Fix Turrets
Nadagast
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6884Members
Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6884Members
<div class="IPBDescription">please?</div> k I know it's everyone's favorite game when the marines have a turret farm and a PG in both of the other hives and you wait 25 minutes until they get HA and kill you, futily running around dying to millions of well placed turrets, but seriously isn't this getting old? I mean I know removing turrets/OCs would totally shatter almost all elite pub strategies but honestly it needs to be done. At least make turrets do 2 damage or something.
The bottom line is turrets need to be severely reduced in power or removed. There is just no way to make a game of NS with 2 turret farmed + PG'd hives fun. The game is over at 5 minutes then you wait 20 minutes to die.
Call me elitest or whatever I really don't care.
Edit: I'm talking about in pub play, but I expect if some clan was lame (****) enough to try it this strategy would work beautifully in a clan game.
Edit2: Yeah I'd like to see OCs removed from pub play as well, but they aren't as game shattering as it's hard to get enough of them so that 1 or 2 LMG marines can't kill them easily (notice how plain 0 res marines can kill OCs but a skulk has 0 chance of killing a turret), and if they do, just siege or GL it. Aliens need 2 hives (bilebomb) to even have a chance at killing any mass of turrets, if there is a PG there. Plus OCs are just used as an excuse to say that someone isn't res whoring, because fading and dropping a bunch of OCs isn't really just the same thing isn't it?!?!? The only difference is the piles of OCs suck and the fade is actually useful
Edit3: Oh and <b>fix the downloads page PLEASE?</b> Lots of new people get discouraged or just plain don't try NS because about 90% of the download links are broken. If you're trying to get more people to play NS this is definately a huge deterrent. Just remove the broken links.
The bottom line is turrets need to be severely reduced in power or removed. There is just no way to make a game of NS with 2 turret farmed + PG'd hives fun. The game is over at 5 minutes then you wait 20 minutes to die.
Call me elitest or whatever I really don't care.
Edit: I'm talking about in pub play, but I expect if some clan was lame (****) enough to try it this strategy would work beautifully in a clan game.
Edit2: Yeah I'd like to see OCs removed from pub play as well, but they aren't as game shattering as it's hard to get enough of them so that 1 or 2 LMG marines can't kill them easily (notice how plain 0 res marines can kill OCs but a skulk has 0 chance of killing a turret), and if they do, just siege or GL it. Aliens need 2 hives (bilebomb) to even have a chance at killing any mass of turrets, if there is a PG there. Plus OCs are just used as an excuse to say that someone isn't res whoring, because fading and dropping a bunch of OCs isn't really just the same thing isn't it?!?!? The only difference is the piles of OCs suck and the fade is actually useful
Edit3: Oh and <b>fix the downloads page PLEASE?</b> Lots of new people get discouraged or just plain don't try NS because about 90% of the download links are broken. If you're trying to get more people to play NS this is definately a huge deterrent. Just remove the broken links.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
You dont realize that a hive with a pg, and elect tfac and 6-8 turrets will not die to fades, even 3-4 unless the marine team completly ignors it.
Next a 2 hive lockdown would only really work against aliens that have a side hive (where you lock down the middle one and just scout the side one, now this is an effective and lame strategy). This is more of a map flaw and one hive lockdown than anything, like on veil where you can't go from side hive to side hive easily at all. And this isn't really a 2 hive lockdown, it's a one hive lockdown because of a cramped map design.
Other maps like nothing, caged, are too big for a middle hive lockdown to work.
Otherwise if generally what happens is that aliens start with middle hive, marines go to one hive lock it down and spend like 50ish res on turrets and then other hive they start locking it down and fades appear and kick the marine's nuts out of there, hive 2 starts going up and marines are short of upgrades to stop the fades.
If turrets were easy to use in clan play they'd be used more often, but I think spending 10 res on a turret over a shotgun is generally a bad move, as the shotgun has way more killing potential.
Honestly I don't think turrets are that much of a problem, 1300 hp a piece they are easy enough to kill, I'd say what is worse is electricity, as say a 6000 hp RT has way more stopping power agaisnt things like skulks and stuff
I suggested to Flayra that he could make elec RT zap your adren instead of hp, he seemed to like it (so elec RT's can never kill you, and packs of skulks would be able to take them down with ease, and cost would be lowered down to 20 res)
Yes this is a really good point, a regen fade wouldn't even be dented by turrets with overflowing regen because armor would stay full.
Turrets are merely a problem for skulks. A fade or a onos at any level can destroy a turretfarm.
As Nadagast said, its the phasegate and the shotgunners.
Its simple to me. The higher lifeforms are way too easy to kill. Especially the Lerk.
I know the statistics and how devastating good fades can be, but we are talking about pub play here, and there are rarely such elite fades.
Marines pack way too much firepower. The turrets are merely annoying. A Hive one Onos with regen can walk into any farm and snuff the TF. Its the marines that kill him. And the turrets that block his escape route.
In 1.4, I played marines only because it was more challenging. Aliens were powerfull and deadly and the very moment the fades showed up meant trouble.
Skulks were quite tough too.
Today, I play aliens for the same resons. Its more difficulty. Any half decent comm that knows how to use an armslab and a bunch of people who are at least able to pretend that they are intelligent can win a game.
Eliminating static defence would severely nerf the fun of the game, as it would cut one of the stretegic aspects.
Building and fortifying outposts and strategic positions is one of the key elemtents that make the game apealing for me.
There are more sublte ways of balancing the game than eliminating turrets.
Posible solutions i can think of could be as following.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Maybe eliminate the elctrification upgrades, to make the outposts and rts more vulnerable against skulks. Its way to easy to secure 3 nodes and tech up right now.
Also, there would be an increased chance of blind spots at TFs for those clever skulks</span>
-----------<span style='color:orange'>Strike this one,I just read forlorns Idea about elec damadging adreanaline and that really sounds reasonable</span>---------------
Just make the the higher evolutions (fade and onos) not clip on turrets. Fades might be able to blink through buildings and an Onso could be large enough to simply walk over such small objects as sentries. I really don't know if this would be hard to code, but it would at least make escaping from a Base easiser if the attack turns out to be unsuccessfull.
Improve redemption.
Raise the armour values. Aliens are wet tissue paper agaist upgraded weapons. I know about balance and and stuff, but the HMGs damadge at lvl3 is ridiculous.
Especially lerks are a waste of res. Of course they have spores and umbra, and thus are menat for supporting Onoses at endgame and anoy rhines at early game.
Inbetween they are dead meat and plain useless. He was desinged as jetpackcounter or so I thought. Yet it is by far easier to kill a lerk as jetpacekr with a shotty as its vice versa.
Building and fortifying outposts and strategic positions is one of the key elemtents that make the game apealing for me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bet you 100 bucks if a public vote was held more people would say they prefer no static defenses over static defenses.
The problem with the said poll however is that the people who can't stand static defenses don't play the game, but even still I bet you my side of the poll would win.
I think static defenses can stay, but just so that they are mild support. I think static defenses should be wasted by any competant force the aliens have to offer, whether it be skulks and lerks or several fades.
Look at any good RTS, good players don't get too much of static defenses except as temporary holdover's untill they can get bigger units to come out because they know bigger units totally walk all over static defenses.
I've always been a fan of making static defenses cheaper and easier to pruduce, at the expense of making them weaker (such as throwing in a hard counter).
Like turrets that cost 5, deal 7, take 5 seconds to build but spores would block 1/3 of all turret bullets. (and umbra block 1/2)
Or OC's that cost 5, deal same amount of damage, but only have 550 HP (that's one lv. 1 LMG clip)
But meh.
Sure. Thats compeltely reasonable. Still its a part of the game to fortify positions and if it is just to defend the phasegate from skulks.
As I said, they are not too effective IMHO, especially the OCs are quite vulnerable to determined attacks. They serve their purpose. Not more. Turrets don't fend off an Onos onslought themselves. Thats the defenders job.
Its just too easy to do so right now.
Sure. Thats compeltely reasonable. Still its a part of the game to fortify positions and if it is just to defend the phasegate from skulks.
As I said, they are not too effective IMHO, especially the OCs are quite vulnerable to determined attacks. They serve their purpose. Not more. Turrets don't fend off an Onos onslought themselves. Thats the defenders job.
Its just too easy to do so right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it takes an onos to kill turrets then the turrets are too strong by RTS standards because onos are top teir, imagine how crappy starcraft would be if it took battle cruisiers to kill your basic defense in that game
Or imagine warcraft 3 if it took Tauren to kill a tower, for gods sake the game would suck terribly if it was like that
I think turrets are too strong in the wrong area's and too weak in others. Turrets are too hard to use because they are such an investment, but they are really lame when in numbers because they are so strong.
How this hasn't been fixed yet is beyond me... I'd say like at least 70-80% of games I play are just turret farm to wait to lose/win. BORING AS HELL.
Edit: Yea the only way to even have a chance at killing these farms + PGs is getting an onos. The only reason they can do it is because they do 2x damage to structures and limit the amount of marines that can come through... However by the time you get an Onos the game is already over. And even that doesn't work all the time.. half the time you'll lose the onos.
Maybe make the turrets cost 5 res, do 1-3 damage, and build quickly, but there is a limit of like 5-8 per room (like chambers) or per TF. That way the only thing they could effectively stop are skulks. I would also maybe suggest reducing the amount of health on PGs... or giving fades 1.5 or 2x damage to structures.
Then you can circle around a turret and bite it down without taking much damage, like in 1.0x
example: no upgrades - 5 damage
Weapons 1 - 8 damage
Weapons 2 - 10 damage
Weapons 3 - 13 damage
Values are welcome to be tweaked of course, I just thought them up in like 10 seconds.
I know they already do change with each weapons level, but make the damage less at the start, and alot more when they're upgraded.
You could have a mass of no to low upgraded turrets, or you could have a few strong ones.
Turrets health could even be tweaked by the armor upgrades. This would allow skulks to take out turret farms early game, because the marines are using all the res for turrets and not upgrades. On the other side of the fence, if the marines already have weapons 2-3 and you're at one hive, you've lost anyway, so I don't see any harm.
edit: Or, you could have a whole separate tech tree just for turrets. The turrents could have mechanical armor/damage upgrades, completely separate from the marine's upgrades.
example: no upgrades - 5 damage
Weapons 1 - 8 damage
Weapons 2 - 10 damage
Weapons 3 - 13 damage
Values are welcome to be tweaked of course, I just thought them up in like 10 seconds.
I know they already do change with each weapons level, but make the damage less at the start, and alot more when they're upgraded.
You could have a mass of no to low upgraded turrets, or you could have a few strong ones.
Turrets health could even be tweaked by the armor upgrades. This would allow skulks to take out turret farms early game, because the marines are using all the res for turrets and not upgrades. On the other side of the fence, if the marines already have weapons 2-3 and you're at one hive, you've lost anyway, so I don't see any harm.
edit: Or, you could have a whole separate tech tree just for turrets. The turrents could have mechanical armor/damage upgrades, completely separate from the marine's upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Urgh Weapon upgrades in ns beta 5 will up the dmg or turrets...didn't you know that.
In my opinion I think the Ocs are much less efficient, I know they are suppsoed to be, but it makes me wonder most times if its worth to drop that OC or make a DC.
example: no upgrades - 5 damage
Weapons 1 - 8 damage
Weapons 2 - 10 damage
Weapons 3 - 13 damage
Values are welcome to be tweaked of course, I just thought them up in like 10 seconds.
<b>I know they already do change with each weapons level, but make the damage less at the start, and alot more when they're upgraded.</b>
You could have a mass of no to low upgraded turrets, or you could have a few strong ones.
Turrets health could even be tweaked by the armor upgrades. This would allow skulks to take out turret farms early game, because the marines are using all the res for turrets and not upgrades. On the other side of the fence, if the marines already have weapons 2-3 and you're at one hive, you've lost anyway, so I don't see any harm.
<b>edit: Or, you could have a whole separate tech tree just for turrets. The turrents could have mechanical armor/damage upgrades, completely separate from the marine's upgrades.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Urgh Weapon upgrades in ns beta 5 will up the dmg or turrets...didn't you know that.
In my opinion I think the Ocs are much less efficient, I know they are suppsoed to be, but it makes me wonder most times if its worth to drop that OC or make a DC. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my post. I said I know they change the damage, but <i>make it to where turrets to barely any damage at no weapon upgrades, BUT significantly upgrade the damage when weapons is upgraded.</i>
Better yet: add a *gasp, not more strategy!* <b>whole new tech tree just for turrets.</b> Yes, the means turrets won't be effected by marine upgrades, but instead mechanical upgrades. So, turrets could start off doing little damage, and with each mechanical upgrade, they could deal more and more damage. It could solve the "turrets should do more/less damage" battle.
example: no upgrades - 5 damage
Weapons 1 - 8 damage
Weapons 2 - 10 damage
Weapons 3 - 13 damage
Values are welcome to be tweaked of course, I just thought them up in like 10 seconds.
<b>I know they already do change with each weapons level, but make the damage less at the start, and alot more when they're upgraded.</b>
You could have a mass of no to low upgraded turrets, or you could have a few strong ones.
Turrets health could even be tweaked by the armor upgrades. This would allow skulks to take out turret farms early game, because the marines are using all the res for turrets and not upgrades. On the other side of the fence, if the marines already have weapons 2-3 and you're at one hive, you've lost anyway, so I don't see any harm.
<b>edit: Or, you could have a whole separate tech tree just for turrets. The turrents could have mechanical armor/damage upgrades, completely separate from the marine's upgrades.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Urgh Weapon upgrades in ns beta 5 will up the dmg or turrets...didn't you know that.
In my opinion I think the Ocs are much less efficient, I know they are suppsoed to be, but it makes me wonder most times if its worth to drop that OC or make a DC. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my post. I said I know they change the damage, but <i>make it to where turrets to barely any damage at no weapon upgrades, BUT significantly upgrade the damage when weapons is upgraded.</i>
Better yet: add a *gasp, not more strategy!* <b>whole new tech tree just for turrets.</b> Yes, the means turrets won't be effected by marine upgrades, but instead mechanical upgrades. So, turrets could start off doing little damage, and with each mechanical upgrade, they could deal more and more damage. It could solve the "turrets should do more/less damage" battle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, upgrades that revolve around a static defense strategy?
Count me out of your game, please!
That way you can have some more strategy, if you build skulk turrets then fades can come and demolish the defenses with ease and onos can run in without even getting scratched. Fade killing ones wont kill the onos too much before it demolishes at least 4 turrest in one run and the heavy onos cannon can demolish a onos in 4 shots and a fade in 2 if it decides to stand still for that long but if you blink you and easily take it down.
First I think electricity needs to lose its function as a static defense; the old energy-damage suggestion works, and preferably a removal of the ability to cover other structures as well(maybe only zap an alien that attacks the structure?). Then turrets should be rebalanced as a lightweight early/mid game defense that isn't capable of holding down an area without marine backup. Make TFs cheaper and siege upgrade more expensive(or maybe lower node HP and allow them to support 2-3 turrets in a smaller radius?), and give Fades protection against turrets like Onoses have. Just some basic ideas.