So I E-mailed Angel Munoz
camO_o
Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28028Members
Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28028Members
<div class="IPBDescription">NS @ the winter cpl?</div> for those of you who don't know, the CPL is a bi-annual lan party which plays host to some of the biggest events in the competitive gaming world, and Angel Munoz is its founder. you can go ahead and google up Angel if you'd like, but that's not the point here... if you've already checked the front page at n-s.org, you've probably noticed a few paragraphs about the CPL. first of all, and I apologize in advance to flayra or whoever chose to write that, but let me make it clear that the front page update is sheer BS. out of a total of fifty signups, ten people showed, and the "finals" between TAU + Cri was just a pug game with an additional two players picked up here and there. however, i think the ten players that did show up (plus flayra himself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) did an awesome job of representing the community. anyways... the following is a transcript of my email, it's a bit long though (i really tried to keep it short for the man :\).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi, my name is Andy "camO" Lin, and I'm an employee at AmpedNews.com as part of their Natural Selection division. Don't worry, this isn't some request for an interview, in fact, I'm writing this to thank you for allowing SolarCurve to host the Natural Selection BYOC event at the CPL, even if you weren't directly involved. I wasn't at the event myself (I'm gonna need to get a car next time :-P), but for such a competitive needle-in-the-haystack to make an appearance at the CPL, no matter how small, is always a great thing for its community.
I know you probably get a lot of e-mail, so I'll try to keep this short. Natural Selection was the first game I'd ever been involved with at a competitive level (although I'd heard about CAL and other various leagues before), but I've never regretted the experience. I'm not the kinda guy who signs up for any sports teams, so the experience of playing a game to win was completely new to me, but I must say I enjoyed it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->. For obvious reasons, I want to see Natural Selection grow competitively, but giving the current state of the community, it looks like competitive NS may be at the end of its line.
Personally, I'm trying to do my part for the community by helping administrate and webmaster for the Natural Selection Invitational tournament you may (or may not) have heard about (http://nsi.momentofimpact.us/), but I'm worried as to the future of the NS competitive community as a whole. Compared with last CAL season, scrims are even more scarce then before, and the recent CAL playoffs (ftp://ftp.caleague.com/division_nso/playoffs.htm) were a joke. Frankly, I think the NS competitive community will be dead before long.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a direct request for support from the CPL at all. I understand that you guys have a business to run, and can't just hand out checks to anyone who writes a plea over email, especially for games whose BYOC event resulted in only ten turnouts. However, I was hoping you could provide a more moral form of support for the community, like giving us a second chance at the CPL next year with a BYOC tourney, or maybe something so simple as an encouraging a word or two to the community in reply to this e-mail, in order to encourage them to continue playing NS. Honestly, I don't know if there is anything else, anyone can do to support the NS community short of organizing a hundred thousand dollar tournament at the Winter CPL.
Finally, I'd like to apologize on behalf of the community for our pathetic showing at the CPL last week. There've been NS LANs in the past that were quite successful, but most people simply couldn't afford the hotel and travel fees for the CPL. Or maybe the venue name scared them off. Nonetheless, I'd like to thank you again for providing the event at all, and even more so for meeting with the NS players that did go. You're probably a very busy man, so I wouldn't blame you if you didn't to reply to this e-mail, but I'd greatly appreciate it if you did. Thanks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
- camO<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
his response was pretty short, given that he's probably got a million other more important emails to respond to, he did mention that he is looking forward to "more development" on the game, in particular a Half-Life 2 port. i've been a firm believer myself that HL2 will have what it takes to bring competitive NS to the next level, given that it's executed properly. he also mentioned that NS is welcome again at the BYOC during the winter event, which was of course, a silly question in the first place as it doesn't take much to be approved for a BYOC but...
"With a bit of an early start I'm sure the NS community could have a great showing at our events."
i'm in no position myself to organize, much less find a sponsor for the BYOC during the winter event, but hopefully SolarCurve will be willing to give it another shot. if, however, we do get another BYOC, how many of you will be willing to go, given what you know now about this year's CPL? what would convince you to go during the next event? finally, how do you feel about the state of competitive NS and what can be done to improve it? will a halflife 2 port/remake make any difference?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi, my name is Andy "camO" Lin, and I'm an employee at AmpedNews.com as part of their Natural Selection division. Don't worry, this isn't some request for an interview, in fact, I'm writing this to thank you for allowing SolarCurve to host the Natural Selection BYOC event at the CPL, even if you weren't directly involved. I wasn't at the event myself (I'm gonna need to get a car next time :-P), but for such a competitive needle-in-the-haystack to make an appearance at the CPL, no matter how small, is always a great thing for its community.
I know you probably get a lot of e-mail, so I'll try to keep this short. Natural Selection was the first game I'd ever been involved with at a competitive level (although I'd heard about CAL and other various leagues before), but I've never regretted the experience. I'm not the kinda guy who signs up for any sports teams, so the experience of playing a game to win was completely new to me, but I must say I enjoyed it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->. For obvious reasons, I want to see Natural Selection grow competitively, but giving the current state of the community, it looks like competitive NS may be at the end of its line.
Personally, I'm trying to do my part for the community by helping administrate and webmaster for the Natural Selection Invitational tournament you may (or may not) have heard about (http://nsi.momentofimpact.us/), but I'm worried as to the future of the NS competitive community as a whole. Compared with last CAL season, scrims are even more scarce then before, and the recent CAL playoffs (ftp://ftp.caleague.com/division_nso/playoffs.htm) were a joke. Frankly, I think the NS competitive community will be dead before long.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a direct request for support from the CPL at all. I understand that you guys have a business to run, and can't just hand out checks to anyone who writes a plea over email, especially for games whose BYOC event resulted in only ten turnouts. However, I was hoping you could provide a more moral form of support for the community, like giving us a second chance at the CPL next year with a BYOC tourney, or maybe something so simple as an encouraging a word or two to the community in reply to this e-mail, in order to encourage them to continue playing NS. Honestly, I don't know if there is anything else, anyone can do to support the NS community short of organizing a hundred thousand dollar tournament at the Winter CPL.
Finally, I'd like to apologize on behalf of the community for our pathetic showing at the CPL last week. There've been NS LANs in the past that were quite successful, but most people simply couldn't afford the hotel and travel fees for the CPL. Or maybe the venue name scared them off. Nonetheless, I'd like to thank you again for providing the event at all, and even more so for meeting with the NS players that did go. You're probably a very busy man, so I wouldn't blame you if you didn't to reply to this e-mail, but I'd greatly appreciate it if you did. Thanks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
- camO<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
his response was pretty short, given that he's probably got a million other more important emails to respond to, he did mention that he is looking forward to "more development" on the game, in particular a Half-Life 2 port. i've been a firm believer myself that HL2 will have what it takes to bring competitive NS to the next level, given that it's executed properly. he also mentioned that NS is welcome again at the BYOC during the winter event, which was of course, a silly question in the first place as it doesn't take much to be approved for a BYOC but...
"With a bit of an early start I'm sure the NS community could have a great showing at our events."
i'm in no position myself to organize, much less find a sponsor for the BYOC during the winter event, but hopefully SolarCurve will be willing to give it another shot. if, however, we do get another BYOC, how many of you will be willing to go, given what you know now about this year's CPL? what would convince you to go during the next event? finally, how do you feel about the state of competitive NS and what can be done to improve it? will a halflife 2 port/remake make any difference?
Comments
I feel that fundamental gameplay flaws were made in the current desgin of Natural Selection. Natural Selection has made its impact on the Half Life gaming community, and I think the majority of people know about the game, but choose to play CS / DoD. If NS were to port to Half-Life 2 it would need a new gameplay desgin, as the current one is not working out for NS, and in order to respark interest, it would once again need impressive graphics.
does no one care, or does the fact that this might be a serious discussion on the future of ns blow everyone's mind?
does no one care, or does the fact that this might be a serious discussion on the future of ns blow everyone's mind? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possibly. Then again they just could be scared off by a post greater than 2 paragraphs.
NS clan scene is far from dying, although it certainly could do with some more activity. Out of all the clanners in the ns community, only a handful are >18, own a car, have a job, and are willing to travel.
Of that handful, only a few are confident enough to attend CPL.
I think it's just a matter of time. When the community matures, we will not only have more people who fit into the above catagories, but more people organising events, scrimming, and bettering their skills.
NS can only grow.
<i>Slow competitive games down.</i>
- Slow the early game marine expansion
- Less emphasis on fades
- Greater choice/flexibility for early game aliens
- Games that last more than 10 minutes
<i>Speed public games up </i>
- Make teamwork and organisation more intuitive.
- Boost hive 3 aliens ( stop trying to balance these abilities for combat mode at the expense of classic)
- Boost hivesight, help alien coordination (e.g dynamic SOF - sof applied on any marine who remains within an alien's view, hive sight overlayed on minimap)
- no more end game stalemates
NS is slowly dying everytime releases get delayed. You'll notice that everytime a new version is released, numbers spark up and so do servers. However when the same version has been around for several weeks, player numbers start fading again. Natural Selection's most major flaw is that the teamwork which is required to win isn't that simple to get going in public games, and as UKchaos said, if they can make teamwork more intuitive, more natural in NS, it will start growing again.
A resigned HL2 port would be awesome..
With regards to the winter CPL, I don't think that having an NS tourney in December right before Christmas would bring too many people. The best bet would be to wait till summer CPL 2005 for another try at a BYOC tourney.
<b>[Time for a witty comment]</b>
Yes, but what grows will eventually die out, its just the question...When?
with so many casual players getting frustrated and dropping the game so quickly, it's no wonder the competitive community isn't getting anywhere. let's take a look at the player:clan ratio from some of the more well-known games, like DOD or CS.
the following information is taken from the steampowered.com stats page and the caleague.com site. since there's no real way to judge how many people play each game, I just went by the amount of hours played.
i only included half the czero hours because most competitive players do not play czero on a regular basis, so they don't find it too hard to adjust back during matches etc.
CS: 3.006 billion hours + (czero hours / 2)= :: 3838 teams, 3661 of which are in CAL-O =
~850000 hours p/month played to each team
DOD: 222.012 million hours :: 283 teams =
~785000 hours p/ month played to each team
NS: 67.259 million hours :: 31 teams (CAL page is inaccurate, i only added teams i know are still alive) =
~2169645 hours p/month played to each team
notice the huge 3x gap? even if I hadn't removed the inactive teams, we would still be down to about a million hours. the problem with the clan community isn't how popular NS is, or how balanced it is or isn't, it's that most of the community isn't involved in any sort of competitive play.
Yup, thats it in a nutshell. NS has no problem attracting new players, its just that your average FPS player doesnt have the patience to endure the various bugs, balance issues and quirks of the game.
Besides, even if you fix all of NS's flaws, the depth and complexity of the game would still turn many away. Its the same reason Football is more popular than Chess (lazy analogy, but you get my drift).
NS is too hard for many people
Yes, it's true... I know some people don;t believe it (Hell, I know a 6 year old thatll kick MOST of yer butts... his name is Mini-Me) But this is a VERY Complex game...
It need a single player mode or, at LEAST, some sort of a tuitorial to play thru to EASE people into the game... I can tell you how frustrating it is to be thrown into the midle of the game with EXPERIENCED people kicking my **** left and right...
Now, the question is... what can we do about it...
-There is no spoon
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->, just felt like saying that...
But seriously, how can we EASE people into this game???
wait... no...
<b>[Time for a witty comment]</b>
Yes, but what grows will eventually die out, its just the question...When? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is not the universe growing as we speak? And will never die?
(Ugh, now we get to these "closed" universe ideas where the "big crunch" happens all very nastily in a few eons...)
--
SentrySteve, link to new resource system? I have seen posts on many, but most are flawed in some way or another. I would like to see one that speeds up public play and draws out clan play.
camO.o, "unknown" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Tbh, if people quit because they can't handle somone on their team is "not good enough", then, quite frankly, I wouldn't want them in the NS community anyway. It is THEIR fault for not HELPING that person develop, not the dev's fault for making the game complicated!
As UKchaos suggests, this game is far more like Chess than Football. It takes time to learn, and longer to play well. The community is getting somewhere; just not quickly.
Personally I would prefer a community of skilled players who help each other (and newbs too,) over a community of people who have just popped-in and dont really want to bother helping anyone else develop.
BulletHead sums this up nicely; NS is too hard for many people.
This, is NOT a problem.
1 clan comes in it place it seems <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This has ment that if there is one good player (lets say verty <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) then everyone will camp the team he is going on. Therefor making the game one sided.
I do consider myself lucky enough to be playing NS from the day of its public release and was therefor able to learn with the majority of the community. I have watched countless JP/HMG rushes and countless double hive sieges from processing.
Unfrtunatly new players that come into the game just cant compete with a vetran stacked team.
Also on a side note: Remove focus, its the bain of 3.0X
with so many casual players getting frustrated and dropping the game so quickly, it's no wonder the competitive community isn't getting anywhere. let's take a look at the player:clan ratio from some of the more well-known games, like DOD or CS.
the following information is taken from the steampowered.com stats page and the caleague.com site. since there's no real way to judge how many people play each game, I just went by the amount of hours played.
i only included half the czero hours because most competitive players do not play czero on a regular basis, so they don't find it too hard to adjust back during matches etc.
CS: 3.006 billion hours + (czero hours / 2)= :: 3838 teams, 3661 of which are in CAL-O =
~850000 hours p/month played to each team
DOD: 222.012 million hours :: 283 teams =
~785000 hours p/ month played to each team
NS: 67.259 million hours :: 31 teams (CAL page is inaccurate, i only added teams i know are still alive) =
~2169645 hours p/month played to each team
notice the huge 3x gap? even if I hadn't removed the inactive teams, we would still be down to about a million hours. the problem with the clan community isn't how popular NS is, or how balanced it is or isn't, it's that most of the community isn't involved in any sort of competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
good job Camo, I have seen better math pounded out by sixth graders.
not only do you take the total amount of minutes played by every single player (pub+competitve) of a particular mod, you are also able to assume that CAL's list of teams is the only one in existence.
and to the people praising ns for it's "complexity", you obviously need to play a little bit more of natures selectors. THE COMMANDER DROPS YOU WEAPONS INSTEAD OF BUYING IT YOURSELF, THE MONEY IS NAMED RESOURCES THAT COME OUT A ELECTRIC SOCKET, THERE ARE MULTIPLE CLASSES AND THE ONLY STRATS THAT WORK ARE DC/FADES AND PHASEGATES??? WTH TOO COMPLEX FOR MEEEEE
complexity dosen't mean ****, so you people need to get off your "wow my **** is bigger than those mindless csers because i play a game with resources and buildings!" trip.
also, that chess and football analogy is horrible; most likely there are way more rules for football then there is for chess. i must admit, memorizing all the ways that the chess pieces can move was pretty diffcult, but i believe that it was worth it, now that my **** is bigger then those mindless footballer players.
complexity dosen't mean ****, so you people need to get off your "wow my **** is bigger than those mindless csers because i play a game with resources and buildings!" trip. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A
M
E
N
But it's that a bad thing ? I dont think so. Even as the NS community will not evolve to that grade of competive play like CS it will find their place and will get recognized.
A HL2-Port is a must to attract new players.
Anyone who can figure out how to play StarCraft can figure out Natural Selection.
And, If you cant figure out how to play Starcraft......
not only do you take the total amount of minutes played by every single player (pub+competitve) of a particular mod, you are also able to assume that CAL's list of teams is the only one in existence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point of using hours divided by CAL teams is to show that for every x hours played, there are that many clans for counter-strike. for ns, the value of x is three times as large, showing a higher ratio of players to clans. of course cal isn't the only list of teams, but it's a good enough estimate. for future reference, next time you come up with an argument try to make it make sense <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and to the people praising ns for it's "complexity", you obviously need to play a little bit more of natures selectors. THE COMMANDER DROPS YOU WEAPONS INSTEAD OF BUYING IT YOURSELF, THE MONEY IS NAMED RESOURCES THAT COME OUT A ELECTRIC SOCKET, THERE ARE MULTIPLE CLASSES AND THE ONLY STRATS THAT WORK ARE DC/FADES AND PHASEGATES??? WTH TOO COMPLEX FOR MEEEEE
complexity dosen't mean ****, so you people need to get off your "wow my **** is bigger than those mindless csers because i play a game with resources and buildings!" trip.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are your purposely being stupid, or were you just born that way? it looks to me that you have no freaking clue as to what's being discussed. ns is a hundred times more difficult to learn than CS or DOD, and when you've learned all the basics, it takes another hundred years to learn the game flow. most people who play pub-only never learn it, in fact. this is why most people don't want to form clans, they get stomped on and owned.
BrigadierWolf: NS is much more difficult to learn, given that there is no updated manual, tutorial levels, or anything to the like. when you first start the game, you're thrown into a game experience unlike anything most people have ever experienced. some people get frustrated with learning and quit, while a few stay on and play the game.
The only reason probably that NS will never become an organized game for the CPL is because i bet over half of the people/teams that sign up to go would be the last mintue "crap, i can't go i just remebered i had to do something."
even if there was a hundred thousand dollar prize who would be dedicated enough to go?
eh, I'll add my piece into this too. This is what I think. NS is failing because of its inginuity. You have a FPS/RTS hybrid which really doesn't appeal to either.
People who are fans of RTS games are really into strategy and thinking on their feet. They do NOT enjoy playing a rts where the accuracy of a player is beyond bad and they do not want to play a game where the people do not follow orders. They can just go back to starcraft because marines shoot 100% of the time at exactly where you want them and the scvs build when you tell them to. Your fun strategy is going down the drain when your team sucks and the alien team you're playing is too good. I play dawn of war a ton now and I have to say, It is a **** ton more fun to play than to comm a ns game because you dont have to worry about a team that wont follow your orders or can't shoot what you want them to shoot.
Secondly, this does not appeal to FPS players such as cs players either. I know when I go 20:2 in a cs server I feel damn good about myself and it is fun for me. In CAL-cs you can have 1 guy on your team carry teh team for you just like dod or ut2k4. In NS you can't really. If your team sucks balls and you have the best ns player in existance you can still lose eventually ( slowly but eventually ). There is so much more emphasis on team cohesion that people get frustrated when they're the best player in their clan and they constantly lose because of other people's lack of skill. They leave and go join another team which has players like them and there you have it, our current CAL-ns clan tree with teams like terror, blackmarket, and exigent which are made up of other clan's best players.
What you have here now is a top heavy competative scene, a game that does not appeal to that many fps players and does not appeal to too many rts players.
There are plenty of games that mix genres but still end up being greater than the sum of their parts (GTA3, Deus Ex etc)
NS doesnt have to appeal to fans of established genres, as long as its fun and easy to get into, it will be popular.
I never liked platform games but i still bought POP simply because its fun.
NS is too hard for many people
Yes, it's true... I know some people don;t believe it (Hell, I know a 6 year old thatll kick MOST of yer butts... his name is Mini-Me) But this is a VERY Complex game...
It need a single player mode or, at LEAST, some sort of a tuitorial to play thru to EASE people into the game... I can tell you how frustrating it is to be thrown into the midle of the game with EXPERIENCED people kicking my **** left and right...
Now, the question is... what can we do about it...
-There is no spoon
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->, just felt like saying that...
But seriously, how can we EASE people into this game??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we all went through the new player phase, getting called noob and what not...now didn't we? Did we suck it up and get through it and improve? indeed..regardless of learning how to play being placed in a training course will not improve you.
I remember joining in in 1.04 getting called a nub, of course I really didnt know what I was doing, all I do alien..listen to the gorge...only have 1 or 2 gorges cause they need to suck up all the res, hell I even thought gorge was a battle class.. Point is you learn, just like any mod or any game.