med or ammo up <i>anyone</i> useful, always keep an eye on the minimap for red dots, soldier under attack warnings et cetera. It improves responsiveness, morale and usefulness of any soldier - only spend beyond the bare minimum on someone standing a chance of being extrordinairy useful though - thats usually only applicable for groups. Gah, I'm trailing off. Back on topic :
Give your marines directions constantly. You'll want to be short and concise - don't blabber about - stick with the bare minimum to keep voice clear, and encourage your team to mute anyone that doesn't (before you mute him yourself, since its annoying as **** ). For starters those directions can be fairly stupid - but as you progress, you should try to focus on a nicely orchestrated offense, exploiting anything the aliens forget to do. It doesn't really matter though - even relatively stupid orders on public servers will work better than "Ok, get me nodes".
And uh yeah, as far as capping nodes goes, just have your teams cap them as they go by - nodes that can't be capped this way are always by-aggression nodes, so just have your worst shot cap it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> (By aggression means it is usually partially or completed blocked off by the a node ahead of it - example pushing into port engine, you have Mother by aggression and don't need to waste more than 1 persons time on it)
Kay, this little essay ended up <b>way</b> less coherent than I had hoped for. Oh well. Oh, before I forget : Don't randomly throw down Phasegates in positions that aren't really very useful - Mother may be a Hive for example, but putting a PG next to the node earlygame is a waste of res and prone to get you in trouble later on (its a very tight spot, cornering people that Phase in). Instead try using them where they combine safety vs current Alien lifeforms with places you want to go - like Sub Tunnel, which is easily defended against Skulks and lets you Phase right into the most popular place on Nancy.
And before I forget : Don't rely on HA rushes alone - unless you've kept them down either a few nodes or a Hive, its going to be difficult to pull off (in your example they must have had 4 Nodes + 2 Hives for ~10 minutes or more). Also never keep res lying around just because. Just don't. Time isn't on your side against 2 Hives and a steady ressource income - blow things up ASAP.
2. I assume your comming in a pub, and having them rambo the begenning is also viable since it usually push's more marine pressure and allows for massive undefended node capping. But, if your ha pushing you reall do need to be quick to take down hives or major areas of combat. If your marines start to rambo may I suggest the 3 step plan (Distress Beacon, WayPoint, Spam). First you distress to group them, then you waypoint and tell them to phase or walk (If they dont listen) then spam the command. Ie: right click on the waypoint over and over till they finally realize you want them to go somewhere. If they keep disregarding the order distress beacon them again and hope they get the message.
3. Slowing their onos boils down to slowing their res flow. I suggest early pressure (maybe early shotgun) to take nodes down. If you kill 1 or 2 nodes that will slow down onos appearence for about 1-3 minutes depending on team size etc.
My mic blows, so my orders were incoherent. Its a crappy mic, its bound to Alt, it sounds like I'm underwater. I'm going to try to get a better one.
Second, I'm obsessed with HA. I know HA trains win games. However, this is not the case if all I'm doing is rushing HA. I keep saying the tech rush is not viable, but for some reason I fall into the trap of trying it *every time*. This will be corrected.
Good tips all round, I can see where I'm going wrong now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If I'm a 2 hive onos and there's an HA train, each and every one of them will die.
For example, Heavies are just downright impractical for assaulting a hive like ventilation on hera. That hive just SCREAMS jetpack me to death because its so huge. Heavies are also impracticle in very tighknit places, because the shotgun pellets usually end up in the back of your marines rather than on the skulks.
You must analyse the situation and act accordingly.
yes, thats what we do if were 8 years old and want to throw a tissy fit
come on be mature. anyways I think its just as importent to analize your marines as well as the surroundings.
if I have a good team of smart decent marines I'll totally go for a heavy train or fase rush . but if my teams not so good and kinda dumb. I'll usually try to rely on more siegeing
if I have 1 great player I'll just give him a JP GL and let him wreck havoc on all the aliens
you need to know what kind of team you have to help use the best course of action
What an absolutely childish and petty thing to do. I'd kick you for it. In fact the server I play on would kick you for it to, iirc.
I've seen so called "lost" games turn into victories, so I wouldn't be spiteful or hateful enough to recycle everything just because things didn't go my way in the first x minutes.