Time Travel

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  • [WHO]Them[WHO]Them You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Aug 25 2004, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Aug 25 2004, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If free will is a myth, then every decision must occur due to the sum of events leading up to that decision. However, it then must be assumed that it is possible to predict the outcome of such a decision if the preceding events are known. Knowing these preceding events, it must be possible to theorize what decisions will be made in the future. With the knowledge of what decisions will be made in the future would it then be possible to alter that decision?

    Or would you have to take into account that your knowledge of the future decision is a factor in your decision to alter your future decision and thus it isn't really a decision but the end result of an equation that relies on the fact that you have knowledge of your future decisions? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's literally impossible to have a machine that can take into account every nanoparticle in the universe and calculate a decision from that, because the machine itself is part of the universe.

    But if such a machine popped out of the nethervoid, then yes, it's predictions would be a factor in your destiny.


    I think that you understand what I'm saying, but for the rest. I'm not saying you can't make decisions, but that your decisions are indeed a precise sum of your past experiences and your current chemical balances. It's still cool though, you still make these decisions, but you were always supposed to.
  • TheWizardTheWizard Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10553Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-[WHO]Them+Aug 25 2004, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Aug 25 2004, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    It's literally impossible to have a machine that can take into account every nanoparticle in the universe and calculate a decision from that, because the machine itself is part of the universe.

    But if such a machine popped out of the nethervoid, then yes, it's predictions would be a factor in your destiny.


    I think that you understand what I'm saying, but for the rest. I'm not saying you can't make decisions, but that your decisions are indeed a precise sum of your past experiences and your current chemical balances. It's still cool though, you still make these decisions, but you were always supposed to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Have a cookie

    <img src='http://thematrix101.com/media/still/photo-rev_oraclekitchen.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />


    (ok ok its late, I should go to bed.)
  • panda_de_malheureuxpanda_de_malheureux Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24775Members
    Well, if you think about it, the lightyear long stick is just a linear collection of particles that attract and repel each other. If you push one side, the first particle will be displaced causing a longitudal wave (one particle pushing another, pushing another and so on). Seeing as light is the fastest wave there is, it wouldn't "time travel".
  • RionRion Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7752Members
    edited August 2004
    My existance of time has made me spend an hour and a half reading this thread.. good reads.
  • InfinityInfinity And beyond&#33; Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 50Members
    My existence doesnt really care about time travel, as if it was possible, i would seriously go back to the middle ages and own them with a minigun... and a really good armor <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • [WHO]Them[WHO]Them You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Infinity+Aug 30 2004, 01:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infinity @ Aug 30 2004, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My existence doesnt really care about time travel, as if it was possible, i would seriously go back to the middle ages and own them with a minigun... and a really good armor <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That would get old, especially when your machine broke and you had to start making your own bullets.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    "We cannot do what we cannot perceive"


    -Me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    That reminds me of the wacky history manipulations in the last Blackadder episode...
    -Here's the poem written by the hand of Shakespear !
    -Who ? Oh wait , the inventor of the ballpoint pen !
  • crazycatcrazycat Join Date: 2004-08-27 Member: 30950Members
    cats feelings-

    time is just something that we made up, its not an illusion but a unit of measurement that only holds true to us...
    Because the universe keeps on collapsing and expanding there really cant be time, because time continues on forever, but if we're all gone and nobodys there to record it then it doent exist any longer now does it?

    but thats not to say that time is useless, it helps us with alot of stuff, everyday life, farming etc etc...

    as far as time travel, i dont believe that time travel is possible, but i do believe that you can see the past, just go faster than the speed of light and turn around, you may need a magnetfying glass or telescope but in theory (and its a pretty valid theory) you should be able to see the past!

    hows this work you ask? its rather simple, everything that you see is just a reflection of something that the light bounced off of, so if you manage to catch up with the light that bounced off the earth millions of years ago you can see the first stages of life on earth, in theory that is

    the only problem with this is achieving a speed faster than light, which some think is impossible because light is the smallest form of matter, light energy is the simplest thing around...

    however if a laser can go a faster speed than regular light it should be possible, as long as you can break down into a laser and re materialize back into your old form that is...



    it isnt time travel but its close enough, we could learn alot if we could pull this off, though being able to travel back in time like some others have suggested would be alot more fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • Jim_has_SkillzJim_has_Skillz Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12475Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-crazycat+Aug 30 2004, 12:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazycat @ Aug 30 2004, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cats feelings-

    time is just something that we made up, its not an illusion but a unit of measurement that only holds true to us...
    Because the universe keeps on collapsing and expanding there really cant be time, because time continues on forever, but if we're all gone and nobodys there to record it then it doent exist any longer now does it?

    but thats not to say that time is useless, it helps us with alot of stuff, everyday life, farming etc etc...

    as far as time travel, i dont believe that time travel is possible, but i do believe that you can see the past, just go faster than the speed of light and turn around, you may need a magnetfying glass or telescope but in theory (and its a pretty valid theory) you should be able to see the past!

    hows this work you ask? its rather simple, everything that you see is just a reflection of something that the light bounced off of, so if you manage to catch up with the light that bounced off the earth millions of years ago you can see the first stages of life on earth, in theory that is

    the only problem with this is achieving a speed faster than light, which some think is impossible because light is the smallest form of matter, light energy is the simplest thing around...

    however if a laser can go a faster speed than regular light it should be possible, as long as you can break down into a laser and re materialize back into your old form that is...



    it isnt time travel but its close enough, we could learn alot if we could pull this off, though being able to travel back in time like some others have suggested would be alot more fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    cat is right along with Them. Time is an unnatural substance. It was created by man to help explain things that are natural.

    Therefore, time travel isn't possible because time didn't exist until humans created it.
  • [WHO]Them[WHO]Them You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
    That's not exactly what I said, but close. I'm just saying that time is a concept that can be measured, the same as length.

    Length still existed before humans, it's just that the universe doesn't care. Time has existed in the exact same fashion, always there, but the universe doesn't care.




    And to crazycat, that's no more time-travelling than watching old home movies on a tv while sitting hundreds of miles away with intermittent fog clouds in your way. You know that something's happening but you'll be damned if you can make any of it out.
  • Jim_has_SkillzJim_has_Skillz Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12475Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-[WHO]Them+Aug 30 2004, 01:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Aug 30 2004, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's not exactly what I said, but close. I'm just saying that time is a concept that can be measured, the same as length.

    Length still existed before humans, it's just that the universe doesn't care. Time has existed in the exact same fashion, always there, but the universe doesn't care.




    And to crazycat, that's no more time-travelling than watching old home movies on a tv while sitting hundreds of miles away with intermittent fog clouds in your way. You know that something's happening but you'll be damned if you can make any of it out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    nature invented the metric system?
  • BlueNovemberBlueNovember hax Join Date: 2003-02-28 Member: 14137Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Aug 25 2004, 02:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Aug 25 2004, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If free will is a myth, then every decision must occur due to the sum of events leading up to that decision. However, it then must be assumed that it is possible to predict the outcome of such a decision if the preceding events are known. Knowing these preceding events, it must be possible to theorize what decisions will be made in the future. With the knowledge of what decisions will be made in the future would it then be possible to alter that decision?

    Or would you have to take into account that your knowledge of the future decision is a factor in your decision to alter your future decision and thus it isn't really a decision but the end result of an equation that relies on the fact that you have knowledge of your future decisions? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Your second assumption is far closer to what I think would be the case, should this be possible, which it isnt. Simple solution is Heizenburg Uncertainty Principle.

    (Google ftw).
    --

    Jim has Skillz, lols. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    ---

    Cat,
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    the only problem with this is achieving a speed faster than light, which some think is impossible because light is the smallest form of matter, light energy is the simplest thing around...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Isnt the mass of a neutrino is less than the mass of a photon? The particle/wave like properties of light make the annalysis invalid anyway.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    however if a laser can go a faster speed than regular light ...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It cant

    --

    To the people saying Time Travel is not possible.
    =================================
    Firstly, let's establish the basics. As you travel very near to the speed of light © time slows down until at C time stops. (Einstein.) Now, how can you go faster if time has stopped? The answer involves a complex process called quantum tunneling. (It's 2 am, god no...)

    Anyway, once the velocity becomes greater than C time moves backwards. We have entered into the realms of negative time, ie travelling into the past.
    --

    To the people confused/discussing what time *is*
    ================================
    Eintstein roved that space and time are two aspects of the same thing and that matter and energy are also two aspects of the same thing. The latter of these proofs we all know as E=mc^2. Google would be the best source for further info.

    HTH.
  • crazycatcrazycat Join Date: 2004-08-27 Member: 30950Members
    edited August 2004
    <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> damn, i was really hoping that concentrated light would move faster, but apperantly not <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    But That doesnt mean that its not impossible to achieve speeds faster than it, you gave one way, and in the universe that is as infinite as our own theres got to be another, or a couple more for that matter...

    as far as the image being blurry after going so far away, your probably right, i dont think that anyone could compensate for the distortion due to gravity fields...


    {edit} i was just wondering, whats einstein's idea of travel?
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    Go back to the physics textbooks mate. Light is unbreakable.

    The faster you go the harder you have to push against the mass of the spacecraft. The closer you get to C the more massive the spacecraft becomes, requiring more and more energy to push it along.

    Hitting the speed of light is in itself an impossiblity since you'd need all the energy in the universe to do it. To go faster, would require more energy then the universe itself posesses.

    So, unless you can violate thermodynamics AND relativity, I seriously doubt you can break light, let alone exceed it.

    Quantum micro tunneling is different. It simply uses probability.

    Difficult to explain, but uh.

    Well, lets say that there are chances that I can be everywhere and anywhere. Right now the place with the greatest probability of my being in that point is right here in front of the computer screen. There is a slight chance that I can be 1 meter away to my left, and another slight chance that I could be in rome (albeit a small one).

    For objects of human size, the chance is so infinitesmally small that it's doubtful that someone has EVER dissapeared and reappeared in another place.

    But particles can appear and dissappear from certain locations.

    I dont understand precisely how it works apart that it uses probability. I'd go into more depth but I simply have no time to do an in depth study, still, heres a link to some interesting stuff on the phenomenon.

    <a href='http://www.comcity.com/distance-time/The%20Speed%20of%20Quantum%20tunneling.html' target='_blank'>http://www.comcity.com/distance-time/The%2...0tunneling.html</a>
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    edited August 2004
    I heard about that Cronos. It's cool stuff!
    Quantum mechanics basically says it is possible to vanish out of thin air and appear somewhere else.

    They actually made an atom vanish and reappear in a room close by. The first teleportation! Don't ask me how it worked, but I know they relied on this quantum mechanics to do it. They say it will be a long ways before they can do molecules, and even longer while before they can transport objects of any substantial size, so don't expect human teleportation anytime soon.

    Anyway, back to the topic. Cronos you are right about what you said as well. One thing that escapes me though, is if you and your buddy are both in spaceships heading the speed of light in opposite directions, the difference in speed will increase by only the speed of light (and not twice the speed of light). Likewise, if the two ships are heading towards each other at the speed of light, the rate of closure inbetween the distances is the speed of light, not the speed of light * 2.

    Can someone explain that one to me?
  • crazycatcrazycat Join Date: 2004-08-27 Member: 30950Members
    i never actually hit the physics text books, i didnt need to, not for school anyways, though i do find some physics to be quite interesting i didnt think the effort needed would pay off...

    id have to disagree that it'd take almost all the energy of the universe to produce those speeds, think about it, lights created everyday and it travels at those speeds, just produce something that can move more freely than light, or break something down into an unstable form of light (this isnt too likely at all, just random ideas that pop into my head) which could change from energy to matter after the desired travel distance...

    i do find it highly improbably that "we" will ever find a way to achieve these things but i think that with infinite knowledge we could do it... all we need to learn is everything.... and thats going to be hard to do because most find that the more you know the less you know...

    nothings definite, nothing, but that doesnt mean we should stop trying, just that we should accept that even the most reasonable and well known theories might not be as valid as we think they are... maybe E doesnt = mc2
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    Do some research.

    1. Objects have mass

    2. Mass takes energy to move

    3. Relativity has been experimentally proven. Time dilates as one approaches the speed of light and has been observed using atomic clocks on jet airliners and comparing with the ground. A slight increase in mass has also been observed on high speed flights.

    Thus, until proof can be show that relativity is wrong, we will presume that it is correct.

    Now.

    As one speeds up, this nice little thing called INERTIA becomes apparent. This is true for all objects regardless of gravity. Objects dont like to move and it takes energy to get them moving. In a frictionless environment it doesnt take as much energy as it does on earth because friction slows things down.

    However, if you wish to keep increasing your speed your going to have to put more and more energy to resist your inertia. At a certain point, you begin to increase your mass due to relativistic effects. The result is known as relativistic mass and is a byproduct of approaching the speed of light.

    Now, as your mass increases, so too does your inertia and thus the amount of energy required to make you go faster. This mass increase is exponential as one approaches the speed of light, meaning you have exponentially more inertia and require exponentially more energy.

    Now.

    The mass becomes INFINITE at the speed of light. The inertia becomes INFINITE at the speed of light. How much energy do you think it takes to push an INFINITE amount of mass about? The answer is an INFINITE amount of energy, but it's been proven that the universe contains nowhere near this amount of energy. Even if you converted every particle and gathered up every joule of energy and used it to push you to the speed of light you would never hit it, only come mind numbingly close to it. The universe has a finite amount of mass and thus a finite amount of energy. If it had infinite energy then we'd still be cooking in a proton/electron soup, if not a quark/lepton soup.

    Let me stress this. THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS UNBREAKABLE. <b>UNBREAKABLE</b>.

    It is physically impossible to accelerate to or beyond the speed of light. It's no more possible then creating or destroying energy or of creating a perpetual motion machine, or escaping from the event horizon of a black hole and anyone that claims to have done it is either an idiot or completely misguided/uninformed.

    There are concessions for going AROUND the speed of light via wormholes, quantum tunneling and the like. But the speed of light is quite simply unbreakable.

    Also, for infinite knowledge, see the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Issac Asimovs "The Last Question".

    Do a little research, New Scientist is an excellent source as they describe things fairly easily and with diagrams to assist with understanding.

    Knowledge is far more potent then power.
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    Or so the theories go.

    We cannot fathom how things work at such speeds, because we have not even experienced anything within 1/1,000,000th of that speed.

    Light has been proven to go slower through water or air. Can we go faster than that speed? I believe we can. This means we have broken the speed of light.

    "Well that's not the true speed of light."

    I know that, and we are far from being able to determine if such a thing were possible. You're presuming E=mc^2 (which is still a theory I remind you). Yes, it was formed by Einstein, but he has been known to get certain things wrong from time to time. If that is the case, the speed of light is no bound.

    Granted, perhaps it is marginally impossible to achieve those speeds, but it won't be because of some relative bound that keeps all things from breaking it. I believe that if that were true, we would not be able to exceed the speed of light in any conditions (through water or through a vacuum), but I have to say I think it is perfectly possible.
  • 2_of_Eight2_of_Eight Join Date: 2003-08-20 Member: 20016Members
    Just some thinking that I did:
    Time is a constant, always passing. Maybe a reason for time passing is the movement of Earth (and the solar system... and our galaxy...) in the universe? That movemenet creates the passing of the time. If that movement were to stop, we would go back in time, or slow down its passage?
    No facts, no proof. It's just my mind thinking <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • HawkeyeHawkeye Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
    2 of 8, there is a partial truth in that fact. If the earth went backwards, we would go back in time, but not because time depends on he orbit of the earth, but because the orbit of the earth depends on time.

    Time is not constant. The way our brains work, we interpret time to be moving at a constant rate. Supposing we moved into a part of the galaxy where time flowed at a slower rate, we would still perceive things at the same rate, though physics would change. Gravity would be stronger and things would move faster, the day would go by faster, though we ourselves would perceive time at the same rate, since time flows slower.

    Everything moves at a rate distance / time. If time is shortened, then the rate increases. Though it looks like the distance per unit time increases, it is in fact the time taht is shortened. If you look at quantum mechanics, particles "time travel." This could be explained by making positive and negative time movements (like it were only an axis on a graph).

    The only reason why time looks constant is because it is perceived that way.
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    edited September 2004
    Nope. Time is meshed with space, if there were no objects at all in the universe then time would still go on as would space, though it all comes back to the tree in the forest dillemma.

    Case in point; There is a substance called a bose-einstein condensate (I truly hope I remembered correctly there) that slows light down to 1 meter per second or so. A kind of communication can be used doing that because of rotation I dont exactly remember the theory, but breaking the speed of light in a vacuum IS impossible.

    The Speed of Light is 300,000 Km/s in a vacuum. Air fractionally slows it down, liquids more so, and bose-einstein condensates drag it to a screeching halt. Just because we can slow light down does not mean that we can exceed the universal speed limit.

    Also, they did a computer simulation where they slowed light down and had a camera move at a speed greater then light. For one thing, you cant see objects behind you, but you can see the back of objects ahead of you.

    So, if you were going down the street at twice the speed of light (presuming the SOL to be 1 m/s of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) then you would see the backyards of those houses. This is because you are catching up to the light reflected from that house.

    I wish I could give sources but it's from memory of documentaries that I've scrabbled together in my brain. Google may be of assistance.

    {Edit}

    Note, this was before your post Hawkeye, so I'm not disagreeing with you at the start of the post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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